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post #1921 of 1943 Old 06-18-2019, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by NashGuy View Post
To the extent that cable providers stay in that business, they'll incorporate whatever 4K HDR content that the channels provide into their own UIs somehow. Comcast is already doing this on X1. Altice is doing this with AlticeOne. DirecTV and DISH satellite are doing it the only way that they possibly can, really, which is via dedicated linear "4K events" channels that carry stuff from multiple originating sources.
They could do both that and a TV anywhere app.

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At some point, I expect we'll see DirecTV roll out a dedicated "HBO 4K" or "HBO Max 4K" linear channel, given that they have the satellite capacity for it and they own HBO. But outside of that specific instance, I'm not sure if we'll ever see 4K content from HBO distributed through linear channels as AT&T wants to transition HBO to an on-demand streaming service competing directly against Netflix.
That all makes sense. HBO is in trouble now that GoT is over, Veep ended, VICE is ending, their documentaries have gone downhill, etc. They're putting a lot of weight on John Oliver's shoulders.
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post #1922 of 1943 Old 06-19-2019, 04:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
I didn't say it at the time, but I'm wondering if the low hardware price point suggests a subscription model for the software. Or a stripped-down version included, with full-functioning versions costing extra, along with updated versions as 3.0 rolls out and new features are factored in. Doesn't make economic sense to sell the bundle for $75, then update it umpteen times over 5 years or so.
DVB-T2 USB tuners are about the same price. $56 for this one that I use for my experiments.


http://www.hauppauge.com/pages/webst...lohd_euro.html


I'll guess the Windows app isn't too sophisticated. I've never used it since I'm Linux based.


Here's what the insides look like (this is for the previous generation stick although I'm told the components are the same).


http://blog.palosaari.fi/2014/04/nak...tick-292e.html

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post #1923 of 1943 Old 06-19-2019, 06:36 AM
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Here's what the insides look like (this is for the previous generation stick although I'm told the components are the same).
Nice flashback! I still have the US version of the PCTV from eons ago. Believe that was 80 bucks or so when it first rolled out. Of course, I HAD to have one. Now, I have 4 or 5 ATSC/QAM sticks. Hauppauge's latest dual-tuner is the one I travel with. Gotta say, I was rather impressed using it in the truck. Shooting down the interstate, it was glitch-free for many miles. That said, I WAS in rural Oklahoma where it's rather flat.

This is one of the things I'm most looking forward to, assuming enough stations light up to make a road trip fun. And assuming they haven't taken away my license by the time they do.
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post #1924 of 1943 Old 06-19-2019, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
They could do both that and a TV anywhere app.



That all makes sense. HBO is in trouble now that GoT is over, Veep ended, VICE is ending, their documentaries have gone downhill, etc. They're putting a lot of weight on John Oliver's shoulders.
Bill Maher, Axios, and more stuff coming. They are not in trouble.

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post #1925 of 1943 Old 06-19-2019, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by NashGuy View Post
I do believe that being able to boast that you have 4K HDR is one -- just one -- differentiating factor for a subscription streaming service. Netflix has it, Amazon Prime Video has it. Disney+ has announced that they will have it and I bet you $20 that Apple TV+ will have it (using Dolby Vision, no less). It's gradually becoming table stakes. I'll be shocked if HBO Max (or whatever the forthcoming WarnerMedia service is called) doesn't include 4K HDR by the time it exits beta and fully launches in early 2020. Showtime (which will probably acquire and fold in Starz in 2020) will follow suit; their sister service CBS All Access will probably do so at the same time. At some point in the coming year I expect Hulu to jump on board the 4K HDR train as well, now that Disney is fully in charge and they don't have multiple chefs in the kitchen.
I think lower prices make more impact with streaming, people would rather have discounts than 4K.

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post #1926 of 1943 Old 06-19-2019, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
I would say it's been like that for many years. For the past eight years of so I've needed to subscribe to multiple streaming services to get the content I want. That will never change.

Sent from my Galaxy S10
I agree.

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post #1927 of 1943 Old 06-20-2019, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by dr1394 View Post
DVB-T2 USB tuners are about the same price. $56 for this one that I use for my experiments.


http://www.hauppauge.com/pages/webst...lohd_euro.html


I'll guess the Windows app isn't too sophisticated. I've never used it since I'm Linux based.


Here's what the insides look like (this is for the previous generation stick although I'm told the components are the same).


http://blog.palosaari.fi/2014/04/nak...tick-292e.html
Yep - though you can get cheaper USB DVB-T2 tuners. The Xbox DVB-T2 tuners have been going for around GBP £5 each at times recently (Though I guess they are burning through unsold stock - and there is a market now there is a Linux driver.) I've also seen a number of other Linux supported sticks going for ~GBP £20-25 recently. (UK OTA TV has no DRM on the video, just some proprietary Huffman compression on the EPG data for the HD channels. Which has all been reverse engineered in Open Source tuner software)
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post #1928 of 1943 Old 06-22-2019, 11:32 AM
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Bill Maher, Axios, and more stuff coming. They are not in trouble.
True. I forgot about Bill Maher, as I listen to the podcast which is free (even though I have HBO, I just don't have time to sit there and watch him).
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post #1929 of 1943 Old 07-03-2019, 07:22 AM
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Just a dumb question, please forgive if this was discussed in the previous 65 pages. The Internet streaming channels have a long head start, what else prevents a broadcaster from standing up similar and competing PAY OTA channels on ATSC 3.0? Surely a go-getter outfit like Sinclair has a plan to monetize their tired old dogs into racehorses.
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post #1930 of 1943 Old 07-03-2019, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Yo296 View Post
Just a dumb question, please forgive if this was discussed in the previous 65 pages. The Internet streaming channels have a long head start, what else prevents a broadcaster from standing up similar and competing PAY OTA channels on ATSC 3.0? Surely a go-getter outfit like Sinclair has a plan to monetize their tired old dogs into racehorses.
In a nutshell, nothing stops them. They can do that NOW with ATSC 1.0 ..and have, though it didn't go over terribly well.

Sinclair's monetization plan comes from targeted advertising and mobile viewing. I'm afraid you'll have to sift through the "previous 65 pages" for details on that as it's laborious to retype it all.

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post #1931 of 1943 Old 07-03-2019, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Yo296 View Post
Just a dumb question, please forgive if this was discussed in the previous 65 pages. The Internet streaming channels have a long head start, what else prevents a broadcaster from standing up similar and competing PAY OTA channels on ATSC 3.0? Surely a go-getter outfit like Sinclair has a plan to monetize their tired old dogs into racehorses.
Ask yourself the question: What competitive advantages would live pay TV channels on ATSC 3.0 have over pay TV services distributed via the internet? And what disadvantages?

The competitive advantages that ATSC 3.0 subscription channels would have are that they could reach people who do not have broadband internet service but who do get OTA TV reception via antenna. (That's a pretty small sliver of the population and probably a group that, on average, is less affluent than the average American, which isn't great.)

Another advantage is that, even among those who do have broadband service, watching more video via OTA (free or pay channels) means less viewing via the internet, and therefore less chance of exceeding broadband data caps that could result in additional fees.

And that's really about all I can think of for the advantages of pay TV on ATSC 3.0.

As far as disadvantages relative to internet pay TV, they're major. When you subscribe to pay TV online, it offers on-demand access to content, not just a live stream like OTA TV where you must watch a certain thing at a certain time. Internet services may not even have a live stream but, if they do, they also have a cloud DVR that lets the viewer record segments for later viewing, or they simply just make all of the content available on-demand in the first place, so there's no need for a cloud DVR.

Also, the vast majority of Americans already have some form of broadband access, either home or mobile/cellular, and they already have devices that they use for streaming online video. But for ATSC 3.0 (free or pay channels), they'll need to buy a new tuner and integrate it into their existing system. Educating the public on ATSC 3.0 and then getting them to acquire the necessary hardware and figure out how to use it will be a battle that broadcasters face and it's one that's already pretty much won by competitors in the world of online streaming TV.

Lastly, lots of American already having paying relationships -- credit cards on file -- with the major distributors of online services (whether TV or music): Apple, Google, Amazon, Roku, Netflix, Hulu. It's pretty easy to activate a new pay TV subscription online because you're probably just adding it to an existing billing account that's already in place. But if Sinclair begins distributing pay TV channels via ATSC 3.0, how will consumers sign up and pay? I imagine that they will partner with PayPal but that's not quite as easy as the aforementioned examples, plus not everyone has a PayPal account. And will you be able to enter your PayPal info on the TV screen and start the subscription through a return path back to the Sinclair station without having an internet connection? Because if I have internet in my home, why am I subscribing to this channel via OTA again, as opposed to just getting it through a streaming service?
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post #1932 of 1943 Old 07-03-2019, 10:50 AM
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Thanks NashGuy, yes it will depend on the relative commercial merits and that is what you have answered. I forgot about on-demand, and was further concerned that some lurking superiority of OTA might pull viewers that way. Evidently not, so OTA would stay where it is, plus data collection and adserving.
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post #1933 of 1943 Old 07-03-2019, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
In a nutshell, nothing stops them. They can do that NOW with ATSC 1.0 ..and have, though it didn't go over terribly well.

Sinclair's monetization plan comes from targeted advertising and mobile viewing. I'm afraid you'll have to sift through the "previous 65 pages" for details on that as it's laborious to retype it all.
Thanks DrDon, as long as this is the right place to look I can stand it!
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post #1934 of 1943 Old 07-04-2019, 05:28 AM
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I know nothing, but since my mind is uncluttered with actual knowledge, here's my ATSC 3.0 prediction.


In the end, ATSC 3.0 will do very little except allow more broadcasts channels for each TV frequency and that will open up entire frequencies for broadcasters to sell for big bucks.
I can see Indianapolis shrinking to one tower/frequency. Of course the picture quality will not be great, but who cares? There's short term money to be made by selling a valuable asset.


Look at the obscene money Trinity Broadcasting made selling their frequencies around the nation..
(Chicago Tribune) "The Chicago-area auction total includes more than $304 million for WWTO-Ch. 35 in LaSalle County. WWTO is owned by California-based Trinity Broadcasting Network, which bills itself as the largest Christian TV network in the world."
I'm sure God is happy with that sale!

Things are moving so fast and 3.0 is moving so slow.

Like I said, my mind is uncluttered with any knowledge of the situation, but that's my best guess!
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post #1935 of 1943 Old 07-04-2019, 12:12 PM
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My initial prognostication stands because I think two guys who DO know what's going on have spoken.
Dr. Don...."A standalone streaming option also defeats the use of individual games to promote ATSC 3.0. Why buy an ATSC 3.0 tuner and an antenna if you can just pull up the game on your Roku? No muss, no fuss."
NashGuy...."If I only care about seeing a few select games here and there, I'm not sure I really see the Preds as a motivating factor to buy an ATSC 3.0 tuner."

I love my SiliconDust HDHomeRun, but every time they have an upgrade I have to go through a complicated dance to get everything working just right and playing nice with Kodi.

Bought a Roku for $30 bucks, plugged it in to my TV (well, actually my modulator) and it just works.

ATSC 3.0 is just going to be too much of a niche market to expect people to go through the tuner dance again. Just my uninformed opinion!
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post #1936 of 1943 Old 07-12-2019, 05:52 AM
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When will the tv manufacturers start putting atsc 3.0 tuners in their tvs? Thanks for any info.
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post #1937 of 1943 Old 07-12-2019, 07:08 AM
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When will the tv manufacturers start putting atsc 3.0 tuners in their tvs? Thanks for any info.
Simple answer: when they feel it's worth it.

I think many of us expect to find something in the 2020 models, if only a few. There's still nothing to receive and no consensus on exactly all the things broadcasters plan to put into 3.0. The 2020 models are already in design phase and engineers still don't know what combination of hardware and software will be necessary for a good user experience in every market. Manufacturers want to minimize after-the-sale expenses, so putting in something that might require a ton of updates 2-3 years down the road isn't cost effective for them. Right now, there's not even a real-world way to test a prototype beyond simple tuning capabilities.

You can scroll upthread for all the various opinions on this and the reasoning behind them. My prediction follows the ATSC 1.0 rollout in that tuners will first appear as STBs with built-in coming once there's enough 3.0 stations for it to be a selling point. Selling a TV with a feature that doesn't work for every purchaser is a sure way to increase returns and dissatisfied customers.

Just my $.02
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post #1938 of 1943 Old 07-12-2019, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
You can scroll upthread for all the various opinions on this and the reasoning behind them. My prediction follows the ATSC 1.0 rollout in that tuners will first appear as STBs with built-in coming once there's enough 3.0 stations for it to be a selling point. Selling a TV with a feature that doesn't work for every purchaser is a sure way to increase returns and dissatisfied customers.

Just my $.02
Why would selling ATSC 3.0 tuners increase returns or have dissatisfied customers? It's just MORE functionality, they can still tune ATSC 1.0 or use anything plugged into them via HDMI...
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post #1939 of 1943 Old 07-12-2019, 03:29 PM
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Why would selling ATSC 3.0 tuners increase returns or have dissatisfied customers? It's just MORE functionality, they can still tune ATSC 1.0 or use anything plugged into them via HDMI...
Why spend more for a model that does 3.0 if you don't have access to 3.0 signals? Save your bucks and buy a regular Smart TV, then.

If you sell a product with an advertised feature and it fails to perform, you get returns and dissatisfied customers. Imagine a guy in Wichita pays more for an ATSC 3.0 television, gets it home, and there's no 4K Olympics. Nobody in Wichita has lit up 3.0 and NBC isn't doing the Olympics in 4k. He's gonna be upset and return the set. Smart TVs function for everyone in that most people who buy them have HSI and WiFi. Most people in America won't have access to ATSC 3.0 signals for years to come and those who do will only have a scant few stations available. Until 3.0 is ubiquitous, putting the hardware and software into a set is an expense that could have a negative impact on profits. And the public isn't clamoring for 3.0 at all.

Even if the retail price is the same or lower than this year's models, there's still the manufacturing expense to consider. A run of 5 million sets with an additional ATSC 3.0 cost of 5 bucks per set (likely more) is 25 million dollars. Even at $1 it's 5-million. Why spend that if only a few can use it and the odds of returns or expensive "updates" after the sale are high? They'll wait for more signal penetration is my prediction.

There is little incentive at the moment for manufacturers to spend millions to have 3.0 capability included. Especially when there are more "sellable" features they can add to justify higher prices or profit margins.
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post #1940 of 1943 Old 07-12-2019, 04:09 PM
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My prediction is that 5 or 10 years from now, those involved with 3.0, including Sinclair, will say they should have made the transition to 3.0 mandatory instead of voluntary.
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post #1941 of 1943 Old 07-13-2019, 07:51 PM
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If you sell a product with an advertised feature and it fails to perform, you get returns and dissatisfied customers.
I don't entirely disagree but in my case I'm delaying buying a new TV or HDHomeRun until it includes ATSC 3.0. We keep our TVs forever, still have an old CRT running through a CECB.

So set manufactures need to factor that in. Having said that while I'm an OTA fanboy one needs to be aware penetration is only about 20% in the US. Plus I'm sure the repack and rollout of ATSC 3.0 is causing a lot of folks to just give up because it it too complicated. How many sales will a set manufacture loose if they do not include ATSC 3.0, probably not all that many?
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post #1942 of 1943 Old Yesterday, 08:04 AM
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I don't entirely disagree but in my case I'm delaying buying a new TV or HDHomeRun until it includes ATSC 3.0. We keep our TVs forever, still have an old CRT running through a CECB.
You and me, both. But - trust me - we're in the minority. Ask anyone on the street what an HDHR is and they'll just stare. We're a niche market at best. That said, you WILL buy a new TV when one fails and that's what manufacturers are counting on. Or they'll put some gotta-have-it feature into their sets. Right now, 3.0 ain't "gotta have."

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So set manufactures need to factor that in. Having said that while I'm an OTA fanboy one needs to be aware penetration is only about 20% in the US.
I think you left out a decimal. If you're talking about 3.0 broadcasting, it's more like .20%

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How many sales will a set manufacture loose if they do not include ATSC 3.0, probably not all that many?
The answer is none. They'll sell roughly the same number of sets with or without 3.0 tuners, so why add to the manufacturing expense and cut profits? Plus, if they do it NOW, they're likely dealing with large after-the-sale expenses to push firmware and software updates to cover what broadcasters decide to do. That's a sure way to disappoint shareholders. Every update pulls down profits, so they very much want to minimize that.

Now, if we get to the point NBC is lit up on 3.0 on all of their O&Os and producing the Olympics in 4k or Fox does likewise with the NFL, then you might see the needle move a bit. BUT.. manufacturers ALREADY use sports to sell 4k sets... sports that aren't IN 4k. If you don't believe me, watch those Best Buy ads around the Super Bowl. "See the Big Game on a brand new 4k TV!!" It works.

When it comes to television features, you'll only lose sales if you're lacking a feature people want.. a feature that works everywhere. Trot out a TV that won't do Netflix and watch what happens. We can revisit this five years from now, but I still say 1080p and emergency alerts won't be enough to sell sets and have people fussing with antennas.
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post #1943 of 1943 Old Yesterday, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
You and me, both. But - trust me - we're in the minority. Ask anyone on the street what an HDHR is and they'll just stare. We're a niche market at best. That said, you WILL buy a new TV when one fails and that's what manufacturers are counting on. Or they'll put some gotta-have-it feature into their sets. Right now, 3.0 ain't "gotta have."



I think you left out a decimal. If you're talking about 3.0 broadcasting, it's more like .20%



The answer is none. They'll sell roughly the same number of sets with or without 3.0 tuners, so why add to the manufacturing expense and cut profits? Plus, if they do it NOW, they're likely dealing with large after-the-sale expenses to push firmware and software updates to cover what broadcasters decide to do. That's a sure way to disappoint shareholders. Every update pulls down profits, so they very much want to minimize that.

Now, if we get to the point NBC is lit up on 3.0 on all of their O&Os and producing the Olympics in 4k or Fox does likewise with the NFL, then you might see the needle move a bit. BUT.. manufacturers ALREADY use sports to sell 4k sets... sports that aren't IN 4k. If you don't believe me, watch those Best Buy ads around the Super Bowl. "See the Big Game on a brand new 4k TV!!" It works.

When it comes to television features, you'll only lose sales if you're lacking a feature people want.. a feature that works everywhere. Trot out a TV that won't do Netflix and watch what happens. We can revisit this five years from now, but I still say 1080p and emergency alerts won't be enough to sell sets and have people fussing with antennas.
I don't see the local chans giving us 3.0 in my area. We never even got 1080P and most chans are 480i in my area. Not sure i would even buy a outboard box for my 2017 Sony OLED to even see 3.0 if it ever came out.

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