Troutman, NC: Antenna suggestions..receiving 62 channels with a "pie plate" antenna! - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 45 Old 12-07-2016, 11:26 AM
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In a simple CIRCULAR LOOP Antenna, the Diameter determines the Center of the Operating Band....just as the Length of a Dipole determines the Center of it's Operating Band:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/uhfcircular

So in a TAPERED LOOP Antenna, the AVERAGE Diameter determines the Center of the Operating Band...and the different INNER/OUTER Diameters allow it to be "Stagger-Tuned" [like my Free-Form FF4/FF6 Antennas with different Whisker Lengths, et. al.], widening the Good Gain and SWR Frequency Range (BANDWIDTH) of the Antenna, as well as ensuring that the wide BEAMWIDTH normally found at the low end of the Band is maintained over a wider Frequency Range.

================================================== ==
STAGGER-TUNING:

For those unfamiliar [and perhaps not old enough to remember], Stagger Tuning was a technique back in the TUBE ERA for Tuning a Multi-Stage IF Amplifier Strip so that the Input and Output Coils in each of the two (or three) IF Transformers could be slightly Tweaked (one UP and one DOWN in Frequency) so that the result was fairly FLAT over the desired IF Bandwidth, instead of PEAKING in the middle [which yielded constant roll-off in AM Freq Response]. I remember doing this back one summer between College Semesters [about 1967] when I rebuilt my old Heathkit AR-3 All-Band Receiver [9th Birthday Gift from my Dad] into a WIDE-BAND [i.e. 12 kHz vice 7 kHz] Tuner for the AM Band, incl adding a Tuned RF Stage, some sort of "improved" AM Signal Detector and Wood Case matching my DIY 12-in Speaker Cabinets. With the help of some second hand Test Equipment, I carefully Aligned the Frequency Response. Certainly not Hi-Fi like my [then new] Heathkit AJ-14 FM Stereo Tuner (whose 13.4 VDC Power Supply was modified to be swapped into my car, using the car's Battery....but FM only worked well in MONO)....but from my 3rd Floor Dorm Room high on top of SDSU's Mesa I could finally hear how BAD the AM Transmissions were to begin with:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staggered_tuning
http://www.heathkit-museum.com/ham/hvmar-3.shtml [Heathkit AR-3 All-Band AM Tuner....ALL Tubes...which I hear have made a come back]
http://www.w6ze.org/Heathkit/Heathkit_063_AJ14.pdf [Heathkit AJ-14 FM Stereo Tuner...first ALL Solid State]
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post #32 of 45 Old 12-10-2016, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, I made one to the exact dimensions you provided(8.5625 outer/6.25 inner/0.5" thick at the bottom with a 0.1875" feedpoint gap) and I only received a best of 48 channels. Compared to the 62 channels I receive with the first hack job I did. I wonder why?
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post #33 of 45 Old 12-10-2016, 02:00 PM
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Which REAL RF Channels did you lose??? Perhaps PBS sub-channels on Hi-VHF Ch11???? Mostly Lower UHF or Upper UHF????

And could you post a photo showing details for Dual Tapered Loop Antenna????
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post #34 of 45 Old 12-11-2016, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
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@holl_ands 11, 33, and 51 that I can tell so far. Hard to remember the others, since I didn't write it down or anything...

I didn't make the dual, just a single for now to compare the two.

I have attached a picture of it and the original...they feedpoint gap may be 1/4 inch instead of 3/16...outside of that, I think it's almost exact.

Unfortunately, I didn't have any smaller bolts to use lol...
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post #35 of 45 Old 12-11-2016, 09:28 AM - Thread Starter
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If I cant get the precisely constructed one to perform better, there's no need to make a dual of it of...I dont reckon. I'll make another crappy one, like the first one, and make a dual out of it. Hard to dispute actual results lol
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post #36 of 45 Old 12-11-2016, 11:43 AM
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Your second loop doesn't have as much taper as the first loop; it isn't as wide at the top as compared to the bottom. The attachment shows a drawing from the original patent application, which might not be exactly how Antennas Direct makes their loop now.

Keep in mind that OTA signals constantly change in strength from day to day and hour to hour. I have measured changes in signal strength of over 10 dB in 30 minutes.

I'm glad to hear that a simple loop is getting you a lot of channels, but I think you are expecting too much with your signals in different directions. Consistent reception requires a directional antenna aimed directly at the transmitter.

You can make a template from my image with a copying machine that can change size in percent to make the outer circle 220 mm.

WTVI, real channel 11 requires a VHF-High antenna for more reliable reception.
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post #37 of 45 Old 12-11-2016, 03:39 PM
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Troutman, NC is in Iredell County. You should get most major channels from Charlotte and Greensboro. You may be able to find a sweet spot, or you may need 2 separate UHF antennas such as Clearstream 2 or DB4. Or your homemade versions. Connect with a reverse splitter or an A/B switch. And perhaps a preamp may help, depending upon signal strength and cable length. As for WTVI, as mentioned, a separate VHF antenna should be used, and basic rabbit ears may be inadequate as it is lower power due to WTVD RF11 in Raleigh-Durham which is more full power. Also I believe WSOC/WAXN may have some translators up there for Channel 9 or 64.
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post #38 of 45 Old 12-11-2016, 04:13 PM
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You may also want to consider trying a Walltenna. They are made in Greensboro, NC and reportedly may be omnidirectional. And they are lower priced than the Mohu and some suggest may perform better. They use a basic 2 bay bowtie design with copper elements in the sleek and thin form factor.
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post #39 of 45 Old 12-12-2016, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerSC View Post
As for WTVI, as mentioned, a separate VHF antenna should be used, and basic rabbit ears may be inadequate as it is lower power due to WTVD RF11 in Raleigh-Durham which is more full power. Also I believe WSOC/WAXN may have some translators up there for Channel 9 or 64.
I get 11 just fine with the hack-job antenna...
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post #40 of 45 Old 12-12-2016, 03:12 PM
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FYI: EVAL Results for DIY C2 Klone (NO Reflector, Conventional vice PCB Balun):

Code:
Input File: UHF_Dual-Tapered-Loop_NoRefl.nec
Freq sweeps: [(88, 2, 11), (174, 6, 8), (470, 12, 29)
  
         - Gain (dBi) -                - Ratios -   - Impedance -
   Freq    Raw    Net   SWR    BeamW   F/R    F/B    Real    Imag  AGT  corr
============================================================================

FM BAND:
   88.0  -5.71 -36.89 5256.67  89.7   0.00   0.00    0.06  100.81 1.08  0.35
   90.0  -5.21 -36.29 5127.97  89.7   0.00   0.00    0.07  103.45 1.08  0.35
   92.0  -4.73 -35.69 4997.39  89.7   0.00   0.00    0.07  106.12 1.08  0.35
   94.0  -4.20 -35.05 4864.83  89.7   0.00   0.00    0.07  108.82 1.07  0.29
   96.0  -3.75 -34.48 4730.29  89.7   0.00   0.00    0.07  111.55 1.07  0.29
   98.0  -3.32 -33.92 4593.78  89.7   0.00   0.00    0.07  114.31 1.07  0.29
  100.0  -2.90 -33.37 4455.39  89.6   0.00   0.00    0.08  117.09 1.07  0.29
  102.0  -2.46 -32.79 4315.26  89.7   0.00   0.00    0.08  119.92 1.06  0.25
  104.0  -2.08 -32.26 4173.59  89.7   0.00   0.00    0.08  122.77 1.06  0.25
  106.0  -1.71 -31.74 4030.63  89.7   0.00   0.00    0.09  125.66 1.06  0.25
  108.0  -1.36 -31.24 3886.67  89.7   0.00   0.00    0.09  128.58 1.06  0.25

Hi-VHF BAND:
  174.0   4.07 -17.62 588.76  89.1   0.00   0.00    0.89  257.85 1.02  0.08
  180.0   4.19 -16.64 482.17  89.1   0.00   0.00    1.14  274.81 1.02  0.08
  186.0   4.29 -15.68 395.36  89.0   0.00   0.00    1.48  293.25 1.02  0.08
  192.0   4.38 -14.74 324.81  88.9   0.00   0.00    1.93  313.40 1.02  0.08
  198.0   4.46 -13.83 267.51  88.9   0.00   0.00    2.52  335.56 1.01  0.06
  204.0   4.52 -12.94 220.98  88.9   0.00   0.00    3.31  360.12 1.01  0.06
  210.0   4.57 -12.09 183.14  88.7   0.00   0.00    4.37  387.53 1.01  0.06
  216.0   4.61 -11.26 152.32  88.6   0.00   0.00    5.80  418.39 1.01  0.06
  

UHF BAND:
 470.0   5.54   4.18   3.15  83.7   0.00   0.00  117.23 -135.26 1.00  0.00
 482.0   5.60   4.37   2.97  83.4   0.00   0.00  118.48 -116.39 1.00  0.00
 494.0   5.65   4.54   2.81  83.2   0.00   0.00  120.47  -99.33 1.00  0.00
 506.0   5.71   4.70   2.66  82.9   0.00   0.00  123.13  -83.78 1.00  0.00
 518.0   5.77   4.86   2.53  82.5   0.00   0.00  126.41  -69.50 1.00  0.00
 530.0   5.84   5.03   2.40  82.1   0.00   0.00  130.30  -56.33 1.00 -0.00
 542.0   5.90   5.18   2.29  81.7   0.00   0.00  134.78  -44.13 1.00 -0.00
 554.0   5.96   5.32   2.18  81.5   0.00   0.00  139.85  -32.80 1.00 -0.00
 566.0   6.03   5.46   2.08  81.1   0.00   0.00  145.52  -22.28 1.00 -0.00
 578.0   6.10   5.60   1.98  80.7   0.00   0.00  151.81  -12.53 1.00 -0.00
 590.0   6.17   5.74   1.89  80.4   0.00   0.00  158.73   -3.51 1.00 -0.00
 602.0   6.25   5.87   1.80  80.0   0.00   0.00  166.30    4.75 1.00 -0.01
 614.0   6.32   6.00   1.72  79.6   0.00   0.00  174.56   12.23 1.00 -0.01
 626.0   6.39   6.12   1.65  79.1   0.00   0.00  183.52   18.89 1.00 -0.01
 638.0   6.46   6.24   1.57  78.7   0.00   0.00  193.18   24.66 1.00 -0.01
 650.0   6.53   6.35   1.50  78.3   0.00   0.00  203.56   29.42 1.00 -0.01
 662.0   6.61   6.47   1.43  77.8   0.00   0.00  214.64   33.06 1.00 -0.01
 674.0   6.68   6.58   1.37  77.4   0.00   0.00  226.37   35.43 1.00 -0.01
 686.0   6.75   6.67   1.30  77.0   0.00   0.00  238.65   36.35 1.00 -0.01
 698.0   6.83   6.78   1.24  76.4   0.00   0.00  251.42   35.65 1.00 -0.01
  

BEYOND UHF BAND:
 710.0   6.90   6.87   1.19  76.1   0.00   0.00  264.42   33.12 1.00 -0.01
 722.0   6.97   6.95   1.13  75.6   0.00   0.00  277.40   28.59 1.00 -0.01
 734.0   7.04   7.03   1.08  75.2   0.00   0.00  290.04   21.90 1.00 -0.01
 746.0   7.12   7.11   1.04  74.6   0.00   0.00  301.89   12.99 1.00 -0.02
 758.0   7.19   7.18   1.04  74.1   0.00   0.00  312.47    1.88 1.00 -0.02
 770.0   7.25   7.24   1.08  73.7   0.00   0.00  321.24  -11.27 1.00 -0.02
 782.0   7.31   7.29   1.13  73.2   0.00   0.00  327.67  -26.08 1.00 -0.02
 794.0   7.36   7.33   1.18  72.7   0.00   0.00  331.34  -42.05 1.00 -0.02
 806.0   7.40   7.35   1.23  72.2   0.00   0.00  331.95  -58.51 1.00 -0.02

FYI: EVAL Results for DIY C1 Klone (NO Reflector, Conventional Balun)....presuming SAME Narrow Feedpoint as C2: [Note Hi-VHF Gain is MUCH worse than C2]

Code:
Input file : UHF_C1_Tapered-Loop_NoRefl.nec
Freq sweeps: [(88, 2, 11), (174, 6, 8), (470, 12, 29)

         - Gain (dBi) -                - Ratios -   - Impedance -
   Freq    Raw    Net   SWR    BeamW   F/R    F/B    Real    Imag  AGT  corr
============================================================================

FM BAND:
   88.0 -10.40 -35.77 1375.52  89.7   0.00   0.00    0.29  170.25 1.14  0.59
   90.0 -10.09 -35.19 1292.68  89.7   0.00   0.00    0.31  175.03 1.14  0.59
   92.0  -9.79 -34.62 1214.68  89.9   0.00   0.00    0.34  179.90 1.14  0.59
   94.0  -9.49 -34.06 1141.34  89.9   0.00   0.00    0.36  184.84 1.14  0.58
   96.0  -9.21 -33.51 1072.44  89.7   0.00   0.00    0.39  189.85 1.14  0.58
   98.0  -8.94 -32.97 1007.76  89.7   0.00   0.00    0.42  194.96 1.14  0.58
  100.0  -8.69 -32.45  947.11  89.7   0.00   0.00    0.46  200.15 1.14  0.58
  102.0  -8.44 -31.93  890.26  89.7   0.00   0.00    0.49  205.43 1.14  0.58
  104.0  -8.20 -31.42  837.00  89.7   0.00   0.00    0.54  210.81 1.14  0.58
  106.0  -7.97 -30.92  787.14  89.6   0.00   0.00    0.58  216.28 1.14  0.58
  108.0  -7.75 -30.44  740.47  89.6   0.00   0.00    0.63  221.86 1.14  0.58

Hi-VHF BAND:
  174.0  -3.07 -18.18 127.68  89.1   0.00   0.00    9.32  516.74 1.14  0.56
  180.0  -2.80 -17.34 111.71  89.2   0.00   0.00   12.20  564.62 1.14  0.56
  186.0  -2.53 -16.52  98.13  89.0   0.00   0.00   16.11  619.82 1.14  0.56
  192.0  -2.28 -15.73  86.53  89.0   0.00   0.00   21.52  684.32 1.14  0.56
  198.0  -2.03 -14.97  76.57  88.9   0.00   0.00   29.15  760.87 1.14  0.55
  204.0  -1.81 -14.24  68.01  88.9   0.00   0.00   40.17  853.36 1.14  0.55
  210.0  -1.59 -13.54  60.61  88.7   0.00   0.00   56.60  967.57 1.14  0.55
  216.0  -1.38 -12.86  54.19  88.7   0.00   0.00   82.04 1112.36 1.14  0.55

UHF BAND:
  470.0   2.92   1.60  3.09  83.7   0.00   0.00  119.39 -134.79 1.12  0.48
  482.0   3.02   1.88  2.85  83.4   0.00   0.00  123.76 -116.67 1.12  0.48
  494.0   3.12   2.14  2.64  83.0   0.00   0.00  128.86  -99.86 1.12  0.48
  506.0   3.21   2.37  2.44  82.8   0.00   0.00  134.69  -84.23 1.12  0.48
  518.0   3.32   2.61  2.27  82.4   0.00   0.00  141.28  -69.67 1.11  0.47
  530.0   3.41   2.82  2.11  82.1   0.00   0.00  148.66  -56.13 1.11  0.47
  542.0   3.50   3.01  1.97  81.7   0.00   0.00  156.84  -43.57 1.11  0.47
  554.0   3.59   3.19  1.84  81.3   0.00   0.00  165.87  -32.00 1.11  0.47
  566.0   3.67   3.36  1.72  81.1   0.00   0.00  175.77  -21.44 1.11  0.47
  578.0   3.76   3.52  1.61  80.6   0.00   0.00  186.59  -11.96 1.11  0.47
  590.0   3.84   3.66  1.51  80.2   0.00   0.00  198.33   -3.67 1.11  0.47
  602.0   3.92   3.79  1.42  79.9   0.00   0.00  211.00    3.31 1.11  0.47
  614.0   4.01   3.92  1.34  79.5   0.00   0.00  224.57    8.80 1.11  0.46
  626.0   4.08   4.02  1.26  79.1   0.00   0.00  238.98   12.60 1.11  0.46
  638.0   4.16   4.13  1.19  78.5   0.00   0.00  254.11   14.48 1.11  0.46
  650.0   4.23   4.21  1.12  78.0   0.00   0.00  269.75   14.20 1.11  0.46
  662.0   4.29   4.29  1.06  77.6   0.00   0.00  285.65   11.50 1.11  0.46
  674.0   4.35   4.35  1.02  77.1   0.00   0.00  301.40    6.17 1.11  0.46
  686.0   4.41   4.41  1.06  76.7   0.00   0.00  316.50   -1.94 1.11  0.46
  698.0   4.46   4.45  1.11  76.2   0.00   0.00  330.44  -12.86 1.11  0.46

BEYOND UHF BAND:
  710.0   4.51   4.48  1.17  75.8   0.00   0.00  342.49  -26.47 1.11  0.45
  722.0   4.55   4.50  1.23  75.2   0.00   0.00  352.01  -42.44 1.11  0.45
  734.0   4.58   4.51  1.29  74.6   0.00   0.00  358.40  -60.21 1.11  0.45
  746.0   4.60   4.50  1.35  74.1   0.00   0.00  361.25  -79.04 1.11  0.45
  758.0   4.60   4.47  1.42  73.7   0.00   0.00  360.33  -98.05 1.11  0.45
  770.0   4.60   4.43  1.48  73.2   0.00   0.00  355.73 -116.31 1.11  0.45
  782.0   4.58   4.37  1.54  72.7   0.00   0.00  347.81 -132.97 1.11  0.45
  794.0   4.55   4.31  1.61  72.2   0.00   0.00  337.17 -147.35 1.11  0.45

Last edited by holl_ands; 12-13-2016 at 07:59 AM.
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post #41 of 45 Old 12-13-2016, 06:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Right, I have two singles. Why does the one built the the correct specifications receive significantly less channels?
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post #42 of 45 Old 12-13-2016, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lknhomeaudio View Post
Right, I have two singles. Why does the one built the the correct specifications receive significantly less channels?
After reviewing this thread it's not clear to me where you're mounting the antenna for your tests.

If you're dealing with indoor antennas you're dealing with multipath. Different antennas have different patterns so they respond to reflections inside the house differently. Stations can come and go just by moving the antenna around a little. Small differences in gain are completely overshadowed by multipath. This is why indoor antennas of any kind are discouraged. User reports on indoor antennas are mostly irrelevant because every location in every building is unique. The safest bet is an outdoor antenna mounted as in the clear as possible.

Even you have the antenna outdoors you could still have multipath issues if the antenna is not mounted high enough to clear buildings and trees.

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post #43 of 45 Old 12-13-2016, 08:58 AM - Thread Starter
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@Calaveras it's outside...15 feet up
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post #44 of 45 Old 12-13-2016, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lknhomeaudio View Post
@Calaveras it's outside...15 feet up
And that clears all the close by buildings and trees?
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post #45 of 45 Old 12-13-2016, 12:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Buildings, pretty much. Trees...they are to my direct west about 50 feet away and 50 feet high. I don't think I'm having any problems with westward channels though.. definitely not many coming from that way.
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