Over the many decades the physical bandwidth for OTA TV keeps shrinking. - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 163 Old 11-25-2018, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post
BTW: Nielsen estimates that 4% of Homes have NO TV's....but again you have to be careful how you phrase the question....this presumably does NOT include those (mostly Millennials) who use their Laptop to "Watch TV"....either via their I-N Feed....or perhaps a USB Thumbdrive OTA Tuner [my FAV when on-the-road, incl. a suitcase packable Silver Sensor Antenna].
And some of those "computer monitors" are as big or larger than some people's TVs.
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post #92 of 163 Old 11-26-2018, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post
Bear in mind that when Nielsen Pollsters ask about TV "Penetration", the "Broadcast-Only or OTA" question is for those who ONLY use an Antenna....and hence does NOT include those who might have SAT/CATV to their Primary and Antenna to the other TV's in the house.....or who use Internet Streamers [presumably Source is "CABLE"???] plus OTA Antenna....or SAT plus OTA Antenna for either higher Rez Signals or for channels missing from SAT. So there is a significant UNDER-COUNTING of homes with TV Antennas. Also note that MANY cities are significantly higher than the latest 20% statistic for "OTA" Penetration:
https://www.tvb.org/Public/Research/.../CableADS.aspx [May 2018 stats are a bit outdated.]

"Broadcast-Only or OTA: Homes that receive the broadcast signal via the use of a special antenna to pick up the digital signal broadcasted by the television station. Wired cable and/or satellite boxes are not used."

BTW: Nielsen estimates that 4% of Homes have NO TV's....but again you have to be careful how you phrase the question....this presumably does NOT include those (mostly Millennials) who use their Laptop to "Watch TV"....either via their I-N Feed....or perhaps a USB Thumbdrive OTA Tuner [my FAV when on-the-road, incl. a suitcase packable Silver Sensor Antenna].

PS: There are about 2 to 2.5 TV's per TV Household....and with 90% SMART TV's being sold plus computers, MOST Households can "Watch TV"....or other Video Programs....via Internet by one way or another:
https://www.marketingcharts.com/digi...devices-105538


PPS: On the AVERAGE, US viewers only spend about 5% of their viewing time via an OTA Antenna:
https://www.marketingcharts.com/char...-2016-july2018
Ah - that's a very different question than is framed in the UK. Here Ofcom capture the total number of OTA-only AND OTA+Pay-TV platform households. OTA-only is still the UK's most dominant platform, and once you consider OTA+Pay TV (usually OTA in secondary or tertiary viewing areas like bedrooms, kitchens etc. with Pay in the primary viewing location only - usually a living room) OTA is present in the vast majority of UK households.
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post #93 of 163 Old 11-26-2018, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by TampBayOTA View Post
Look at the C/Ku band stuff... all the good stuff is encrypted... you might catch some wild feeds and SNG stuff if you are persistent in the clear....
Wrong. ABC, CBS, CW, NBC and PBS network sat feeds are not encrypted.
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Hype much! That math is bogus! The networks produce the shows
Wrong again. No network is allowed to produce shows. They have to purchase them. Yes, ABC buys a lot of shows from ABC Studios, CBS from CBS studios, etc., but they are separate companies.

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post #94 of 163 Old 11-26-2018, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Bismarck440 View Post
my HOA's ban on outdoor antennas
As been said many a time here, HOAs cannot ban OTA antennas. If you own, or rent, a house, you can put up an antenna. You don't own an apartment, but you can put up an antenna in your common space. Go back to your HOA and tell them to shove it because it is against the law to try and ban OTA antennas.
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post #95 of 163 Old 11-26-2018, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post
Wrong. ABC, CBS, CW, NBC and PBS network sat feeds are not encrypted.
WRONG!

Not talking about them!

Same sat:

Code:
GetTV 	
	MPEG-2/SD
Director 	  131	  33 	  36 Eng AC3
	
Grit 	
	MPEG-2/SD
Director 	  132	 272 	 288 Eng AC3
	
Escape 	
	MPEG-2/SD
Director 	  133	 784 	 800 Eng AC3
	
Laff 	
	MPEG-2/SD
Director

Scripps Networks 	
	Digicipher 2
	19510-3/4
	589-? 
	Kyl 416
151103

.
	Food Network East 	
	

	    1	 100 	 Eng
	
DIY Network USA 	
	

	    2	 200 	 Eng
	
Cooking Channel 	
	

	    3	 300 	 Eng
	
HGTV East 	
	

	    4	 400 	 Eng
	
Food Network West 	
	

	    5	 500 	 Eng
	
HGTV West 	
	

	    6	 600 	 Eng
	
Travel Channel East 	
	

	    7	 800 	 Eng
	
Great American Country 	
	

	    8	 700 	 Eng
	
Travel Channel West


Its not like the days of old put up a C band dish, and get a VCII box and get all sorts of stuff...

All the stuff that is of importance is encrypted nagra, powervu, BMAC. etc..


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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post
Wrong again. No network is allowed to produce shows. They have to purchase them. Yes, ABC buys a lot of shows from ABC Studios, CBS from CBS studios, etc., but they are separate companies.
At least you get it you are wrong... its a shell game... doesn't change a thing.

The networks play the same old shell games that others play... CBS Productions, ABC Studios etc... this is still the networks... So they shop some stuff to others... versus it all going to their network..... And Today is not produced by NBC???? I don't think so.. Oh its news... NOT!

The NETWORKS pick the shows, not the affiliates except for syndi stuff.. which is nothing but heinous judge shows, phil, and not even a good phil! I remember watching Phila Donahue as a kid, and I had NO CLUE what was going on! NONE! It was still better than this crap today! During the local insomnia period one of the stations runs some stupid bunch of idiots playing tricks on people... they ran this at lke 2100, obviously as a test, and it didn't go well so now its back to 0300 where it belongs if you have to air that filth.

Some of the station groups might produce some stuff... like in the past MultiMedia produced Bob Braun.. and it was on Cincy, Indy, CMH, and other stations in the region ....

Hearst is doing some stuff in MCO (WESH? Too lazy to look up) that then gets aired on WMOR at times... snooooreeeee... just show LMS and spare me the liberal slander.

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post #96 of 163 Old 11-26-2018, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Bismarck440 View Post
Supposedly a more robust signal from Low VHF to where they cut it off @ channel 36, this remains to be seen.
Exactly, wait to be seen.... on paper and if you compare DVBT with COFDM it works better than 8VSB... So again we will see.

I wish there was a 3.0 test in my area or areas I travel to... but there is not.


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Originally Posted by Bismarck440 View Post
You dislike the Local affiliate model?

YES! Violently VEHEMENTLY! Its outdated! Die die die die ! at least 20 years outdated... DBS should have kicked ABC etc. to move to sat dist to homes.


The UK FreeVIew system solves 80% of the stupidity the US just keeps repeating.... ... again look at the SFO and CLE threads about stations on towers all over the place versus one tower(s) in the region and point a reasonable antenna at it/them.

You tune in to watch x show, KDKA or KCBS is irrelevant.. CBS is the important thing.... no body tunes in to the GDKA to get BBC! Yes I am fully aware of the UK and EU tv model evolved totally different... the point remains... they tune into to BBC for x, not y for x...

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post #97 of 163 Old 11-26-2018, 09:32 AM
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post #98 of 163 Old 11-26-2018, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by TampBayOTA View Post
The UK FreeVIew system solves 80% of the stupidity the US just keeps repeating.... ... again look at the SFO and CLE threads about stations on towers all over the place versus one tower(s) in the region and point a reasonable antenna at it/them.
The UK has had co-sited transmitters for a long time - even in the days of analogue UHF PAL. Half the sites were owned by the BBC, the other by the IBA (the commercial broadcast umbrella for the ITV regional companies and Channel Four), but they each leases space on each others masts - so viewers only had to point at one transmitter, and could use directional antennas (aerials).

This approach has continued for digital TV - but both the BBC and IBA transmitter sites and transmitters are now owned by Arqiva (a commercial company)

Quote:
You tune in to watch x show, KDKA or KCBS is irrelevant.. CBS is the important thing.... no body tunes in to the GDKA to get BBC! Yes I am fully aware of the UK and EU tv model evolved totally different... the point remains... they tune into to BBC for x, not y for x...
Yes - the UK commercial 'ITV' network started in the 50s as a federation of regional broadcasters who shared programmes between themselves, particularly in prime time. Since the 90s there has been a massive merger - so there are now just two ITV companies - one for Scotland, and the other for the rest of the UK (and the Channel Islands) - though there are local news operations across the country, and regional advertising still (so you watch the same shows across the UK, but with different, localised, commercials).

The original model was not a million miles away from the US affiliate model - but the network was co-operatively managed between the companies, rather than being a separate commercial entity. It's probably as close to Europe got to the US model - which is now totally alien to us, as we are a continent of national networks.

We even have a nationwide channel numbering scheme so BBC One is on Channel 1, BBC Two on Channel 2, ITV on Channel 3 etc. (or 101-103 for HD)

The other big difference in Europe is that there are either FTA or very low cost satellite services for the main OTA stations that don't require large monthly subscriptions (either no subscription or a small annual charge)

Of course most European countries have a TV Licence fee or similar household public service broadcasting tax/levy...
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post #99 of 163 Old 11-26-2018, 01:09 PM
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As been said many a time here, HOAs cannot ban OTA antennas. If you own, or rent, a house, you can put up an antenna. You don't own an apartment, but you can put up an antenna in your common space. Go back to your HOA and tell them to shove it because it is against the law to try and ban OTA antennas.
It is not all cut & dried as it seems & that is even stated in the OTARD document, there is a legal loophole for HOA's to ban where such devices may be mounted.

Actually the roof is a said defined "Limited Common" area of my dwelling, as is the siding. The building rows, units or whatever we call them, were originally built with a common antenna per, serving anywhere from 4-12 units.

Going into a new re-roof cycle, it was decided nothing will (or "shall") be mounted on replaced roofs including dishes, The Siding also considered Limited common also, though we are welcome to mount such devices on the Limited common Patio areas than include walls &/or privacy fencing.

There were bylaws stating any said device shall not be mounted on fronts of dwellings, though my patio faces opposite of the directions of the antenna & mounting it on my privacy wall would be pointless.

I'm sure after 5 years or so of turnover someone will break the no roof rule with a dish. I doubt no one actually reads that book for it's size & use of legalese.

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Originally Posted by TampBayOTA View Post
Exactly, wait to be seen.... on paper and if you compare DVBT with COFDM it works better than 8VSB... So again we will see.

I wish there was a 3.0 test in my area or areas I travel to... but there is not.

YES! Violently VEHEMENTLY! Its outdated! Die die die die ! at least 20 years outdated... DBS should have kicked ABC etc. to move to sat dist to homes.

The UK FreeVIew system solves 80% of the stupidity the US just keeps repeating.... ... again look at the SFO and CLE threads about stations on towers all over the place versus one tower(s) in the region and point a reasonable antenna at it/them.

You tune in to watch x show, KDKA or KCBS is irrelevant.. CBS is the important thing.... no body tunes in to the GDKA to get BBC! Yes I am fully aware of the UK and EU tv model evolved totally different... the point remains... they tune into to BBC for x, not y for x...
They tested the ATSC 3 here on WJW on RF 31, & then again briefly on RF 9, though the results were pretty much based on the RF 31 findings, I would occasionally see these stations in operation of ATSC 1 in the mornings here for their transmitter warm up. There also did not appear to be any night time testing going on (to protect Canada & besides no one wants to work at night anyway). When they switch over to ATSC 3 you really don't see anything as our current. They appeared to be broadcasting a Video Loop from Oregon PBS with a couple of subs & an audio channel, & used 10 as it's virtual channel.

You referring to the model on each network broadcasts on one Physical Channel, or one virtual channel? Or we would be on something similar to an FTA Sat regional system?

One thing I used to enjoy when traveling (I used to travel occasionally many years ago), was the local flair in Radio & sometimes TV outside of network hours, that ambiance is now gone, as everyone wants to be fed the hip & cool garbage over cable... but hey? even TBS used to be WTCG an independent UHF in Atlanta.
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post #100 of 163 Old 11-26-2018, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Bismarck440 View Post
One thing I used to enjoy when traveling (I used to travel occasionally many years ago), was the local flair in Radio & sometimes TV outside of network hours, that ambiance is now gone,
When I was a teen and visiting my family in California... I used to love seeing Cal Worthington commercials.



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post #101 of 163 Old 11-26-2018, 01:56 PM
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WRONG!

Not talking about them!
Then say so. This topic is about OTA. Plus your statement about all the good stuff being encrypted is way too broad. I guess you don't consider the major networks as good stuff. Just pointing out that your all inclusinve "encrypted" statement was incorrect.
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All the stuff that is of importance is encrypted nagra, powervu, BMAC. etc..
Your definition of importance is more-than-likely different that another's definition of importance.
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At least you get it you are wrong...
It seems that you don't.
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The networks play the same old shell games that others play... CBS Productions, ABC Studios etc... this is still the networks...
Technically it is not.
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And Today is not produced by NBC???? I don't think so.. Oh its news... NOT!
Those live shows are not included.

If you hate TV so much, why do you bother to even have any means of watching television?
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post #102 of 163 Old 11-26-2018, 02:06 PM
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Actually the roof is a said defined "Limited Common" area of my dwelling, as is the siding. The building rows, units or whatever we call them, were originally built with a common antenna per, serving anywhere from 4-12 units.
Sounds like you do not live in a single family, or duplex, home.

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post #103 of 163 Old 11-26-2018, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by sneals2000 View Post
The UK has had co-sited transmitters for a long time - even in the days of analogue UHF PAL.
And look at the land area that is covered in the U.K. vs. the land area that is covered in the U.S. Major difference. IMHO, apples and oranges.

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post #104 of 163 Old 11-26-2018, 02:20 PM
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And look at the land area that is covered in the U.K. vs. the land area that is covered in the U.S. Major difference. IMHO, apples and oranges.
Yes - but why does this mean transmitters covering the same area shouldn't be co-sited as in most European countries?

If you have NBC, ABC, CBS, Fox affiliate or O&Os + PBS and other stations covering the same area - doesn't it make sense to have them all broadcasting from the same mast (and with a shared backup facility should that be deemed suitable?), allowing high-gain antennas for that area to point in one direction? Or does this not make sense in a US context? (I know you guys have more challenging weather and seismic conditions that may mean eggs in one basket isn't a great idea - but equally a shared backup may also make sense?)

If you have challenging geography, SFNs using COFDM within a region allow for on-frequency repeaters to fill in coverage gaps too? (AIUI ATSC 1.0 has some SFN capabilities that are now being investigated? We have two UK-wide SFNs for national networks now being rolled out - C55 and C56 will carry two nationwide muxes that were previously on different channels area-by-area)

Does it make sense for individual stations to have separate transmission facilities on different sites (if this is the US case AIUI?), rather than a nationwide, planned, network designed to optimise coverage for your population? The UK TV transmitter network is only 1156 transmitter sites (some carry all 6 UK services, others carry just 3) - which I'm sure is a small number compared to the US. If you have a co-ordinated transmitter network you also get the benefits of cross-network guide data, properly managed 7 day programme guides, PVR triggers etc. To a European it's very strange to see how PSIP is implemented in a slightly haphazard way in the US, when I get full 7 day EPG information for all my OTA services, whichever OTA service I am watching.

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Sounds like you do not live in a single family, or duplex, home.
Cluster Home/Condo
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post #106 of 163 Old 11-26-2018, 05:59 PM
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Yes - but why does this mean transmitters covering the same area shouldn't be co-sited as in most European countries?
In Madison, we basically do. Originally no. Before the candelabra was erected, all of the stations had their own towers. A short piece of two of the towers still remain. The following affiliates are on one tower: ABC, CBS, Fox, PBS and two on another: NBC, CW.

Because of land that the UW owned was basically sold, the PBS tower had to go away. So, they built the new candelabra and sold space on it. The NBC affiliate dragged its heals (not unusual) and got left off the tower. The CW affiliate, at the time, had their tower in Janesville and wanted to move to Madison. This was during the digital transition. Since they couldn't go on the candelabra (overloaded as it was), so they said that they would build a new tower on the NBC affiliate property. The local management wanted nothing to do with that, but the owner
said they will. They would have been happy with the side-mounted lower power digital antenna. (See tower construction images here) It is funny how things work out, as the CW affiliate gave up the affiliation and the NBC affiliate now handles both (though the CW is downgraded to 720p).

The two sticks on the top of the tower are no longer used as they were for the analog signal. The side-mount is the digital antenna.

There is at least one low-power station that has its own short mast somewhere. So, instead of six towers in our area, we only have two.

San Francisco has a lot of TV/FM on a master tower. Phoenix has all of their towers on South Mountain. While not confined to only a few towers, at least they are confined to a single location.
Quote:
If you have NBC, ABC, CBS, Fox affiliate or O&Os + PBS and other stations covering the same area - doesn't it make sense to have them all broadcasting from the same mast (and with a shared backup facility should that be deemed suitable?), allowing high-gain antennas for that area to point in one direction? Or does this not make sense in a US context? (I know you guys have more challenging weather and seismic conditions that may mean eggs in one basket isn't a great idea - but equally a shared backup may also make sense?)
No directional antennas here. All are omni-directional. Both locations have a backup generator. Neither of which are UPS configured, i.e., motor-generator-diesel engine. If the power goes out, going to backup power requires manual intervention.
Quote:
If you have challenging geography, SFNs using COFDM within a region allow for on-frequency repeaters to fill in coverage gaps too? (AIUI ATSC 1.0 has some SFN capabilities that are now being investigated? We have two UK-wide SFNs for national networks now being rolled out - C55 and C56 will carry two nationwide muxes that were previously on different channels area-by-area)
As you know, we do not use COFDM. IMHO, a mistake. No SFN capability around here. Channel allocation is tight. Getting FCC permission to expand the coverage area would not happen.
Quote:
Does it make sense for individual stations to have separate transmission facilities on different sites (if this is the US case AIUI?), rather than a nationwide, planned, network designed to optimise coverage for your population? The UK TV transmitter network is only 1156 transmitter sites (some carry all 6 UK services, others carry just 3) - which I'm sure is a small number compared to the US. If you have a co-ordinated transmitter network you also get the benefits of cross-network guide data, properly managed 7 day programme guides, PVR triggers etc. To a European it's very strange to see how PSIP is implemented in a slightly haphazard way in the US, when I get full 7 day EPG information for all my OTA services, whichever OTA service I am watching.
1156 sites. That seems way too high. The little BBC guide that I got in '72 had nowhere near that number of sites for TV. Maybe I should look at it again. To cover our population would require many times more than that. Then there is the issue of time zones. CBS and The CW do not have a Mountain feed. Local affiliates have to record the East feed and play it out at their time. And then there is Arizona, which doesn't do daylight saving, basically making it 5 time zones to deal with.

For many, I suspect that a single program guide for all the OTAs would be nice.

Getting a nice setup that the U.K. has will never happen here. Tons of money was spent going digital. Trying to get more money to go consolidated... not so much.

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Cluster Home/Condo
Yep, that throws a monkey wrench into the works.

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post #108 of 163 Old 11-26-2018, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by sneals2000 View Post
If you have NBC, ABC, CBS, Fox affiliate or O&Os + PBS and other stations covering the same area - doesn't it make sense to have them all broadcasting from the same mast (and with a shared backup facility should that be deemed suitable?), allowing high-gain antennas for that area to point in one direction? Or does this not make sense in a US context? (I know you guys have more challenging weather and seismic conditions that may mean eggs in one basket isn't a great idea - but equally a shared backup may also make sense?)
Apparently that just makes too much sense for the US- but it would make life a lot easier. However, there are weird split markets, like Hartford-New Haven, Providence-New Bedford (not sure about physical rx sites though), and others where there are multiple cities in the DMA, each with some of their own stations. Then you've got ones like Boston where WMUR in New Hampshire is part of the DMA, even though all the main Boston stations broadcast out of Needham.
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post #109 of 163 Old 11-27-2018, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
When I was a teen and visiting my family in California... I used to love seeing Cal Worthington commercials.
Exactly what i'm getting at along with your Friday/Saturday night monster movie host. There was a guy in Florida that sold cars in the commercial breaks while showing Sunday Afternoon Movies... locally produced, creative & colorful (open Sundays AFTER Church!). This overspills into radio, now we only want "one" the one that is deemed the "Best"... canned stuff everyone would prefer to pay a premium for.


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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post
Sounds like you do not live in a single family, or duplex, home.
Nothing would make me happier than to put up a monstrosity antenna in the patio on a 12 foot mast (I think I could be rationally allowed to do that), but unfortunately it would not do me any better than the attic setup.

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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

San Francisco has a lot of TV/FM on a master tower. Phoenix has all of their towers on South Mountain. While not confined to only a few towers, at least they are confined to a single location.

No directional antennas here. All are omni-directional. Both locations have a backup generator. Neither of which are UPS configured, i.e., motor-generator-diesel engine. If the power goes out, going to backup power requires manual intervention..
Generally the CLE stations reside on the "Farm", (half dozen or so towers) within a mile, perhaps a bit more radius, though that where the directional factors come into play with the same channels in Canada, a North/Northeast null becomes common, diminishing the signal, plus the terrain ridge shadowing signals to the East, Northeast not helping.... & no secondary Market, the Erie Stations barely make it into Ohio even being only 20 miles from the border, but that's where the Erie DMA ends.
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post #110 of 163 Old 11-29-2018, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
Your post is a rambling mess, but you have some good points. This point is not one of them, as roughly 20% of households use OTA. Many antennas are in the attic or indoors, so you can't see them.
In my area you are NOT going to put an antenna INSIDE with those stupid floppy disks or other junk and get much of anything.

I've been there done it... tried it for the thrill of it...

I drive around and see very very few antennas... and if they don't have antenna they have a dish... My street... 99% is DBS. Why?

The simple fact is stats are made up by who ever makes them up... my drives in the area, still show very very very few antennas...

I've got some pointed in directions that clearly are not functional to receive anything. IOW Not pointed to Lithia or towards Bithlo which would be a stretch for these.... Go over about 5 miles and you might get some of the MCO stuff... But not all of it...These things are pointed near NW to N when they need to be S, SW for Lithia...

Others are clearly remants of a by gone time.. in disrepeair, cut twin lead flapping in the wind.... etc...

Yes I notice these things... Anything with an antenna gets my attention.


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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post

Not if some of those people switch from DISH to cable or visa versa as a result.
Right now, right this second if the DBS, MSO's and the IPTV's said your choice, Must Carry or BYE BYE. Who has more to loose?????

Broadcasters! 90+% of the viewers get the signal either via DBS or MSO, and a fraction via IPTV...

If the MSO's/DBS cut off the viewers then then those ads are worthless!

Yes, the MSO/DBS would take heat for it...and sub losses... but you do it with full disclosure... "Sinclair wants $2.00/month for WJNK so we've decided to remove it or they can offer it to us under Must Carry.... " A few of these and this crap would be over! The MSO/DBS are too scare too loose a few customers over this... welp your loosing them now, a few more ain't going to matter!

Few people are going to put up an antenna today. they've been too brainwashed against it now..... Maybe 3.0 helps this... remains to be seen.



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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
That's a kind of interesting idea, but you do need local affiliates if you want OTA reception for free, which is what we currently have. If OTA disappears, then you'd have to pay for the content, and the big four would become just another cable channel among hundreds. That being said, the DMA rules are completely bizarre, retransmission consent is a totally broken rip-off of a system, and clearly the whole thing is falling apart because of the networks' greed to charge ever more for less. From a pure efficiency perspective though, your idea, which I think leads to combining RSNs with regional news and weather is actually brilliant, as it puts all of the regionalized live content into a single channel that could then be distributed in 4k. However, that would not be a free OTA feed.
Nope. OTA doesn't go anywhere.. refer to UK FreeView... 100's of channels FREE, F-R-E-E! That transmission model... the RSN's would still be the RSN's... of course if they'd like to offer them over a part of the mux for a fee go right ahead...

Sports then you dedicate 2-3 channels to what ever filth is designated for that region....So sports 1 runs the anointed AFL game this week, sports 2 runs the anointed NFC game.... This is still done by who ever CBS, NBC, who ever it just appears on a designated channel for ti... nothing really changes... Remember KDKA is gone.. its ABC, CBS, NBC on the 101,102,103... they would showing who knows what junk.... US5 could move to a model more like HBO etc. where they show the PT stuff more often, or maybe enven produce more stuff... although getting some decent to watch out of that could be a problem.

News... In my area there basically is 5 news ops... combine them in to one.. it would eliminate a lot of waste.

WX... A channel with the local WSR88D, a NOAA WX Wire chryon ticker, graphics, and 24/7/365 NWR audio... no bimbos or dolts! IOW no chromakey! Real meteorologist from NOAA would program that channel. Each WFO would do this as part of their duties. And YES I would GLADLY PAY HIGHER TAXES to IMPROVE NOAA operations.....Another part of this would be an EMBEDDED EMWIN data stream like KET did (its still there, but few receive it or know what to do with it) of the WX Wire... that way users like me could have that data spew out... Smart TV's and boxes could store that data for display etc..

AWARN is an even bigger mess than EAS...



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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
I think this is a technological legacy issue. We had TV way before a lot of other places, and as a result, we are stuck with this legacy broadcaster model, even though other parts of the world that got TV well into the satellite age have embraced FTA satellite in a big way.
We don't have to be stuck with it! We need to change it.. its been broken for 20 years, and down right dead for at least the 9 since the full time switch to ATSC....

ATSC created a lot of a mess, 8VSB for one..... then with clinging to this outdated model we got people trying to get things that can't because we inefficiently using the spectrum that remains. WIth 14-36 really the only viable prime area, with 7-13 not being a bad 2nd choice, thats very little spectrum to shove alot of stuff into! We keep trying to have tech fixes to our Model T. Its time to get a car from the last century at least...

Think about all the threads here, and especially some of the one in CLE and SFO, with people trying to get signals all over the compass... 98% of that crap could just go away! Some of the same stuff would remain especially for those that end up on the fringes of the regions tower site(s)... but if the UK can figure this out, then the US should be able to dit, and do 100000000x better.

Watch Doc Martin, etc... and you will see nice UHF yagis on homes... 500 year old homes and buildings with TV antennas! Here its near sacrilege for that on a 2018 home let alone anything built 200 years ago!



Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
Trip in VA still has a perfectly valid point though. Networks without retrans fees can't compete with cable networks that are getting carriage fees.
BS! They did it for years before retrans!



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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
That's a separate issue, but it's true that their ratings are plummeting while their rates go through the roof, which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. They're stuck in an old, outdated model, and can't keep producing half-baked crap when the streaming services that are competing for eyeball-hours are producing some of the best content in the history of television.
I've got news for the US5....they better start looking to what is going on in AU, UK, EI, FR, and other places even CA!

I watch more shows from ONE of them than the entire US5 combined! Private Eyes is a Global(?) show that finally landed ION as a US outlet... 800 Words from AU 7. I am not aware of it ever getting US dist.... Bellevue and another cop show from CA.... Theres another CA show about a reporter that I think is coming back for more... Thats 3 from CA right there... Then we can start with all the UK stuff... Bodyguard, Unforgotten... remember these may be show on various IPTV and/or cable channels now in the US, but in the respective countries these are OTA SHOWS.... I watch them hours or at least they show up hours after airing.. .some I watch later.....Right now my recordings I can watch on my RDO... thats how far down it is...

IPTV offerings, we got Bosch. A++++++ show.... There is still junk... there is a thread on another area here listing "top" IPTV Shows.. the top listed one is so vulgar and offensive, and the remainder ain't much better. There definitely si some good stuff... Man High Castle, House of Cards, which was quite good as a remake... I've seen the originals from the UK... that was top notch... Mariselles is good if you can handle French... and it shows that politics in the US is not the only place FUBAR'D!

Then there is Crackle... I just finished up Startup S3 last night... that show has more bodies attached to it than any gang drug war! Theres other good stuff there.. the Art Heist show, Snatch, Oath, and another cop show I forget the name of....

And there sits US5.......BBT...

I can remember when having to switch between channels was a must before the VCR came along... And then even not having enough tape or VCR's to record it all... Now????? 1, one stinking show... which I am only watching to finish it out... Its lost its hook a long time ago.. The reruns on WMOR are better....

Then you add in Star Trek, McHales Navy, Father Knows Best, I dream fof Jeanie, Hogans Hereos, etc.. and these are 40+ year old shows which are BETTER than the ilk on the US5 combined!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
That's why I don't think it makes any sense. The business model behind 3.0 doesn't add up, unless enough customers cut the cord that the TV stations have to promote OTA in order to get more eyeballs watching ads, but I have to believe that they would rather have a small audience on pay tv paying retrans fees.
They want their cake and eat it too...


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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
Yeah, I think a lot of people will do the same, not so much because of paranoia about data use, but because targeted ads are just freaking annoying, and TV ads, especially for larger events give you an interesting cross section of widely marketed products.
So again, I ask if retrans fees is the only thing keeping NBC etc. going then why 3.0??? With 3.0 $0 retrans fees.. and the fees via IPTV can't match what the MSO's are paying or those things are operating at a loss (Which I believe 100% of them are! Till they've hoooked the seuckers...err.. users... yeah.. users... )

Like I said, 3.0 ain't getting no data mining etc. options here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
Part of the problem with Comcast and AT&T is that they own content. Comcast has an incentive to sell TV at a break-even, as some of the cost of that goes back to NBC, which they own. The government should never have let that deal through, as it corrupts the business model behind pay TV and broadband. However, at some point, shareholders will want to look at profitability, not just subscriber numbers. When that shift happens, and Comcast and others give up on the aggressive bundles where they are breaking even or losing money on the TV portion, and focus on high margin broadband, I suspect that several million more cord cutters will come out of the woodwork over a 2-year period of time, adding more fuel to the fire. Smaller cable companies are probably going to stop offering cable tv at some point, and tell people to go to streaming options, or something like AT&T's upcoming streaming service. Some will migrate, while others will take the opportunity to just drop pay tv altogether. With DirecTV raising rates over and over and over again, and having ridiculously high pricing, they have more customers to lose as well.

In the current model, yes owning content creation and delivery is bad and should not have been allowed... if the delivery part is removed from these operations ie: no terrestrial OTA ownership... who cares.. and in the model I am proposing a 3rd party operates it... Arquiva (or something weird like that ) operates in the UK... They own the towers, TX's etc... Another party setups the EPG, channel numbers ie: 101 ABC, etc..

As for CATV's getting out of CATV.. There are several smaller firms that have done just that.. One in MS posts on another site, and they CLICK! Bye bye video... You want that stuff get who ever floats your boat... Its coming.. but right now the MSO's are clining to that buggy whip like their life was dependent on it! They refuse to see the words "DUMB PIPE." It scares them to death.


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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
I'm just amazed at how fast this space is moving, it seems like literally every week there are reports of more cord cutting.
If you would have told me 5 years ago I would be using an antenna and internet for TV, I would have laughed at you so hard....

In probably a year from that point, I had moved to 90% of viewing via data files.. and looking at a $1800/year DBS bill going what am I watching on this thing???? TCM, and the Sirrius stations now and then??? BYE BYE!

Notice: I no longer provide assistance in re OTA antenna and RF related queries.

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post #111 of 163 Old 11-29-2018, 09:20 AM
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post #112 of 163 Old 11-29-2018, 09:37 AM
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The simple fact is stats are made up by who ever makes them up... my drives in the area, still show very very very few antennas...
Either you don't see them or your area just gets poor reception for some reason. But still... 20% of the USA uses an antenna for OTA.




Quote:
Nope. OTA doesn't go anywhere.. refer to UK FreeView... 100's of channels FREE, F-R-E-E!
Well... I'm under the impression that in the UK, you need a license for OTA.




Why are you so bitter? It would nicer to have (read) a discussion without the soapbox.
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post #113 of 163 Old 11-29-2018, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by TampBayOTA View Post
In my area you are NOT going to put an antenna INSIDE with those stupid floppy disks or other junk and get much of anything.
I didn't say they were using floppy disk antennas. You can put a DB8e in your attic if you want to. Some may be on the backside of houses as well. It's not like satellite where is HAS to be outside and be able to see the satellite positions.

Quote:
The simple fact is stats are made up by who ever makes them up... my drives in the area, still show very very very few antennas...
They're not made up. There may be antennas on your street that you can't see, but even if there aren't YOUR STREET is not the entire US.

Quote:
Right now, right this second if the DBS, MSO's and the IPTV's said your choice, Must Carry or BYE BYE. Who has more to loose?????
As much as I want illegal collusion in this particular situation, it's still illegal collusion, and is illegal for a good reason in general.

Quote:
Nope. OTA doesn't go anywhere.. refer to UK FreeView... 100's of channels FREE, F-R-E-E! That transmission model... the RSN's would still be the RSN's... of course if they'd like to offer them over a part of the mux for a fee go right ahead...
Then you need local stations to do the broadcasting, or at least multiple localized feeds from regional O&O stations that feed various transmitters.

Quote:
We don't have to be stuck with it! We need to change it.. its been broken for 20 years, and down right dead for at least the 9 since the full time switch to ATSC....
I wouldn't say it's totally broken, but it sure is messed up. You could de-bloat it if you made everything O&O and just has some localized feeds for different DMAs or something. I'm not sure how you would get there though. If you get rid of retransmission consent, and force everything into must-carry, most of the good programming would leave the networks. I'd actually rather have a rate-regulated retransmission consent that is set by the FCC, and requires a rulemaking proposal type of thing to change. Then, every channel would be the same.

Quote:
ATSC created a lot of a mess, 8VSB for one..... then with clinging to this outdated model we got people trying to get things that can't because we inefficiently using the spectrum that remains. WIth 14-36 really the only viable prime area, with 7-13 not being a bad 2nd choice, thats very little spectrum to shove alot of stuff into! We keep trying to have tech fixes to our Model T. Its time to get a car from the last century at least...
The biggest issue is the transmitter locations. The idea of fully co-locating every market makes a lot of sense, I don't know how you'd force that. It would certainly make OTA easier and push even more people over the edge to cord cutting.

ATSC 3.0 has the potential to solve a lot of problems, but it depends on what business model comes out of it and how it is implemented. I see no business reason for stations to implement SFNs, but if they did, they could blanket virtually everywhere with coverage, even if there are only a couple of channels per market that are shared by multiple broadcasters.

Quote:
Watch Doc Martin, etc... and you will see nice UHF yagis on homes... 500 year old homes and buildings with TV antennas! Here its near sacrilege for that on a 2018 home let alone anything built 200 years ago!
That is true, people are stupid about dishes and antennas on houses in the US. I do see more and more of them though, especially in middle class areas.

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BS! They did it for years before retrans!
But back then, there wasn't the fierce competition driving prices skywards for sports rights.

Quote:
House of Cards, which was quite good as a remake... I've seen the originals from the UK... that was top notch...
The UK one was tough to watch, IMO. It was too dark, too stuffy, and way too British for me. The realness and grit of the American one made it MUCH, MUCH more engaging and compelling.

Quote:
And there sits US5.......BBT...
Pretty much. SNL is fun to skip through and watch the intro, news, and live performance segments. Other than that the Big 4 have basically nothing. PBS is where all the good stuff is.

Quote:
So again, I ask if retrans fees is the only thing keeping NBC etc. going then why 3.0??? With 3.0 $0 retrans fees.. and the fees via IPTV can't match what the MSO's are paying or those things are operating at a loss (Which I believe 100% of them are! Till they've hoooked the seuckers...err.. users... yeah.. users... )
The vMVPDs are operating near a break-even, maybe even a slight loss, and that's not a sustainable model. I thought their re-capture rate would be 50% of cord-cutters, it turns out the data show it's 10%. Not looking good for pay TV in general.

You're right that the business model for 3.0 doesn't really add up, unless it's to offer dozens of subchannels in every market of old re-runs, local content, and syndicated stuff, and just grind out ad revenue from them. That might just be the model.

Quote:
In the current model, yes owning content creation and delivery is bad and should not have been allowed... if the delivery part is removed from these operations ie: no terrestrial OTA ownership... who cares.. and in the model I am proposing a 3rd party operates it... Arquiva (or something weird like that ) operates in the UK... They own the towers, TX's etc... Another party setups the EPG, channel numbers ie: 101 ABC, etc..
I don't care if the Big 4 own their transmitters, but Comcast shouldn't own them and their content.

Quote:
As for CATV's getting out of CATV.. There are several smaller firms that have done just that.. One in MS posts on another site, and they CLICK! Bye bye video... You want that stuff get who ever floats your boat... Its coming.. but right now the MSO's are clining to that buggy whip like their life was dependent on it! They refuse to see the words "DUMB PIPE." It scares them to death.
I think Wall Street is still dumb and is chasing sub numbers, not profit. The HUGE profits are in being a dumb pipe. Why pay for content when you can charge people $75/mo for internet where the content providers PAY YOU? Comcast is able to not only not pay for content for their broadband, but they are running a classic extortion racket with Netflix and other CDNs so that their traffic doesn't suffer from "unfortunate accidents" if they don't pay up.

Quote:
If you would have told me 5 years ago I would be using an antenna and internet for TV, I would have laughed at you so hard....
Same. When "cord cutting" was buying shows one at a time on iTunes, I laughed at the concept. I thought it was just a "right sizing" of the market based on people who didn't really watch much TV in the first place. I was totally wrong. Lots of good content left cable TV, tons of great content went to streaming, there are more options than ever, and the price of cable has gone skywards while the content on cable has tanked, and there's basically nothing left there. Cable fails the value proposition now that there is great content on streaming for much less, HBO and Showtime are untethered from cable, and OTA has made a comeback.

ATSC-8VSB, as flawed as it is, did help cord cutting, as now you can get the exact same digital signal from an antenna that you get on cable, and actually better than satellite in most cases. Crappy analog reception kept a lot of people on cable back in the day.
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post #114 of 163 Old 11-30-2018, 06:01 AM
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No directional antennas here. All are omni-directional. Both locations have a backup generator. Neither of which are UPS configured, i.e., motor-generator-diesel engine. If the power goes out, going to backup power requires manual intervention.
My post was ambiguous - I was talking more about receive antennas being directional and high-gain (as we only have to point at one transmitter). However we do use directional antennas on transmitters too, particularly in coastal areas where we have to mitigate interference we might cause to our neighbours in France, Belgium, Netherlands etc.

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As you know, we do not use COFDM. IMHO, a mistake. No SFN capability around here. Channel allocation is tight. Getting FCC permission to expand the coverage area would not happen.
I thought there were some experiments with SFN 8VSB - though COFDM 2K DVB-T was tricky (our original 90's DVB-T launch standard), COFDM 8K DVB-T is much more flexible (more carriers = lower symbol rate per carrier = longer guard interval options)

Quote:
1156 sites. That seems way too high. The little BBC guide that I got in '72 had nowhere near that number of sites for TV. Maybe I should look at it again. To cover our population would require many times more than that. Then there is the issue of time zones. CBS and The CW do not have a Mountain feed. Local affiliates have to record the East feed and play it out at their time. And then there is Arizona, which doesn't do daylight saving, basically making it 5 time zones to deal with.
There are 50 main transmitter sites, 30 large repeater sites. These carry 6 national DVB-T/T2 muxes (3 PSB, 3 COM). There are then hundreds of much smaller repeater sites, many very low power, that 'fill in the gaps'. These only carry 'Freeview Lite' (i.e. the main 3 PSB muxes - 2 x DVB-T SD, 1 x DVB-T2 HD) but the PSB3 mux is the most useful one to have these days as it gives you the 5 main networks in HD. There are an additional 2 COM DVB-T2 muxes that are carried by most of the main transmitter sites (and carry a mix of HD and SD Commercial and BBC channels) but aren't quite as universal. In London we get 9 Muxes (2 x PSB SD (BBC and ITV/C4/C5), 1 x PSB HD (main BBC, ITV, C4, C5), 3 x COM SD (carrying fully commercial services), 1 x Local SD (carrying our terrible local TV), 2 x COM HD but carrying PSB content)

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For many, I suspect that a single program guide for all the OTAs would be nice.
Yes - without it PVRs are a non-starter really. The same data that feeds the satellite and cable platforms also feeds the OTA platform - though the cable platform has a far poorer dynamic EPG that doesn't do automatic programme start triggering, and dynamic EPG updates when shows are re-scheduled (aka pre-empted) like satellite and OTA does.

Quote:
Getting a nice setup that the U.K. has will never happen here. Tons of money was spent going digital. Trying to get more money to go consolidated... not so much.
Yeah - I guess we saw that an EPG was a requirement almost from the start (it didn't roll out instantly - but happened very quickly, and co-ordinated data sharing was baked into the OTA platform here)

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post #115 of 163 Old 11-30-2018, 06:03 AM
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Well... I'm under the impression that in the UK, you need a license for OTA.
It's not specific to OTA.

You need a TV Licence in the UK if you own a TV, or any other device, that is used to watch OTA, Cable or Satellite live broadcasts, live streamed IPTV, or any BBC video content via catch-up platforms.

This is common in most European countries and also other countries like Japan, and the licence fee income is usually used to fund public service TV and Radio broadcasting. (Public radio is big here) Some countries are now moving to a household tax or an additional income tax fee instead of a specific licence for TV ownership. Some countries fund public TV via general taxation, though this is resisted in many territories, in favour of a model that distances public broadcasters from government control like a long-term licence fee agreement.
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post #116 of 163 Old 11-30-2018, 06:28 AM
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Nope. OTA doesn't go anywhere.. refer to UK FreeView... 100's of channels FREE, F-R-E-E! That transmission model... the RSN's would still be the RSN's... of course if they'd like to offer them over a part of the mux for a fee go right ahead...
Not free - the BBC services on Freeview (including the UK's most watched TV channel - BBC One) are funded by a TV Licence fee that all TV owners (irrespective of OTA, Satellite, IP or Cable delivery) or people who watch on a tablet, laptop etc. - are expected to pay.

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but if the UK can figure this out, then the US should be able to dit, and do 100000000x better.
Well we did kind of invent TV (the BBC launched their TV service in 1936 ) We've been doing it for quite a long time...
Quote:
Watch Doc Martin, etc... and you will see nice UHF yagis on homes... 500 year old homes and buildings with TV antennas! Here its near sacrilege for that on a 2018 home let alone anything built 200 years ago!
Yes - rooftop (or at a minimum attic) installed aerials are just a standard thing here. If you build or buy a house it would be really strange for it not to have a rooftop Freeview aerial. If you live in an apartment building or flat conversion you may get a satellite feed, but this would be in addition to an RF feed from an antenna distribution system for OTA. I've never lived in a house or apartment without a reliable OTA RF feed in the main living room.

Cable TV is far less dominant here - probably because by the 60s and 70s OTA was delivering decent pictures to most households which had roof top aerials (either VHF Band I/III for our legacy 1930s-era 405 B&W or UHD Band IV/V for our 60s-launched 625 B&W then PAL Colour broadcasts)

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Arquiva (or something weird like that ) operates in the UK... They own the towers, TX's etc...
Yes - the BBC owned half the sites and towers, and the ITA/IBA (who handled commercial transmission AND regulation of OTA in the UK) owned the other half of the sites. Co-siting was standard though - with the IBA leasing space on BBC-owned masts and vice versa. The BBC sold off their transmitter operation to Crown Castle, and the IBA split up into NTL (transmission), the ITC (regulation) etc. NTL and Crown Castle through a series of mergers ended up as Arqiva - who now own all the main UK transmitter sites and handle all the main OTA transmission responsibilities in the UK. (The transmitters are all primarily fed via fibre distribution with the two BBC operated muxes - PSB 1 DVB-T and PSB3 DVB-T2 - also having satellite backup feeds to all main transmitter sites)

The actual encoding and multiplexing of the DVB-T/T2 muxes is handled by a mix of operators (the BBC handle their own coding and mux, though this has been outsourced to Siemens/Atos at some points, and may still be) This makes sense because the main network broadcasters handle coding and mux for OTA, Satellite and now IP services, so it makes sense to do this 'under one roof'

Unlike the US our main satellite platform (used for the main Sky pay-TV satellite service here, now owned by Comcast) carries free-to-air versions of the main network channels for reception on both Sky and 'Freesat' receivers - and the main broadcasters handle their own uplinks to this service, so common coding and mux operations really do make sense.

Arqiva own and operate a number of the Freeview commercial muxes themselves

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Another party setups the EPG, channel numbers ie: 101 ABC, etc..
On OTA the EPG data distribution and collation is actually handled by Arqiva I believe. In the UK EPG numbering is regulated by Ofcom (the national broadcast regulator) on all the main platforms, to avoid commercial platform operators abusing their dominance to put their favoured channels on desirable EPG positions.

As a result almost all UK platforms have BBC One SD or HD on Channel 1 (or 101), BBC Two SD or HD on Channel 2 (or 102), ITV SD or HD on Channel 3 (or 103), Channel 4 SD or HD on Channel 4 (or 104) etc.
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post #117 of 163 Old 11-30-2018, 07:41 AM
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refer to UK FreeView... 100's of channels FREE, F-R-E-E!
Wrong!!! More like 134 SD/HD channels, not hundreds. And those only on updated transmission sites. Also, not free. License required.

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post #118 of 163 Old 11-30-2018, 08:08 AM
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I thought there were some experiments with SFN 8VSB - though COFDM 2K DVB-T was tricky (our original 90's DVB-T launch standard), COFDM 8K DVB-T is much more flexible (more carriers = lower symbol rate per carrier = longer guard interval options)
I do not know.
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In London we get 9 Muxes (2 x PSB SD (BBC and ITV/C4/C5), 1 x PSB HD (main BBC, ITV, C4, C5), 3 x COM SD (carrying fully commercial services), 1 x Local SD (carrying our terrible local TV), 2 x COM HD but carrying PSB content)
My friend in the U.K. receives from the Rowridge transmission site. He first indicated to me that he was receiving from Trentnor. I said that was impossible as that is a 400W site. In any event, the discussion with him came about as I wanted him to capture a BBC Four HD upcoming series. Where he lives has a communal antenna. He can't get that mux. It seems that their antenna is either vertical and/or A group. He needs horizontal and T group. I'm guessing that nothing has been done with their antenna since the analog days. The COM7 and COM8 transmissions were just added in early May. He has put forward to the group that the antenna situation be looked into. If OKed, it will take months to get it done.

I wonder how many people in the Rowridge coverage area even know about the changes/additions.

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post #119 of 163 Old 11-30-2018, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by sneals2000 View Post
Yes - without it PVRs are a non-starter really. The same data that feeds the satellite and cable platforms also feeds the OTA platform - though the cable platform has a far poorer dynamic EPG that doesn't do automatic programme start triggering, and dynamic EPG updates when shows are re-scheduled (aka pre-empted) like satellite and OTA does.
Huh? I believe Comcast extends shows when they run over- the control, guide, and VOD is all IP, so what would cable have do with how the guide data is delivered?
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post #120 of 163 Old 11-30-2018, 09:29 AM
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My friend in the U.K. receives from the Rowridge transmission site. He first indicated to me that he was receiving from Trentnor. I said that was impossible as that is a 400W site. In any event, the discussion with him came about as I wanted him to capture a BBC Four HD upcoming series. Where he lives has a communal antenna. He can't get that mux. It seems that their antenna is either vertical and/or A group. He needs horizontal and T group. I'm guessing that nothing has been done with their antenna since the analog days. The COM7 and COM8 transmissions were just added in early May. He has put forward to the group that the antenna situation be looked into. If OKed, it will take months to get it done.

I wonder how many people in the Rowridge coverage area even know about the changes/additions.
The UK is preparing for 700MHz clearance. As part of this the COM7 and COM8 DVB-T2 muxes that are temporary and reduced coverage compared to most other muxes, are moving to new, temporary, SFNs on C55 and C56 - nationwide.

For large areas of the UK, aerial groupings have remained the same since the analogue days, so both analogue and digital transmissions were grouped in the same part of the Band IV or V UHF spectrum, allowing optimised aerials (antennas) to be used. This wasn't the case everywhere - but it was for lots of areas.

With the move to an SFN C55/56 pairing for COM7/8 this is out-of-band for many aerials that until now have received everything. Some people have lost COM7 and COM8 in London as they had Group A aerials, which are optimised for low UHF, and aren't good enough for the lower power COM7/8 at 55/56...

The changes were mentioned on the local news - but it hasn't been a widely communicated change as Freeview TVs will retune themselves automatically (assuming they can receive the moved/new muxes)
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