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post #2941 of 2994 Old 06-30-2020, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
There are so many problems with this and it seems largely redundant to what we have with smartphones anyway.
With the enhanced system that 3.0 allows things like escape routes and shelter locations can/will be embedded in the alert. Within the alert menu there can be all that and more during a major emergency. For extended emergencies, broadcasters would most likely update their App to include that information and short news stories. Cellphones can't do that, you'd have to google the additional information. More importantly, the larger the emergency, the less likely cellphones are to work. During Allison, Sprint shut down its cell towers in Houston to protect the equipment (and that was just a tropical depression). During Katrina, there were no cell towers left to connect to. The temporary towers that went up the first week were locked out to the general public. During the wildfires here in Arizona, the closer you are to the fire zone, the harder it is to get a cell connection. Meanwhile, TV stations stay on the air and they continue to deliver the news.

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post #2942 of 2994 Old 06-30-2020, 10:26 AM
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Dolby AC-4 Decoders

Since US ATSC 3.0 broadcasts will be using Dolby's new AC-4 codec for the soundtracks - does anyone know how that is being handled on the reception side? No AVRs yet have AC-4 decoding built in (to my knowledge), so are the tuners going to transcode the soundtrack to AC-3 (or perhaps EAC-3)? Or decode to PCM?

I can try to find out, but perhaps someone following this thread already knows.
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post #2943 of 2994 Old 06-30-2020, 10:46 AM
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The other side of the equation is advertising. Those commercials better look good to the client. If a jewelry commercial looks better on WXXX than on WYYY, WXXX will likely get the bigger guy. Economic disadvantage to WYYY.

You'd be surprised at how many station upgrades are driven by advertisers. I'm old enough to have worked in stations that had to buy tons of new gear just because ad agencies started delivering commercials in stereo and demanding they be aired that way. Get a handful of them to start doing those jewelry ads in 1080p HDR and watch how fast stations race to ATSC 3.0.
So that's the key! Convince these advertisers how much better their products will look with commercials produced and displayed in 4K HDR.
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So that's the key! Convince these advertisers how much better their products will look with commercials produced and displayed in 4K HDR.

I sure hope Dr. Don is right.
He's a pro.
Comcast apparently didn't get the memo regarding what advertisers want.
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post #2945 of 2994 Old 06-30-2020, 04:36 PM
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I could have turned off just Amber alerts, but I turn off all of them. I do not need my phone deciding for me that when I put my phone on "Vibrate" that I didn't actually want it to be silent other than vibrating. I'd prefer to see the alert quietly, but no such luck, so off they go.

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I would like to get rid of Verizon's insipid audible text notifications that my scheduled monthly payment has posted...

I can imagine a summer evening, with just the right tropo skip conditions, and hundreds of thousands of antenna-connected ATSC 3.0 sets just scanning the TV spectrum for alerts - a station in Florida sends out a tornado alert - and people across the east coast head to their basement...
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post #2946 of 2994 Old 06-30-2020, 05:59 PM
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The broadcasters found that 1080P HDR has the biggest impact. Viewers at normal viewing distances could not tell the difference.
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post #2947 of 2994 Old 06-30-2020, 11:49 PM
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I would like to get rid of Verizon's insipid audible text notifications that my scheduled monthly payment has posted...

I can imagine a summer evening, with just the right tropo skip conditions, and hundreds of thousands of antenna-connected ATSC 3.0 sets just scanning the TV spectrum for alerts - a station in Florida sends out a tornado alert - and people across the east coast head to their basement...

I would hope setup would be similar to a weather radio, with some version of a SAME Code, so you can set your county.
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post #2948 of 2994 Old 07-01-2020, 06:16 AM
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I would hope setup would be similar to a weather radio, with some version of a SAME Code, so you can set your county.
I think the whole idea is that ATSC 3.0 sets are location-aware. Might not need to set the actual location, but you might have to manually add in additional ones. I know, in Oklahoma, it's always wise to set those SAME radios for at least the next county to the west and southwest. In Florida, even the county alerts are a little useless. We can have severe thunderstorms that are only 10 miles wide. It's a bit annoying when St Petersburg is under a tornado warning while Clearwater has sunny skies. Honestly, the best weather alerts I get come from the MyRadar Pro app.

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Comcast apparently didn't get the memo regarding what advertisers want.
LOL (and thanks for the compliment). Comcast's primary customers are its subscribers. Local television stations' primary customers are advertisers. Comcast cable could care less about advertisers. Sure, it makes a little money from those local ad inserts on cable networks and some money from leased channels, but most of it's money comes from ordinary viewers.. who don't seem to be clamoring for a lot of 4K viewing, at least not in numbers large enough for them to sell. Being at bandwidth capacity, they'd need to make more money from 4k offerings than they'd lose from dropping other channels to fit some 4k in. Probably why they've pushed what 4k they have onto their streaming services. What's working for them is that all these people who bought 4k TVs THINK they're watching 4K all the time. My neighbor certainly does and he's a teacher. With the downward pressure on cable rates, a 4K tier is going to be a tough sell.

To keep close to the topic, the tougher sell is convincing all those people who have 4K TVs to buy another set or an STB and string up an antenna. For most of the Joe Sixpack world, that's a tall order. Gotta be something really cool to get them to do that. Something they can't get by less-expensive means.

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post #2949 of 2994 Old 07-01-2020, 09:55 AM
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The broadcasters found that 1080P HDR has the biggest impact. Viewers at normal viewing distances could not tell the difference.
Acturally 1080p HDR was a close 2nd in our tests and you are quite correct that they did not differentiate between the two sets but Atmos always scored higher on the gotta have scale. However, I always thought the Atmos demos were a bit misleading. For instance they showed a separate laugh track on a soccer game where a couple of guys made fun of the plays and/or players that you could listen to instead of the normal announce or the SAP announce. And they showed a number of in-car microphones on a NACAR race and being able to select which driver you listened to. They showed a football game (American football) with a home team announce, an away team announce, and nat sound only (no announce). While everything that was shown was possible on a 12 channel audio system, I doubt that it would happen very often. Production costs go up but viewership remains the same. Or worse, viewer confusion increases and actual viewership drops because they couldn't figure out how to get to 'normal' sounding audio.

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post #2950 of 2994 Old 07-01-2020, 10:13 AM
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I'm a prime example of what you mentioned below

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............
LOL (and thanks for the compliment). Comcast's primary customers are its subscribers. Local television stations' primary customers are advertisers. Comcast cable could care less about advertisers. Sure, it makes a little money from those local ad inserts on cable networks and some money from leased channels, but most of it's money comes from ordinary viewers.. who don't seem to be clamoring for a lot of 4K viewing, at least not in numbers large enough for them to sell. Being at bandwidth capacity, they'd need to make more money from 4k offerings than they'd lose from dropping other channels to fit some 4k in...........

What do I watch mostly on Comcast? Military History and American Heroes. Both are low budget low bandwidth standard definition reruns of military stuff, lots of it from the History channel when they actually did history. If they kicked them off for 4K soccer I would be really ticked. Apparently there must be other folks who feel the same way about their oddball channels.
Thanks Dr. Don. Your analysis makes perfect sense to me. It gives me SOME hope that ATSC 3.0 might actually be a good thing for folks like me if they go 1080p HDR and lots of sub-channels. And, as long as they don't start squeezing everybody's bandwidth so much that the picture isn't any good, it might work for us antenna folks.
What do you (and others) think about my off the wall theory that ATSC 3.0 will ultimately be about existing stations putting all their signals on fewer transmitters and selling their licenses?
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post #2951 of 2994 Old 07-01-2020, 12:48 PM
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What do you (and others) think about my off the wall theory that ATSC 3.0 will ultimately be about existing stations putting all their signals on fewer transmitters and selling their licenses?
I go back and forth on this one. On the one hand, in smaller markets, there might be some cost savings from doing that, though likely it'll be well past the 5-year minimum simulcast rule before tuner penetration is significant enough to sunset 1.0 transmissions. That pushes just a little cost savings off by ten or more years. But, hey, five stations agreeing on the signal with the best coverage and splitting the power bill might be attractive, assuming they can hold that coalition together until they can sunset.

On the other hand, maintaining the license is an opportunity to expand programming. Once penetration reaches that mythical "significant level" to afford 1.0 sunset, stations can revert to their own channels and use the additional bandwidth for all kinds of things. In a non-duopoly market, I'd be tempted to end the channel-sharing, go back to my own frequency. Even loading up with whatever diginets are around in 10 years would likely bring in more revenue than the cost savings realized from splitting an electric bill.

Another thing to consider is that they might never get a significant-enough penetration of tuners and revert back to 1.0. Look what happened to AM Stereo. Even HD Radio isn't delivering what it promised and it now has quite a bit of tuner penetration, mostly in recent-model cars. You see some subchannel ratings blips here and there, but not what the industry had hoped for (which is their own fault, but I digress). Heck, most car owners likely don't even know there ARE subchannels, let alone how to tune them. This could translate to owners of Next-Gen televisions, who just hook the thing to the cable box or Roku and go on about their lives.

Doc
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post #2952 of 2994 Old 07-01-2020, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by PaulGo View Post
The broadcasters found that 1080P HDR has the biggest impact. Viewers at normal viewing distances could not tell the difference.
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Originally Posted by bobchase View Post
Acturally 1080p HDR was a close 2nd in our tests and you are quite correct that they did not differentiate between the two sets but Atmos always scored higher on the gotta have scale. However, I always thought the Atmos demos were a bit misleading. For instance they showed a separate laugh track on a soccer game where a couple of guys made fun of the plays and/or players that you could listen to instead of the normal announce or the SAP announce. And they showed a number of in-car microphones on a NACAR race and being able to select which driver you listened to. They showed a football game (American football) with a home team announce, an away team announce, and nat sound only (no announce). While everything that was shown was possible on a 12 channel audio system, I doubt that it would happen very often. Production costs go up but viewership remains the same. Or worse, viewer confusion increases and actual viewership drops because they couldn't figure out how to get to 'normal' sounding audio.
Are these tests by local broadcasters or do they include networks, you know the people who'd actually fund content at higher PQ and SQ than we currently get with ATSC 1.0?
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post #2953 of 2994 Old 07-01-2020, 01:02 PM
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The information I obtained were from National Networks. One seminar was I believe revolved around why the Superbowl was in 1080p and the advantages of the HLG version of HDR for live broadcasts.
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post #2954 of 2994 Old 07-01-2020, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
Another thing to consider is that they might never get a significant-enough penetration of tuners and revert back to 1.0. Look what happened to AM Stereo. Even HD Radio isn't delivering what it promised and it now has quite a bit of tuner penetration, mostly in recent-model cars. You see some subchannel ratings blips here and there, but not what the industry had hoped for (which is their own fault, but I digress). Heck, most car owners likely don't even know there ARE subchannels, let alone how to tune them. This could translate to owners of Next-Gen televisions, who just hook the thing to the cable box or Roku and go on about their lives.

Doc
Yeah, this is a scenario I've considered possible, even likely, for awhile now. ATSC 3.0 never really takes off, just kinda fizzles out by the mid-20s due to consumer confusion/apathy/lack of tuner adoption.

Y'know how CBS All Access already includes a live stream of local CBS stations? Seems quite likely to me that by late 2024 (when Comcast will have sold off its third of Hulu to Disney and next-day access to NBC shows on Hulu will almost certainly cease, becoming a Peacock Premium-exclusive), we'll see Hulu include live streams of their local ABC affiliates and Peacock Premium do the same with NBC stations across the country. So those SVODs (currently priced $5-6/mo) will collectively offer the big 3 networks live, along with their affiliates' live local content. And now that PBS stations across the nation are equipped for live streaming (they've been on YouTube TV for months now), is it out of the question that they won't include the local station's live streams inside the PBS app eventually?

And as I've said before, whatever improvements we see in terms of picture and sound quality from the big broadcast networks via ATSC 3.0 will also come to those networks' own OTT streaming services too.

If such a scenario plays out, it will certainly obviate the need for messing with OTA antennas, whether for ATSC 1.0 or 3.0.
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post #2955 of 2994 Old 07-01-2020, 07:01 PM
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Are these tests by local broadcasters or do they include networks, you know the people who'd actually fund content at higher PQ and SQ than we currently get with ATSC 1.0?
Without breaking too many NDA's - Atmos programming and display equipment was supplied by Dolby. The 4k video programming was supplied by film studios who transferred it to 4k. In some cases the video was produced and edited at 8k and then down-res'ed to 4k and 2k for display. In no case were local broadcasters involved in the production, setup, or viewing. Participants were selected by a company that selects participants for studies based on their clients criteria (Age group, ethnicity, household location, etc.) The viewers (behind the one-way) were SVP's of Engineering and/or Marketing for networks, large station groups, consumer electronics manufactures, and lucky old me.
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post #2956 of 2994 Old 07-01-2020, 07:10 PM
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Ok, good to hear that big media companies are doing market research or at least focus groups of this type.
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post #2957 of 2994 Old 07-02-2020, 06:06 AM
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If such a scenario plays out, it will certainly obviate the need for messing with OTA antennas, whether for ATSC 1.0 or 3.0.
I basically agree but with a couple of caveats.

1) Folks on low bandwidth Internet. We have 7Mbps DSL so I'd rather not spend that bandwidth on TV.

2) Data caps, If ISP's impose data caps to save traditional cable TV revenue OTT alternatives will be severely limited.

/tom
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post #2958 of 2994 Old 07-02-2020, 10:34 AM
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I basically agree but with a couple of caveats.

1) Folks on low bandwidth Internet. We have 7Mbps DSL so I'd rather not spend that bandwidth on TV.

2) Data caps, If ISP's impose data caps to save traditional cable TV revenue OTT alternatives will be severely limited.

/tom
Oh sure, there are folks here and there in situations like yours who can't/won't stream video and will continue to rely on OTA TV or other means (e.g. satellite TV). And there are certainly folks who will continue to use an OTA antenna to get some or all of the major networks for free rather than get them as part of paid subscriptions to CBS AA, Hulu and Peacock.

My point is simply that IF we see the big broadcast networks and their local affiliates' live feeds get subsumed into those streaming services, it will cut into (but not eliminate) OTA viewership. And anything that cuts into OTA viewership is bad for a new form of OTA TV struggling to get off the ground.
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post #2959 of 2994 Old 07-02-2020, 02:19 PM
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Since US ATSC 3.0 broadcasts will be using Dolby's new AC-4 codec for the soundtracks - does anyone know how that is being handled on the reception side? No AVRs yet have AC-4 decoding built in (to my knowledge), so are the tuners going to transcode the soundtrack to AC-3 (or perhaps EAC-3)? Or decode to PCM?

I can try to find out, but perhaps someone following this thread already knows.
The device with the ATSC 3.0 tuner will have to do something since AC-4 is not backward compatible with DD+ or DD.

So I would think like in the early days of Blu-ray Disc, devices either re-encoded the content to DD or decoded it to PCM. And every device should be capable of dealing with stereo PCM.

I'm sure the streaming services will eventually want to get in on AC-4. Since it results in a 50% bandwidth reduction over using DD+. But like the switch to DD+, it will take years to accomplish.
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post #2960 of 2994 Old 07-02-2020, 03:13 PM
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Yeah, this is a scenario I've considered possible, even likely, for awhile now. ATSC 3.0 never really takes off, just kinda fizzles out by the mid-20s due to consumer confusion/apathy/lack of tuner adoption.

Y'know how CBS All Access already includes a live stream of local CBS stations? Seems quite likely to me that by late 2024 (when Comcast will have sold off its third of Hulu to Disney and next-day access to NBC shows on Hulu will almost certainly cease, becoming a Peacock Premium-exclusive), we'll see Hulu include live streams of their local ABC affiliates and Peacock Premium do the same with NBC stations across the country. So those SVODs (currently priced $5-6/mo) will collectively offer the big 3 networks live, along with their affiliates' live local content. And now that PBS stations across the nation are equipped for live streaming (they've been on YouTube TV for months now), is it out of the question that they won't include the local station's live streams inside the PBS app eventually?

And as I've said before, whatever improvements we see in terms of picture and sound quality from the big broadcast networks via ATSC 3.0 will also come to those networks' own OTT streaming services too.

If such a scenario plays out, it will certainly obviate the need for messing with OTA antennas, whether for ATSC 1.0 or 3.0.

OTA won't go anywhere soon. YouTube TV just raised their rates to $65/mo.. Those OTT live-tv + 80 channel packages aren't a sustainable business model. Sony couldn't make it work with PS Vue either.
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post #2961 of 2994 Old 07-02-2020, 03:17 PM
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The device with the ATSC 3.0 tuner will have to do something since AC-4 is not backward compatible with DD+ or DD.

So I would think like in the early days of Blu-ray Disc, devices either re-encoded the content to DD or decoded it to PCM. And every device should be capable of dealing with stereo PCM.

I'm sure the streaming services will eventually want to get in on AC-4. Since it results in a 50% bandwidth reduction over using DD+. But like the switch to DD+, it will take years to accomplish.
But what's the licensing going to be like?

When you look at video player apps. these days, you have to pay just to get access to common codecs like AC3.
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post #2962 of 2994 Old 07-02-2020, 10:17 PM
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OTA won't go anywhere soon. YouTube TV just raised their rates to $65/mo.. Those OTT live-tv + 80 channel packages aren't a sustainable business model. Sony couldn't make it work with PS Vue either.
OTA has an age problem. Younger viewers are heavily OTT but no OTA, a lot of network TV is being consumed on Hulu. OTA will die in a flurry of digi-nets and sub-channels. It'll take about 10 years..
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post #2963 of 2994 Old 07-03-2020, 04:35 AM
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OTA has an age problem. Younger viewers are heavily OTT but no OTA, a lot of network TV is being consumed on Hulu. OTA will die in a flurry of digi-nets and sub-channels. It'll take about 10 years..

That's good. I'm 72 . Depending upon the accuracy of your prediction and my life expectancy, it might not affect me!
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post #2964 of 2994 Old 07-03-2020, 08:47 AM
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OTA has an age problem. Younger viewers are heavily OTT but no OTA, a lot of network TV is being consumed on Hulu. OTA will die in a flurry of digi-nets and sub-channels. It'll take about 10 years..
This is true, but I don't think it has to be this way. I am always surprised at how poorly the broadcast TV industry advertises itself. The networks should run ads saying "Did you know that in most American cities HDTV is available for free?" There should be a kiosk at Best Buy, with a map that shows where the local broadcast towers are, a selection of antennas on display, and a list of local channels. Hell, they should be running ads on YouTube letting the kids know what's out there.

I mean, 4K television broadcast is coming soon, but no civilians know that. You have to be following industry news rather closely, or reading AVSForum, to even know this is happening.
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post #2965 of 2994 Old 07-03-2020, 09:05 AM
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I am always surprised at how poorly the broadcast TV industry advertises itself. The networks should run ads saying "Did you know that in most American cities HDTV is available for free?" There should be a kiosk at Best Buy, with a map that shows where the local broadcast towers are, a selection of antennas on display, and a list of local channels. Hell, they should be running ads on YouTube letting the kids know what's out there.
As retrans fees are a significant source of station revenue, moving viewers from MPVDs to OTA is counterproductive which is why you rarely hear them touting it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dschulz View Post
I mean, 4K television broadcast is coming soon, but no civilians know that.
You have to have a product before you can sell it. It's like saying "MagLev trains are coming soon." Been hearing that for what, 30 years? None of the networks have announced any plans, so why tell anyone until that happens? Only FOX seems to be interested in 1080p HDR which, I guarantee you, "civilians" don't comprehend.

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post #2966 of 2994 Old 07-03-2020, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by bobchase View Post
During Katrina, there were no cell towers left to connect to. The temporary towers that went up the first week were locked out to the general public. During the wildfires here in Arizona, the closer you are to the fire zone, the harder it is to get a cell connection. Meanwhile, TV stations stay on the air and they continue to deliver the news.
And somehow their TV has power?

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Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
LOL (and thanks for the compliment). Comcast's primary customers are its subscribers. Local television stations' primary customers are advertisers. Comcast cable could care less about advertisers. Sure, it makes a little money from those local ad inserts on cable networks and some money from leased channels, but most of it's money comes from ordinary viewers.. who don't seem to be clamoring for a lot of 4K viewing, at least not in numbers large enough for them to sell. Being at bandwidth capacity, they'd need to make more money from 4k offerings than they'd lose from dropping other channels to fit some 4k in. Probably why they've pushed what 4k they have onto their streaming services. What's working for them is that all these people who bought 4k TVs THINK they're watching 4K all the time. My neighbor certainly does and he's a teacher. With the downward pressure on cable rates, a 4K tier is going to be a tough sell.
There's always the rather foreign concept to Comcast of actually doing upgrades to have more bandwidth. That's not really the issue though, they can do IP delivery at smaller scale, but the issue is that the people watching Comcast cable are the older, less sophisticated viewers, and Comcast has proven with their absurdly over-compressed 720p that they are oblivious to VQ. The viewers who care are watching stuff mostly on streaming, and some of the streaming has gotten so good that it's hard to tell 1080p from 4k at this point. YouTube's 1080p is incredible, 4k is a bit sharper, but not that much. Netflix does amazing 4k, but I'd suspect that most people watching it are just watching it because their TV happens to have 4k.

I think OTA has blown it, and everything is going to move eventually to streaming. For now, I'll keep enjoying PBS, 60 Minutes, and a few other things from OTA.
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post #2967 of 2994 Old 07-03-2020, 12:52 PM
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BiggAW,
I watch a lot of sports and local news OTA whenever I can.
As you mentioned, TV looks a lot better OTA than Comcast!
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post #2968 of 2994 Old 07-03-2020, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dschulz View Post
This is true, but I don't think it has to be this way. I am always surprised at how poorly the broadcast TV industry advertises itself. The networks should run ads saying "Did you know that in most American cities HDTV is available for free?" There should be a kiosk at Best Buy, with a map that shows where the local broadcast towers are, a selection of antennas on display, and a list of local channels. Hell, they should be running ads on YouTube letting the kids know what's out there.

I mean, 4K television broadcast is coming soon, but no civilians know that. You have to be following industry news rather closely, or reading AVSForum, to even know this is happening.
Free won't give you time, live TV viewing is what keeps OTA alive, when there is no need for that bye bye. OTA dvr's are not a growth industry. People work crazy work hours, have education debt, kids, second jobs (side-hustles) to survive. Live TV is going away and streaming is growing. Free doesn't buy you time, it's the new reality.
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post #2969 of 2994 Old 07-03-2020, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
As retrans fees are a significant source of station revenue, moving viewers from MPVDs to OTA is counterproductive which is why you rarely hear them touting it.



You have to have a product before you can sell it. It's like saying "MagLev trains are coming soon." Been hearing that for what, 30 years? None of the networks have announced any plans, so why tell anyone until that happens? Only FOX seems to be interested in 1080p HDR which, I guarantee you, "civilians" don't comprehend.
Civilians : " Where is the 4K programs you promised me" " No 4K...no sale...

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post #2970 of 2994 Old 07-03-2020, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenthplanet View Post
Civilians : " Where is the 4K programs you promised me" " No 4K...no sale...
LOL! I think it's more like: Civilians: "I bought a 4K TV and now everything looks great." ...while hooked to cable. (This is actually from my neighbors, both school teachers).
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