Atsc 3.0 - Page 96 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 1961Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #2851 of 3009 Old 06-02-2020, 09:34 AM
Senior Member
 
bobchase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 421
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJeff View Post
Isn't it a bit odd that we haven't seen a single informal tweet/post/review from a consumer or media outlet about real word experience watching the ATSC 3.0 broadcasts on a commercial TV set / receiver box in the couple markets its already live? Presumably someone in those markets would have a 2020 model capable of tuning in; though I understand some of the 2020 models will require firmware upgrades for ATSC 3.0 reception (kind of belies the word of all the ATSC evangelists who swore up and down that an internet connection would not be required to tune ATSC 3.0).
The only TV's for sale are Samsung and with a 3.5 kilobuck starting price, I'd think that early adopters would be few and far between. I've got one but I can't go into the station to look at it.
aaronwt and BigJeff like this.

We are experiencing some Technical Difficulties.
Please standby while we reboot our TV station...
bobchase is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2852 of 3009 Old 06-02-2020, 09:36 AM
Member
 
BigJeff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 182
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon_77 View Post
What about reviews on here? Let me check some of the local HDTV threads to see if there are any reviews/thoughts from early adopters on AVS. I hope to be one next month, but then I will need to find an active signal.
I just checked the HDTV reception threads for Las Vegas, Orlando, and Phoenix. Each has discussion of ATSC 3.0 (channel re-assignments etc) but I didn't find any first hand accounts of users with hardware capable of decoding a live OTA ATSC 3.0 signal.
BigJeff is online now  
post #2853 of 3009 Old 06-02-2020, 10:02 AM
Senior Member
 
bobchase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 421
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked: 70
though I understand some of the 2020 models will require firmware upgrades for ATSC 3.0 reception (kind of belies the word of all the ATSC evangelists who swore up and down that an internet connection would not be required to tune ATSC 3.0).


@BigJeff To be fair, you don't need an internet connection to receive 3.0. The TV manufacturers are shipping incomplete TV's while they 'finalize' the 3.0 software. So technically, it's the TV manufacturers who are forcing an internet connection to finish their product. Similarly, they force you to have an internet connection if you want the 'voice prompt' to work. (Alexa tune to...) Although only one brand uses Alexa, the others use different voice prompt services. I know, it's a fine point and Your point is acknowledged too. Sometime folks get carried away with the posi-speak from the marketing folks.
DrDon and Ted99 like this.

We are experiencing some Technical Difficulties.
Please standby while we reboot our TV station...
bobchase is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2854 of 3009 Old 06-02-2020, 01:00 PM
Super Moderator
 
DrDon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Metro Detroit, Tampa Bay
Posts: 17,742
Mentioned: 45 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2570 Post(s)
Liked: 5033
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobchase View Post
The only TV's for sale are Samsung and with a 3.5 kilobuck starting price, I'd think that early adopters would be few and far between. I've got one but I can't go into the station to look at it.
This may also be why there's not much local or consumer media attention. Budgets are tight and they'd have to buy the gear to evaluate it or get invited to your station to watch. National media would have to add travel expenses to that. Risky, because if it doesn't wow them, that's what'll get reported. For the same budget, they can buy a lot of other toys to report on their followers are far more interested in.

Couple that with today's crop of journalists and bloggers who don't have any friends who use an antenna, leading them to conclude nobody does.


...oh, and I'm stealing "kilobuck."
aaronwt and tenthplanet like this.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
DrDon is offline  
post #2855 of 3009 Old 06-02-2020, 01:41 PM
Senior Member
 
bobchase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 421
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
This may also be why there's not much local or consumer media attention. Budgets are tight and they'd have to buy the gear to evaluate it or get invited to your station to watch. National media would have to add travel expenses to that. Risky, because if it doesn't wow them, that's what'll get reported. For the same budget, they can buy a lot of other toys to report on their followers are far more interested in.

Couple that with today's crop of journalists and bloggers who don't have any friends who use an antenna, leading them to conclude nobody does.

...oh, and I'm stealing "kilobuck."
Feel free to steal my "kilobuck". Feel free to steal my signature. I've been using that since vendors tried to sell me stuff running on windows 3.1. Unfortunately, it's just as true today as it was then.

To expand on what you said and to answer a post a few days back -

Imagine that you are a Samsung executive. You put out a nationwide media bitz promoting your new ATSC 3.0 8k sets. So consumers across the country lift their couch cushions and vacuum up their spare kilobucks, and order it off the website. They get it mounted on their wall, and scan the band. They get zero analog channels, between 40 & 90 DTV channels, and ZERO NextGen channels. And then they go berserk on social media. Good plan!

Scenario #2 , they do the same in Phoenix, Santa Barbara, or Raleigh. And they get maybe seven 3.0 channels. And they look the same as or worse than the 2k channels do on the same set. And then a repeat the of berseker.

So yeah, this is going to be a slow roll-out. First you have to get the stations on the air. Then you have to get contribution quality video from the associate lighthouse stations over to the mothership. There's other stuff too but I don't want to get you depressed.
aaronwt, DrDon and nathill like this.

We are experiencing some Technical Difficulties.
Please standby while we reboot our TV station...
bobchase is offline  
post #2856 of 3009 Old 06-02-2020, 03:47 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
wco81's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 8,319
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2711 Post(s)
Liked: 1079
You'd think if stations are ramping up for ATSC 3 broadcasts, they'd issue press releases to announce availability.

Especially if they line up improvements that they think would attract viewers.
wco81 is online now  
post #2857 of 3009 Old 06-02-2020, 04:04 PM
Super Moderator
 
DrDon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Metro Detroit, Tampa Bay
Posts: 17,742
Mentioned: 45 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2570 Post(s)
Liked: 5033
Quote:
Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
Especially if they line up improvements that they think would attract viewers.
Such as?

And remember, these "improvements" have to attract NEW viewers. Moving people from 1.0 to 3.0 doesn't change the ratings.
aaronwt, tenthplanet and Mark12547 like this.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
DrDon is offline  
post #2858 of 3009 Old 06-02-2020, 04:08 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Falcon_77's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Mission Viejo, CA (DM13eo)
Posts: 2,741
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 106 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
You'd think if stations are ramping up for ATSC 3 broadcasts, they'd issue press releases to announce availability.

Especially if they line up improvements that they think would attract viewers.
Yes. You would think. I received this map in an article link and it's interesting to see LA in light blue, but as best I can tell it's just for an LD station and one on RF 8 which is not doable at my location (due to KFMB and I'd rather get KFMB).

https://www.atsc.org/nextgen-tv/deployments/

https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/da...7131e&goBack=N

So, I'm not getting my hopes up about LA beating say, Seattle, to the launch. The chart is confusing even to me with the "first markets." Looks like they are 3rd markets, really.
Falcon_77 is online now  
post #2859 of 3009 Old 06-02-2020, 04:14 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
wco81's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 8,319
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2711 Post(s)
Liked: 1079
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
Such as?

And remember, these "improvements" have to attract NEW viewers. Moving people from 1.0 to 3.0 doesn't change the ratings.

Probably nothing which would add significant viewers.

I was listening to an AT&T exec talk about the launch of HBO Max and he was asked why not do 4K HDR of Game of Thrones and that would bring in a lot of fans.

His answer was we had to prioritize launching the service and they may look at it at some point but said it's only a "certain" viewer who looks for higher quality picture and sound. He didn't quantify or characterize those certain viewers.
wco81 is online now  
post #2860 of 3009 Old 06-02-2020, 04:20 PM
Super Moderator
 
DrDon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Metro Detroit, Tampa Bay
Posts: 17,742
Mentioned: 45 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2570 Post(s)
Liked: 5033
Quote:
Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
Probably nothing which would add significant viewers.

I was listening to an AT&T exec talk about the launch of HBO Max and he was asked why not do 4K HDR of Game of Thrones and that would bring in a lot of fans.

His answer was we had to prioritize launching the service and they may look at it at some point but said it's only a "certain" viewer who looks for higher quality picture and sound. He didn't quantify or characterize those certain viewers.
There ya go. 4K HDR doesn't add audience. I'm not going to suddenly tune into "The Price is Right" because Plinko is in HDR. Ditto GoT and anything else. Nice to have, but it won't affect subscriber numbers. If they can upcharge for 4k HDR, then that's the benefit.
nathill, tenthplanet and Tbear626 like this.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
DrDon is offline  
post #2861 of 3009 Old 06-02-2020, 06:04 PM
Senior Member
 
bobchase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 421
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
There ya go. 4K HDR doesn't add audience. I'm not going to suddenly tune into "The Price is Right" because Plinko is in HDR. Ditto GoT and anything else. Nice to have, but it won't affect subscriber numbers. If they can upcharge for 4k HDR, then that's the benefit.
What he didn't say was "Are you kidding me - do you know how much extra that would cost us?". And it's much easier for a streamer than a broadcaster to convert. Still lots of money but easier. The last HD conversion I did for a TV station was $4 million. I don't know what a UHD station build-out would cost, let alone if *all* of the stuff is even available yet. I was kind-sorta excited to go to NAB this year because I was going to visit the usual suspects and see what is available, it's cost, and especially what wasn't invented yet. I also wanted to pick some of the bigger brains and see if there was a consensus yet on 1 wire, 4 wire, or bonded IP. Doggone C-19 stopped all of that...
DrDon likes this.

We are experiencing some Technical Difficulties.
Please standby while we reboot our TV station...
bobchase is offline  
post #2862 of 3009 Old 06-03-2020, 07:08 AM
Super Moderator
 
DrDon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Metro Detroit, Tampa Bay
Posts: 17,742
Mentioned: 45 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2570 Post(s)
Liked: 5033
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobchase View Post
The last HD conversion I did for a TV station was $4 million. I don't know what a UHD station build-out would cost, let alone if *all* of the stuff is even available yet. I was kind-sorta excited to go to NAB this year because I was going to visit the usual suspects and see what is available, it's cost, and especially what wasn't invented yet. I also wanted to pick some of the bigger brains and see if there was a consensus yet on 1 wire, 4 wire, or bonded IP. Doggone C-19 stopped all of that...
It's that expense that has me convinced 3.0 will end up being used more for cost savings rather than deployment of new features. Even then, C-19 will probably end up kicking the 3.0 can down the road farther. I've seen stories in HOTP regarding huge TV ad budget cuts from some major manufacturers. I realize political will make up some of that ground in the fall nationally. Not so much for the local LUC buys. Couple that with likely drastic cuts from long-shuttered local businesses and stations aren't going to have millions to put down at the Future Technologies Craps Table.
aaronwt, BiggAW, nathill and 1 others like this.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
DrDon is offline  
post #2863 of 3009 Old 06-03-2020, 08:41 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
BiggAW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Hartford-New Haven
Posts: 2,563
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1047 Post(s)
Liked: 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
the Future Technologies Craps Table.
That's a great phrase!
DrDon, nathill and tenthplanet like this.
BiggAW is offline  
post #2864 of 3009 Old 06-03-2020, 03:05 PM
Super Moderator
 
DrDon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Metro Detroit, Tampa Bay
Posts: 17,742
Mentioned: 45 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2570 Post(s)
Liked: 5033
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
That's a great phrase!
I had to try to top "kilobucks."

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
DrDon is offline  
post #2865 of 3009 Old 06-04-2020, 02:34 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sneals2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 7,930
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 517 Post(s)
Liked: 283
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobchase View Post
What he didn't say was "Are you kidding me - do you know how much extra that would cost us?". And it's much easier for a streamer than a broadcaster to convert. Still lots of money but easier. The last HD conversion I did for a TV station was $4 million. I don't know what a UHD station build-out would cost, let alone if *all* of the stuff is even available yet. I was kind-sorta excited to go to NAB this year because I was going to visit the usual suspects and see what is available, it's cost, and especially what wasn't invented yet. I also wanted to pick some of the bigger brains and see if there was a consensus yet on 1 wire, 4 wire, or bonded IP. Doggone C-19 stopped all of that...
Almost all of it is now UHD-capable - and anyone building anything other than a small, single-studio set-up, will be going ST.2110 IP rather than Quad 3G- or 12G-SDI for studios.

It's not cheap - but it's all doable. There are still some things that are easier to do SDI than IP though.
sneals2000 is online now  
post #2866 of 3009 Old 06-04-2020, 09:09 AM
Senior Member
 
bobchase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 421
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by sneals2000 View Post
Almost all of it is now UHD-capable - and anyone building anything other than a small, single-studio set-up, will be going ST.2110 IP rather than Quad 3G- or 12G-SDI for studios.

It's not cheap - but it's all doable. There are still some things that are easier to do SDI than IP though.
I'm not certain that is correct in the USA. One router manufacturer uses two bonded IP's in an external interface to generate the 4 input videos for the router and then does the same for the outbound video. The only LKFS audio cable encoder I know of is Ateme and it cannot do 4k with IP (1 or 4 wire yes). There is an external LKFS box that was supposed to come to us for testing (in 2k) before C-19 but to do 4k requires 4 of them and 4 daughter cards for linking. I don't know of any CC encoders in 4k. In fact, now that I've typed it, I don't know of any CC encoders that output TTML caption data. Master Control switchers, news production switchers are said to be capable but at what level? What necessary options do you give up to do 4k? How many DVE's, Chroma Keyers, ME's are available when you switch to 4k mode in the production switchers. Do you get Elevators, bugs, and snipes in the 4k MC switcher? Hence my wish visit to the NAB conference that didn't happen. Could we get a 4k island on the air and do a 4k network passthrough with local 2k upconvert? Maybe, depending on how FCC compliant you want to be (or not be).

We are experiencing some Technical Difficulties.
Please standby while we reboot our TV station...
bobchase is offline  
post #2867 of 3009 Old 06-04-2020, 02:06 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sneals2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 7,930
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 517 Post(s)
Liked: 283
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobchase View Post
I'm not certain that is correct in the USA. One router manufacturer uses two bonded IP's in an external interface to generate the 4 input videos for the router and then does the same for the outbound video.
Ah - the all-IP trucks and buildings here are not using SDI routers at all - just multiple big switches from people like Arista, often in a spine and leaf style. The key thing to working UHD in a sane fashion is to avoid Quad 3G or Quad-2022 (3G-over-IP) solutions and go full-fat 2110 (slightly easier in 2160p50 as that will fit in a 10GbE pipe, whereas 2160p60 needs 25GbE or TICO/LLVC/VC-2 style mezzanine compression)

Quote:
The only LKFS audio cable encoder I know of is Ateme and it cannot do 4k with IP (1 or 4 wire yes). There is an external LKFS box that was supposed to come to us for testing (in 2k) before C-19 but to do 4k requires 4 of them and 4 daughter cards for linking.
LKFS ? Is that the same as LUFS (Loudness Units and monitoring?). Is that a processing board to ensure you stay loudness compliant?

We don't really use those in the UK - we expect all shows to be EBU R128 compliant at -23LUFS +/- 0.5 for pre-recorded and +/-1.0 for live or as-live. All recorded shows have to pass an R128 AQC prior to delivery (and have to be sent back and fixed if they fail) - and all live control rooms are expected to hit R128 -23. All acquired shows and movies will go through an R128 compliance check and dub.

Dolby E gear is a problem for IP set-ups but we're migrating to all-discrete + ST.2020 metadata to escape Dolby E.

Quote:
I don't know of any CC encoders in 4k. In fact, now that I've typed it, I don't know of any CC encoders that output TTML caption data.
Master Control switchers, news production switchers are said to be capable but at what level?
Master Control Switchers are disappearing in the UK - all the main networks are now using systems like GVG Morpheus ICE - which are IP-in, IP-out with all the processing for graphics, DVEs, transitions, promos and voice overs done in a 'channel in a box' IP system - no discrete master control switchers.

News production here is still HD (heck - some is still 16:9 SD-SDI...)

Quote:
What necessary options do you give up to do 4k? How many DVE's, Chroma Keyers, ME's are available when you switch to 4k mode in the production switchers. Do you get Elevators, bugs, and snipes in the 4k MC switcher? Hence my wish visit to the NAB conference that didn't happen. Could we get a 4k island on the air and do a 4k network passthrough with local 2k upconvert? Maybe, depending on how FCC compliant you want to be (or not be).
Lots of people are going for the Kahuna Maverik here as for IP UHD switchers (we call them vision mixers) - which is now a GVG switcher. It has a lot of functionality in UHD - but you do get what you pay for. It also lets you split mixers (or switchers if you will) across studios - even across countries if you are using remote production. Discovery/Eurosport are building a large two-site UHD-capable all-IP facility in Europe that will be used by all the major production centres across Europe. (So Stockholm's control room can use a section of the Kahuna Maverik switcher in London remotely over IP for instance - as if it was in Stockholm)
sneals2000 is online now  
post #2868 of 3009 Old 06-05-2020, 05:27 AM
Advanced Member
 
DanBa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 978
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 289 Post(s)
Liked: 921
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJeff View Post
"The NBC channel is taking the NBC mezzanine level standard 1080i feed, and with professional equipment is being converted to 1080p with sampling conversion to HDR via SL-HDR1. So the NBC programming will actually come across with TV sets that support HDR and SL-HDR1. Those devices will display HDR."
https://www.tvtechnology.com/news/ai...h-in-las-vegas

There you have it. The Sinclair owned NBC station (KSNV) in Las Vegas is running SL-HDR1 for HDR content at launch. I'd say that is a pretty clear indication of what Sinclair may do in other markets.

Me: Will the Zapperbox be compatible with the Technicolor HDR format SL-HDR1 contained within the ATSC 3.0 Standard A/341? Will it be able to output said HDR signal in a PQ/HLG format for TVs that do not contain SL-HDR1 decoding internally?
Zapperbox: Thanks for your email. The M1 will support HDR10 and HLG. We don't believe that it will support Technicolor SL-HDR1 but we need to research this a bit more and will get back to you.
Zapperbox: We did some more research. SL-HDR1 content will only be supported as SDR at this time. The hardware can be upgraded to add full SL-HDR1 support. We're trying to confirm whether this can be a field upgrade or if it can only be supported in new boxes in the future.
Me: Sinclair station KSNV in Las Vegas is deploying SL-HDR1 for HDR content for ATSC 3.0 starting today. That means devices without SL-HDR1 support will just get SDR (such as the Zapperbox M1). I hope you are able to include support for it in the next model.
Zapperbox: The M2 model should definitely have it. Unless this can be a software update for the M1. We got blindsided on this one because we were following the Pearl TV launch spec which does not include SL-HDR1. This is one of the areas where Sinclair decided to do something different, MMT being the other more public one.
We're already in touch with Sinclair, getting sample streams and running them through our boards to see how it behaves. The heavy lift of licensing Sl-HDR1, porting and testing still remains.

So that is a no from Zapperbox on SL-HDR1 support on the M1. Since the Silicon Dust Quatro doesn't have direct playback to televisions, you might only get HDR from a TV or set top box which supports Technicolor SL-HDR1 (which are very few from what I understand)

"SL-HDR1 is another HDR dynamic metadata technology, which serves a different purpose than Dolby Vision or SL-HDR2. SL-HDR1 is intended to enable the service provider to emit an HDR/2020 service in an SDR/709 format that can be “reconstructed” to HDR/2020 by the receiver.

HDR/2020 receivers that can interpret the SL-HDR1 metadata can present the HDR/2020 format to the viewer. The SDR/709 content can be displayed by receivers that cannot display HDR/2020. In this way SL-HDR1 provides a measure of backward compatibility for both HLG and PQ-based HDR content.

It should be noted that SL-HDR1 requires 10-bit encoding, and so may not help address legacy SDR/709 receivers that are only capable of 8-bit decoding."
https://ultrahdforum.org/wp-content/...V2.3-final.pdf

Universal audio/video receiver (Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, etc.) is achieved.
Universal HDR TV (HDR10, Dolby Vision, HEVC HLG HDR, VP9-HLG / VP9-PQ YouTube HDR, Dynamic HDR) is required.

Push for universal HDR TV!
DanBa is offline  
post #2869 of 3009 Old 06-05-2020, 06:00 AM
Member
 
BigJeff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 182
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanBa View Post
It should be noted that SL-HDR1 requires 10-bit encoding, and so may not help address legacy SDR/709 receivers that are only capable of 8-bit decoding."
https://ultrahdforum.org/wp-content/...V2.3-final.pdf
I hadn't realized about the 10 bit decoding requirement in the SDR receiver. Do we have a sense of how prevalent 10 bit decoding/playback is on phones and 1080p TVs? Sometimes I wonder about about how necessary backwards compatibility will be. ATSC 3.0 is a green field technology. If there are too many restrictions on decoding an HDR signal on the receive device (i.e. through SL-HDR1 support) it will limit the wow factor on the consumer side if they are left with the 1080p 10 bit SDR. If SL-HDR1 decoding is not built into every ATSC 3.0 receive device made from 2021 onward, I don't see how it can succeed in delivering the improved PQ that consumers will demand of ATSC 3.0.
DanBa likes this.
BigJeff is online now  
post #2870 of 3009 Old 06-05-2020, 02:33 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,297
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1969 Post(s)
Liked: 490
For what seems like a long time now, I've been reading comments for people who believe ATSC 3.0 can't succeed unless it supports this format or that format, certain types of programming, and host of other things. There's something more basic that I have not seen. When ATSC 3.0 is rolled out, it needs to be on the best station; i.e., the highest power, highest antenna, omni directional antenna, widest coverage station in the market. As many potential viewers as possible need to have access to it. If it's stuck on some low power, low and highly directional antenna, many viewers will not have access to it. The goal should be, as a minimum, to duplicate or exceed the largest service contour in the market.
joblo, nathill, Ted99 and 2 others like this.
Calaveras is online now  
post #2871 of 3009 Old 06-05-2020, 04:08 PM
Senior Member
 
bobchase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 421
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
For what seems like a long time now, I've been reading comments for people who believe ATSC 3.0 can't succeed unless it supports this format or that format, certain types of programming, and host of other things. There's something more basic that I have not seen. When ATSC 3.0 is rolled out, it needs to be on the best station; i.e., the highest power, highest antenna, omni directional antenna, widest coverage station in the market. As many potential viewers as possible need to have access to it. If it's stuck on some low power, low and highly directional antenna, many viewers will not have access to it. The goal should be, as a minimum, to duplicate or exceed the largest service contour in the market.
Nice thought but not really possible. Most stations in the market are not duopolies. Which means the group that owns the station only has one station in the market and it has to stay on the air in 1.0 for five years while it also broadcasts on a 3.0 before it can switch the transmitter over. This is why you see the 'lighthouse' concept in most markets where a duopoly station converts one of the stations over to 3.0 through much pain and suffering. Then other stations join in, sharing the costs, to get the five-year clock going. So presented with a choice between the 'big' one or 'the other one', you don't even have to guess which one is going to get 3.0.
tenthplanet likes this.

We are experiencing some Technical Difficulties.
Please standby while we reboot our TV station...
bobchase is offline  
post #2872 of 3009 Old 06-05-2020, 10:20 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tenthplanet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: North of Mexico, South of Oregon, West of desert
Posts: 7,336
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2621 Post(s)
Liked: 4433
Quote:
Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
Probably nothing which would add significant viewers.

I was listening to an AT&T exec talk about the launch of HBO Max and he was asked why not do 4K HDR of Game of Thrones and that would bring in a lot of fans.

His answer was we had to prioritize launching the service and they may look at it at some point but said it's only a "certain" viewer who looks for higher quality picture and sound. He didn't quantify or characterize those certain viewers.
HBO Max is running at the double the bit rate of HBO Now so even though it's not 4K it may actually look better than some 4K services if a TV has a good upscaler. Some of the fans of of ________ (Insert name of show here), will be churn and burners. Services need a stable base of viewers and that means content and value received for money spent.

"Espresso is like tequila, when in doubt apply more shots."
tenthplanet is offline  
post #2873 of 3009 Old 06-05-2020, 10:26 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tenthplanet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: North of Mexico, South of Oregon, West of desert
Posts: 7,336
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2621 Post(s)
Liked: 4433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
For what seems like a long time now, I've been reading comments for people who believe ATSC 3.0 can't succeed unless it supports this format or that format, certain types of programming, and host of other things. There's something more basic that I have not seen. When ATSC 3.0 is rolled out, it needs to be on the best station; i.e., the highest power, highest antenna, omni directional antenna, widest coverage station in the market. As many potential viewers as possible need to have access to it. If it's stuck on some low power, low and highly directional antenna, many viewers will not have access to it. The goal should be, as a minimum, to duplicate or exceed the largest service contour in the market.
And it needs to bring a picture that jumps off the wall at Best Buy.

"Espresso is like tequila, when in doubt apply more shots."
tenthplanet is offline  
post #2874 of 3009 Old 06-05-2020, 10:33 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tenthplanet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: North of Mexico, South of Oregon, West of desert
Posts: 7,336
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2621 Post(s)
Liked: 4433
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
That's a great phrase!
How about some ATSC 3.0 dice ? Laser polished, bluetooth enabled, wireless charging...and they spin twice at fast as regular dice. Pre-orders subject to FCC approval..
BiggAW likes this.

"Espresso is like tequila, when in doubt apply more shots."
tenthplanet is offline  
post #2875 of 3009 Old 06-06-2020, 07:07 AM
Advanced Member
 
ericlhyman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Silver Spring, MD USA
Posts: 863
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanBa View Post
"SL-HDR1 is another HDR dynamic metadata technology, which serves a different purpose than Dolby Vision or SL-HDR2. SL-HDR1 is intended to enable the service provider to emit an HDR/2020 service in an SDR/709 format that can be “reconstructed” to HDR/2020 by the receiver.

HDR/2020 receivers that can interpret the SL-HDR1 metadata can present the HDR/2020 format to the viewer. The SDR/709 content can be displayed by receivers that cannot display HDR/2020. In this way SL-HDR1 provides a measure of backward compatibility for both HLG and PQ-based HDR content.

It should be noted that SL-HDR1 requires 10-bit encoding, and so may not help address legacy SDR/709 receivers that are only capable of 8-bit decoding."
https://ultrahdforum.org/wp-content/...V2.3-final.pdf
Is Zapperbox making the ATSC tuners being used in new tvs this year? If not, are these tuners capable of HDR and 10-bit encoding?

ericlhyman
ericlhyman is offline  
post #2876 of 3009 Old 06-06-2020, 10:32 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Falcon_77's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Mission Viejo, CA (DM13eo)
Posts: 2,741
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 106 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobchase View Post
So presented with a choice between the 'big' one or 'the other one', you don't even have to guess which one is going to get 3.0.
This can be partly overcome by choosing a more robust mode, but of course that sacrifices bits and there won't be many to spare if several stations are sharing the same "lighthouse."

As I've thought for years, it makes me wonder how viable Lo-V would be for 3.0. That's where the most spare channels are, but then the FCC has given no indication to add allotments like it did for 1.0, so it doesn't matter.
Falcon_77 is online now  
post #2877 of 3009 Old 06-06-2020, 01:08 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
wco81's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 8,319
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2711 Post(s)
Liked: 1079
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
For what seems like a long time now, I've been reading comments for people who believe ATSC 3.0 can't succeed unless it supports this format or that format, certain types of programming, and host of other things. There's something more basic that I have not seen. When ATSC 3.0 is rolled out, it needs to be on the best station; i.e., the highest power, highest antenna, omni directional antenna, widest coverage station in the market. As many potential viewers as possible need to have access to it. If it's stuck on some low power, low and highly directional antenna, many viewers will not have access to it. The goal should be, as a minimum, to duplicate or exceed the largest service contour in the market.
People who get local stations through OTA are a small segment of the market.

And people who have reception problems are a small segment of that OTA segment.


Better reception may cause more people to cut the cord and try to get ATSC 3 tuners but that's not going to be that large a number. Most cordutters are just replacing their cable TV bills with streaming service bills.
wco81 is online now  
post #2878 of 3009 Old 06-06-2020, 01:53 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,297
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1969 Post(s)
Liked: 490
Quote:
Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
People who get local stations through OTA are a small segment of the market.
Yes, but ATSC 3 is only for OTA viewers. The rest of the market is irrelevant.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
And people who have reception problems are a small segment of that OTA segment.
Perhaps overall, but more than you think have trouble with low power stations. Most people don't complain as long as they can receive the big 5 networks. They just write off any LP stations they can't receive.
joblo and tenthplanet like this.
Calaveras is online now  
post #2879 of 3009 Old 06-06-2020, 10:34 PM
Member
 
BigJeff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 182
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 47
"Like older TVs, current phones will likely need some sort of external dongle to gain access to OTA content, but work is underway to get hardware support built into future mobile devices. In fact, Aitken said, had COVID-19 not happened, the first broadcast-capable mobile phone likely would’ve been shown off at NAB this year. It’s a reference design, as opposed to a product meant to hit store shelves, but it could pave the way for phones having built-in support in the near future. Aitken said he expects MVNOs (mobile virtual network operators) to be among the first to offer “free OTA TV” on phones as early as next year.

“We’re focused on bringing that television experience to all devices,” he said."

A bit strange that they are singling out MVNO providers here. I assume they just mean that in the near term ATSC 3.0 will only be built into unlocked phones and not those sold/subsidized through the major carriers. I'm on an MVNO myself (Red Pocket) and have had a pretty positive experience with it (low rates, great HD call quality). I guess I don't understand why AT&T, Verizon, T Mobile / Sprint are so different in business models from MVNOs; they are all trying to sell the most data they can. Free ATSC 3.0 content in place of data consuming streaming doesn't benefit either one. Perhaps it has to do with the 2 year contracts.

https://www-cordcuttersnews-com.cdn....next-gen-tv%2F

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

Last edited by BigJeff; 06-07-2020 at 07:04 AM.
BigJeff is online now  
post #2880 of 3009 Old 06-07-2020, 01:24 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sneals2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 7,930
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 517 Post(s)
Liked: 283
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJeff View Post
A bit strange that they are singling out MVNO providers here. I assume they just mean that in the near term ATSC 3.0 will only be built into unlocked phones and not those sold/subsidized through the major carriers. I'm on an MVNO myself (Red Pocket) and have had a pretty positive experience with it (low rates, great HD call quality). I guess I don't understand why AT&T, Verizon, T Mobile / Sprint are so different in business models from MVNOs; they are all trying to sell the most data they can. Free ATSC 3.0 content in place of data consuming streaming doesn't benefit either one. Perhaps it has to do with the 2 contracts.
Presumably two prongs :

1. MVNOs are less likely to be able to offer deals that give you OTT streaming deals that are not included in your data cap as they purchase data from the 'real' operators? ATSC 3.0 would allow 'on the go' TV viewing without streaming over your data connection.

2. If US MVNOs are like UK MVNOs they compete on price, and price alone. They therefore appeal in many cases to those who don't want to spend a lot of money - and thus may not have a paid-for OTT streaming service, but like the idea of a subscription-free way of watching live TV.
sneals2000 is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply HDTV Technical

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off