OTA Help in Crestline Ohio - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 48 Old 08-13-2016, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
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OTA Help in Crestline Ohio

So I am trying to cut the cord and I would like suggestions on what I need. I can mount the antenna where my dish is at about 12 feet off the ground and 40 ft cable run or at the peak of the second floor 24ish feet with about 50 ft cable run. The higher mounting has the best view with nothing directly in the way. If I mount where the dish is, I can use the existing cable but the house blocks all signals to the east and maybe some to the northeast. I can always just run a shorter cable and connect to the old cable from the dish. I'm not 100% set on multi directional but it would be nice. I am 50-60 miles from both Columbus and Cleveland. Columbus would be fine but I want to make sure I get the Browns football games

Thank you for any suggestions
Billy

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...e2cb5256579967

A few antennas I have been reading about:
https://www.antennasdirect.com/store...&productid=217
https://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-.../dp/B00MFXNQBU
https://www.amazon.com/Mohu-Lightwei.../dp/B00AVWKUXE
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post #2 of 48 Old 08-13-2016, 06:48 PM
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Most of your network channels are pretty weak. Of the three antennas you mention only the Clearstream 4 might get you something. I expect you would need a high gain UHF antenna up as high as possible with a good preamp, and to get signals from a second direction a rotator. Look at https://www.antennasdirect.com/store...V-Antenna.html
https://www.antennasdirect.com/store...v-Antenna.html
and similar antennas.
These may or may not get you acceptable results.
Also since we don't know which of your stations are in which market off hand specify the stations' call letters you want to receive.
John
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post #3 of 48 Old 08-13-2016, 09:00 PM
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I agree that you need to put the antenna at the highest point with a clear view. Higher gain antennas will help.

It's doubtful you'll be able to receive WTOL or WTVG because they are adjacent to the very strong WFMD on RF 12. There's too big of a difference in signal strength - 60dB according to TV Fool. Anything more than about 33 dB is a problem. You should concentrate on the other market stations.
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post #4 of 48 Old 08-14-2016, 07:08 AM - Thread Starter
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I was talking with a rep from antenna direct yesterday and he suggested the following equipment:

antennasdirect.com/store/DB8e-Ultra-Long-Range-Outdoor-DTV-Antenna.html
antennasdirect.com/store/JUICE.html

He's suggested this over the one you did because he said the range was better with the distance and signal strength I am try to receive. I don't know much about them. There is only a 5 mile difference for another $50. I would pay if I knew it would be worth it but I just don't know. There are a little difference in the specs but I don't understand some of that.

The stations I am looking for are the major networks.

Cleveland: WEWS-TV, WKYC-DT, WJW-DT, WIOI, WBNX-DT
Columbus: WBNS-DT, WCMH-DT, WTTE-DT, WSYX, WWHO-DT (too far)

I really don't need all of them. I am closer to Columbus but they don't always show the Browns games. They show more Bengals. I just thought it would be nice to get both directions. Most antennas say UHF Channels 14-51. What about the UHF channels like WCMH-DT on channel 4.1? Do I need a different antenna to get this in? The channels all end in either tv, dt, or cd.what does this all stand for?
Would I be better just getting a good single direction antenna and pick a city to stay with.

I really don't need WMFD. Will it cause problems with the other stations? Will I be able to pick up the stations with single digit or negative dB?

Thanks for your responses
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post #5 of 48 Old 08-14-2016, 08:07 AM
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WCMH is UHF on channel 14. You need to look at the "Real Channel" column on TV Fool. That's the actual RF channel. The other is the Virtual Channel, the number from the analog days.

WOIO is on channel 10 so you need a good VHF antenna.

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/produc...3-FDB936ADE29E

The DB8 and Juice preamp are good for UHF.

You'll need to be able to rotate the antennas if you want to pick-up both markets. No single antenna is going to work for stations about 140 degrees apart.

There's no way to really say if you can pick up stations with Noise Margins <10 dB. Lots of people do but there are many "depends" in that. 70 miles is a long way and well beyond what the station is designed to cover. Even if you can receive those stations I can almost guarantee that there will be periods of no reception caused by changing atmospheric conditions over which you have no control.
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post #6 of 48 Old 08-14-2016, 09:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
WCMH is UHF on channel 14. You need to look at the "Real Channel" column on TV Fool. That's the actual RF channel. The other is the Virtual Channel, the number from the analog days.

WOIO is on channel 10 so you need a good VHF antenna.

The DB8 and Juice preamp are good for UHF.

You'll need to be able to rotate the antennas if you want to pick-up both markets. No single antenna is going to work for stations about 140 degrees apart.

There's no way to really say if you can pick up stations with Noise Margins <10 dB. Lots of people do but there are many "depends" in that. 70 miles is a long way and well beyond what the station is designed to cover. Even if you can receive those stations I can almost guarantee that there will be periods of no reception caused by changing atmospheric conditions over which you have no control.
Would I need a vhf for a for a station like WJW?

The DB8e has where you can point 2 one way while pointing the other 2 another direction. It also has a max gain of 17.4 compared to 15.8 on the DB8. Would this work to get signals from two different directions? Maybe I should just get a good uni directional antenna and point it to Columbus since those seems to be the closest ones. 57 & 59 miles away. All I have with dish is Columbus channels.
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post #7 of 48 Old 08-14-2016, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by WmTasker View Post
Would I need a vhf for a for a station like WJW?

The DB8e has where you can point 2 one way while pointing the other 2 another direction. It also has a max gain of 17.4 compared to 15.8 on the DB8. Would this work to get signals from two different directions? Maybe I should just get a good uni directional antenna and point it to Columbus since those seems to be the closest ones. 57 & 59 miles away. All I have with dish is Columbus channels.

Any station with a real channel of 7-13 needs a VHF antenna. WJW is on channel 8.

Pointing the 2 halves of the DB8e in different directions is not intended for fringe area reception. You need to point the entire antenna at the stations you want to receive. If a rotor is not an option then you need two sets of antennas with an A/B switch.
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post #8 of 48 Old 08-14-2016, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
Any station with a real channel of 7-13 needs a VHF antenna. WJW is on channel 8.

Pointing the 2 halves of the DB8e in different directions is not intended for fringe area reception. You need to point the entire antenna at the stations you want to receive. If a rotor is not an option then you need two sets of antennas with an A/B switch.
Thanks. I think I'm gonna just stick with one direction for right now. It looks like Columbus has all stations on UHF. That website you linked to has some great prices. Any suggestion for a good UHF antenna from there? The 30-2430 looks like it might work with the Titan 2 mast mount preamp. Would I have to run a seperatly coaxial cable to power the preamp? What should I look for in a good quality cable?
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post #9 of 48 Old 08-14-2016, 10:13 AM - Thread Starter
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How do I go about grounding the antenna? I really don't want lighting to fry my tv's.
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post #10 of 48 Old 08-14-2016, 10:24 AM
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There is a grounding thread here:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdt...oax-cable.html

but here is the short version:

If the antenna is outside, the coax shield should be grounded with a grounding block that is connected to the house electrical system ground with 10 gauge copper wire for electrical safety and to reject interference. For further compliance with the electrical code (NEC), the mast should also be grounded in a similar manner to drain any buildup of static charge, but the system will not survive a direct strike.


If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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www.megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/dttpoorman.html

Last edited by rabbit73; 08-14-2016 at 11:36 AM.
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post #11 of 48 Old 08-14-2016, 11:00 AM
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I think I'm gonna just stick with one direction for right now. It looks like Columbus has all stations on UHF.
OK, this is what I suggest:
DB8E > UVSJ > preamp > coax > grounding block > power inserter > TV


It is important to ground the coax with a grounding block to reject the interference from strong unwanted signals.

The preamp can be the Antennas Direct Juice or the Channel Master 7778.

It is possible to buy cheaper 8-bay UHF antennas, but I don't think they are built as well and Antennas Direct stands behind their products better than most manufacturers. (No, I don't benefit $ from that suggestion.)

The UVSJ (high and common ports) is to keep the strong WMFD CH 12 signal and the very strong WYKL-FM signal (only one mile away) out of your preamp.
http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/8e40c72ab6/Radar-FM.png

Quote:
Would I have to run a separate coaxial cable to power the preamp? What should I look for in a good quality cable?
No, the power inserter for the preamp that is inside is designed to allow the same coax to carry the DC power up to the preamp and to carry the signals down to the TV.

This is what can happen if you tighten the coax connector too hard on the balun of a cheaper antenna:
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If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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www.megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/dttpoorman.html

Last edited by rabbit73; 08-14-2016 at 11:11 AM.
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post #12 of 48 Old 08-14-2016, 11:17 AM
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If you want to try for some UHF channels from Cleveland, you will need a second high gain UHF antenna with a preamp. It will also need a UVSJ to keep WMFD CH 12 and WYKL-FM out. The only way you can receive any VHF channels from Cleveland is to buy a custom bandstop filter to attenuate WMFD.

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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www.megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/dttpoorman.html
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post #13 of 48 Old 08-14-2016, 11:20 AM
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Your map:

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If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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www.megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/dttpoorman.html

Last edited by rabbit73; 08-14-2016 at 11:35 AM.
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post #14 of 48 Old 08-14-2016, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WmTasker View Post
Thanks. I think I'm gonna just stick with one direction for right now. It looks like Columbus has all stations on UHF. That website you linked to has some great prices. Any suggestion for a good UHF antenna from there? The 30-2430 looks like it might work with the Titan 2 mast mount preamp. Would I have to run a seperatly coaxial cable to power the preamp? What should I look for in a good quality cable?
With that extremely strong channel 12 you have I would not use a preamp on VHF unless you add a notch filter for it. Something is likely to overload.

From Stellar Labs

DB8e Clone

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/produc...-2430-/30-2430

91XG Clone

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/produc...-2370-/30-2370

I'm not aware of any poor quality RG6 or indoor only RG6. Don't bother with Quad Shield. It's not going to do anything unless you have a transmitter next door.... literally.
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post #15 of 48 Old 08-14-2016, 03:58 PM - Thread Starter
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I have about 100 feet of this cable. Its old and I don't know if I would loose signal on it.

https://www.anixter.com/en_us/produc...-Cable/p/B9114
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post #16 of 48 Old 08-15-2016, 07:53 AM
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I have about 100 feet of this cable. Its old and I don't know if I would loose signal on it.

https://www.anixter.com/en_us/produc...-Cable/p/B9114

My Belden catalog shows that cable has about 1 dB more loss at 700 MHz (Ch51) per 100' than most of the cable you get today. That's no big deal and no issue at all if you use a preamp.
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post #17 of 48 Old 08-15-2016, 07:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you
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post #18 of 48 Old 08-17-2016, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Cavaveras ... Does you catalog talk about the diameter of the cable. I have a compression connector and tool. When I put on the connector with the tool then I can easily just pull the connector off. I didn't know if the cable I had was a smaller diameter than newer RG6 cables. What are the best connectors to use??
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post #19 of 48 Old 08-17-2016, 03:56 PM - Thread Starter
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My fittings are black. I noticed that there are blue for RG59 and purple for RG6Q. What's the difference?
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post #20 of 48 Old 08-17-2016, 05:56 PM
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The difference between purple and blue as a difference in wavelength is about 50 nm.
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post #21 of 48 Old 08-17-2016, 07:44 PM
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Cavaveras ... Does you catalog talk about the diameter of the cable. I have a compression connector and tool. When I put on the connector with the tool then I can easily just pull the connector off. I didn't know if the cable I had was a smaller diameter than newer RG6 cables. What are the best connectors to use??

Belden 9114 is OD .275" which seems to be a standard size. RG6Q is quad shield which is larger and RG59 is mostly around .240". Any plain RG6 connector should be okay.
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post #22 of 48 Old 08-19-2016, 11:33 AM
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Fol. Catalog Page shows Belden 9114 [and most others] have O.D. = 0.270 inches, whereas Belden 1189A [Quad Shield] has O.D. = 0.298 inches.
http://www.prioritywire.com/specs/c-1.pdf

You MUST CHECK SPECS of both the COAX and the Connectors.....all "RG-6" is NOT THE SAME and each Connector Mfr can be a little bit different....
Yup, if it's loose, you probably have "Quad Shield" type Connectors on "Standard" O.D. Coax.

BTW: A Coax that is FULLY COMPLIANT with RG-6 MIL-SPEC, is MUCH THICKER, with RUGGED, HIGH LOSS PVC (vice Foam) Insulation...so AVOID THEM:
http://www.awcwire.com/productspec.a...-coaxial-cable

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post #23 of 48 Old 08-19-2016, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post
Fol. Catalog Page shows Belden 9114 [and most others] have O.D. = 0.270 inches, whereas Belden 1189A [Quad Shield] has O.D. = 0.298 inches.
http://www.prioritywire.com/specs/c-1.pdf

Interesting. Apparently Belden had made some changes over the years without changing the part numbers. My 1985 Belden Wire & Cable catalog shows 9114 as .275 OD and 78% velocity factor while your newer link shows it as .270 OD and 82% velocity factor. My catalog shows the loss a 6.9 dB at 900 MHz and 5.0 dB at 500 MHz. I couldn't find any loss numbers for the newer cable but I bet it's a bit lower.
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post #24 of 48 Old 08-22-2016, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Can anyone tell me how far from the Antenna combiner can I place the amplifier?
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post #25 of 48 Old 08-22-2016, 05:32 PM
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Can anyone tell me how far from the Antenna combiner can I place the amplifier?

All depends on how much you're willing to degrade the noise figure. The farther from the antenna the preamp the higher the system noise figure. Closer is better.
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post #26 of 48 Old 08-22-2016, 06:58 PM - Thread Starter
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All depends on how much you're willing to degrade the noise figure. The farther from the antenna the preamp the higher the system noise figure. Closer is better.
Thanks. I will just mount it on the mast. How far away can the power supply be placed inline?
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post #27 of 48 Old 08-22-2016, 07:41 PM
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Thanks. I will just mount it on the mast. How far away can the power supply be placed inline?

It's normally placed in the house near the TV but it's not critical.
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post #28 of 48 Old 09-14-2016, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
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8VSB/ATSC ??? Please help

I installed my antenna yesterday. After a little playing around, I was able to get 20 stations. Some signals are good and some come and go. My bed room is just on the other side of the wall from where the living room tv is. So I put a splitter on the cable and ran a cable to my bed room tv. From the splitter there are 2 identical 6 foot cables going to the living room and bedroom tv's. Later that night when I turned on the bedroom tv and searched for stations, it found 35 stations. I tried to relearn stations in the living room and still 20 stations. The pictures and signal strength are so much better on the bedroom tv.

Living room tv: http://www.cnet.com/products/sony-br...ogle-tv/specs/

Bedroom tv: http://www.cnet.com/products/insigni...-led-tv/specs/

Both tv's are QAM and ATSC but the bedroom tv also has 8VSB listed for digital tuner.

Can someone help explain this all to me? Besides buying a new tv, is there something I can do to get the better quality in the living room?

Information about my setup https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdt...line-ohio.html
Thanks

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post #29 of 48 Old 09-14-2016, 11:13 AM
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QAM is digtal cable modulation. 8VSB is digital OTA modulation.
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post #30 of 48 Old 09-14-2016, 11:26 AM - Thread Starter
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QAM is digtal cable modulation. 8VSB is digital OTA modulation.
Is 8VSB better than ATSC?
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