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post #1951 of 2151 Old 07-17-2019, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
In which case, manufacturers will have to produce sets compatible with both, driving the per-set expenses up even more. Reminds me of my first AM Stereo radios, which had to be compatible with FOUR different transmission standards. Or HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray. What a mess.

In any case, it's easy to see the reasoning should set and STB makers decide to sit on the sidelines a little longer, kicking that adoption curve further down the road.
Hmm, I think it would be more like websites. As long as they use HTML and adhere to WC3 standards, their webpages should render correctly in all browsers that comply with the standards.

In this case, the standards are what's written into the ATSC 3.0 specs. And the tuners (and the software/firmware they come with) are analogous to web browsers. So as long as tuners support/conform to those 3.0 specs, they should allow different broadcasters to roll out different implementations of ATSC 3.0 for their own channels.

So Sinclair-owned stations might have UIs, features and controls that differ from those on Pearl-member stations. The Pearl consortium (of which Nexstar is a big backer) exists largely to come up with a standardized UI/UX approach for 3.0 for all their members (as well as help figure out the monetization options for 3.0, presumably including a targeted ad platform/exchange). Once you get outside of the members of Pearl, I think it's only tiny station groups, with the exception of Sinclair. Which is why I can imagine there being two different "flavors" of ATSC 3.0 -- Sinclair's and then one that everybody else uses (although I suppose it's possible that some stray small broadcasters not in Pearl might hitch their 3.0 wagon to Sinclair instead).

All that said, I do think we'll see at least a couple US-market TVs showcased at CES in Jan. 2021 with built-in 3.0 tuners. But external 3.0 tuners will be the bigger story. Wonder if we'll see any of those hit the market by late 2020 when ATSC 3.0 stations will supposedly be live across 40 markets?
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post #1952 of 2151 Old 07-17-2019, 10:10 AM
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That said, I think you're right on the basic point: even if it's not simple, it's all done by special-purpose chips that are mass-produced. Even 10 years ago a basic SD tuner only cost $40 or a bit more; nowadays you can get a better HD tuner with a basic PVR for the same price (plus the cost of a storage device).
Keep an eye on what pay TV providers do in the coming year or two. I predict we're going to see a lot more pay TV subscribers, especially those on AT&T's platforms, get ATSC 1.0 tuners from their provider, either for free, at-cost, or below-cost (i.e. partially subsidized by the pay TV provider). Whenever there are disputes with local broadcast stations, AT&T DirecTV is now sending out a free 1.0 tuner that can plug into most model DirecTV receivers, giving them free OTA TV that is integrated into their cable channel guide and which can be recorded to the DVR. DISH offers something similar.

DISH has taken it a step further with their AirTV, a box with dual ATSC 1.0 tuners that streams your locals on the home wifi network and integrates into the Sling TV streaming cable service. They're about to roll out an updated model, the AirTV 2. Plug a USB hard drive into the AirTV box and, bam, you've got a local OTA DVR. The local recordings show up right next to your cloud DVR recordings in Sling TV.

I betcha we'll see AT&T come out with something similar to the AirTV for use with their forthcoming new AT&T TV streaming cable service. While Sling TV is and probably always will be somewhat of a niche service aimed at budget-conscious cord-cutters, AT&T TV will be positioned as the company's new flagship cable TV service, aimed to supersede both DirecTV satellite and Uverse TV.

Will all their customers use those OTA tuners? No, but some will. And given how cheap 1.0 tuners are, AT&T, DISH and other MVPDs can afford to give them away or sell them for cheap. (And, aside from OTA tuners, AT&T is also donating to Locast, and auto-installing their app on all their STBs, giving their customers in local-blackout-affected markets an easy way to stream their otherwise-missing locals for free.) These moves will pay dividends for the MVPDs when it's time to renegotiate those carriage contracts with local broadcasters because it gives the MVPDs greater leverage. "Look, we're not afraid of a blackout. Lots of our customers have other ways to watch your stations for free on the STBs they already use."

The only MVPD I can think of who wouldn't embrace ATSC 1.0 tuners and Locast (if it survives the inevitable legal challenge) is Comcast, given that they own NBC and its largest local affiliates.

But why would AT&T and other MVPDs want to see ATSC 3.0 flourish? It could be locked down in ways that benefit the local stations. Meanwhile, ATSC 1.0 tuners are cheap and work well enough for their purposes.

For that matter, I don't really see why the major network owners -- Disney (ABC), Comcast (NBC) or CBS -- would really want to see ATSC 3.0 flourish, given that it might threaten their direct-to-consumer streaming services like Hulu and CBS All Access. And of course there's no good reason Apple or Google, the companies that most control our smartphone software, would want to support ATSC 3.0 in phones.

The only groups I *can* see for whom 3.0 would be economically beneficial are local broadcast station owners that aren't part of the major media corporations. In other words, Sinclair, Nexstar, Meredith, E. W. Scripps, etc. So basically, it's them against the world. Which side you gonna bet on?

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post #1953 of 2151 Old 07-17-2019, 06:09 PM
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[LIST=1][*]Every ATSC 3.0 tuner will include a built-in time-shifting function, implying that several GB of storage are also built in (the "local DVR" approach).
That would be trivial to do today with ATSC 1.0, and just as trivial with ATSC 3.0. For a while, they were giving 8GB and 16GB flash drives away like candy at conventions, the cost of flash storage is just so low. Yes, they are trying to squeeze every dollar out of TV prices, but they could just let the user plug a flash drive in to add storage.
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post #1954 of 2151 Old 07-17-2019, 08:10 PM
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That would be trivial to do today with ATSC 1.0, and just as trivial with ATSC 3.0. For a while, they were giving 8GB and 16GB flash drives away like candy at conventions, the cost of flash storage is just so low. Yes, they are trying to squeeze every dollar out of TV prices, but they could just let the user plug a flash drive in to add storage.
TVs running the Roku OS as their smart platform already allow you to attach a flash drive for storage, but doing so only unlocks trick play/pausing for live TV.
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post #1955 of 2151 Old 07-17-2019, 10:59 PM
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I do wonder when those converter boxes will begin to roll out over here. Looks like Korea has a few but they are tough to get and expensive...
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post #1956 of 2151 Old 07-18-2019, 09:45 AM
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...at the end of the day, no matter how much fancy-sounding technology it incorporates, ATSC 3.0 is still a broadcast - identical content is being sent to everyone at once. If what we really want is OTA streaming, we need to be looking at 5G instead of trying to force-fit streaming functionality into a broadcast model.
Yup. This. Broadcasters should really fight to keep the focus on broadcasting. If they don't they'll likely end up bemoaning the demise of broadcasting.
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post #1957 of 2151 Old 07-18-2019, 12:08 PM
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Yup. This. Broadcasters should really fight to keep the focus on broadcasting. If they don't they'll likely end up bemoaning the demise of broadcasting.
They haven't focused on broadcasting since the 50s. They focus on selling advertising. This isn't about finding new ways to draw viewers. This is about making more money using the viewers they have. 1080p... 4k.. not going to bring in additional eyeballs. But, being able to better target those eyeballs is the Holy Grail here. Now, they sell one commercial seen by everybody watching at that time, regardless of age, sex or income level. Split that up so I see a Lexus ad while my elderly neighbor sees Pat Boone with a walk-in tub, that's a gold mine. But, for it to work, they have to drive adoption. PQ can't do it (AVSForum enthusiasts notwithstanding). Bells and whistles will.
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post #1958 of 2151 Old 07-18-2019, 01:12 PM
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They haven't focused on broadcasting since the 50s. They focus on selling advertising. This isn't about finding new ways to draw viewers. This is about making more money using the viewers they have. 1080p... 4k.. not going to bring in additional eyeballs. But, being able to better target those eyeballs is the Holy Grail here. Now, they sell one commercial seen by everybody watching at that time, regardless of age, sex or income level. Split that up so I see a Lexus ad while my elderly neighbor sees Pat Boone with a walk-in tub, that's a gold mine. But, for it to work, they have to drive adoption. PQ can't do it (AVSForum enthusiasts notwithstanding). Bells and whistles will.
I’m constantly telling people about OTA & most can’t seem to believe that I get Hd video with 5.1 surround sound. They should concentrate on educating the public to forget the old days of rabbit ears & snowy video & move to the new digital age.
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post #1959 of 2151 Old 07-18-2019, 01:34 PM
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I’m constantly telling people about OTA & most can’t seem to believe that I get Hd video with 5.1 surround sound. They should concentrate on educating the public to forget the old days of rabbit ears & snowy video & move to the new digital age.
That's counterproductive. Currently, they get retransmission fees from MPVDs. "Educating" the public might spur more people to move from cable to OTA. Total viewership remains the same so ad revenue will as well, but retrans income goes down. For now, broadcasters WANT viewers to use cable or DSS. Or a streaming platform, from which they also get a cut. "My transmitter is a necessary evil" one GM always tells me.

When such time occurs where they can make up for that lost retrans revenue with targeted advertising, etc, then you might see a move to get people to ATSC 3.0. There has to be money in it for local stations in some form. Targeted advertising for some, cost savings (combining many local stations onto one signal) for others. Otherwise, why bother?

"Old days of rabbit ears?" Ya still need an antenna. Back then, bad signals caused snow. Now it's pixellation or no picture at all. Just because 3.0's is more resistant to multipath doesn't mean viewers won't have to fuss with aluminum to pick it up, especially the VHF stations. Yeah, yeah, I've heard about SFNs, but that won't be ubiquitous. Dallas, yeah. Ada, Oklahoma, nope.
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post #1960 of 2151 Old 07-18-2019, 03:04 PM
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That's counterproductive. Currently, they get retransmission fees from MPVDs. "Educating" the public might spur more people to move from cable to OTA. Total viewership remains the same so ad revenue will as well, but retrans income goes down. For now, broadcasters WANT viewers to use cable or DSS. Or a streaming platform, from which they also get a cut. "My transmitter is a necessary evil" one GM always tells me.
Exactly. They need to keep the idiot masses as idiotic as possible. I see comments on articles about CBS's retrans fight with AT&T about not wanting to use an antenna with references to it being an old, outdated technology. These people are idiots, as for most channels in most markets, AT&T and DirecTV take the OTA signal and compress it more.
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post #1961 of 2151 Old 07-18-2019, 03:14 PM
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They haven't focused on broadcasting since the 50s. They focus on selling advertising. This isn't about finding new ways to draw viewers. This is about making more money using the viewers they have. 1080p... 4k.. not going to bring in additional eyeballs. But, being able to better target those eyeballs is the Holy Grail here. Now, they sell one commercial seen by everybody watching at that time, regardless of age, sex or income level. Split that up so I see a Lexus ad while my elderly neighbor sees Pat Boone with a walk-in tub, that's a gold mine. But, for it to work, they have to drive adoption. PQ can't do it (AVSForum enthusiasts notwithstanding). Bells and whistles will.
Not quibbling with your analysis here but, in your opinion, what ARE the bells and whistles that you think will sell the public on adopting ATSC 3.0? If not better picture and sound, then what? Better emergency alerts? The ability to participate in live polls during The Voice using your TV remote? About the only other thing I can think of beyond that stuff is the ability to stream recent content (with unskippable targeted ads) on-demand inside the regular OTA TV UI (assuming that you've connected your 3.0 tuner to the internet). But will the networks give affiliates on-demand streaming access to much of their primetime content? (And if they do, just how much a cut of the target ad revenue will the locals get?) That kind of VOD access they usually reserve for paying customers who have their local affiliate as part of their cable TV package. Sure, the ABC, NBC, CBS and Fox apps all have some amount of free stuff for anybody to watch but not most of it. Only the lowly CW gives every Joe Blow free access to their last five eps without a cable login.
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post #1962 of 2151 Old 07-18-2019, 03:41 PM
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Not quibbling with your analysis here but, in your opinion, what ARE the bells and whistles that you think will sell the public on adopting ATSC 3.0? If not better picture and sound, then what? Better emergency alerts? The ability to participate in live polls during The Voice using your TV remote? About the only other thing I can think of beyond that stuff is the ability to stream recent content (with unskippable targeted ads) on-demand inside the regular OTA TV UI (assuming that you've connected your 3.0 tuner to the internet). But will the networks give affiliates on-demand streaming access to much of their primetime content? (And if they do, just how much a cut of the target ad revenue will the locals get?) That kind of VOD access they usually reserve for paying customers who have their local affiliate as part of their cable TV package. Sure, the ABC, NBC, CBS and Fox apps all have some amount of free stuff for anybody to watch but not most of it. Only the lowly CW gives every Joe Blow free access to their last five eps without a cable login.
My honest opinion? I don't think they can come up with enough bells and whistles to get the public rushing to the store for an STB and an antenna. I've always said they need large adoption numbers for it to work and no real incentive for that to happen. I think the only thing that'll do that is sunsetting 1.0 five years after any particular station begins the sharing simulcast scheme. They can't do on-demand network and syndicated streaming as they don't own those rights to begin with. All they have is live linear. Which almost mandates some kind of DVR capabilities in any TV set or STB trotted out. Otherwise, why bother? ..unless, of course, 1.0 gets flipped off. But there's a chicken-and-egg problem with that. Sure, you can SAY "if you don't buy a tuner, WXXX won't be available for you." No station will risk losing viewer numbers as it'd impact ad revenue.

This is another reason I'd bet manufacturers play wait-and-see: Broadcasters don't even KNOW what the bells and whistles will end up being, but it'll all be for naught if the sets and STBs don't do it. Any cool feature I can conjure up can sorta be done without 3.0. If we're predicting what the public will go "WOW" about 5 years down the road (when signal penetration is high enough to budge the needle a tiny bit) ..I have no earthly idea. I'm only saying that bells-and-whistles is the only way to drive adoption, because PQ won't. Apologies if I somehow implied it would definitely work. The public is funny. I would never have thought hockey pucks that listen to every word you say would be popular. But, here we are, Alexa. Maybe broadcasters can come up with something that'll drive at least the OTA crowd to ATSC 3.0. (I also still think their endgame is cable carriage of 3.0. Without it, the numbers don't work for targeted ads).

I think the smart money is on 5G. With 5G on the purchased UHF frequencies, broadcasters can get everything they want - retrans fees, targeted advertising.. the works. No ATSC 3.0 needed. Hate to say it, again, but I think a lot of the ATSC 3.0 hype is just there to drive up stock prices.

And, as always, I hope I'm wrong and eating my hat (ballcap, actually) while watching NFL in 4k OTA in 2022. And, yeah, I'll be the first on the block to buy a tuner. Assuming anyone in whatever town I'm living in lights up.
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post #1963 of 2151 Old 07-18-2019, 05:30 PM
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They haven't focused on broadcasting since the 50s. They focus on selling advertising. This isn't about finding new ways to draw viewers. This is about making more money using the viewers they have. 1080p... 4k.. not going to bring in additional eyeballs.
Maybe, maybe not. Neighbors of mine have seen my dumb old 2009 plasma OTA and walked back across the street to their bigger newer whatever TV via ATT or TWC (the only two pay options here) and come back wanting to know why my signal looks so much better. So I've sold a couple of antennas and produced some "additional eyeballs" for local OTA all on my own. And I wasn't paid for it. And they still use their antennas so I'm thinking they're happy with it.

But maybe you're right, maybe PQ doesn't matter.

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But, being able to better target those eyeballs is the Holy Grail here. Now, they sell one commercial seen by everybody watching at that time, regardless of age, sex or income level. Split that up so I see a Lexus ad while my elderly neighbor sees Pat Boone with a walk-in tub, that's a gold mine.
For the broadcaster. Not for the customer. I'm certainly not going to make an internet connection available and go through the degradation of PQ to stream it just to get creepy targeted ads. For that to happen, I have to have some incentive.

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But, for it to work, they have to drive adoption. PQ can't do it (AVSForum enthusiasts notwithstanding). Bells and whistles will.
And what bells and whistles can they offer? This is where I get lost. This is where I see smoke and mirrors and excessive hand waving.

OTOH, PQ would do it for me (not you obviously, but me). I don't need 4k, but I do need 1080p, as long as they don't crush the blacks like cable does, or bit-rate starve the signal like cable does, they'll probably have better PQ than cable does. PQ is why I cut the cable so long ago (2009? 2010?) and went the OTA route. And it could be why I go the OTA ATSC 3.0 route. But I'm doubting that will ever actually be an option after reading this thread. We'll see.
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post #1964 of 2151 Old 07-19-2019, 07:09 AM
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But maybe you're right, maybe PQ doesn't matter.
You actually proved my point. If PQ mattered that much to you 1) You'd have a 4K OLED set and 2) you'd be on DirecTV. The general public will not flock to a program just because it has a better picture. 4K NFL won't gain any viewers. In fact, the NFL's ratings haven't changed much since NTSC. HD is pretty. Didn't bring in new fans.

To your example, will better PQ move some people from cable to antenna. Yeah, probably a few. But what's the benefit to the broadcaster? It's the same viewer. That's why there has to be something else.. some way to recover the expense of ATSC 3.0 conversion AND equal or better the per-viewer revenue from retrans income.

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For the broadcaster. Not for the customer.
The viewer isn't the customer. The advertiser is the customer. The viewer is the commodity. For the actual customer, Sinclair's scheme is a very good one. Advertisers who don't normally choose television will be more likely to do so if they know their ad will be seen by a specific demographic or location. Here in Tampa, it'd be huuuge (pun only Tampans will get). You have restaurants on one side of the bay that don't draw many customers from the other. If a television station can sell the same slot to 3 or 4 different restaurants to reach only viewers nearer to them, it's a win-win: each restaurant pays less per ad and the station sells the same slot four times.

This is what Sinclair wants to do. The pre-fed ads sit on 3.0 TVs until just the right time. Done right, viewers will have no idea it's even being done.

Heck, it's being done, already, and you probably don't even know it. Many stations in Spectrum markets are feeding a different set of ads down the fiber feed to Spectrum than to the antenna.

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PQ would do it for me (not you obviously, but me).
Haven't read through my posts, have you? You're kinda right, though. PQ won't send me out to get a tuner. Just the presence of a signal will. I bought the first AM Stereo I could get my hands on, the first HD Radio, the first HDTV (remember the uber-heavy CRTs? I had one), one of the first the first ATSC 1.0 STBs ($275, open box) and THE first DirecTV HD tuner, even though all they had was HDNet and HBO on the 119 bird (I had to build my own dual-dish antenna). I'll do it, again, with 3.0 when it hits Tampa or Detroit (depending on where I am at the time). If a station here was testing HERE, I'd use my industry connections to get a broadcast-gear tuner. So, yeah. PQ isn't the reason.

As for the bells and whistles, guess we'll wait to see along with setmakers. To my point, PQ isn't selling TV sets NOW. They're all 4K. It's the bells-and-whistles. See any sets for sale that won't stream? The latest gimmick involves Alexa and Google assistant. For ATSC 3.0 to sell sets, it'll need a gotta-have-it feature. If that really IS 4k NFL, then setmakers are going to have to help pay for the buildout, just like they did with HD. Right now, they're moving sets just fine without much 4k linear programming.
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You actually proved my point. If PQ mattered that much to you 1) You'd have a 4K OLED set and 2) you'd be on DirecTV.
ROFL! There's more to picture quality than simple resolution. A nicely calibrated plasma can be a sight to behold. But even if we stick to just resolution, where I sit I can just tell the difference between 720 and 1080. Not a chance that qhd resolution will be an improvement. And no, sitting closer isn't going to happen. Sigh...

That said, I am hoping that LGD will keep improving their OLED panels. Panel uniformity is almost good enough, and their tint problems and motion handling issues are being hammered out, getting better every year. I'm hoping that 2020 or 21 is the year they surpass the old plasma set and I can buy one.

Well, this has been fun even if off topic, but I'm sure it's boring anyone watching this thread to tears. And since that's partly my fault I'm going to STFU now. 'Bout time, I know. Y'all have a good weekend.
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post #1966 of 2151 Old 07-19-2019, 03:32 PM
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Otherwise, why bother? ..unless, of course, 1.0 gets flipped off. But there's a chicken-and-egg problem with that. Sure, you can SAY "if you don't buy a tuner, WXXX won't be available for you." No station will risk losing viewer numbers as it'd impact ad revenue.
I'm pretty cynical about the whole thing, so I wouldn't be surprised if they went to 3.0 in an effort to see if they could push some of those subscribers to cable/satellite/vMVPDs instead of getting it OTA, since their primary revenue stream is retrans fees, and they may be able to get even more if the MSOs and vMVPDs start doing hyper-localized or individual IP-inject ads. OTOH, if they broadcast 3.0, more households can get a signal OTA, so they might lose some retrans fees to cord cutting in places that can't get a good 1.0 signal now. And the households that are OTA-only generally aren't great audiences to advertise to, although over time I think is changing as more middle- and upper-income households cut the cord. But then again, they might just want to do 3.0 so that they can put up a whole bunch of 720p subchannels and just grind out low-volume, low-CPM ad revenue on re-runs an syndicated content.

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Heck, it's being done, already, and you probably don't even know it. Many stations in Spectrum markets are feeding a different set of ads down the fiber feed to Spectrum than to the antenna.
Today, local injection ads are done by system. I don't think any MSO is doing it by town, neighborhood, or individual subscriber, so all the towns on a system get the same ad. However, I'm pretty sure that Comcast either has the ability to do it as granular as per household, or else they are a software update away from that. Their X1 fleet of boxes are all on a private v6 network, it's not rocket science to start pushing different ads out either ahead of time to the hard drive, or in real time via IP.

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ROFL! There's more to picture quality than simple resolution. A nicely calibrated plasma can be a sight to behold. But even if we stick to just resolution, where I sit I can just tell the difference between 720 and 1080. Not a chance that qhd resolution will be an improvement. And no, sitting closer isn't going to happen. Sigh...
You need the 85" Sony X900F. It's not OLED, but you'll be able to see that 4k! Personally, I'm a snob for video quality, but OLED doesn't do much for me given the price/performance ratio compared to LED-LCD.
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post #1967 of 2151 Old 07-19-2019, 04:30 PM
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Well, this has been fun even if off topic, but I'm sure it's boring anyone watching this thread to tears.
Nah. Pretty sure I sent most of them packing 15 pages ago.
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post #1968 of 2151 Old 07-19-2019, 05:38 PM
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Nah. Pretty sure I sent most of them packing 15 pages ago.
To sum up all of your posts: “follow the money”.
Most people move to OTA or stay with it: because it’s free.
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post #1969 of 2151 Old 07-19-2019, 08:24 PM
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I came to this thread, lo, many moons ago, optimistic and hopeful about a bright future for free OTA TV via ATSC 3.0. And now I am a hardened skeptic, convinced that 3.0 will come to naught. Dr. Don has broken me.
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post #1970 of 2151 Old 07-20-2019, 08:27 AM
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I came to this thread, lo, many moons ago, optimistic and hopeful about a bright future for free OTA TV via ATSC 3.0. And now I am a hardened skeptic, convinced that 3.0 will come to naught. Dr. Don has broken me.
I agree. I think the tech will work, but there are way too many competing business models and business interests to push ATSC 3.0 forward quickly and in a meaningful way.
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post #1971 of 2151 Old 07-20-2019, 08:41 AM
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Keep in mind, stations are now going through the repack and most are updating transmitters, installing new transmit antennas, etc. The supply chain for those products and tower service crews is very tight.
Making the move to 3.0 will create a similar supply chain issue once the FCC grants CPs. That’s another bottleneck that will slow things since, except for the few experimental stations now on air, the window for filing 3.0 requests only opened a few months ago.
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post #1972 of 2151 Old 07-22-2019, 05:15 PM
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But maybe you're right, maybe PQ doesn't matter.
Sure doesn't at all for the local outlets (around here). One after another they have dropped their main feed bit rates so low their streaming image is (far) superior. Easily the local newscast "looks" much better streamed (via their app) than OTA. At first the engineer will say everything looks great here... until you send them a few images and suddenly yeah we recently added x channel(s) and it might get better (at some point) with new equipment...

I agree everyone isn't a pixel counter but at this point in time it's hard for anyone not to notice the OTA drop in quality. Not to mention stream something (of relatively high quality) right before or after and try not to let it influence your future viewing. I'm hoping 3.0 brings (back) some quality and before I totally write-off OTA.
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post #1973 of 2151 Old 07-23-2019, 04:59 PM
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Keep in mind, stations are now going through the repack and most are updating transmitters, installing new transmit antennas, etc. The supply chain for those products and tower service crews is very tight.
Making the move to 3.0 will create a similar supply chain issue once the FCC grants CPs. That’s another bottleneck that will slow things since, except for the few experimental stations now on air, the window for filing 3.0 requests only opened a few months ago.
I am not "in the know" so much about the logistics of what it would take for any broadcaster to dive into ATSC 3.0 in the future. However, as I've read in the past, one broadcaster stated that once stations are repacked, it will (then) largely be software upgrades in order to transmit the 3.0 signal. If that's true, then it would seem (perhaps) that many of them might decide to adopt it.

As for the future (or lack thereof) of ATSC 3.0 in general, I also have to wonder if South Korea could not be used as a good case study into all this speculation here? Yes, it's a different society with its own culture. However, I would imagine that there are *still* some good indicators, from that market, in terms of how their general public is accepting and/or adopting the ATSC 3.0 standard.
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post #1974 of 2151 Old 07-24-2019, 10:41 PM
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Sure doesn't at all for the local outlets (around here). One after another they have dropped their main feed bit rates so low their streaming image is (far) superior. Easily the local newscast "looks" much better streamed (via their app) than OTA. At first the engineer will say everything looks great here... until you send them a few images and suddenly yeah we recently added x channel(s) and it might get better (at some point) with new equipment...

I agree everyone isn't a pixel counter but at this point in time it's hard for anyone not to notice the OTA drop in quality. Not to mention stream something (of relatively high quality) right before or after and try not to let it influence your future viewing. I'm hoping 3.0 brings (back) some quality and before I totally write-off OTA.
Yes. it's terrible here in the DC area. Both OTA in DC and FIOS has terrible picture quality. It's the entire reason I watch most of my content from streaming services now. The streaming services video quality blows away OTA in DC, FiOS and Comcast.

My HD OTA recordings from 2001 to 2004 put to shame anything that is broadcast in the DC area now. Even four or five years ago it was much, much better. And FIOS cable channels are just as bad now too. And Comcast is even worse.

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post #1975 of 2151 Old 07-25-2019, 11:52 AM
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Yes. it's terrible here in the DC area. Both OTA in DC and FIOS has terrible picture quality. It's the entire reason I watch most of my content from streaming services now. The streaming services video quality blows away OTA in DC, FiOS and Comcast.

My HD OTA recordings from 2001 to 2004 put to shame anything that is broadcast in the DC area now. Even four or five years ago it was much, much better. And FIOS cable channels are just as bad now too. And Comcast is even worse.
As I wrote in my predictions thread "Years and Years (of Pay TV Industry Predictions): 2019-2024," I think Verizon FiOS TV will completely shut down by the end of 2021. They're grooming Google's YouTube TV to be their next-gen pay TV service. Verizon has better things to do than fool with the garbage MVPD business, given that they don't own any of the cable channels themselves. Makes much more sense to focus on their core competencies -- and real profit-makers -- building and running fiber and wireless IP networks.

You can already bundle in YouTube TV on your Verizon account. And it just emerged that Verizon has submitted a streaming device creatively named "Stream TV" for FCC approval. Betcha dollars to doughnuts it'll run a slightly customized version of Google's Android TV and be intended for use by those who subscribe to and watch a lot of YouTube TV.
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post #1976 of 2151 Old 07-28-2019, 07:13 AM
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WRAL in Raleigh NC is testing a ATSC 3.0 channel now. They were also the first in the US to test a HD channel.

https://www.wral.com/wral-to-begin-b...logy/15815109/

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post #1977 of 2151 Old 07-28-2019, 07:29 AM
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WRAL in Raleigh NC is testing a ATSC 3.0 channel now. They were also the first in the US to test a HD channel.

https://www.wral.com/wral-to-begin-b...logy/15815109/
You did see that story from WRAL's website was published back in June 29, 2016, yes? That last line is a giveaway: I wonder if it was true? Is it true in July 2019? I still can't find a reasonable ATSC 3.0 receiver, so I still don't know.

And it would be interesting to know what WRAL has concluded about ATSC 3.0 after their years of testing.
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post #1978 of 2151 Old 07-28-2019, 07:32 AM
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You did see that story from WRAL's website was published back in June 29, 2016, yes? That last line is a giveaway: I wonder if it was true? Is it true in July 2019? I still can't find a reasonable ATSC 3.0 receiver, so I still don't know.

And it would be interesting to know what WRAL has concluded about ATSC 3.0 after their years of testing.
Considering I live in Raleigh I'd be curious also!

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post #1979 of 2151 Old 07-28-2019, 08:20 AM
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Any of the members that have ATSC SLM's (Signal level Meters) can verify IF those will reliably (correctly) read the level of a ATSC3 carrier?

I'm assuming that any with MER & BER capibility will not read properly or read at all those numbers. But, correct me if I'm wrong on that one.

.
.
Recording free OTA TV for 'time shifting' has been here since 1975. Will there be DVR's to do the same when ATSC3 obsoletes existing DVR's??
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post #1980 of 2151 Old 07-28-2019, 06:27 PM
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Considering I live in Raleigh I'd be curious also!

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Do you have a 4K TV? I get my ATSC 3.0 box back from Phoenix in a month or so, testing has been disappointing there, at least with it being in Raleigh I'll be able to tell if it can strictly parse 4K subchannels properly and nothing else. Pay the cost of shipping and I'll get to you, use it however long you want
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