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post #2251 of 2521 Old 12-06-2019, 06:49 AM
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Ok, guys. This isn't a Netflix thread. Let's get back to ATSC 3.0 please.
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post #2252 of 2521 Old 12-06-2019, 07:05 AM
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Attendees of the Consumer Electronics Show next month in Las Vegas may watch KSNV in ATSC 3.0. The station has applied for a STA to use channel 33 for the duration of the convention with a 42kw trans. Their normal ATSC 1.0 signal will not be affected on rf 22 virtual 3.
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post #2253 of 2521 Old 12-06-2019, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
I watch some 4k content, there just isn't that much out there, and several content sources don't offer it at all. Even most of what's on YouTube isn't 4k. Netflix has the most, but the majority of what I watch on there is still 1080p. Their 1080p is great, it's just not 4k, and that extra sharpness really ads to the experience. I just want better VQ in general with HEVC, HDR doesn't do much for me. I've watched some movies and a few shows in 4k HDR, and it rarely impresses me over regular 4k, although maybe I'd get more out of a newer TV. My 2015 Samsung JS850D can do HDR10, but I'm not sure it can display the full range of HDR, and it can't do HDR10+ or DV at all.
Most of what I watch on youtube is in 2160P. Last night I watched several videos from Linus Tech Tips on Youtube. They were all in 4K.

But I don't watch Youtube very often. I might go weeks without watching anything on Youtube. Then watch several hours of Youtube over a few days. Like last night. I watched 4K videos on Youtube for around an hour.

If ATSC 3.0 will allow 2160P videos like on youtube on broadcast, that would be great.
I just hope that each station will at least have one 1080P HDR stream that is not bistarved and over compressed. Because I am sick of the terrible OTA quality here in the DC area we currently have, from all the broadcasters. Everything just looked so much better years ago.

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post #2254 of 2521 Old 12-06-2019, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
Ok, guys. This isn't a Netflix thread. Let's get back to ATSC 3.0 please.
Any recent color you can provide from your broadcast industry contacts -- what does their thinking look like with regard to ATSC 3.0 as we head into 2020? And/or what does your thinking look like? Seen/read/heard anything to make you more or less optimistic on its outlook?
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post #2255 of 2521 Old 12-06-2019, 05:11 PM
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I remember discussions before the first transition, 20 years ago, about how expensive all this digital equipment was for local stations.

Not just transmitters but switches, editing hardware, the whole production chain.

That was with a mandate and more viewers than now. But gradually they made the transition, even some of the smaller stations.

Now, no mandate, smaller number of viewers and overwhelming indifference to PQ not to mention a lot more competition for video content while the networks which supply content to these stations seem to have little or no interest in supporting the new formats.

So as an outsider, I don’t see why they’d bother. The carrot for them is suppose to be a business model which only seems to work for Google and FB, so no proven business case for them to make a big commitment to 3.0, unless the station is opened by an entity like Sinclair which has a big economic interest in 3.0.
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post #2256 of 2521 Old 12-06-2019, 08:57 PM
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Another 3.0 set top box is available for purchase in South Korea, this time made by Lowasis. It runs Android TV and costs ~$180 before any finders' fees and shipping costs are accounted for. Further there are no EDID check restrictions to deal with..... might snag one up in 2 or 3 months, I've got cash tied up in something else for the interim

Images of the box, its packaging, and the UI (warning: Korean language only) here: https://dvdprime.com/g2/bbs/board.ph...375703&sca=UHD
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post #2257 of 2521 Old 12-07-2019, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kc9pke View Post
Another 3.0 set top box is available for purchase in South Korea, this time made by Lowasis. It runs Android TV and costs ~$180 before any finders' fees and shipping costs are accounted for. Further there are no EDID check restrictions to deal with..... might snag one up in 2 or 3 months, I've got cash tied up in something else for the interim

Images of the box, its packaging, and the UI (warning: Korean language only) here: https://dvdprime.com/g2/bbs/board.ph...375703&sca=UHD
People need to be very careful of Korean products because a purely Korean product will not play back American 3.0. They have to be made to receive both markets or just the American one to work here. I've had a couple of calls from folks who bought Korean boxes and then called the station with "why can't I get your station" questions.
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post #2259 of 2521 Old 12-15-2019, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
Most of what I watch on youtube is in 2160P. Last night I watched several videos from Linus Tech Tips on Youtube. They were all in 4K.
It depends on the channel. The tech-centric ones are more likely to be 4k. I watch a lot of car and hiking videos. Some car stuff is 4k, most isn't, I haven't seen much hiking stuff in 4k. I don't think they have reliable enough bandwidth while traveling to be able to upload reliably in 4k. I also watch some train related content, and some of it is 4k, but most of it is not.

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I just hope that each station will at least have one 1080P HDR stream that is not bistarved and over compressed. Because I am sick of the terrible OTA quality here in the DC area we currently have, from all the broadcasters. Everything just looked so much better years ago.
HDR doesn't do much for me. Maybe it's my 2015 Samsung J850D, but I just don't get much out of it in most cases, the one notable exception being The Revenant. I agree on OTA bitrates in general, however, so little good content is OTA anymore except for PBS that I sort of don't care anymore. Luckily my local PBS increased their bitrate to around 12mbps after having unused bandwidth for a while.
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post #2260 of 2521 Old 12-15-2019, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
It depends on the channel. The tech-centric ones are more likely to be 4k. I watch a lot of car and hiking videos. Some car stuff is 4k, most isn't, I haven't seen much hiking stuff in 4k. I don't think they have reliable enough bandwidth while traveling to be able to upload reliably in 4k. I also watch some train related content, and some of it is 4k, but most of it is not.
I do searches for 4K because there is some good demo material in 4K on YouTube. I also turn on their Stats for Nerds to see how it's doing streaming wise. They like to stream 4K up around 24 Mbps. It's VP9 of course not HEVC. I've even uploaded videos in 4K.


As far as HDR goes we're had 24 bit computer monitors for years which is much better than HDR which is only 10 or 12 bit.
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post #2261 of 2521 Old 12-16-2019, 01:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NashGuy View Post
Any recent color you can provide from your broadcast industry contacts -- what does their thinking look like with regard to ATSC 3.0 as we head into 2020? And/or what does your thinking look like? Seen/read/heard anything to make you more or less optimistic on its outlook?


Quote:
Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
I remember discussions before the first transition, 20 years ago, about how expensive all this digital equipment was for local stations.



Not just transmitters but switches, editing hardware, the whole production chain.



That was with a mandate and more viewers than now. But gradually they made the transition, even some of the smaller stations.



Now, no mandate, smaller number of viewers and overwhelming indifference to PQ not to mention a lot more competition for video content while the networks which supply content to these stations seem to have little or no interest in supporting the new formats.



So as an outsider, I don’t see why they’d bother. The carrot for them is suppose to be a business model which only seems to work for Google and FB, so no proven business case for them to make a big commitment to 3.0, unless the station is opened by an entity like Sinclair which has a big economic interest in 3.0.


So I was going to ask the “will 2020 be the exciting year 3.0 happens in USA “ ... and see my Q and it’s A posted.
Thx, I’ll check back Dec-2020, maybe 2021 will be the year


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post #2262 of 2521 Old 12-16-2019, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post
I do searches for 4K because there is some good demo material in 4K on YouTube. I also turn on their Stats for Nerds to see how it's doing streaming wise. They like to stream 4K up around 24 Mbps. It's VP9 of course not HEVC. I've even uploaded videos in 4K.


As far as HDR goes we're had 24 bit computer monitors for years which is much better than HDR which is only 10 or 12 bit.
24 bit computer monitors are actually only 8 bits each for the red, green, and blue video components.
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post #2263 of 2521 Old 12-17-2019, 11:20 AM
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The YouTube guy AntennaMan just posted a background video about ATSC 3.0. Perhaps a little basic for this crowd but I found it interesting.

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post #2264 of 2521 Old 12-17-2019, 11:30 AM
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24 bit computer monitors are actually only 8 bits each for the red, green, and blue video components.
And 3 x 8 = 24 bits. The total bits for HDR is either 10 or 12 bits depending on the method. Most 4K cameras are only 16 bit. Computer monitor color is called True Color.


The thought I have about this transition is will some or even many metropolitan stations go dark because ad revenue is falling and they might not have the funds for the transition.
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post #2265 of 2521 Old 12-17-2019, 04:41 PM
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The YouTube guy AntennaMan just posted a background video about ATSC 3.0. Perhaps a little basic for this crowd but I found it interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EewIWWddPtI&t=3s
EXCELLENT video.
Thanks!
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post #2266 of 2521 Old 12-17-2019, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post
And 3 x 8 = 24 bits. The total bits for HDR is either 10 or 12 bits depending on the method. Most 4K cameras are only 16 bit. Computer monitor color is called True Color.


The thought I have about this transition is will some or even many metropolitan stations go dark because ad revenue is falling and they might not have the funds for the transition.
HDR10 is 10 bits each for red, blue, green. Dolby Vision is 12 bits per. There are no 12 bit 4k panels so DV is effectively 10 bit. SDR is 8 bit per. An SDR panel cannot show the true red color of a Coke can, got to have HDR to show it.
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HDR10 is 10 bits each for red, blue, green. Dolby Vision is 12 bits per. There are no 12 bit 4k panels so DV is effectively 10 bit. SDR is 8 bit per. An SDR panel cannot show the true red color of a Coke can, got to have HDR to show it.
HDR is YUV color space not RGB. But if you really want to get confused try reading articles and debates on forums about the difference.
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post #2268 of 2521 Old 12-18-2019, 03:54 PM
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That was an interesting video. His side by side tests showed an improvement with multi-path which is the one benefit I'm looking forward to. I wonder if we'll see any affordable tuners hit the market next year.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post
I do searches for 4K because there is some good demo material in 4K on YouTube. I also turn on their Stats for Nerds to see how it's doing streaming wise. They like to stream 4K up around 24 Mbps. It's VP9 of course not HEVC. I've even uploaded videos in 4K.
I've uploaded stuff in 4k as well. The first few generations of 4k cameras were 2160p30, which doesn't look nearly as good as 1080p60, but now that they can do 2160p60 it's pretty good. There is definitely some 4k content out there, just not the majority of content IME.

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As far as HDR goes we're had 24 bit computer monitors for years which is much better than HDR which is only 10 or 12 bit.
I don't feel like it needs anything more, it just doesn't really do anything to enhance the experience for me in most cases. I'd say that Mindhunter might be another exception to add to The Revenant, but those are the exceptions to the rule.
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I'm not really against HDR, I just don't see any value in it. I don't see it being much of a selling point, it's just something that TVs do now. I don't think we're any better or worse off for it except for those rare movies or shows that really show it off, then it's kinda cool. I think 4k is a real improvement over 1080p and much more noticeable, but the reality is that the majority of content is still 720p, 1080i, or 1080p.
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post #2271 of 2521 Old 12-23-2019, 01:43 PM
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As far as HDR goes we're had 24 bit computer monitors for years which is much better than HDR which is only 10 or 12 bit.
That's ten bits per channel. So HDR is 30 bit and some monitors have 10/30 bit channels but most are 8/24 bit.

My take is that we'll eventually end up with 10k cameras that crop down to 8k (image stabilization) and then downsample to get a very HQ 4k picture. For sports I really hope [email protected] becomes the standard. HLG would be nice as well, as I think for some outdoor sports like ski/surf/etc. it does make a difference.

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That's ten bits per channel. So HDR is 30 bit and some monitors have 10/30 bit channels but most are 8/24 bit.

My take is that we'll eventually end up with 10k cameras that crop down to 8k (image stabilization) and then downsample to get a very HQ 4k picture. For sports I really hope [email protected] becomes the standard. HLG would be nice as well, as I think for some outdoor sports like ski/surf/etc. it does make a difference.
Maybe in Japan or Europe.
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I don't feel like it needs anything more, it just doesn't really do anything to enhance the experience for me in most cases. I'd say that Mindhunter might be another exception to add to The Revenant, but those are the exceptions to the rule.
WCG (Wide Color Gamut) typically comes along with HDR, and I do think that WCG makes a significant difference. Just more pop to the colors, and you can see shades that exist in the real world but have never been available on TVs before WCG. As for the intense highlights that HDR itself allows, yeah, that doesn't make a huge difference to me (and in some cases, when misused, it actually makes the content painful to watch). Although I think HDR may allow for greater shadow detail, which is a plus.
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Again, we're getting a bit off-topic.

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Again, we're getting a bit off-topic.
If it wasn’t for these occasional off topic discussions this forum would be pretty much dead 🤔
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BTW, AVS Forum has a forum devoted to this:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-h...lor-gamut-wcg/


Now go learn how arcane HDR and YUV encoding is.
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If it wasn’t for these occasional off topic discussions this forum would be pretty much dead 🤔
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ITU Adopts ATSC 3.0 As Recommended Digital Broadcast Standard


“With initial U.S. deployments in place, we’re anticipating the first announcements of consumer receivers for the U.S. market in the coming days,” said ATSC Board Chairman and NAB Senior Vice President of Technology Lynn Claudy.


I suspect and hope that we'll see some ATSC 3.0 tuners displayed at CES next week.
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Do they also recommend the other systems used in Europe and so on?
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post #2280 of 2521 Old 01-02-2020, 09:07 PM
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Do they also recommend the other systems used in Europe and so on?
IIRC, the ITU has been trying to get all the countries in the EEU onto the same television standards page for about 60 years now.
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