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post #2791 of 2998 Old 05-13-2020, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by BigJeff View Post
ZapperBox Now Taking Orders for $249 NextGen TV Receiver

ZapperBox is now accepting orders for the box, which is priced at $249. By signing up at www.zapperbox.com, buyers will be able to secure a box with a $99 refundable deposit. They also encourage reseller inquiries as well.

While the devices are different solutions to the ATSC 3.0 technology, the ZapperBox does not seem like much of a deal compared to the HDHR. This is one tuner compared to two ATSC 3.0 tuners and two ATSC 1.0 tuners for $50 less. I'm sure the price will go up once the kickstarter is over but you're still getting additional tuners for the price.


Until set top boxes drop in price significantly I don't see the average person bothering...
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post #2792 of 2998 Old 05-13-2020, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Lost Dog View Post
While the devices are different solutions to the ATSC 3.0 technology, the ZapperBox does not seem like much of a deal compared to the HDHR. This is one tuner compared to two ATSC 3.0 tuners and two ATSC 1.0 tuners for $50 less. I'm sure the price will go up once the kickstarter is over but you're still getting additional tuners for the price.


Until set top boxes drop in price significantly I don't see the average person bothering...
Though it's slightly apples vs oranges isn't it? The ZapperBox has an HDMI output and is a full set-top box (aka a 'Zapper' as they are known in some parts of Europe). The HDHR model is just an IP-based streamer - you need other devices to actually deliver the video to a display (which will add cost?)

I agree though US$249 is a lot of money for a single-tuner ATSC 3.0 set-top box - even with other functionality. You can get a dual-tuner DVB-T2 PVR with 500GB of storage for less than that in the UK - with access to all the major catch-up platforms built in.
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post #2793 of 2998 Old 05-13-2020, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Dog View Post
While the devices are different solutions to the ATSC 3.0 technology, the ZapperBox does not seem like much of a deal compared to the HDHR. This is one tuner compared to two ATSC 3.0 tuners and two ATSC 1.0 tuners for $50 less. I'm sure the price will go up once the kickstarter is over but you're still getting additional tuners for the price.


Until set top boxes drop in price significantly I don't see the average person bothering...
The average person will only use what's built in an TV, sort of like the last digital conversion.

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post #2794 of 2998 Old 05-13-2020, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by sneals2000 View Post
... The HDHR model is just an IP-based streamer - you need other devices to actually deliver the video to a display (which will add cost?)....
Plus you will need to purchase product that will decode AC4, which VLC that was demonstrated in the demo video won't. Then of course, there is that ugly DRM thingee...

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post #2795 of 2998 Old 05-14-2020, 06:31 AM
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Had the chance to ask a few more questions of the Zapperbox team. The results are not encouraging. If these 2 technologies have any hope of gaining a foothold in the ATSC 3.0 marketplace, I figured they'd need to be implemented into receivers on day 1. AVC support came too late to ATSC 1.0 and it really jeopardized it's ability to be used in any commercial broadcast operation due to lack of receiver support.

Question: Will the Zapperbox be compatible with the Technicolor HDR format SL-HDR1 contained within the ATSC 3.0 Standard A/341? Will it be able to output said HDR signal in a PQ/HLG format for TVs that do not contain SL-HDR1 decoding internally?
Answer: The M1 will support HDR10 and HLG. We don't believe that it will support Technicolor SL-HDR1 but we need to research this a bit more and will get back to you.

Question: Will the Zapperbox work with Scaleable Video Coding (SHVC) for broadcasts which include a base layer (1080p) + extension layer (4K)?
Answer: The M1 will not support SHVC.

I watched 10 or so of the NAB Express Webinars on ATSC 3.0 yesterday. From my perspective there was a real lack of any news making information there. Nearly everything they talked about could already be read about in the ATSC standards on their website or in news articles from sites like TV Technology. One thing I found interesting was the head of the Fox station group said that his company was not able to push out the 4K HDR feeds from the network level to the affiliates at this time. He didn't get into specifics. Of course, most of those affiliate stations are not on the air with 3.0 yet, but it sounds like there is more infrastructure there that needs to be put into place.

A pair of webinars I did like were interactive app demonstrations from Fincons (based in Europe with experience developing HbbTV apps). I'd recommend watching these if you are curious as to how the viewer may be able to interact with the program in real time via on screen applications.

Interactive TV Sports Apps: What’s Coming Next? (https://dir.nabshowexpress.com/8_0/s...cheduleid=1448)
The Dish – ATSC 3.0 Interactive Application Prototype (https://dir.nabshowexpress.com/8_0/s...cheduleid=1921)

Implementing AI-powered Semantic Character Recognition in Motor Racing Sports (https://dir.nabshowexpress.com/8_0/s...scheduleid=239)
This one isn't necessarily ATSC 3.0 specific, but it is a really cool behind the scenes look at using AI to derive driver labels from active camera feeds throughout a live broadcast. How cool would it be if they could develop this for other sports like basketball, baseball, and football so that the user could toggle on and off video game style player identification graphics via an internet delivered ATSC 3.0 overlay app? I think this could really help novice viewers get to know the players and become more engaged.

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post #2796 of 2998 Old 05-14-2020, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJeff View Post
A pair of webinars I did like were interactive app demonstrations from Fincons (based in Europe with experience developing HbbTV apps). I'd recommend watching these if you are curious as to how the viewer may be able to interact with the program in real time via on screen applications.

Interactive TV Sports Apps: What’s Coming Next? (https://dir.nabshowexpress.com/8_0/s...cheduleid=1448)

The Dish – ATSC 3.0 Interactive Application Prototype (https://dir.nabshowexpress.com/8_0/s...cheduleid=1921)
Thanks for the recommendations! I listened to 2.5 of the webinars while WFH with plans to "watch" a couple of others. The ones I watched were unfortunately a real snore fest- nothing interesting was said- even to a non industry person like me.

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post #2797 of 2998 Old 05-14-2020, 09:09 AM
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I actually signed up for the digital NAB Show.

Thus far all I've actually seen is part of the opening video, and that was just for the tribute to Jim Henson with Kermit the Frog. Evidently, I haven't missed much.

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post #2798 of 2998 Old 05-15-2020, 01:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJeff View Post
Had the chance to ask a few more questions of the Zapperbox team. The results are not encouraging. If these 2 technologies have any hope of gaining a foothold in the ATSC 3.0 marketplace, I figured they'd need to be implemented into receivers on day 1. AVC support came too late to ATSC 1.0 and it really jeopardized it's ability to be used in any commercial broadcast operation due to lack of receiver support.

Question: Will the Zapperbox be compatible with the Technicolor HDR format SL-HDR1 contained within the ATSC 3.0 Standard A/341? Will it be able to output said HDR signal in a PQ/HLG format for TVs that do not contain SL-HDR1 decoding internally?
Answer: The M1 will support HDR10 and HLG. We don't believe that it will support Technicolor SL-HDR1 but we need to research this a bit more and will get back to you.
Is Technicolor's SDR/HDR standard likely to be deployed? Does it have the same limitation as HLG in gamut terms?

HLG is backwards compatible, to a degree, with SDR displays (without any conversion), but only within the same colour gamut (it tracks an SDR EOTF for the first 70% or so, and then has a logarithmic gamma in the top end that means highlights are visible in SDR rather than clipped, so it looks a bit like a knee has been introduced). So if you want to be fully compatible with Rec 709 SDR HDTVs already in use, you'd have to use Rec 709 HLG HDR without the wide colour gamut that Rec 2020 introduces (unless you implement gamut conversion in the set top box/receiver). Rec 2020 HLG is only really backwards compatible with the relatively small number of SDR-only Rec 2020 TVs (mainly first gen UHD sets I believe)

The Technicolor system seems to be nowhere in Europe - where HLG is the main 'TV' HDR codec in use (and HLG->HDR10 or SLog3->HDR10 conversions used for HDR OTT to mobile devices that don't have HLG compatibility)
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post #2799 of 2998 Old 05-15-2020, 11:55 AM
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Is Technicolor's SDR/HDR standard likely to be deployed? Does it have the same limitation as HLG in gamut terms?
I can't speak to the likelihood of SL-HDR1 being deployed in commercial broadcasts, I just know it is 1 way to distribute both HDR and SDR without wasting bits by having to send the entirety of each feed in parallel. This however requires SL-HDR1 decoding in the consumer receive device. Sinclair and Technicolor worked together on an HDR test back in 2015.
https://www.technicolor.com/news/tec...-range-ultrahd

SL-HDR1 can best be thought of as a method for taking a PQ / HLG signal and deriving an SDR feed for distribution + metadata to allow for reconstruction of the HDR signal (non-Techinicolor capable decode device will simply decode the SDR and ignore the metadata).

"SL-HDR1 Metadata are an aggregation of parameters, syntactically and semantically specified
in [11], Section 6, which may be used in the decoding process to reconstruct HDR video from an
SDR encoded video stream.
An HEVC or SHVC video stream may contain SL-HDR1 Metadata in order to provide both
an SDR picture and an HDR picture from the same video stream. When SL-HDR1 Metadata are
present, they allow reconstructing the HDR video from the received SDR video stream. The
reconstructed HDR video can be represented as linear light or using any of the available HDR
transfer functions listed in these specifications."
https://www.atsc.org/wp-content/uplo...deo-HEVC-1.pdf

Another method to solve the HDR backwards compatibility problem would be to use Scaleable High Efficiency Video Codec (SHVC) an SDR base layer (Ex: 1080p) and a HDR enhancement layer (Ex 2160p).
https://www.academia.edu/29844099/Ov...oding_Standard
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post #2800 of 2998 Old 05-17-2020, 10:34 PM
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AIUI the h.265 spec was going to be progressive only, but there was lobbying to retain interlaced compatibility that was successful late in the day, so it was tacked on.
" Interlaced scanning is a really dumb thing to consider in any new video signal format. ... The reason why there are still proponents of interlacing escapes me, especially when considered in the context of digital broadcasting. ... I have a hunch that the continued advocacy of interlaced equipment originates from foreign-owned consumer electronics companies that are trying to get back the substantial investments they foolishly made in this obsolete technology!" — William F. Schreiber, http://www.cinemasource.com/articles...litics_dtv.pdf (the document is dated 2002, the interview was taken in 1997)

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post #2801 of 2998 Old 05-18-2020, 12:53 AM
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" Interlaced scanning is a really dumb thing to consider in any new video signal format. ... The reason why there are still proponents of interlacing escapes me, especially when considered in the context of digital broadcasting. ... I have a hunch that the continued advocacy of interlaced equipment originates from foreign-owned consumer electronics companies that are trying to get back the substantial investments they foolishly made in this obsolete technology!" — William F. Schreiber, http://www.cinemasource.com/articles...litics_dtv.pdf (the document is dated 2002, the interview was taken in 1997)
Yep - that's from an era when people were pushing 720p over 1080i - but the entire Japanese broadcast market had a full 1080i compatible production chain from multiple manufacturers available and there was no equivalent in 720p. 1080i was a very slight tweak of the 1035i/1050i Japanese HiVision/HDVS system that had been in development since the 70s, and in use since the late 80s/early 90s in Japan. You could buy 1080i cameras, camcorders, switchers, VTRs etc. For 720p there was almost no equivalent equipment - and the Japanese had no major inclinations to implement it.

For years Sony cameras ran 1080i and converted internally to 720p if you needed that output mode, and HD Cam VTRs didn't ever support 720p ISTR. Panasonic implemented 720p native gear (ABC had a Panasonic truck for their early 720p native sport production I think) but Panasonic have always been also-rans in the broadcast industry - trailing behind Sony and GrassValley/Philips (GVG now includes the former Philips/BTS camera division)

The massive benefit of being able to buy 'off-the-shelf' 1080i production gear that had been road-tested for years in daily production in Japan simply couldn't be ignored. It's often forgotten that whilst the US and Australia went HD in the late 90s/early 00s - Japan had been on-air with HD pretty much throughout the 90s domestically. (I remember seeing the NHK truck covering Wimbledon in HD in the early 90s)

Whilst 720p is used by some broadcasters in Europe for transmission (the EBU championed it over 1080i - but were largely ignored outside of public service broadcasters in Germany and Scandinavia) - the reality is that all of these broadcasters run 1080i internally and just convert for transmission (NRK in Norway, SVT in Sweden, DR in Denmark and ZDF in Germany certainly do). ARD and ZDF in Germany are now 1080p50 on terrestrial - but I believe this is a 1080i25 to 1080p50 deinterlace prior to encoding rather than 1080p50 native production (according to a ZDF engineer I spoke to last year when he visited my place of work)

Everyone expected Sky UK to be 720p50 HD before they launched HD (as their sister company at the time, Fox, was 720p in the US) - but they did a lot of real-world viewer tests (a number of years after the EBU's tests) and I think domestic deinterlacers had improved enough, and screen sizes increased, such that the 1920x1080 vs 1280x720 resolutions were beginning to be an issue. They chose 1080i over 720p in 2005/6ish.
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post #2802 of 2998 Old 05-18-2020, 08:59 AM - Thread Starter
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MBAFF was first introduced in MPEG-2. Here are some analyzer views of an interlaced B-frame.


This shows the macroblock type. Blue is forward predicted, yellow is backward and pink is bi-directional. Blocks with a line through them are field DCT coded and blocks with a dot are when the quantization changes.





This shows motion vectors. Field predicted blocks can have four vectors, top field forward, top field backward, bottom field forward and bottom field backward.





The interlaced frame luma.




HD MPEG-2 Test Patterns http://www.w6rz.net
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post #2803 of 2998 Old 05-18-2020, 10:45 AM
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For 720p there was almost no equivalent equipment - and the Japanese had no major inclinations to implement it.
What about Philips/BTS, who provided cameras for the European 1250-line format? Wasn't it a progressive format? The broadcast format was interlaced, but production was progressive, isn't it? Either way, did the Americans have to purchase from Europe or Japan? What about RCA? Zenith? They stopped manufacturing TV equipment at that time?
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post #2804 of 2998 Old 05-18-2020, 11:18 AM
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What about Philips/BTS, who provided cameras for the European 1250-line format? Wasn't it a progressive format?
The late-80s tubed KCH-1000 camera could be modified to do most formats - but that really wasn't a practical production camera, and was only used for trials. The KCH-1000 was certainly also used in the US for 1050/i29.97 research (aka 2 x 525i) which would have been a ~960/i29.97 (aka 960/59.94i) interlaced system. I believe it could also be configured to do progressive (or sequential as it was often then known) as well - but by the time the US went HD, tubed cameras were dead and buried.

The Eureka 1250 standard was interlaced. In modern parlance it would be described as 1152/i25 (or 1125/50i). It had precisely twice the line count (both active and total) of the 50Hz PAL/SECAM 625/50 standards. There was scope in the system planning for receivers using the HD-MAC broadcast standard to use the motion vectors to create an 1152/p50 or 1152/i100 (100Hz refresh rate TVs had begun to be a thing as CRTs got bigger to mitigate 50Hz large area flicker)

Philips created a CCD camera for the Eureka 1250 standard - but that was just for that system - and based around a 1" sensor format. Again this was a prototype really - as so few were made.

The Philips/BTS (Philips = Dutch, BTS = Bosch = German) LDK6000 was a proper 2/3" HD camera and became a workhorse - and was a big seller in the US for two reasons :

1. It could be bought in a triax variant - and operate in sports stadiums that were pre-wired for triax - and didn't require SMPTE fibre runs (as the Sony cameras did). Sony cameras could be used over triax only with off-board converters - known in the UK as 'toasters'... They did not improve HD picture quality...

2. The LDK6000, uniquely, had a CCD sensor design that allowed it to work properly in both 1080i and 720p standards (as well as 480i/p and 576i/p) and at both 50Hz and 59.94Hz (with 23.976/25p added at some point to some variants). This was possible because the CCD sensor wasn't 1080 lines or 720p lines high - it was 4320 lines high believe it or not. That allowed 4 lines to be averaged to create a 1080p image, 6 lines to be averaged to create a 720p image, 8 lines to be averaged to create a 1080i 540line field - with a 4-line offset between each field, 9 lines to be averaged to create a 480p frame (or 18 lines with a 9 line offset to create a 480i 240 line field).

However the LDK6000 wasn't around until a while after US HD production started ISTR - which meant either Sony cameras for 1080i (with a nasty conversation to 720p in the camera CCU and no HD Cam recording for 720p), or Panasonic cameras (which have never had the greatest reputation in system camera terms) with the HD-D5 VTR system (which was 1080i and 720p compatible) which was an SD-D5 VTR with a compression board that took in an HD signal and compressed it into the space taken by an SD signal. (D5 was unusual in that, unlike DigiBeta, it was uncompressed at SD - like D1)

Quote:
The broadcast format was interlaced, but production was progressive, isn't it?
No - the standard Eureka 1250 system was interlaced all the way through. The only thing that may confuse you about it is that the HD-MAC analogue+digital assistance transmission proposed in the late 80s/early 90s was based around 1:1 288p, 2:1 576i and 4:1 1152i macro blocks based on the speed of motion of blocks of the picture. Unlike the Japanese MUSE analogue compression system (which was 1035 lines high but had major horizontal sub-sampling) the European system had block based motion vectors and switchable 1:1, 2:1 and 4:1 interlace modes on a block-by-block basis to create an SD compatible signal that could be reconstructed to HD in HD receivers.

(Europe had already started - slightly - using D-MAC and D2-MAC which were 625/50i SD component analogue transmission systems, rather than composite PAL/SECAM)

Quote:
Either way, did the Americans have to purchase from Europe or Japan? What about RCA? Zenith? They stopped manufacturing TV equipment at that time?
By the time the US was going HD there were no US manufacturers of TV cameras or VTRs. (Ampex had effectively stopped making VTRs by then after their DigiBeta rival, DCT, failed catastrophically)

The US had to buy European BTS KCH-1000 cameras to trial their 1050 line HD system in the late 80s, because there were no US camera manufacturers to buy cameras from. RCA and Zenith had long since stopped making broadcast equipment (they'd stopped by the mid-80s).

In Europe we had Philips/BTS (merged) and Thomson (French) - but whilst Thomson had made some pretty lousy tubed cameras for both 1250/50i systems and a 625/50p 'ProScan' format they tried to commercialise, they had not got anything in the HD CCD era that was competitive (they limped on making SD CCD cameras - with the BBC buying a LOT of their cameras)

Grass Valley bought Philips/BTS much later (hence Philips/BTS cameras now have a GrassValley logo - but the cameras are still developed in Europe, mainly at the former-Philips Breda base I think?)

In Japan you had Sony, Ikegami, Panasonic, Hitachi all making 1035i cameras that were then tweaked to 1080i - which was the Japanese standard. Sony and Panasonic had the only HD VTR formats that made sense for general production (HD Cam and HD-D5), and one of those was 1080i only...

Interlace survived for so long because it allowed CRTs to run at high enough refresh rates not to flicker, but without requiring twice the bandwidth to carry the signal.

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post #2805 of 2998 Old 05-21-2020, 02:46 PM
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Silicon Dust caveats

I found these very interesting items in the latest Silicon Dust Kick-starter email.
"Not all playback clients will be able to support ATSC 3.0 content due to new codecs being utilized. You may need to purchase new client/playback hardware. For a computer you might need to purchase a new graphics card. Windows may require a paid Microsoft codec to be purchased from Microsoft Store."
"We plan to support DRM playback where possible however it is expected that some client platforms will not be able to support playback of DRM protected channels. Some popular client platforms such as Roku and Apple TV are not able to support all ATSC 3.0 features."
New graphics cards? New codec from the Microsoft Store? DRM protected channels? Roku and Apple TV not able to support all ATSC 3.0 features?

How likely are any of these to be actual problems, or is Silicon Dust just being overly cautious?
Scared me away from the KickStarter campaign.
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post #2806 of 2998 Old 05-21-2020, 03:57 PM
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I found these very interesting items in the latest Silicon Dust Kick-starter email.
"Not all playback clients will be able to support ATSC 3.0 content due to new codecs being utilized. You may need to purchase new client/playback hardware. For a computer you might need to purchase a new graphics card. Windows may require a paid Microsoft codec to be purchased from Microsoft Store."
"We plan to support DRM playback where possible however it is expected that some client platforms will not be able to support playback of DRM protected channels. Some popular client platforms such as Roku and Apple TV are not able to support all ATSC 3.0 features."
New graphics cards? New codec from the Microsoft Store? DRM protected channels? Roku and Apple TV not able to support all ATSC 3.0 features?

How likely are any of these to be actual problems, or is Silicon Dust just being overly cautious?
Scared me away from the KickStarter campaign.
HEVC is likely to be used as the video codec. Older PCs and GPUs won't support HEVC hardware acceleration, and Windows 10 (at least in some variants) requires an HEVC codec pack to be purchased to play HEVC stuff in Windows Media Player (or whatever that is called now).

Other software in Windows - MPC-HC, MPV, VLC, Kodi etc. will play it fine on suitable hardware - just as lots of small cheap ARM SBCs will in Kodi.

The audio codec used may be more of an issue others have suggested - if AC4 is used rather than AC3 (Dolby Digital) or E-AC3 (Dolby Digital Plus) as support for AC4 is much less developed.
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post #2807 of 2998 Old 05-21-2020, 07:56 PM
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HEVC is likely to be used as the video codec. Older PCs and GPUs won't support HEVC hardware acceleration, and Windows 10 (at least in some variants) requires an HEVC codec pack to be purchased to play HEVC stuff in Windows Media Player (or whatever that is called now).

Other software in Windows - MPC-HC, MPV, VLC, Kodi etc. will play it fine on suitable hardware - just as lots of small cheap ARM SBCs will in Kodi.

The audio codec used may be more of an issue others have suggested - if AC4 is used rather than AC3 (Dolby Digital) or E-AC3 (Dolby Digital Plus) as support for AC4 is much less developed.
HEVC is the required video codec in 3.0 and AC-4 is the required audio form. As Dolby just released SDK2 last year and they require certification before they will allow you to use their product, rollout has been s-l-o-w.

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post #2808 of 2998 Old 05-22-2020, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Lost Dog View Post
While the devices are different solutions to the ATSC 3.0 technology, the ZapperBox does not seem like much of a deal compared to the HDHR. This is one tuner compared to two ATSC 3.0 tuners and two ATSC 1.0 tuners for $50 less. I'm sure the price will go up once the kickstarter is over but you're still getting additional tuners for the price.


Until set top boxes drop in price significantly I don't see the average person bothering...
According to this interview with Nick Kelsey. The HD Homerun Quatro 4K is profitable at the $200 kickstarter price. And that the price could go down in September when it launches outside of the Kickstarter.

https://www.techhive.com/article/354...-atsc-3-0.html

Quote:
...Kelsey said the Quatro 4K is profitable at its $200 Kickstarter price, and he doesn’t expect that price to rise in September, when SiliconDust plans to launch the tuner more broadly. If anything, the price could go down....
I was thinking about purchasing one in the Kickstarter. But I figured I just need to wait until ATSC 3.0 starts broadcasting in the DC area.

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post #2809 of 2998 Old 05-22-2020, 01:34 PM
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I just received this email.

https://mailchi.mp/4659a0c71775/hdho...4k-for-atsc-30

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...omerun-atsc-30

KickStarter project? Really? Silicon Dust can't afford their own development? Is this a sham? Smells fishy to me.

I like my HDHomeRun. I use Apple TVs and Silicon Dust doesn't have their own app supporting their product on Apple TV. I said a couple of years ago that for my ATSC 3 solution, I will only purchase a product that the maker provides both the hardware and the software. I am going to stick with that proclamation. While Channels works fine, I want full support. So I will look at Tablo's or someone else's solution should Silicon Dust not acquiesce.
Started a HDHR Quatro 4K thread
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/42-hd...vr-thread.html

...unless someone already did
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post #2810 of 2998 Old 05-22-2020, 02:58 PM
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I live in north Phoenix about 30 miles from the South Mountain transmitters and 120 miles north of Tucson. While I was troubleshooting an antenna issue, I was able to scan in 93 channels. A few were from Tucson. I assume that I might be able to receive the ATSC 3.0 test signal. I scanned in a channel that showed up as 'Incompatible Video Format' on my TV. It was a channel in the forties, like 44-? I can't find a channel with that message now. Any idea what it might have been?
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post #2811 of 2998 Old 05-22-2020, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by AlinPHX View Post
I live in north Phoenix about 30 miles from the South Mountain transmitters and 120 miles north of Tucson. While I was troubleshooting an antenna issue, I was able to scan in 93 channels. A few were from Tucson. I assume that I might be able to receive the ATSC 3.0 test signal. I scanned in a channel that showed up as 'Incompatible Video Format' on my TV. It was a channel in the forties, like 44-? I can't find a channel with that message now. Any idea what it might have been?
44-x is LATV on RF ch16. ATSC 3.0 is on RF35 and the displayed channels usually reflect the ATSC 1.0 channel being retransmitted. (5.1, 8.4, 12.1, etc.) The exception would be a purely test stream and they are typically up at 35.11 or higher.


To receive ch35 you are going to need an ATSC 3.0 tuner. There are a few dongle solutions out there but they are both expensive and unfinished. The only consumer sets available *today* are the 2020 Samsung 8k sets and I think that they are only available from their web site. LG will bring their 2020 4k ATSC 3.0 sets to marked soon.
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post #2812 of 2998 Old 05-22-2020, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Rgb View Post
Started a HDHR Quatro 4K thread
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/42-hd...vr-thread.html

...unless someone already did
In my original post I was bitching about Silicon Dust not having their own Apple TV app. For their kickstarter campaign, they made it a "stretch goal" to create one should they reach a certain number of participants- and they did! I no longer have anything to complain about. I suspect I may be buying a Quatro ATSC 3 HDHomeRun at some point- although I will certainly compare with what Tablo and any others that will presumably bring out equipment at some point in the future.

I'm in the Boston DMA and we can't even get our "post repack" changes from August 2019 completed (stations aren't up to full power last I checked- they're on temporary auxiliary equipment) so who knows when I'll have any ATSC 3 stations. If I do go with HDHomeRun I'll wait to buy rev 2 of the hardware when it's officially released.

Anyway, I'm glad Silicon Dust will finally be bringing out their own Apple TV app. I utilize Apple TVs on the TVs I use the most and Rokus on TVs I use less. The Channels app has long worked fine for my Apple TV but the HDHomeRun app for Roku only recently came out and doesn't work that well. Yes, I'm aware the issue is with Roku and not Silicon Dust- but I feel I learned a lesson and have decided to not go with a ATSC 3 platform unless the equipment I choose has full end-to-end support from the company I select. It will be interesting to learn if it's a big deal that the Apple TV won't support "interactive ATSC 3.0 features." I watched a couple of ATSC 3 demos of interactive features dealing with sports from the NAB show a couple of weeks ago and was non-plussed.
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post #2813 of 2998 Old 05-23-2020, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by bobchase View Post
44-x is LATV on RF ch16. ATSC 3.0 is on RF35 and the displayed channels usually reflect the ATSC 1.0 channel being retransmitted. (5.1, 8.4, 12.1, etc.) The exception would be a purely test stream and they are typically up at 35.11 or higher.


To receive ch35 you are going to need an ATSC 3.0 tuner. There are a few dongle solutions out there but they are both expensive and unfinished. The only consumer sets available *today* are the 2020 Samsung 8k sets and I think that they are only available from their web site. LG will bring their 2020 4k ATSC 3.0 sets to marked soon.
The Sony x900h has a atsc 3.0 tuner and is available for order. I have be waiting on a rtings.com review before I order one.
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post #2814 of 2998 Old 05-24-2020, 07:31 AM
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The Amazon Fire TV Recast has all the functionality I want--multiple tuners, DVR and the ability to integrate with a streaming device wirelessly--EXCEPT ATSC 3.0. This device seems to be on closeout pricing, now. Hopefully, it's because it's about to be updated with ATSC 3.0 tuners, and not because it's being discontinued.
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post #2815 of 2998 Old 05-24-2020, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Ted99 View Post
The Amazon Fire TV Recast has all the functionality I want--multiple tuners, DVR and the ability to integrate with a streaming device wirelessly--EXCEPT ATSC 3.0. This device seems to be on closeout pricing, now. Hopefully, it's because it's about to be updated with ATSC 3.0 tuners, and not because it's being discontinued.
It's hard to say, I've read that the Recast is not selling as well as Amazon has hoped. ATSC 3.0 tuners would bump the price of the unit up. Amazon has been known to make things disappear ala Google. Remember the Amazon cell phone ? I would put my money on Tablo for the long term, especially if they start working with Silicon Dust. Two companies that have real skin in the game (and their possible survival).
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post #2816 of 2998 Old 05-25-2020, 08:32 AM
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It's hard to say, I've read that the Recast is not selling as well as Amazon has hoped. ATSC 3.0 tuners would bump the price of the unit up. Amazon has been known to make things disappear ala Google. Remember the Amazon cell phone ? I would put my money on Tablo for the long term, especially if they start working with Silicon Dust. Two companies that have real skin in the game (and their possible survival).
Yes, I was afraid that this was the path Amazon is on. I never bought one because it's DVR recorded everything at 720p. I'll buy whatever one has the capability I want and I agree with your opinion that companies with a make or break product are more likely to innovate. I hope they proceed from a bare-bones tuner to one with more robust capabilities. That's why I made my post. I suspect that an agile company is smart enough to use forums, such as these, for market research.

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post #2817 of 2998 Old 05-25-2020, 03:10 PM
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The Sony x900h has a atsc 3.0 tuner and is available for order. I have be waiting on a rtings.com review before I order one.
Yes, it's available for pre-order with a projected June delivery and the 3.0 firmware downloadable sometime later this summer. For that matter a LG can be purchased today with the 3.0 firmware downloadable sometime later on this summer. Samsung is the only set out that allows actual 3.0 viewing today. Even with the delayed timetables the 3.0 firmware will available before the 3.0 stations are in most markets.

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post #2818 of 2998 Old 05-26-2020, 06:00 AM
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Yes, it's available for pre-order with a projected June delivery and the 3.0 firmware downloadable sometime later this summer. For that matter a LG can be purchased today with the 3.0 firmware downloadable sometime later on this summer. Samsung is the only set out that allows actual 3.0 viewing today. Even with the delayed timetables the 3.0 firmware will available before the 3.0 stations are in most markets.
Four of those stations, ABC, NBC, CBS, and CW, will arrived today in ATSC 3.0 fashion piggybacked on RF 29 in Las Vegas. That channel will be cleared of all ATSC 1.0 services as they are moved to other transmitters in the Valley, clearing the way for NextGen transmissions. The future is arriving now. And me without a capable receiver.
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post #2819 of 2998 Old 05-26-2020, 09:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Four of those stations, ABC, NBC, CBS, and CW, will arrived today in ATSC 3.0 fashion piggybacked on RF 29 in Las Vegas. That channel will be cleared of all ATSC 1.0 services as they are moved to other transmitters in the Valley, clearing the way for NextGen transmissions. The future is arriving now. And me without a capable receiver.
Here it is.


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post #2820 of 2998 Old 05-26-2020, 10:25 AM
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Atsc 3.0 has zero visibility to consumers, I mean zero.
Ask your family, friends, heck frennimies !

Has anyone seen timeline for real consumer rollout and marketing?


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