Atsc 3.0 - Page 74 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 1224Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #2191 of 2260 Old 10-26-2019, 01:42 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tenthplanet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: North of Mexico, South of Oregon, West of desert
Posts: 6,509
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2263 Post(s)
Liked: 3561
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
I would never buy a TV based on the tuner it had. Since that would typically mean I would need to watch live TV. Even thirty years ago I didn't use the tuners in TVs. I used external devices with tuners connected to the TV. So I didn't have to watch live TV and could timeshift my TV watching.

I still remember my first 1080P TV I got in 2005. A Samsung DLP set that had a cable card slot. I never even considered using it because I would have needed to watch live TV. Instead, in 2006, I got three HD Series 3 TiVos that used cable cards.
I don't know if my current TV tuner even works I've had Tivo's hooked up to from day one. What's the old joke, tell a Tivo owner that their TV has a built tuner and they'll answer why .
aaronwt likes this.

"Espresso is like tequila, when in doubt apply more shots."
tenthplanet is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2192 of 2260 Old 10-28-2019, 01:47 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tenthplanet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: North of Mexico, South of Oregon, West of desert
Posts: 6,509
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2263 Post(s)
Liked: 3561
Quote:
Originally Posted by NashGuy View Post
Wow. The roadmap sounds pretty underwhelming -- meaningful revenues for NextGen broadcasting are probably at least 5 years away. Sounds like a major chicken-and-egg scenario. Although saying that it will launch in 61 markets, including all of the top 40, in 2020 is something, I guess.

From a consumer perspective, I wonder if there's going to be any real incentive in 2020 or 2021 to get an ATSC 3.0 tuner. What might realistically be offered on those airwaves that's better than the existing 1.0? If a given market has, let's say, just one NextGen frequency in operation, that might carry the main .1 channel from 2, 3 or 4 different stations partnering up on it. It sounds like NBC, Fox, and especially PBS are on board to support 3.0, so maybe if your local affiliates for those nets are on your local 3.0 frequency, you'd get some 1080p HDR content. The article says that neither ABC nor CBS have expressed any public support for 3.0, so their content may not really look any better on their affiliates' 3.0 feeds as on their 1.0 feeds.

And if all 3.0 tuners are actually going to be hybrid 3.0/1.0 tuners (which is my understanding), then broadcasters know that early adopters will still be able to get all of their secondary diginet channels via 1.0. Would there be any reason to repeat those channels, which mainly feature classic TV series originally created in SD, on the shared 3.0 frequency? Maybe you'd see MeTV, which offers a 720p HD feed, simulcast on the 3.0 frequency.

Would there be any new diginets exclusive to 3.0 in a given market? Seems unlikely in the first couple years because it would reach such a small audience. Although maybe we'll see them try out subscription channels on 3.0, although the only candidate that seems at all likely to me there would be if Sinclair distributed their new Diamond Sports (formerly Fox Sports) RSNs there. (Hard to imagine HBO or Showtime or ESPN jumping on board OTA subscription distribution. And, yes, I'm aware of the failed AirBox venture.)

Here in Nashville, Sinclair owns three stations, two of which just got repacked and are operating at reduced power while they await new antenna installations. I suspect one of them -- probably WNAB, our CW affiliate -- will switch over to 3.0 in 2020. After its new antenna gets installed, WNAB is supposed to jump to 950 kW, a decent increase in power over where it had been prior to the repack. To maintain the same coverage area with 3.0 as with 1.0, the station would have a bitrate of about 26 Mbps on 3.0. That could support 5 stations running 1080p HDR (or SDR), as that level of picture quality is said to require about 5 Mbps in the HEVC codec that 3.0 will use.

So what might be carried by WNAB if it goes 3.0? Maybe:

58.1 The CW (WNAB/Sinclair)
17.1 Fox (WZTV/Sinclair)
2.1 ABC (WKRN/Nexstar)
Diamond Sports South (Sinclair)
Diamond Sports Tennessee (Sinclair)

I'm putting our only local Nexstar station on there given Nexstar's established spectrum sharing arrangement with Sinclair.

If that's all that shows up on 3.0 around here next year, I won't be rushing out to get a tuner...
I don't think you have to worry about Diamond Sports (previous Fox RSN's) they'll push that to cable and satellite, and paid streaming services. Don't be surprised if you get Stadium and (God forbid) TBD.

"Espresso is like tequila, when in doubt apply more shots."
tenthplanet is offline  
post #2193 of 2260 Old 10-28-2019, 10:39 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
NashGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
Posts: 1,544
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1010 Post(s)
Liked: 640
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenthplanet View Post
I don't think you have to worry about Diamond Sports (previous Fox RSN's) they'll push that to cable and satellite, and paid streaming services. Don't be surprised if you get Stadium and (God forbid) TBD.
Oh, they'll definitely continue to distribute the old Fox RSNs on all their current platforms (e.g. cable, satellite, etc.). I'm just saying that IF we see any subscription channels distributed OTA here on ATSC 3.0, those channels are, IMO, the likeliest candidates given that they're now owned by Sinclair and Sinclair is the biggest promoter of ATSC 3.0. Sinclair might decide that they could make a little additional revenue on their sports nets from cord-cutters while encouraging ATSC 3.0 tuner adoption if they offered those channels that way.

Since the early stages of ATSC 3.0 development, there's been talk about it offering subscription channels OTA but it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me, given that those channels can and do make themselves available via internet streaming. About the only channels I can imagine being offered via 3.0 as a pay subscription are ones that are actually owned by one of the major 3.0 broadcast groups, like Sinclair.

As for Stadium and TBD, Sinclair has had those on their stations here in Nashville for a few years now (along with their other diginets Comet and Charge).
NashGuy is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2194 of 2260 Old 10-28-2019, 12:27 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
BiggAW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,335
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 838 Post(s)
Liked: 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
So they claim they will launch in top 40 markets next year but are keeping the details secret, won't identify many of the stations. Not even ATSC 3.0 vendors know who they are and only some handful of stations have gotten 3.0 licenses.

Sounding like this is mainly a Sinclair thing right now.
It sounds like a giant flop. If I were an OTA broadcaster, I'd stick with 1.0 and send better quality feeds to Comcast, DirecTV, etc, via fiber.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NashGuy View Post
And if all 3.0 tuners are actually going to be hybrid 3.0/1.0 tuners (which is my understanding), then broadcasters know that early adopters will still be able to get all of their secondary diginet channels via 1.0. Would there be any reason to repeat those channels, which mainly feature classic TV series originally created in SD, on the shared 3.0 frequency? Maybe you'd see MeTV, which offers a 720p HD feed, simulcast on the 3.0 frequency.

Would there be any new diginets exclusive to 3.0 in a given market? Seems unlikely in the first couple years because it would reach such a small audience. Although maybe we'll see them try out subscription channels on 3.0, although the only candidate that seems at all likely to me there would be if Sinclair distributed their new Diamond Sports (formerly Fox Sports) RSNs there. (Hard to imagine HBO or Showtime or ESPN jumping on board OTA subscription distribution. And, yes, I'm aware of the failed AirBox venture.)
I'm still super skeptical on 3.0, but if it happens, I predict a massive explosion of new Diginets. It might take a few years before they start though, as they'd want a decent mass of viewers to have 3.0 tuners. Would 3.0 diginets get them into must-carry for cable? If the main channel is retransmission consent, can they push a subchannel through on must carry, or does it all come as one big chunk?
BiggAW is offline  
post #2195 of 2260 Old 10-30-2019, 12:18 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
NashGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
Posts: 1,544
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1010 Post(s)
Liked: 640
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
I'm still super skeptical on 3.0, but if it happens, I predict a massive explosion of new Diginets. It might take a few years before they start though, as they'd want a decent mass of viewers to have 3.0 tuners. Would 3.0 diginets get them into must-carry for cable? If the main channel is retransmission consent, can they push a subchannel through on must carry, or does it all come as one big chunk?
Good question. I doubt that a subchannel can be forced onto an MVPD's line-up under the must-carry rule if the main .1 channel is negotiated via retrans consent, but I don't know. Maybe someone else can answer. Around here, it looks like Comcast carries most, but not all, of the subchannels for our main local broadcasters. For instance, our ABC affiliate has Bounce TV, Justice Network, and Grit on their .2, .3, and .4. Looks like Comcast carries the first two but not Grit. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

And keep in mind that retrans and must-carry are the existing rules for ATSC 1.0. Who knows what it will look like for 3.0. At least for now, MVPD carriage of 3.0 signals is completely voluntary and it doesn't sound like the MVPDs are chomping at the bit to offer them unless they offer some kind of new features that their customers demand.

As for an explosion of new diginets on 3.0, yeah, maybe, but only once there's a sufficient number of potential viewers. But I'm just not sure, at this point, that I see any new linear channels being created that aren't also intended to be live-streamed OTT. That already happens with a decent number of existing ATSC 1.0 diginets, like Comet, Charge!, and the newest one, Court TV. So if all future OTA diginets are also made available for free streaming online, is it really in the interests of local ATSC 3.0 stations to spend some of their precious bandwidth on OTA transmission of those diginets? Remember that the hope among broadcasters is that all 3.0 tuners will be internet-connected so that viewers can be reached with targeted ads, interactive features, etc. So why not just live stream the new diginets, both to 3.0 tuners as well as to whatever apps they want to reach (e.g. Xumo TV, Pluto TV, etc.)? Will there be enough non-internet-connected 3.0 tuners in use to justify expending OTA bandwidth on new diginets?
NashGuy is offline  
post #2196 of 2260 Old 10-30-2019, 11:22 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tenthplanet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: North of Mexico, South of Oregon, West of desert
Posts: 6,509
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2263 Post(s)
Liked: 3561
Quote:
Originally Posted by NashGuy View Post
Good question. I doubt that a subchannel can be forced onto an MVPD's line-up under the must-carry rule if the main .1 channel is negotiated via retrans consent, but I don't know. Maybe someone else can answer. Around here, it looks like Comcast carries most, but not all, of the subchannels for our main local broadcasters. For instance, our ABC affiliate has Bounce TV, Justice Network, and Grit on their .2, .3, and .4. Looks like Comcast carries the first two but not Grit. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

And keep in mind that retrans and must-carry are the existing rules for ATSC 1.0. Who knows what it will look like for 3.0. At least for now, MVPD carriage of 3.0 signals is completely voluntary and it doesn't sound like the MVPDs are chomping at the bit to offer them unless they offer some kind of new features that their customers demand.

As for an explosion of new diginets on 3.0, yeah, maybe, but only once there's a sufficient number of potential viewers. But I'm just not sure, at this point, that I see any new linear channels being created that aren't also intended to be live-streamed OTT. That already happens with a decent number of existing ATSC 1.0 diginets, like Comet, Charge!, and the newest one, Court TV. So if all future OTA diginets are also made available for free streaming online, is it really in the interests of local ATSC 3.0 stations to spend some of their precious bandwidth on OTA transmission of those diginets? Remember that the hope among broadcasters is that all 3.0 tuners will be internet-connected so that viewers can be reached with targeted ads, interactive features, etc. So why not just live stream the new diginets, both to 3.0 tuners as well as to whatever apps they want to reach (e.g. Xumo TV, Pluto TV, etc.)? Will there be enough non-internet-connected 3.0 tuners in use to justify expending OTA bandwidth on new diginets?
A lot of digi-nets are what I call Boomer Vision, for people under 50 increasingly if a service can't be streamed it might as well not exist.
NashGuy likes this.

"Espresso is like tequila, when in doubt apply more shots."
tenthplanet is offline  
post #2197 of 2260 Old 10-31-2019, 05:17 AM
Senior Member
 
Tschmidt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Milford, NH
Posts: 385
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 45 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenthplanet View Post
A lot of digi-nets are what I call Boomer Vision,
I'm a geezer and a fanboy of OTA but can't say I watch much linear TV. For me the ratio of content to commercials is too low and I'm not interested enough in the content to expend the effort to implement a DVR.

Our main viewing is PBS and the local TV station for news and weather.

/tom
NTC, cah95046, NashGuy and 1 others like this.
Tschmidt is offline  
post #2198 of 2260 Old 10-31-2019, 10:42 AM
Member
 
KeithWE6R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Posts: 47
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenthplanet View Post
I don't know if my current TV tuner even works I've had Tivo's hooked up to from day one. What's the old joke, tell a Tivo owner that their TV has a built tuner and they'll answer why .
Except my Samsung TV tuner receives a bunch of stations that my Tivo box will NOT!
1. Stations that don't send the proper (or any) PSIP.
2. Stations with sub-channels that have fubar PSIP (or something).
3. It also shows me exactly what the station is sending for ID vs the Tivo that has to match what "someone" has entered into their database.
Keith
KeithWE6R is offline  
post #2199 of 2260 Old 10-31-2019, 04:29 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
NashGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
Posts: 1,544
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1010 Post(s)
Liked: 640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tschmidt View Post
I'm a geezer and a fanboy of OTA but can't say I watch much linear TV. For me the ratio of content to commercials is too low and I'm not interested enough in the content to expend the effort to implement a DVR.

Our main viewing is PBS and the local TV station for news and weather.

/tom
Yeah. So often I scan through what's playing on my local OTA channels and I feel like PBS is the only quality option amid a sea of blah. For those of us who have shifted to mostly streaming, I think local TV is mainly for live news, weather and sports (especially football). I did bother to set up an OTA DVR (MythTV, which runs on my Mac) and just paid a whopping $25 (ha) for a whole year subscription to a 14-day program guide. I record several things each week, mainly news shows but also SNL and a handful of weekly series. It's nice to have. I had been a regular Hulu subscriber for a long while, which largely obviated the need for an OTA DVR, but I recently dropped that service, so now I'm recording OTA somewhat more.
cah95046 likes this.
NashGuy is offline  
post #2200 of 2260 Old 11-02-2019, 11:30 AM
Senior Member
 
beboram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: MD
Posts: 328
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Any announcements when ATSC 3.0 equipped TVs may be available? I'd rather upgrade to a ATSC 3.0 TV than get a STB later since Baltimore and Washington DC may start ATSC 3.0 broadcast next year.
beboram is offline  
post #2201 of 2260 Old 11-02-2019, 12:57 PM
Advanced Member
 
Primestar31's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Under the bridge (Lower Michigan)
Posts: 617
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 197 Post(s)
Liked: 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by beboram View Post
Any announcements when ATSC 3.0 equipped TVs may be available? I'd rather upgrade to a ATSC 3.0 TV than get a STB later since Baltimore and Washington DC may start ATSC 3.0 broadcast next year.
I'm waiting also, but I don't expect them before a minimum of Summer 2020.
Primestar31 is offline  
post #2202 of 2260 Old 11-03-2019, 06:48 AM
Senior Member
 
Bruce Watson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Central NC
Posts: 439
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 188 Post(s)
Liked: 286
The Raleigh News and Observer is reporting on a set change for WRAL TV News. WRAL was the first station on the air with HDTV back when the analog to digital changeover was being contemplated.

That's not so interesting to this group. But this bit might be:

"In addition to the new set, WRAL, a station known for its early adoption of new technology, says its newscasts will now be shot with 4K HDR (high dynamic range) technology. (WRAL was the first commercial TV station in the nation to broadcast high-definition TV back in 1996.)"

So local news will be shot in 4k HDR. Doesn't say it will be broadcast in 4k HDR. But it doesn't say it won't be. Hmmm...

Anyone have access to someone who might actually know? I'm pretty sure WRAL has at least some ATSC 3.0 capability. I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't broadcasting the local news in 4K as a test. Which is what they did with HDTV a couple of decades ago. I'm just sayin' it's not like they haven't done this kind of thing before.
Bruce Watson is offline  
post #2203 of 2260 Old 11-04-2019, 06:47 AM
Member
 
dundakitty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Durham, NC
Posts: 145
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 31
WRAL started broadcasting ATSC 3.0 on physical channel 39 in June of 2016 under an experimental license.
I think the repack may have ended their testing.
dundakitty is offline  
post #2204 of 2260 Old 11-04-2019, 01:53 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
NashGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
Posts: 1,544
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1010 Post(s)
Liked: 640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Primestar31 View Post
I'm waiting also, but I don't expect them before a minimum of Summer 2020.
I expect we'll see at least a couple models of TVs with built-in 3.0 tuners showcased at CES in Jan. 2020, although, yeah, TVs that are shown there don't typically hit the market until spring or summer.
NashGuy is offline  
post #2205 of 2260 Old 11-05-2019, 01:48 PM
Advanced Member
 
reds75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 665
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 218 Post(s)
Liked: 219
I wish more stations were like WRAL. Good for them.
reds75 is offline  
post #2206 of 2260 Old 11-05-2019, 04:24 PM
Super Moderator
 
DrDon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Metro Detroit, Tampa Bay
Posts: 17,224
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2343 Post(s)
Liked: 4467
Quote:
Originally Posted by reds75 View Post
I wish more stations were like WRAL. Good for them.
I'll bet "more stations" wish they were like WRAL, too:

1. The FCC awards them a second frequency for ATSC 3.0, so they don't have to channel-share. Not many are going to get that. In fact, I'd bet all the "experimental" licenses have been awarded.

2. Equipment manufacturers provide gear for free or at greatly reduced cost in order to use the station as a live demo opportunity.

Few other stations will get those perks. The rest will have to channel share and pay full price for the gear with little hope of cost recovery.
joblo likes this.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
DrDon is online now  
post #2207 of 2260 Old 11-06-2019, 01:22 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Trip in VA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Alexandria, VA, US
Posts: 16,869
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1665 Post(s)
Liked: 704
WRAL's experimental authority has expired with the repack. It's now in the same boat as every other station.

- Trip

N4MJC

Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

RabbitEars

"Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand..." - Rush "Witch Hunt"

Trip in VA is online now  
post #2208 of 2260 Old 11-06-2019, 02:45 PM
Super Moderator
 
DrDon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Metro Detroit, Tampa Bay
Posts: 17,224
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2343 Post(s)
Liked: 4467
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
WRAL's experimental authority has expired with the repack. It's now in the same boat as every other station.

- Trip
Figured as much w/r/t experimental channel. I'd bet they're still a bit ahead of the game as they've got gear other stations haven't even put into budget projections, yet.
JHBrandt likes this.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
DrDon is online now  
post #2209 of 2260 Old 11-06-2019, 07:23 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
JHBrandt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: S. Garland, TX
Posts: 7,062
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2870 Post(s)
Liked: 1398
KSTR in DFW has an experimental ATSC 3.0 STA that persisted after the repack here. But unlike WRAL, they didn't get a second channel (either before or after the repack). They had to move their channels onto two other stations to pull it off.

Not sure if they got any gratis ATSC 3.0 equipment though.
DrDon, tenthplanet and kc9pke like this.
JHBrandt is online now  
post #2210 of 2260 Old 11-06-2019, 09:29 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 63
Geniatech said their ATSC 3.0 tuner would be available for purchase in October and I don't see a thing about it anywhere

Sad!
kc9pke is offline  
post #2211 of 2260 Old 11-06-2019, 11:35 PM
Senior Member
 
dhett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Chandler AZ
Posts: 476
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 75 Post(s)
Liked: 124
In Phoenix, KFPH-CD has been allowed to renew their experimental STA as host of the Phoenix Test Bed. They seem to be getting most of the same equipment benefits that WRAL had, but they had to use their channel 35 frequency and farm their subchannels out to other stations. There are at least a half dozen other stations participating, three of which took one each of KFPH's subchannels, so it's seamless to viewers.

The STA for KFPH will expire in April 2020.
dhett is offline  
post #2212 of 2260 Old 11-07-2019, 03:40 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tenthplanet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: North of Mexico, South of Oregon, West of desert
Posts: 6,509
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2263 Post(s)
Liked: 3561
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
I'll bet "more stations" wish they were like WRAL, too:

1. The FCC awards them a second frequency for ATSC 3.0, so they don't have to channel-share. Not many are going to get that. In fact, I'd bet all the "experimental" licenses have been awarded.

2. Equipment manufacturers provide gear for free or at greatly reduced cost in order to use the station as a live demo opportunity.

Few other stations will get those perks. The rest will have to channel share and pay full price for the gear with little hope of cost recovery.
Full price with little hope of cost recovery..that's kind of sad . I know a TV station is not a license to print money but still..

"Espresso is like tequila, when in doubt apply more shots."
tenthplanet is offline  
post #2213 of 2260 Old 11-07-2019, 07:35 AM
Senior Member
 
Tschmidt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Milford, NH
Posts: 385
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 45 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenthplanet View Post
Full price with little hope of cost recovery..that's kind of sad (
I assume (know what they say) most of the cost of upgrading to ATSC 3.0 is in the transmitter. Any station taking repack money would be smart to purchase an ATSC 3.0 transmitter. The rest of the production infrastructure is unchanged unless you want to take advantage of IP features.
tenthplanet likes this.
Tschmidt is offline  
post #2214 of 2260 Old 11-16-2019, 06:09 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tenthplanet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: North of Mexico, South of Oregon, West of desert
Posts: 6,509
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2263 Post(s)
Liked: 3561
I know some of us are somewhat skeptical about aspects of ATSC 3.0, but I'm starting to read things elsewhere that border on conspiracy theories. Let us never go there. Now go watch TV.

"Espresso is like tequila, when in doubt apply more shots."
tenthplanet is offline  
post #2215 of 2260 Old 11-19-2019, 10:49 PM
Senior Member
 
bobchase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tschmidt View Post
I assume (know what they say) most of the cost of upgrading to ATSC 3.0 is in the transmitter. Any station taking repack money would be smart to purchase an ATSC 3.0 transmitter. The rest of the production infrastructure is unchanged unless you want to take advantage of IP features.
There is $100k~300k or more of equipment on the studio side. Plus the cost of complete replacement of the STL if it isn't already an IP based microwave.
Tschmidt likes this.

We are experiencing some Technical Difficulties.
Please standby while we reboot our TV station...
bobchase is offline  
post #2216 of 2260 Old 11-19-2019, 10:52 PM
Senior Member
 
bobchase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhett View Post
In Phoenix, KFPH-CD has been allowed to renew their experimental STA as host of the Phoenix Test Bed. They seem to be getting most of the same equipment benefits that WRAL had, but they had to use their channel 35 frequency and farm their subchannels out to other stations. There are at least a half dozen other stations participating, three of which took one each of KFPH's subchannels, so it's seamless to viewers.

The STA for KFPH will expire in April 2020.
Some of the equipment vendors are already bugging Univision for the money. Others are still loaning equipment, especially those just bring equipment out of the lab

We are experiencing some Technical Difficulties.
Please standby while we reboot our TV station...
bobchase is offline  
post #2217 of 2260 Old 11-20-2019, 03:10 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sneals2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 7,871
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 477 Post(s)
Liked: 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobchase View Post
There is $100k~300k or more of equipment on the studio side. Plus the cost of complete replacement of the STL if it isn't already an IP based microwave.
Presumably studio side you need replacement / additional encoders (to cope with HEVC/h.265 rather than MPEG2 encoding) plus new muxing equipment to handle the different requirements for ATSC 3.0 (it's not MPEG2 transport stream based like ATSC and the DVB platforms is it?) - and that gear is studio/station-side isn't it? You don't need to upgrade 1080i29.97 or 720p59.94 production studios (though running 1080p59.94 would be a nice upgrade and you could deinterlace/upscale 1080i/720p content?) but the emission encoding and mux would be an upgrade, and I expect this isn't at the transmitter end.

You then have to get the new coded-and-muxed data stream to the transmitter(s) for modulation and broadcast - which will require STL (Station-Transmitter-Links) - which are presumably microwave or fibre - that can handle the new ATSC 3.0 bitrate data stream?

In the US I understand all this falls to stations to handle. (In Europe, it's common for transmitter distribution and final modulation to be handled by separate 'transmitter operation' companies - which in some cases are nationally/state-owned, and in some cases coding and mux is also handled by these operators - though in some instances broadcasters handle this themselves. In the UK all transmitters are operated by a commercial company called Arqiva, who also handle coding and mux for some muxes, but the BBC handle coding and mux for two muxes)
sneals2000 is offline  
post #2218 of 2260 Old 11-20-2019, 08:46 PM
Senior Member
 
bobchase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 17
sneals2000
You are close.

You certainly need new exciters.

The mux is optional. Statistical multiplexing helps if you own all the streams. If you cost share with other stations it can cause problems like "we paid for 12 mbs but last night we only got 6 ~ 9 mbs during prime". The lighthouses are more likely to be CBR.

After that signal goes to Route Encapsulation or MMT encapsulation where it gets it's multicast IP and port numbers.

Then comes Signaling/Signing equipment. Signaling sets the Major/Minor, short and long subscriptions, adds the stream to the ESG,etc. Signing is to ensure that the TV is authorized to receive the channel.

Finally it goes to the Scheduling(Gateway) for the STLTP output. The scheduler sets the modulation scheme for each of the PLP's. STLTP is yet another layer of multicast encapsulation.


The STLTP feed goes to an IP based microwave. It could go to a fiber feed but they are rare at transmitter sites.


At the far end of the microwave a station will need two new exciters certainly. They will also most likely need a new transmitter because most transmitters do not have the extra headroom required for 1.0 to 3.0 conversion. So it's a new xmitter or de-rate your transmit power by 20%



A station will also require a PTP Master Clock.
they will need at least one piece of equipment to measure, monitor, and record the various IP streams through the layers. (Unicast, Multicast, STLTP, and RF demod)

If they are doing 4k, they should also invest in outboard 2k-to-4k upconverters for the legacy feeds.

Same if they are doing 2k HFR (high frame rate) and/or HDR.


We haven't even touched IMSC1 that is just coming on line now or AEAS that is still vaporware.
rdvegas likes this.

We are experiencing some Technical Difficulties.
Please standby while we reboot our TV station...
bobchase is offline  
post #2219 of 2260 Old 11-22-2019, 09:46 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
NashGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
Posts: 1,544
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1010 Post(s)
Liked: 640
Here's part 1 of a 2-part interview with one of the major figures behind ATSC 1.0 and 3.0. Interesting read. I learned, for one thing, why ATSC 1.0 went with glitch-prone VSB rather than OFDM transmission. Also got a laugh out of the final Q&A: "How do you think 3.0 will play out at Comcast/NBCU?" "No comment."

Glenn Reitmeier Opens Up About The Past, Future Of Television
aaronwt and tenthplanet like this.
NashGuy is offline  
post #2220 of 2260 Old 11-23-2019, 01:44 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tenthplanet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: North of Mexico, South of Oregon, West of desert
Posts: 6,509
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2263 Post(s)
Liked: 3561
Quote:
Originally Posted by NashGuy View Post
Here's part 1 of a 2-part interview with one of the major figures behind ATSC 1.0 and 3.0. Interesting read. I learned, for one thing, why ATSC 1.0 went with glitch-prone VSB rather than OFDM transmission. Also got a laugh out of the final Q&A: "How do you think 3.0 will play out at Comcast/NBCU?" "No comment."

Glenn Reitmeier Opens Up About The Past, Future Of Television
With all the "pseudo-facts" lurking on the internet, it's always to good to read what engineers and scientists who really work with this stuff have to tell us. Thanks for posting the link
NashGuy likes this.

"Espresso is like tequila, when in doubt apply more shots."
tenthplanet is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply HDTV Technical

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off