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post #2221 of 2257 Old 11-23-2019, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by bobchase View Post
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You are close.

You certainly need new exciters.

The mux is optional. Statistical multiplexing helps if you own all the streams. If you cost share with other stations it can cause problems like "we paid for 12 mbs but last night we only got 6 ~ 9 mbs during prime". The lighthouses are more likely to be CBR.
Ah - I guess because I'm used to 'coding and mux' being done in the same process (whether CBR or statmuxed) in the realms of DVB-T/T2/S/S2 which all use transport streams I'd kind of ignored that ATSC 3.0 is more IP based so doesn't 'mux' into a single transport stream in the same way. By mux I meant creating a single multiplex stream, not statmuxing. Here all OTA services are statmuxed apart from the local TV mux. It's agreed that statmuxing is overall 'a good thing' so you don't pay for a fixed bitrate, but for carriage.

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After that signal goes to Route Encapsulation or MMT encapsulation where it gets it's multicast IP and port numbers.

Then comes Signaling/Signing equipment. Signaling sets the Major/Minor, short and long subscriptions, adds the stream to the ESG,etc. Signing is to ensure that the TV is authorized to receive the channel.

Finally it goes to the Scheduling(Gateway) for the STLTP output. The scheduler sets the modulation scheme for each of the PLP's. STLTP is yet another layer of multicast encapsulation.


The STLTP feed goes to an IP based microwave. It could go to a fiber feed but they are rare at transmitter sites.
Ah - big difference to here. Microwave distribution died with analogue transmission here. Since 1998 all digital TV transmitters have been fibre fed, and that continued when we switched a mux from T to T2.

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At the far end of the microwave a station will need two new exciters certainly. They will also most likely need a new transmitter because most transmitters do not have the extra headroom required for 1.0 to 3.0 conversion. So it's a new xmitter or de-rate your transmit power by 20%



A station will also require a PTP Master Clock.
That's going to be a steep learning curve. Broadcast PTP use is relatively early - but understanding it is vital for AES67, ST.2110 etc. IP production standards.

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they will need at least one piece of equipment to measure, monitor, and record the various IP streams through the layers. (Unicast, Multicast, STLTP, and RF demod)

If they are doing 4k, they should also invest in outboard 2k-to-4k upconverters for the legacy feeds.

Same if they are doing 2k HFR (high frame rate) and/or HDR.


We haven't even touched IMSC1 that is just coming on line now or AEAS that is still vaporware.
1080p HDR is a good fit for OTA (and with HLG you are SDR compatible) - and with HEVC compression quite a good bandwidth compromise.
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post #2222 of 2257 Old 11-24-2019, 03:35 PM
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I have seen a few articles that talk about ATSC 3.0 being online here in Chicago and I would love to get a peak at it but I cant find any sort of consumer/in home receiver equipment. Do outboard boxes exist or is it a waiting game for TVs with integrated tuning? (personally I hope everything moves to outboard boxes so I dont have to replace "smart" TVs to get new features)
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post #2223 of 2257 Old 11-24-2019, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by agreer4 View Post
I have seen a few articles that talk about ATSC 3.0 being online here in Chicago and I would love to get a peak at it but I cant find any sort of consumer/in home receiver equipment. Do outboard boxes exist or is it a waiting game for TVs with integrated tuning? (personally I hope everything moves to outboard boxes so I dont have to replace "smart" TVs to get new features)
We're waiting on consumer ATSC 3.0 tuners to come to market, both in the form of external boxes as well as TVs with built-in tuners. Both are expected to arrive in the US at some point in 2020. We'll see...
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post #2224 of 2257 Old 11-24-2019, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by NashGuy View Post
We're waiting on consumer ATSC 3.0 tuners to come to market, both in the form of external boxes as well as TVs with built-in tuners. Both are expected to arrive in the US at some point in 2020. We'll see...
Even though CES isn’t until the 1st full week in January they have already announced some technology awards. LG won 1 for including an ATSC 3.0 tuner in their 2020 OLED TVs
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post #2225 of 2257 Old 11-24-2019, 05:03 PM
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Even though CES isn’t until the 1st full week in January they have already announced some technology awards. LG won 1 for including an ATSC 3.0 tuner in their 2020 OLED TVs
Very cool, but I guess I was just hoping that I may be able to snag a broadcast feed of the superbowl in 4k...maybe 2021
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post #2226 of 2257 Old 11-24-2019, 05:09 PM
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Very cool, but I guess I was just hoping that I may be able to snag a broadcast feed of the superbowl in 4k...maybe 2021
No networks have announced any plans to broadcast anything in 4k.

There's a good chance local stations will just cram lower resolution content into several sub channels.
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post #2227 of 2257 Old 11-25-2019, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by agreer4 View Post
I have seen a few articles that talk about ATSC 3.0 being online here in Chicago and I would love to get a peak at it but I cant find any sort of consumer/in home receiver equipment. Do outboard boxes exist or is it a waiting game for TVs with integrated tuning? (personally I hope everything moves to outboard boxes so I dont have to replace "smart" TVs to get new features)
Right now all of the TV's are prototype (and I'm being generous there) and are not for sale. Dongles exist but the software tends to by buggy, expensive, may not decode AC4 yet, and the dongle requires a higher SNR that the prototype TV's do. With the FCC requirement of simulcasting for 5 years and only lighthouses standing up, things like 4k HDR or 2k HFR/HDR are future tech that will happen when someone has their own 3.0 stick in order to stand up whatever flavor their network settles on.
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post #2228 of 2257 Old 11-26-2019, 01:18 AM
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Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
No networks have announced any plans to broadcast anything in 4k.

There's a good chance local stations will just cram lower resolution content into several sub channels.
I hope you're wrong, but you may be right. If there is no 4k broadcasting, some people are going to be very upset. I have my internet bunker prepared if/when needed. "Flame Wars Chapter IX"

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post #2229 of 2257 Old 11-26-2019, 01:23 AM
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Originally Posted by NashGuy View Post
We're waiting on consumer ATSC 3.0 tuners to come to market, both in the form of external boxes as well as TVs with built-in tuners. Both are expected to arrive in the US at some point in 2020. We'll see...
The other question is where are the DVR's that can record this. Most people won't want live outside of a sporting event.

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post #2230 of 2257 Old 11-26-2019, 07:32 AM
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The other question is where are the DVR's that can record this. Most people won't want live outside of a sporting event.
There are two companies that have prototype OTA 3.0 DVR/Gateways that they are working on. The gateway portion allows a user to tune into the received streams via WiFi.
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post #2231 of 2257 Old 11-26-2019, 11:48 AM
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The other question is where are the DVR's that can record this. Most people won't want live outside of a sporting event.
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There are two companies that have prototype OTA 3.0 DVR/Gateways that they are working on. The gateway portion allows a user to tune into the received streams via WiFi.
Yeah, since the early days of promoting ATSC 3.0, the NAB has talked about the possibility of tuner "gateways" to which one could connect a storage drive for DVR. These gateways will essentially be like the current Tablo DVRs for ATSC 1.0. By themselves, they simply route live TV into your home router for distribution to all screens in the home. Connect a hard drive and you've got the ability to record. Of course, Tablo charges a DVR service fee to get their 14-day program guide (otherwise, you just have to set up manual VCR-style recordings). Will be interesting to see what the business model might look like for DVR service with the ATSC 3.0 gateways. I could imagine it being free if you connect your gateway to live internet service, which would allow for targeted, programmatic ads to be served up to you during live and recorded TV. Oh, and you won't be able to skip ads in your recordings. And recordings auto-delete after a certain amount of time (e.g. 2 weeks, or maybe 1 month). But hey, it's free!
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post #2232 of 2257 Old 11-26-2019, 01:58 PM
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I hope you're wrong, but you may be right. If there is no 4k broadcasting, some people are going to be very upset. I have my internet bunker prepared if/when needed. "Flame Wars Chapter IX"
Few people will be upset. Millions of people who bought 4K TVs in the last couple of years don't know they're not getting native 4K content. They're fine with upscaled 720p low-bit rate channels.

Just like back in the day, people thought upscaled DVDs on HDTVs looked fine.

There are not enough people clamoring for 4K to get the networks to make even some kind of roadmap for delivering it.
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post #2233 of 2257 Old 11-26-2019, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
Few people will be upset. Millions of people who bought 4K TVs in the last couple of years don't know they're not getting native 4K content. They're fine with upscaled 720p low-bit rate channels.

Just like back in the day, people thought upscaled DVDs on HDTVs looked fine.

There are not enough people clamoring for 4K to get the networks to make even some kind of roadmap for delivering it.
Yes. Unfortunately, people on this forum are nowhere near the norm.
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Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
Few people will be upset. Millions of people who bought 4K TVs in the last couple of years don't know they're not getting native 4K content. They're fine with upscaled 720p low-bit rate channels.

Just like back in the day, people thought upscaled DVDs on HDTVs looked fine.

There are not enough people clamoring for 4K to get the networks to make even some kind of roadmap for delivering it.
They just bought a TV, try to buy one of any size that isn't 4k. The ones that do care will be streaming.. OTT = OTA R.I.P. ?

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Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
Few people will be upset. Millions of people who bought 4K TVs in the last couple of years don't know they're not getting native 4K content. They're fine with upscaled 720p low-bit rate channels.

Just like back in the day, people thought upscaled DVDs on HDTVs looked fine.

There are not enough people clamoring for 4K to get the networks to make even some kind of roadmap for delivering it.
Far more people are streaming Netflix and Amazon in 4k than even care about 4k in the first place... just because 4k TVs will stream in 4k if the provider and plan offers it. I'm a big fan of 4k (not so much HDR although it's alright), but even I don't watch much content in 4k because there just isn't that much content in 4k.
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Far more people are streaming Netflix and Amazon in 4k than even care about 4k in the first place... just because 4k TVs will stream in 4k if the provider and plan offers it. I'm a big fan of 4k (not so much HDR although it's alright), but even I don't watch much content in 4k because there just isn't that much content in 4k.
I wonder what percentage of Netflix customers subscribe to the plan required to get 4K. 10%? 25%? 50%? 80%?

Also from what I read, it's not that transparent to find and play back UHD HDR for Amazon Prime customers.

So it might be that a lot of streaming customers are watching upscaled 1080p SDR on these services.
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post #2237 of 2257 Old 12-03-2019, 08:48 PM
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I wonder what percentage of Netflix customers subscribe to the plan required to get 4K. 10%? 25%? 50%? 80%?

Also from what I read, it's not that transparent to find and play back UHD HDR for Amazon Prime customers.

So it might be that a lot of streaming customers are watching upscaled 1080p SDR on these services.
I would bet that many who do only do so because that plan has 4 streams at the same time and they share their account with their brother, their step-dad, and their cousin's girlfriend. It really pisses me off that Netflix is charging me more for Netflix just because I have a 4k TV and actually want to be able to use it at it's full resolution, even though I don't need the 4 streams, since I haven't shared my account nearly as widely as many do. Amazon Prime does have a really weird way of doing it, as they have separate titles for 4k, and it's not always obvious what is what.
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post #2238 of 2257 Old 12-04-2019, 11:52 AM
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I would bet that many who do only do so because that plan has 4 streams at the same time and they share their account with their brother, their step-dad, and their cousin's girlfriend. It really pisses me off that Netflix is charging me more for Netflix just because I have a 4k TV and actually want to be able to use it at it's full resolution, even though I don't need the 4 streams, since I haven't shared my account nearly as widely as many do. Amazon Prime does have a really weird way of doing it, as they have separate titles for 4k, and it's not always obvious what is what.
Unless it's promo'd in the banner it is indeed difficult to find the UHD version on Amazon. The trick is to scroll way, way down to the genre section where they have UHD series and UHD movies as a genre. The problem there is that they still mix the series and movies. Plus I don't think all the UHD is there either.


I was ticked off too at being charged extra for 4K. One wonders what suit in Los Gatos thought that one up? It's about as bad as being charged a late fee at Blockbuster back in the day.


I think word of mouth will generally get those unaware of how much better 4K looks. It takes brightly lit scenes to show 4K off. Not all shooting styles help.
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post #2239 of 2257 Old 12-04-2019, 12:05 PM
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Unless it's promo'd in the banner it is indeed difficult to find the UHD version on Amazon. The trick is to scroll way, way down to the genre section where they have UHD series and UHD movies as a genre. The problem there is that they still mix the series and movies. Plus I don't think all the UHD is there either.
Yeah. Or if you have an Apple TV 4K streaming box, then you can use their Apple TV app (and Siri voice search) to find Amazon Prime Video content. Click on the title there and if a 4K HDR version is available, hidden somewhere inside the Prime Video app, you'll go straight to it. No need to muck around in Amazon's poorly conceived UI to find the 4K version.
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post #2240 of 2257 Old 12-04-2019, 01:30 PM
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I think word of mouth will generally get those unaware of how much better 4K looks. It takes brightly lit scenes to show 4K off. Not all shooting styles help.
1. Most people are blind and oblivious. Comcast's atrocious VQ has proven this.

2. 1080p looks pretty darn good already.

3. Only some types of content can really benefit from 4k.
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I would bet that many who do only do so because that plan has 4 streams at the same time and they share their account with their brother, their step-dad, and their cousin's girlfriend. It really pisses me off that Netflix is charging me more for Netflix just because I have a 4k TV and actually want to be able to use it at it's full resolution, even though I don't need the 4 streams, since I haven't shared my account nearly as widely as many do. Amazon Prime does have a really weird way of doing it, as they have separate titles for 4k, and it's not always obvious what is what.
If you are watching 4k video on Netflix it counts as 2 streams
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Far more people are streaming Netflix and Amazon in 4k than even care about 4k in the first place... just because 4k TVs will stream in 4k if the provider and plan offers it. I'm a big fan of 4k (not so much HDR although it's alright), but even I don't watch much content in 4k because there just isn't that much content in 4k.
Heck I've been watching UHD content for over five years now. Over A year ago I hit the point that over 50% of what I what is in UHD.

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If you are watching 4k video on Netflix it counts as 2 streams
Since when? I've had four UHD streams going at once when I was testing it.

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Since when? I've had four UHD streams going at once when I was testing it.

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Netflix explanation for various plans. You sure the 4k streams weren’t being down graded to 1080p
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Netflix explanation for various plans. You sure the 4k streams weren’t being down graded to 1080p
They were each around a 12 to 15 Mbps encode being played.

Now this wasn't this year. It was sometime last year I did this testing. But I have been on the UHD tier since it was first around. Since I was initially upgraded to it for free for several years. But I didn't get my first UHD TV until 2015.
But even this year I had two UHD streams going concurrently with two HD streams at some point. If each UHD title counted as two streams then that wouldn't have even been possible either.

Sent from my Nexus 7(32GB)
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Heck I've been watching UHD content for over five years now. Over A year ago I hit the point that over 50% of what I what is in UHD.
What are you watching? I can't find that much UHD content.

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They were each around a 12 to 15 Mbps encode being played.

Now this wasn't this year. It was sometime last year I did this testing. But I have been on the UHD tier since it was first around. Since I was initially upgraded to it for free for several years. But I didn't get my first UHD TV until 2015.
But even this year I had two UHD streams going concurrently with two HD streams at some point. If each UHD title counted as two streams then that wouldn't have even been possible either.

Sent from my Nexus 7(32GB)
Yeah, that makes no sense, I feel like that came from some documentation about calculating bandwidth required, not the number of streams they will allow you to stream at once given you have a ~100mbps connection or faster.
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Kinda drifting a bit OT.

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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
What are you watching? I can't find that much UHD content.







Yeah, that makes no sense, I feel like that came from some documentation about calculating bandwidth required, not the number of streams they will allow you to stream at once given you have a ~100mbps connection or faster.
It's been over fours years of watching UHD for me not five. I've been watching UHD BDs, and UHD content from Netflix, Amazon, Vudu etc.

And I wish I could add ATSC 3.0 to that list. But even 1080P and HDR should be miles better with ATSC 3.0 than what is broadcast now OTA.
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post #2249 of 2257 Old 12-05-2019, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
It's been over fours years of watching UHD for me not five. I've been watching UHD BDs, and UHD content from Netflix, Amazon, Vudu etc.

And I wish I could add ATSC 3.0 to that list. But even 1080P and HDR should be miles better with ATSC 3.0 than what is broadcast now OTA.
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I watch some 4k content, there just isn't that much out there, and several content sources don't offer it at all. Even most of what's on YouTube isn't 4k. Netflix has the most, but the majority of what I watch on there is still 1080p. Their 1080p is great, it's just not 4k, and that extra sharpness really ads to the experience. I just want better VQ in general with HEVC, HDR doesn't do much for me. I've watched some movies and a few shows in 4k HDR, and it rarely impresses me over regular 4k, although maybe I'd get more out of a newer TV. My 2015 Samsung JS850D can do HDR10, but I'm not sure it can display the full range of HDR, and it can't do HDR10+ or DV at all.
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post #2250 of 2257 Old 12-05-2019, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
They were each around a 12 to 15 Mbps encode being played.

Now this wasn't this year. It was sometime last year I did this testing. But I have been on the UHD tier since it was first around. Since I was initially upgraded to it for free for several years. But I didn't get my first UHD TV until 2015.
But even this year I had two UHD streams going concurrently with two HD streams at some point. If each UHD title counted as two streams then that wouldn't have even been possible either.

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Most of the time “up to 4 steams” is used. A little google research says 4 stream of just 4k content is possible, but a 4k HDR counts as 2. 4k without HDR isn’t suitable to my taste 🤔. Netflix is supposedly testing an Ultra plan that allows 6 streams & allowing 4 4k HDR streams. I seem to remember you implying that you were a betta tester for the Premium plan, maybe Netflix has made you an Ultra tester.
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