Atsc 3.0 - Page 86 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 1565Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #2551 of 2611 Old 03-17-2020, 11:10 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Brian Conrad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Martinez, CA, USA
Posts: 8,439
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2501 Post(s)
Liked: 2183
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenthplanet View Post
Is the public really ready for HDR, will they adjust their TVs or will they just give up and complain on the internet..
FYI, I have a TCL Roku 4K TV that's only SDR but they have a good HDR->SDR algorithm running so I'm not seem much of any "crushes".
Brian Conrad is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2552 of 2611 Old 03-17-2020, 12:41 PM
UHD Addict
 
aaronwt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Northern VA(Woodbridge)
Posts: 36,675
Mentioned: 74 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9820 Post(s)
Liked: 6490
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJeff View Post
I also see this re-encode as a drawback. I'm hopeful that the ATSC 3.0 HEVC is efficient enough that this is no longer necessary. I think a majority of the individual services (PLPs) will be just a few mb at the most for a standard HD feed. That should be small enough to easily move around a normal Wi-Fi network.

I wonder if there is any work going into a ATSC 3.0 DVR that could transfer recordings to the phone. I'm guessing this would require some type of on-phone cellular data user account authentication and maybe even a DMA contained geo-fence. Could be useful for commutes or the gym though! If they really want to compete with the SVOD players who make downloading simple, and ATSC 3.0 chips on phones not yet a reality, some kind of mobility solution will be needed.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk
What work would be needed? Aside from copy protection stuff, you would stream it to you phone the way it is done now. I know my Samsung phone has no problem decoding an HEVC stream.

EDIT: I missed that you said transfer. I don't transfer anything to my phone. I watch it by streaming. Like the Superbowl upscaled UHD/HDR broadcast I recorded. I have no problem streaming it to my cell phone in it's UHD resolution with HDR using Plex. It's only around a 23Mb/s bitrate using HEVC. That is no issue streaming over Verizon Wireless prepaid for me in the DC area. IN most areas I frequent, I can get over 100Mb/s throughput with some areas over 200 Mb/s. And some areas with only 50Mb/s bitrates.
BiggAW likes this.

57TB unRAID1a--49TB unRAID2--76TB unRAID3
TCL 6 Series--Sony UBP-X800--Philips BDP7502--Onkyo HT-S7800
XBL/PSN: WormholeXtreme

Last edited by aaronwt; 03-17-2020 at 12:52 PM.
aaronwt is online now  
post #2553 of 2611 Old 03-19-2020, 06:30 AM
Rgb
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Rgb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 8,576
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 765 Post(s)
Liked: 1019
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post
FYI, I have a TCL Roku 4K TV that's only SDR but they have a good HDR->SDR algorithm running so I'm not seem much of any "crushes".
What is the model number?
Rgb is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2554 of 2611 Old 03-19-2020, 06:34 AM
Rgb
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Rgb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 8,576
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 765 Post(s)
Liked: 1019
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
That's not totally true, and it depends on the market and what channels are available, who is sharing with whom, etc. I predict that we will see little, if any 4k OTA broadcasting, because broadcasting a bunch of channels in 720p or 1080p is going to be more profitable, but we'll see. I could be wrong there.



You don't seem to get it. The quality of 1080p or 1080p HDR broadcasts in HEVC will likely be significantly better than 1.0 broadcasts that are over-compressed to put multiple HDs on each station.

.

+100x This

MPEG2 wasn't meant to handle the low bitrates ATSC1.0 is forced to use, especially from all the low rent broadcasters that have popped up carrying 3-7 subchannels, with ridiculous blocky artifacts

I wouldn't mind one ATSC3 4K channel for the major networks, then take advantage of HEVC's far superior compression/quality to carry many 720p/1080p subs.

Heck, if all subchannels were anamorphic 480p HDR, I think a lot of us would be pretty happy with a large number of subchannels that would enable with HEVC ATSC3.0, especially since subchannels are usually vintage 4x3 and/or 480i material

Even if the main network channel was HEVC 1080p HDR, it would be a big win vs MPEG2 1080i SDR, killing interlaced video for good.
BiggAW likes this.

Last edited by Rgb; 03-20-2020 at 02:55 AM.
Rgb is offline  
post #2555 of 2611 Old 03-19-2020, 10:35 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Brian Conrad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Martinez, CA, USA
Posts: 8,439
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2501 Post(s)
Liked: 2183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rgb View Post
What is the model number?
55US57-W. It's the Walmart version and the 55US57 was also the door prize on AVS Forum back then (fall 2016).
Brian Conrad is offline  
post #2556 of 2611 Old 03-19-2020, 10:59 AM
Rgb
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Rgb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 8,576
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 765 Post(s)
Liked: 1019
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post
55US57-W. It's the Walmart version and the 55US57 was also the door prize on AVS Forum back then (fall 2016).
THanks- nice to know models with good builtin HDR>SDR conversion.

Last edited by Rgb; 03-20-2020 at 02:51 AM.
Rgb is offline  
post #2557 of 2611 Old 03-22-2020, 06:19 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tenthplanet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: North of Mexico, South of Oregon, West of desert
Posts: 6,906
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2431 Post(s)
Liked: 3951
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rgb View Post
+100x This

MPEG2 wasn't meant to handle the low bitrates ATSC1.0 is forced to use, especially from all the low rent broadcasters that have popped up carrying 3-7 subchannels, with ridiculous blocky artifacts

I wouldn't mind one ATSC3 4K channel for the major networks, then take advantage of HEVC's far superior compression/quality to carry many 720p/1080p subs.

Heck, if all subchannels were anamorphic 480p HDR, I think a lot of us would be pretty happy with a large number of subchannels that would enable with HEVC ATSC3.0, especially since subchannels are usually vintage 4x3 and/or 480i material

Even if the main network channel was HEVC 1080p HDR, it would be a big win vs MPEG2 1080i SDR, killing interlaced video for good.
I think the era of digi-net expansion is done with and with it the growth of subchannels, there is battle for ad dollars coming. The big guys with the popular channels are safe, ME-TV is safe but Antenna TV, Grit, Charge and few others won't make it through the ATSC 3.0 era. That's free's up some room right there.

"Espresso is like tequila, when in doubt apply more shots."
tenthplanet is offline  
post #2558 of 2611 Old 03-23-2020, 06:15 AM
Advanced Member
 
nathill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 866
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 276 Post(s)
Liked: 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenthplanet View Post
I think the era of digi-net expansion is done with and with it the growth of subchannels, there is battle for ad dollars coming. The big guys with the popular channels are safe, ME-TV is safe but Antenna TV, Grit, Charge and few others won't make it through the ATSC 3.0 era. That's free's up some room right there.

Do you mean during the transition period from 1.0 to 3.0 when both will be broadcasting?
I would think that when 3.0 is (finally) the standard, there would be plenty of room for all sorts of SD subchannels.
aaronwt, rdvegas, BiggAW and 1 others like this.
nathill is offline  
post #2559 of 2611 Old 03-24-2020, 04:34 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tenthplanet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: North of Mexico, South of Oregon, West of desert
Posts: 6,906
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2431 Post(s)
Liked: 3951
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathill View Post
Do you mean during the transition period from 1.0 to 3.0 when both will be broadcasting?
I would think that when 3.0 is (finally) the standard, there would be plenty of room for all sorts of SD subchannels.
I predict digi-net collapse/consolidation before the final transition and that in turn negates the need for sub-channels. The survivors might actually have decent picture quality, something that seems to go going down the drain right now.

"Espresso is like tequila, when in doubt apply more shots."
tenthplanet is offline  
post #2560 of 2611 Old 03-24-2020, 05:35 PM
Advanced Member
 
nathill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 866
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 276 Post(s)
Liked: 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenthplanet View Post
I predict digi-net collapse/consolidation before the final transition and that in turn negates the need for sub-channels. The survivors might actually have decent picture quality, something that seems to go going down the drain right now.

I predict sub-channels will always be around and picture quality will always take a back seat to increased station profitability.
ATSC 3.0 will let them squeeze even more onto one frequency.

But I'm often a glass half-empty kind of guy!
nathill is offline  
post #2561 of 2611 Old 03-24-2020, 06:15 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tenthplanet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: North of Mexico, South of Oregon, West of desert
Posts: 6,906
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2431 Post(s)
Liked: 3951
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathill View Post
I predict sub-channels will always be around and picture quality will always take a back seat to increased station profitability.
ATSC 3.0 will let them squeeze even more onto one frequency.

But I'm often a glass half-empty kind of guy!
OTT will be the new sub-channels, don't forget the large and growing no OTA cordcutters. Katz and Weigel will see the (advertising) writing on the wall.
joblo and Mark12547 like this.

"Espresso is like tequila, when in doubt apply more shots."
tenthplanet is offline  
post #2562 of 2611 Old 03-24-2020, 07:01 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tenthplanet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: North of Mexico, South of Oregon, West of desert
Posts: 6,906
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2431 Post(s)
Liked: 3951
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathill View Post
I predict sub-channels will always be around and picture quality will always take a back seat to increased station profitability.
ATSC 3.0 will let them squeeze even more onto one frequency.

But I'm often a glass half-empty kind of guy!

Some say .."The glass is half-full"
Some say.. "The glass is half-empty"

Am I only who sees "The glass is the wrong damn size"


Variation ..
Pessimists .."The glass is half-empty"
Optimists.. "The glass is half-full"
Engineers... "The glass is out of spec"
joblo, aaronwt, DrDon and 1 others like this.

"Espresso is like tequila, when in doubt apply more shots."
tenthplanet is offline  
post #2563 of 2611 Old 03-25-2020, 10:29 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Brian Conrad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Martinez, CA, USA
Posts: 8,439
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2501 Post(s)
Liked: 2183
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenthplanet View Post
Some say .."The glass is half-full"
Some say.. "The glass is half-empty"

Am I only who sees "The glass is the wrong damn size"


Variation ..
Pessimists .."The glass is half-empty"
Optimists.. "The glass is half-full"
Engineers... "The glass is out of spec"
Kinda was feeling that something might come along to delay this project just like WWII delayed TV itself (there were tests of TV in the 1930s). That "something" may be here.
Brian Conrad is offline  
post #2564 of 2611 Old 03-26-2020, 09:24 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
BiggAW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Hartford-New Haven
Posts: 2,480
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 984 Post(s)
Liked: 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenthplanet View Post
I predict digi-net collapse/consolidation before the final transition and that in turn negates the need for sub-channels. The survivors might actually have decent picture quality, something that seems to go going down the drain right now.
If they can find even a small audience, they'll grind out ad revenue. Or have a loop of the radar, or extra re-hashings of news segments or something that's conducive to live TV. If they can do subchannels, they will. There's still a lot of people who flip on the TV and see what's on.
nathill likes this.
BiggAW is offline  
post #2565 of 2611 Old 03-26-2020, 09:42 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tenthplanet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: North of Mexico, South of Oregon, West of desert
Posts: 6,906
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2431 Post(s)
Liked: 3951
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
If they can find even a small audience, they'll grind out ad revenue. Or have a loop of the radar, or extra re-hashings of news segments or something that's conducive to live TV. If they can do subchannels, they will. There's still a lot of people who flip on the TV and see what's on.
A local news segment loop would actually be useful and that you can sell to local advertisers. But most what used to be national advertising will go to the internet.

"Espresso is like tequila, when in doubt apply more shots."
tenthplanet is offline  
post #2566 of 2611 Old 03-27-2020, 08:29 AM
Super Moderator
 
DrDon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Metro Detroit, Tampa Bay
Posts: 17,487
Mentioned: 43 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2445 Post(s)
Liked: 4785
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenthplanet View Post
A local news segment loop would actually be useful and that you can sell to local advertisers. But most what used to be national advertising will go to the internet.
Been there, tried that.

Locally, there aren't enough subchannel viewers to monetize. Stations wound up giving away the inventory as value-added: Buy a package on the main and get the subchannel for free. Add in the expense of producing the content and you have a real money loser. However... collect a couple hundred subchannels and lump them together and NOW you have enough numbers to sell. That's the diginet business model. Rent the subchannels from the stations, supply programming, then sell it, nationally. Stations still get a few minutes per hour of local inventory they still give away as value-added.

Meanwhile, that news loop programming has moved to stations' websites where it DOES attract enough of an audience to sell to local advertisers (still largely value-added) and to the Googleverse of targeted advertising. It's also more user-friendly. On a subchannel, you tune in in the middle of something. On the website, most of it is on-demand, starting from the beginning.

I've seen stations try weather loops, news loops, ABC News Now... all failed. I think WeatherNation is still going on some diginets, but they don't lease the subchannel. If you're a station owner, you go with what makes money. COZI beats WeatherNation any day of the week in that regard.

For station groups that front their own diginets, it's even better in that they don't have to lease the subchannels from their owned stations - or if they do, it's just numbers moving from one side of the ledger to the other.

Bottom line (pun intended), instead of locally producing programming for a subchannel with a net zero ROI, the station gets revenue from the subchannel leasing and revenue from OTT news programming on their websites.
Trip in VA, mattdp, BiggAW and 2 others like this.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.

Last edited by DrDon; 03-27-2020 at 08:33 AM.
DrDon is offline  
post #2567 of 2611 Old 03-27-2020, 08:35 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
BiggAW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Hartford-New Haven
Posts: 2,480
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 984 Post(s)
Liked: 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
Bottom line (pun intended), instead of locally producing programming for a subchannel with a net zero ROI, the station gets revenue from the subchannel leasing and revenue from OTT news programming on their websites.
Great insight. A lot of those are also back catalog, so the programming cost is relatively low. The top 10-20 markets are probably holding the whole thing up too since the subchannels are in many markets, not just the small ones.
BiggAW is offline  
post #2568 of 2611 Old 03-27-2020, 08:47 AM
Super Moderator
 
DrDon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Metro Detroit, Tampa Bay
Posts: 17,487
Mentioned: 43 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2445 Post(s)
Liked: 4785
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
A lot of those are also back catalog, so the programming cost is relatively low. The top 10-20 markets are probably holding the whole thing up too since the subchannels are in many markets, not just the small ones.
Precisely!
BiggAW likes this.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
DrDon is offline  
post #2569 of 2611 Old 03-28-2020, 04:07 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
wco81's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 8,132
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2583 Post(s)
Liked: 1036
Are the economics of syndication on local channels anywhere near they used to be?

Will there ever be a $1 billion syndication deal for shows like Seinfeld or whichever shows were setting records?

That should be a barometer of the potential market for any kind of OTA now.
wco81 is online now  
post #2570 of 2611 Old 03-29-2020, 03:49 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tenthplanet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: North of Mexico, South of Oregon, West of desert
Posts: 6,906
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2431 Post(s)
Liked: 3951
Quote:
Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
Are the economics of syndication on local channels anywhere near they used to be?

Will there ever be a $1 billion syndication deal for shows like Seinfeld or whichever shows were setting records?

That should be a barometer of the potential market for any kind of OTA now.
The last big one was (no pun intended) 'The Big Bang Theory', mostly what's in the syndication pipeline are talk shows and game shows. A number of major markets TV stations have been increasing their news hours.

Except for the occasional Chuck Lorre comedy, syndication is changing.

"Espresso is like tequila, when in doubt apply more shots."
tenthplanet is offline  
post #2571 of 2611 Old 03-30-2020, 04:00 PM
Member
 
BigJeff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Bloomington, IL
Posts: 165
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 33
https://tvnewscheck.com/article/top-...tgen-tv-plans/

COVID-19 Delays, Not Derails, NextGen TV Plans

Las Vegas and Portland, Ore. will light up their NextGen TV markets in June from their initially-slated late April launch, but the broadcasters and coalition driving the new industry standard forward say major launches will still move ahead this year. The launches will coincide with the arrival in retail stores of the first 3.0-capable sets. Above, six LG sets will bear the NextGen TV logo, including the 55-, 65- and 77-inch class GX Gallery Series 4K Ultra HD models.
By Glen Dickson | March 30, 2020 | 5:30 a.m. ET.
The 2020 rollout of the ATSC 3.0 next-generation standard across the U.S. is still on track, say industry insiders, despite suffering a few short-term hiccups due to the COVID-19 pandemic. Simulcasts of all the major networks in the new standard are slated to be on-air in Las Vegas and Portland, Ore., by early June — about the same time the first 3.0-capable sets will be hitting retail shelves.

They will be bolstered by 3.0 launches in Pittsburgh, Nashville, Salt Lake City and Charleston, S.C., in the first half of 2020, with other big markets including Seattle, San Antonio, Austin and Tampa scheduled to turn on in the second half of the year.

At last year’s NAB Show the country’s biggest broadcasters joined forces to announce they would begin 3.0 broadcasts in the top 40 markets by the end of 2020. Since then, set makers and broadcasters have agreed on the “NextGen TV” consumer brand, a handful of low-power stations have launched 3.0 and the stations in the Phoenix Model Market have produced a detailed 3.0 launch manual.

But details on the national rollout have been scarce, and to date, only 24 applications to broadcast 3.0 have been filed with the FCC. So the industry was looking to NAB 2020 as the place to get more clarity — until the annual convention was canceled on March 11.

The 3.0 stations in Las Vegas and Portland were initially aiming to be on air by April 20, in time for the NAB Show, say executives from Sinclair Broadcast Group and Nexstar Media. But with the goal of NAB removed and vendors unable to travel to stations to install equipment, those launches have been pushed back until after the May sweeps. Las Vegas is now scheduled to turn on May 26 and Portland on June 9.

“It was not realistic to maintain the original launch dates without putting people at risk,” says John Hane, president of Spectrum Co., the coalition founded by Sinclair and Nexstar to help monetize 3.0.


Spectrum Co.’s John Hane

But Hane says that despite the challenge of COVID-19, launches in Pittsburgh, Nashville, Salt Lake City and Charleston are still planned for the first half of 2020.

“We’re holding all of our other dates, and we’re not preemptively moving any dates,” Hane says. “We’re going to try to distort reality, if we can.”

Sinclair and Nexstar were looking to launch 3.0 in 20 markets together this year, says Jerry Fritz, EVP of ONEMedia, the Sinclair subsidiary focused on the 3.0 rollout. That number may “be a little bit pushed back because of coronavirus,” he says, and was independent of 3.0 launches that might be done by stations from other groups belonging to the Pearl TV coalition, which counts Cox, E.W. Scripps, Graham Media, Gray, Hearst, Meredith and Tegna as members along with Nexstar and Sinclair (Sinclair just joined in February).

For its part, Pearl TV was still “ballparking 30 or 40 markets by the end of the year” before the COVID-19 crisis struck, says Pearl TV Executive Director Anne Schelle. While the long-term impact of COVID-19 on the industry is unclear, she says the 3.0 work is still continuing.

“There are a lot of other markets like Portland teed up, with agreements done,” Schelle says.

Portland Sets Precedent

Portland, the No. 22 DMA, is unique in that it is the first top-25 market to file formal applications with the FCC to launch 3.0 with programming from all six major networks right from the start (Phoenix, which also has all of the networks participating, started as a trial with experimental licenses). It also is launching 3.0 with the help of two duopolies: Nexstar’s KRCW, a CW affiliate, and KOIN (CBS); and Meredith’s KPDX (MyNetworkTV) and KPTV (Fox).


ONEMedia’s Jerry Fritz

KRCW and KPDX will serve as the 3.0 host stations, between them carrying simulcasts of HD feeds from the major networks as well as PBS. Five other stations in the market are teaming up to host the existing 1.0 programming from KRCW and KPDX through complex “channel-stacking” agreements.

“Why Portland?” says Nexstar EVP and CTO Brett Jenkins. “We really just had the right mix of willing participants. That’s a piece of what has to happen here. You have got to have enough stations in a market to go all in and say we’re actually going to do this, and we’re going to go ahead and apply to change the license.”

Broadcasters unanimously say that the difficult part of launching 3.0 isn’t the new technology involved but the business and legal agreements that have to be worked out on a market-by-market basis between networks and syndicators and the stations carrying their content, as well as between the stations themselves.

Channel Stacking


Pearl TV’s Anne Schelle

While new deals are required for stations to broadcast network programming in 3.0, the far thornier issue has been figuring out where to move 1.0 programming in order to free up capacity on host stations to launch 3.0. Local stations have also had to convince the networks that such “channel stacking” won’t have a negative impact on picture quality, though 3.0 insiders say the networks are being flexible.

“Everybody’s in a learning mode, especially with things like football,” Fritz says. “Fox, NBC and CBS want to ensure that the quality of sports programming is not diminished. So we’re showing them what the picture quality is going to look like with the new encoders, whether it’s doing one HD and six SDs or two HDs and four SDs.”

Hane agrees: “The networks understand we’re going to be stacking up HDs, and they’re fine with that.”

Channel stacking spreads the legacy 1.0 programming from the ATSC 3.0 host, or hosts, in a market across statistical multiplexes, or “statmuxes,” at several stations, using the latest generation of MPEG-2 encoders from vendors like Harmonic and Ateme to aggressively compress HD network and SD diginet programming. With each 1.0 station having a 19.4 megabit-per-second payload, HD network fare has traditionally been broadcast at 10 to 14 Mbps with SD diginets getting 2 to 3 Mbps each. But channel-stacking goes much further, often squeezing two HD channels along with multiple SD diginets into a single 6 MHz channel.

In Portland, for example, Sinclair’s KATU will be hosting KRCW’s 1.0 CW feed in 1080i HD alongside its existing ABC 720p HD feed and three 480i SD diginets. KRCW’s Antenna TV and ThisTV diginets will be hosted by sister station KOIN, alongside its existing CBS 1080i HD feed and two 480i diginets, while its third diginet, TBD, is slated to be carried by public broadcaster KOPB (that deal was still pending at press time).


Nexstar’s Brett Jenkins

Meanwhile, KPDX’s MyNetworkTV 720pHD feed and Bounce TV 480i diginet will be hosted by sister station KPTV, alongside its existing Fox 720p HD feed and three 480i diginets. Tegna’s KGW will host KPDX’s other two diginets, Escape and Grit, alongside its 1080i HD NBC feed and two 480i diginets.

The channel-stack at KPTV, with two HDs and four SDs, will be the most loaded in the Portland market and will be supported by Harmonic’s latest encoding platform, Electra X.

“The encoding technology has proved really beneficial and has really been the tool that’s allowed us to move stuff forward to make the lighthouse [3.0 station] a viable option,” says Meredith VP of Technology Tom Casey. “Even a couple years ago, we wouldn’t have been putting in the encoding parameters that we do today.”

Nexstar’s Jenkins agrees, and recalls demonstrating channel-stacking with the new MPEG-2 encoders to a chief engineer at one of Nexstar’s stations.

“This guy had been around for the first transition,” Jenkins says. “When we set up the air chain and showed him what it looks like, he said, ‘This actually looks better squeezed down than it used to at the higher bit rate.’”

As for the networks, Jenkins says some are more cautious than others. But he hopes the launch in Portland and other markets will provide real-world proof that channel stacking works.

“These early markets are going to be a way to demonstrate that we’re not going to hurt the business,” he says.

Early Broadcasts

As for the early 3.0 broadcasts, they will initially just be simulcasts of existing 720p and 1080i HD network programming. In Portland, KRCW will broadcast its own CW feed as well as CBS from KOIN, ABC from KATU and PBS from KOPB, while KPDX will broadcast MyNetworkTV as well as Fox from KPTV, NBC from KGW and PBS Encore from KOPB (the hosting of KOPB content is still awaiting final signoff). With a proposed modulation/coding scheme that will deliver 25 Mbps from each host 3.0 station, each commercial HD feed will initially be allocated around 7 Mbps while the PBS feeds will get around 3.6 Mbps, all using HEVC encoding.

Later in the year the 3.0 hosts could eventually offer 1080p 60 HD with high dynamic range (HDR), pending available content from the networks, and maybe even 4K UHD; Casey says that KPDX has already bought a 4K-capable encoder. But several broadcasters say the postponement of major league sports this spring, along with the 2020 Summer Olympics, will likely slow down the flow of 4K content.

“It’s a question of availability,” says Pearl’s Schelle. “We were hoping to do some stunting in different markets with 4K content.”

Work Moves Forward


Meredith’s Tom Casey

Despite the COVID-19 crisis, the ATSC organization will continue to work to support the launch of 3.0 in the U.S. while also advocating for the technology on a global basis, says ATSC President Madeleine Noland. While the ATSC Next Gen Broadcast conference scheduled for late May in Washington, D.C., has been postponed until August, the ATSC annual meeting will be still be held virtually on May 20.

And the work among various ATSC committees is moving forward, including Planning Team 7 on ATSC 3.0 Service Evolution Roadmap (PT-7), which is identifying what 3.0 services broadcasters will offer in 2021 and communicating that to receiver manufacturers.

“We in the standards development industry are very accustomed to working remotely,” Noland says. “Certainly there haven’t been zero disruptions, but we were lucky we didn’t have anything planned this spring or summer that required a physical presence as a standards development organization.”


ATSC’s Madeleine Noland

A major win for 3.0’s global aspirations came in January, Fritz says, when it was adopted as a recommended broadcast standard by the International Telecommunications Union (ITU). Sinclair, and the larger coalition of Spectrum Co., are also continuing to pursue other business opportunities for broadcasters’ 3.0 spectrum including providing data broadcasting for industries like transportation, Internet of Things (IoT) and energy.

Another promising application for 3.0 could be providing additional data capacity alongside wireless carriers and telcos for high-demand streaming content. Both Fritz and Schelle pointed to the impact COVID-19 was having on internet traffic, particularly in Europe. Leading streaming platforms like Netflix, Amazon and YouTube have all “throttled” their bitrates and switched to delivering SD video from HD and UHD after receiving political pressure to do so.

“The reason for that is it’s a one-to-one connection, a one-way stream, which is an extraordinarily inefficient way to deliver that video,” Fritz says. “One of the things ATSC 3.0 allows is to offload that data. So the broadcaster now sits at the 5G table along with everybody else. For those companies, wouldn’t it just be better to rent bits from broadcasters and offload that data?”
aaronwt likes this.
BigJeff is offline  
post #2572 of 2611 Old 03-30-2020, 06:02 PM
Advanced Member
 
nathill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 866
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 276 Post(s)
Liked: 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJeff View Post
https://tvnewscheck.com/article/top-...tgen-tv-plans/

COVID-19 Delays, Not Derails, NextGen TV Plans
Thanks! Very interesting reads. Things are moving faster than I would have expected given our country's current circumstances.


But I have some doubts about the whole process.
I wonder if any reasonably priced tuners will actually be available except the ones coming in high dollar televisions.
I wonder if most people even know or care what 1080p 60 HD with high dynamic range (HDR) means or will look like.
And, I wonder how much 4K stuff will ever actually be broadcast over broadcast television.


I guess I was born skeptical!

Last edited by DrDon; 03-31-2020 at 06:27 AM. Reason: Truncated quote
nathill is offline  
post #2573 of 2611 Old 03-30-2020, 06:08 PM
Senior Member
 
bobchase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 392
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 42
Samsung has 3.0 sets for sale right now on their website. We have ordered one for Phoenix.

We are experiencing some Technical Difficulties.
Please standby while we reboot our TV station...
bobchase is offline  
post #2574 of 2611 Old 03-31-2020, 06:37 AM
Advanced Member
 
nathill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 866
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 276 Post(s)
Liked: 176
Good for you bobchase.
Can't wait to hear your reports when you get it.


When I went to the Samsung website, they didn't even mentioned ATSC 3.0 in the specs of any TV I could find. They're apparently not very excited about it.
It may be I didn't navigate the site properly. That's been know to happen!
nathill is offline  
post #2575 of 2611 Old 03-31-2020, 09:07 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 16
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathill View Post
Thanks! Very interesting reads. Things are moving faster than I would have expected given our country's current circumstances.


But I have some doubts about the whole process.
I wonder if any reasonably priced tuners will actually be available except the ones coming in high dollar televisions.
I wonder if most people even know or care what 1080p 60 HD with high dynamic range (HDR) means or will look like.
And, I wonder how much 4K stuff will ever actually be broadcast over broadcast television.


I guess I was born skeptical!

Lets not get the cart before the horse and get all worked up about 4k and HDR.


I would be very pleased to have all major networks at 1080p, and subnets at 720 or 480 without compression artifacts making the them unwatchable.


Once we are there, then we figure out 4k if needed.


There will be tuners, but probably not this year. They won't be cheap at first, just like everything else.
aaronwt, BiggAW, nathill and 1 others like this.
ElevatorSkyMovie is offline  
post #2576 of 2611 Old 03-31-2020, 05:36 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
wco81's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 8,132
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2583 Post(s)
Liked: 1036
Do the networks even have 1080p masters?

Or is it mostly 720p and then they either broadcast in 720p or 1080i?
wco81 is online now  
post #2577 of 2611 Old 03-31-2020, 07:43 PM
Senior Member
 
dhett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Chandler AZ
Posts: 485
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked: 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathill View Post
When I went to the Samsung website, they didn't even mentioned ATSC 3.0 in the specs of any TV I could find. They're apparently not very excited about it.
It may be I didn't navigate the site properly. That's been know to happen!

It wasn't just you. I couldn't find anything for either ATSC 3.0 or NextGen. I had to look up the Samsung models from previous announcements, then search for those models. No matter - they're not in my price range anyway; not that I expected them to be.
nathill likes this.
dhett is offline  
post #2578 of 2611 Old 03-31-2020, 09:05 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 123
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Liked: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhett View Post
It wasn't just you. I couldn't find anything for either ATSC 3.0 or NextGen. I had to look up the Samsung models from previous announcements, then search for those models. No matter - they're not in my price range anyway; not that I expected them to be.
Bob and I must know how to use google a little better than the average user... try googling "site:samsung.com "NEXTGEN TV""

Using that, I found this: https://www.samsung.com/us/televisio...ir=Q900T#specs
kc9pke is offline  
post #2579 of 2611 Old 04-01-2020, 02:15 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sneals2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 7,873
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 478 Post(s)
Liked: 250
Quote:
Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
Do the networks even have 1080p masters?

Or is it mostly 720p and then they either broadcast in 720p or 1080i?
Almost certainly they will have 1080p or 2160p masters.

Whilst ABC and Fox are 720p in the US, the shows they commission or make for broadcast are also sold and broadcast internationally on 1080i broadcasters and sold to OTT platforms that stream 1080p and 2160p. It would make no sense to make documentary, drama, comedy etc. in 720p when there is almost no cost reason not to make it in 1080p. 720p won't meet a lot of broadcasters quality thresholds for acquisitions - so a 720p master would not be a great idea. These days more and more single-camera stuff is shot 2160p for UHD future-proofing too. (*)

Similarly a lot of live events and entertainment shows are shot 1080i even though they may be aired on a 720p broadcaster in the US. (There ARE 720p native productions - but they aren't universal on 720p broadcasters)

(*) The original series of Arrested Development was notable for actually shooting 720p - it was definitely an outlier.

In Europe NRK (Norway), DR (Denmark), SVT (Sweden), ARD and ZDF (Gemrnay) all run or ran 720p50 networks alongside fellow broadcasters using 1080i25 - but the 720p50 broadcasters' internal productions and commissions were/are all 1080p or 1080i and converted to 720p50 on playout (or 2160p in some cases where they were co-productions).

ZDF and ARD have since introduced 1080p50 on their OTA platforms (using DVB-T2 and HEVC/h.265 compression). My understanding is that the 1080p50 signal is a deinterlaced 1080i25 source at the moment (i.e. they aren't running 1080p50 native for sport, entertainment etc.)
nathill likes this.

Last edited by sneals2000; 04-01-2020 at 06:38 AM.
sneals2000 is offline  
post #2580 of 2611 Old 04-01-2020, 05:02 AM
Advanced Member
 
nathill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 866
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 276 Post(s)
Liked: 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by kc9pke View Post
Bob and I must know how to use google a little better than the average user... try googling "site:samsung.com "NEXTGEN TV""

Using that, I found this: https://www.samsung.com/us/televisio...ir=Q900T#specs

No question I'm not a very good Googler.
But I think the point I was trying to make is that Samsung isn't making a big deal out of ATSC 3.0. Shouldn't have to be a "gifted Googler" to find it. Their website should blast it.
It isn't even mentioned in the specs of the TVs featuring it.
nathill is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply HDTV Technical

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off