AVS Official Topic: The FCC and Television Spectrum Repack - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 124Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #61 of 478 Old 04-28-2017, 08:13 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
chitchatjf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Lawrence MA
Posts: 3,479
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 91 Post(s)
Liked: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
WNBC isn't getting a new channel. The frequency was sold in the auction. WNBC's programming will move to WNJU in a channel-sharing arrangement. Scroll back a page or two for the discussion if you like. Basically, WNJU will have NBC and Telemundo and possibly TeleXitos and Cozi all on the one channel.
.
They already do this in Boston
chitchatjf is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #62 of 478 Old 04-28-2017, 04:02 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SFischer1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Sunnyvale, CA 94087
Posts: 3,958
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1018 Post(s)
Liked: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
...

I speculated earlier that it wouldn't surprise me to see them change WNJU's call letters to WNBC. You just don't dump flagship call letters in market number one.
The call letters displayed on viewers HDTV's would not change for WNBC as the Virtual Channel will remain the same.

There are some people (Like me) that have "some" equipment that displays the RF channel.

I just displayed KNTV 11.3 on my last years Sony and 11.3 has the call letters KNTV but is 720p HD 16:9 on RF channel 49.5 where 11.1 KNTV is 1080i HD 16:9 on RF channel 12.3. The RF channel is not displayed but I can dig into the setup screens to find the RF channel, but it is hard and most viewers never will do unless someone in the know tells them how.

KNTV 11.3 will have a new RF channel 19.5 after the repack.

Code:
11.1 12.3 13.3 KNTV NBC San Jose Mt. San Bruno 103.1 1236  H - M - nbcbayarea.com 
  
11.2 12.4 13.4   Cozi-TV   Mt. San Bruno       
  
11.3 49.5 19.5   KNTV-NBC   Mt. Allison
SHF
SFischer1 is offline  
post #63 of 478 Old 04-28-2017, 04:46 PM
Super Moderator
 
DrDon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Metro Detroit, Tampa Bay
Posts: 17,207
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2337 Post(s)
Liked: 4448
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
The call letters displayed on viewers HDTV's would not change for WNBC as the Virtual Channel will remain the same.
That's true. But if they don't keep those, someone else will snatch them up. The next "actual" WNBC could very well be in Detroit or DC. And I'm not sure what the legal ID rule is involving subchannels, but it's confusing if, at the top of the hour, you see "WNJU, New York" on the screen. Legal ID and virtual ID are two different things.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
DrDon is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #64 of 478 Old 04-28-2017, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Trip in VA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Alexandria, VA, US
Posts: 16,865
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1661 Post(s)
Liked: 703
If it's done as a channel share under the FCC's rules, then it will keep its call sign and license separately on the WNJU spectrum.

- Trip
JHBrandt likes this.

N4MJC

Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

RabbitEars

"Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand..." - Rush "Witch Hunt"

Trip in VA is offline  
post #65 of 478 Old 04-28-2017, 05:49 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SFischer1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Sunnyvale, CA 94087
Posts: 3,958
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1018 Post(s)
Liked: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
That's true. But if they don't keep those, someone else will snatch them up. The next "actual" WNBC could very well be in Detroit or DC. And I'm not sure what the legal ID rule is involving subchannels, but it's confusing if, at the top of the hour, you see "WNJU, New York" on the screen. Legal ID and virtual ID are two different things.
I have not seen a reference to the FCC's request for comments as to if it should ignore sub-channels, manage them or take any other action. For legal ID (Which I never have seen for years) is that still in the law?

Locally some of the stations do not even include their call letters in what viewers normally see, KAXT VC 1 (Not a typo, the FCC said OK), KKPX VC 65, KMMC VC 40, KCNS VC 38, KRON VC 4 (Larry needs to check).

Other stations call letters appear often on other's sub-channel's PSIP.

For a complete list see Larry's sig line for results from his antenna farm and his great list of stations (Both VC and RF sorts)

The list for my main antenna is attached, sorry I never completed the AWK program for ascending order.

SHF
Attached Files
File Type: zip 10406FE2_T1-4_28_2017.zip (1.9 KB, 39 views)
SFischer1 is offline  
post #66 of 478 Old 04-28-2017, 11:48 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SFischer1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Sunnyvale, CA 94087
Posts: 3,958
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1018 Post(s)
Liked: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
...
For legal ID (Which I never have seen for years) is that still in the law?
...

SHF
My memory of TSID has returned. I think that number in the ATSC stream replaces the need for station ID on the hour.

The TSID is assigned to each station and is unique.

https://www.rabbitears.info/oddsande...p?request=tsid

SHF
SFischer1 is offline  
post #67 of 478 Old 04-29-2017, 08:08 AM
Super Moderator
 
DrDon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Metro Detroit, Tampa Bay
Posts: 17,207
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2337 Post(s)
Liked: 4448
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
My memory of TSID has returned. I think that number in the ATSC stream replaces the need for station ID on the hour.
I do not believe so. The legal ID still has to be visually or aurally done near the top of every hour. The transmitter's call sign and city of license have to be identified on every stream broadcast:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/73.1201

You made me tune around and watch a lot of subchannels I don't normally watch . Every single one ran a legal ID right at the top of the hour, usually superimposed on the lower part of the screen, which fits with the FCC regs for digital television. I thought I found one that didn't, and just as I started to tune away, it appeared. Timer is apparently set to TOH + 1:00. Same thing happened an hour later (I have no life).

Even watching the "network simulcast" DirecTV channel during golf, you'll see KCBS' legal ID at the bottom of the screen (since that's the feed D* is using) right at the top of the hour.

I will defer to Trip regarding legal IDs under channel-sharing rules. Which may alleviate the need to file for a call-letter change.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.

Last edited by DrDon; 04-29-2017 at 08:13 AM.
DrDon is offline  
post #68 of 478 Old 04-29-2017, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Trip in VA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Alexandria, VA, US
Posts: 16,865
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1661 Post(s)
Liked: 703
The rule is unchanged from the analog days, when legal IDs are required in the normal fashion near the top of the hour for full-power stations. That should, to my knowledge, also apply to channel sharing stations.

- Trip

N4MJC

Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

RabbitEars

"Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand..." - Rush "Witch Hunt"

Trip in VA is offline  
post #69 of 478 Old 04-29-2017, 03:57 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SFischer1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Sunnyvale, CA 94087
Posts: 3,958
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1018 Post(s)
Liked: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
The rule is unchanged from the analog days, when legal IDs are required in the normal fashion near the top of the hour for full-power stations. That should, to my knowledge, also apply to channel sharing stations.

- Trip
Looking at my captures the Commercial stations do give their ID's near the top of the hour on screen.

For Non-Commercial stations it appears not to be true, but as they ID so often at the end of programs the requirement must be met. And when they are begging, so many times.

"normal fashion", do you mean:





I see that format only on KOFY, the other Commercial stations seem to put it at the bottom with call letters and Cities Served.

SHF
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	vlcsnap-2017-04-29-14h33m35s870.png
Views:	1051
Size:	449.0 KB
ID:	2109185  
SFischer1 is offline  
post #70 of 478 Old 04-29-2017, 04:47 PM
Super Moderator
 
DrDon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Metro Detroit, Tampa Bay
Posts: 17,207
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2337 Post(s)
Liked: 4448
Doesn't matter where on the screen they do that, they just have to do it and it has to be readable. The first city following the call sign is the primary city of license. Radio's the same way. We were Pittsburg's 98 Rock, loud and proud until the break closest to the top of the hour when a recorded announcement quickly whispered "WRRK, Braddock" then, loudly, "Pittsburgh's 98 ROCK!!" Legal requirement met.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.

Last edited by DrDon; 04-29-2017 at 04:51 PM.
DrDon is offline  
post #71 of 478 Old 04-29-2017, 05:33 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SFischer1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Sunnyvale, CA 94087
Posts: 3,958
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1018 Post(s)
Liked: 124
DTV Channel Sharing first appearance?

I did some Goggling and poking around the FCC's site and came to the conclusion that the first we may learn about stations channel sharing may be when they file "FCC Form 2100 to apply for a digital construction permit".

Except of course when they make public statements.

I think that there is a quick way to check for the Form 2100 filing each day or get a report on those that have been filed. I never got the details but posts elsewhere appear to be based on those methods.

Or they private until granted?

SHF
SFischer1 is offline  
post #72 of 478 Old 04-29-2017, 06:09 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Trip in VA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Alexandria, VA, US
Posts: 16,865
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1661 Post(s)
Liked: 703
So far, only KTNC has filed to share onto KCNS. You'll need to search for such filings on LMS: https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/da...AppSearch.html

- Trip

N4MJC

Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

RabbitEars

"Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand..." - Rush "Witch Hunt"

Trip in VA is offline  
post #73 of 478 Old 04-29-2017, 06:58 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SFischer1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Sunnyvale, CA 94087
Posts: 3,958
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1018 Post(s)
Liked: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
So far, only KTNC has filed to share onto KCNS. You'll need to search for such filings on LMS: https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/da...AppSearch.html

- Trip
Thanks.

Of course the most interesting items are not attached.

https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/da...5bb6274b9e0766

I have captured the TSReader data for KCNS so a comparison can be made after the sharing is started.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/45-loc...l#post52628569

WAIT! It has already started and has been going on for years.

SCANNING: 623000000 (us-bcast:39)
LOCK: 8vsb (ss=100 snq=85 seq=100)
TSID: 0x0189
PROGRAM 1: 38.1 SBN
PROGRAM 2: 38.2 Sino TV
PROGRAM 3: 38.3 KTNC
PROGRAM 4: 38.4 Comet
PROGRAM 5: 38.5 NTD

Note the host station does not display it's call letters but KTNC does.

--------------------------------------

It appears that by entering a starting date and an ending date plus California gives good results and matches what I have seen posted before elsewhere.

SHF

Last edited by SFischer1; 04-30-2017 at 11:01 AM.
SFischer1 is offline  
post #74 of 478 Old 04-30-2017, 01:22 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
JHBrandt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: S. Garland, TX
Posts: 7,052
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2865 Post(s)
Liked: 1395
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
My memory of TSID has returned. I think that number in the ATSC stream replaces the need for station ID on the hour.

The TSID is assigned to each station and is unique.

https://www.rabbitears.info/oddsande...p?request=tsid

SHF
I think those are two different things. The TSID is unique to the entire transport stream (hence the name); call letters are unique to the station. When there's channel sharing, you have two stations, each with their own call letters, but there's only one transmitter, transport stream, and TSID.

BTW, LPTVs often do not have unique TSIDs. A default TSID of 1 is used by many of them.

One thing I'd be worried about with channel-sharing is the loss of subchannels. There's still only 19.39Mbps to go around, and if you put two HD .1 channels on one carrier, there's barely room for even one SD .2 subchannel. Stations can still jam them in if they wish, but PQ is likely to suffer noticeably.

Of course, I suppose one of the stations may decide to switch from HD back to SD, and keep their subchannels; that could be OK if their HD channel is one of the smaller networks (like My) that airs mostly reruns. I wouldn't expect major networks like NBC or Telemundo to switch to SD though.
JHBrandt is offline  
post #75 of 478 Old 04-30-2017, 03:12 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SFischer1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Sunnyvale, CA 94087
Posts: 3,958
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1018 Post(s)
Liked: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post
I think those are two different things. The TSID is unique to the entire transport stream (hence the name); call letters are unique to the station. When there's channel sharing, you have two stations, each with their own call letters, but there's only one transmitter, transport stream, and TSID.
...
I noted that, the TSID plus the PCR PID number will identify the license holder under channel sharing, but I do not like that as the PCR PID is not assigned by the FCC. The commercial checkers will adapt of course.

Call Letters appear to not be required but the FCC could change that.

I looked at the TSReader output and did not see a place for the channel shares / sharer's TSID but got the feeling that there are places. Time to reread the ATSC 1.0 spec (And the ATSC 3.0 spec as that is in the FCC's channel sharing agreement document.). Only license holders need TSID or it's replacement but the other sub-channels need not apply.

I was going to say something about "LPTVs often do not have unique TSIDs" but seeing RabbitEars's current list I was unsure.

The sub-channels will need to come to new agreements, that must be in what they signed with the stations. Some may be dropped or have very low rates.

The FCC has said that two 16:9 streams plus four other streams have been demonstrated, About six stations are on the air here right now.

Look at the TSReader output for KCNS - KTNC. There are two 16:9 streams and three (3) 4:3 streams.

The data rate and resolution are what was negotiated, 30%, 25%, 10% and two 12% data rates for the video streams were in the ten (10) minute capture.

Low PQ, you need to look at KAXT with Twelve (12) Video streams. I consider the quality to be adequate for the streams but YMMV.

SHF

Last edited by SFischer1; 04-30-2017 at 07:13 PM.
SFischer1 is offline  
post #76 of 478 Old 04-30-2017, 04:42 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SFischer1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Sunnyvale, CA 94087
Posts: 3,958
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1018 Post(s)
Liked: 124
KAXT TSreader Output

I made a ten (10) minute capture of KAXT and the TSReader output is attached. No I do not know why there are so many PIDs being shown.

This was a very flawed capture, I do not currently have an antenna pointed in the right direction and did not wish to disturb the bookshelf top TERK HDTVa which has to look through trees anyway.

There are currently Twelve (12) Video Streams and one Audio Only Stream.

The Video rates go from ~ 12% down to 5%.

Previously I did watch one stream which had a higher data rate and the programs were fine and similar to what was on another station before I caused it to be taken off by requesting program listings.

Spoiler!


SHF
Attached Files
File Type: zip KAXT.zip (419.3 KB, 42 views)
JHBrandt likes this.

Last edited by SFischer1; 04-30-2017 at 05:37 PM.
SFischer1 is offline  
post #77 of 478 Old 04-30-2017, 08:36 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
JHBrandt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: S. Garland, TX
Posts: 7,052
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2865 Post(s)
Liked: 1395
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
I noted that, the TSID plus the PCR PID number will identify the license holder under channel sharing, but I do not like that as the PCR PID is not assigned by the FCC. The commercial checkers will adapt of course.
Yes; TSID + PID should uniquely identify not only the station but even the subchannel. But you're right: the PIDs are assigned by the stations themselves and could change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
I was going to say something about "LPTVs often do not have unique TSIDs" but seeing RabbitEars's current list I was unsure.
Here are some from my area (DFW):

  • KATA/50: TSID=1 (BTW, not particularly relevant but interesting: this is a Class A channel, so they did participate in the auction and is one of the few stations nationwide to be going off the air completely.)
  • KLEG/44: TSID=1 (Another Class A station, but this one will be moved to RF 28. The following stations are not Class A and their post-repacking fate has yet to be determined)
  • KHFD/51: TSID=1
  • KVFW/38: TSID=0 (This may change though; they have numerous technical issues and change their configuration often. I'm pretty sure I've seen them use a TSID of 100 at some point.)
  • KJJM/34: TSID=1
  • K31GL: TSID=0
  • KHPK/28: TSID=1
  • KODF/26: TSID=1 (Actually on RF 27; virtual channel 26)
  • K25FW: TSID=1
  • KWDA/30: TSID=0 (Actually on RF 21; virtual channel 30)
  • KBOP/20: TSID=7021 (That looks like an assigned number, so I'm thinking the FCC does assign TSIDs for LPTVs but they aren't required to use them? Maybe Trip can clarify)
  • KPFW/18: TSID=1
  • KXDA/41: TSID=1 (Actually on RF 5 - currently DFW's only digital VHF-Lo station)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
The FCC has said that two 16:9 streams plus four other streams have been demonstrated, About six stations are on the air here right now.

Look at the TSReader output for KCNS - KTNC. There are two 16:9 streams and three (3) 4:3 streams.

The data rate and resolution are what was negotiated, 30%, 25%, 10% and two 12% data rates for the video streams were in the ten (10) minute capture.

Low PQ, you need to look at KAXT with Twelve (12) Video streams. I consider the quality to be adequate for the streams but YMMV.

SHF
I believe it. A lot depends on the programming, though. If it's mostly talking heads (e.g., preachers, infomercials) then MPEG/2 can do a pretty decent job compressing the data, and everything will look OK. But put a couple of football (soccer or American) games on the two HDTV stations and something's gonna give, although a statmux (with minimum and maximum data rates as negotiated) can help a little.

Worst case in DFW is probably KAZD/55 with 7 subchannels, one of which is HD. The HD channel looks OK but some of the SD channels get pretty "blocky" at times.
JHBrandt is offline  
post #78 of 478 Old 04-30-2017, 09:10 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SFischer1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Sunnyvale, CA 94087
Posts: 3,958
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1018 Post(s)
Liked: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post
...
I believe it. A lot depends on the programming, though. If it's mostly talking heads (e.g., preachers, infomercials) then MPEG/2 can do a pretty decent job compressing the data, and everything will look OK. But put a couple of football (soccer or American) games on the two HDTV stations and something's gonna give, although a statmux (with minimum and maximum data rates as negotiated) can help a little.

Worst case in DFW is probably KAZD/55 with 7 subchannels, one of which is HD. The HD channel looks OK but some of the SD channels get pretty "blocky" at times.
ATSC 3.0 to the rescue, I was a bit surprised that it was mentioned in the FCC Channel Sharing document.
  • People wanting to sell us new $$$$ equipment.
  • Head of the FCC wanting ATSC 3.0, or his boss for the first reason.
  • Viewers wanting to see the fleas on the whiskers of an ant. (4096TV)
  • Wireless companies wanting the TV channels for wireless.
  • Number of Smart Phones sold rising exponentially, see previous reason.
A perfect storm to get ATSC 3.0 fast as possible.

Many sub-channels will accept the poor quality just to stay on the air for their viewers. Note the ever later date for NTSC Analog stations to go off the air. Their viewers cannot afford new sets. I rode past many of their homes away from Silicon Valley on my motorcycle.

SHF
SFischer1 is offline  
post #79 of 478 Old 05-01-2017, 02:33 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Larry Kenney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 3,703
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 795 Post(s)
Liked: 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
The rule is unchanged from the analog days, when legal IDs are required in the normal fashion near the top of the hour for full-power stations. That should, to my knowledge, also apply to channel sharing stations.
- Trip
As DrDon noted, all of the full power and Class A stations seem to be Iding by using a super at the top of the hour, but many of the low power stations are not. Are they exempt from the IDing rule? There's one station here in the Bay Area that has NEVER indicated their city of license in their ID, when and if they have one.

Larry

My complete SF Bay Area DTV Station Lists: http://www.larrykenney.com/sfonair.html
Lots of Broadcasting links and information: http://www.larrykenney.com/broadcast.html
Live reception scans from my HD Home Run receivers: http://www.larrykenney.com/hdhr/
Photos and info on my antennas: http://www.larrykenney.com/tvantennas.html
Larry Kenney is offline  
post #80 of 478 Old 05-01-2017, 03:06 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Larry Kenney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 3,703
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 795 Post(s)
Liked: 202
Several stations are now carrying two HD channels plus one or more SD channels and the quality seems to be OK. Several stations have multiple 16:9 SD channels. With the newest equipment they allow the channels to share the 19 MHz of space, so if one is not using a lot of bandwidth, another can.

Here in the SF Bay Area we have two HD channels plus one or more SD channels on:
KGO 7
KSBW 8
KNTV 11
KDTV 14
KUVS 19
KRCB 22
KEZT 23
KTSF 26
KSTS 48
KQCA 58
KTFK 64
KFSF 66

Larry

My complete SF Bay Area DTV Station Lists: http://www.larrykenney.com/sfonair.html
Lots of Broadcasting links and information: http://www.larrykenney.com/broadcast.html
Live reception scans from my HD Home Run receivers: http://www.larrykenney.com/hdhr/
Photos and info on my antennas: http://www.larrykenney.com/tvantennas.html
Larry Kenney is offline  
post #81 of 478 Old 05-01-2017, 07:25 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Trip in VA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Alexandria, VA, US
Posts: 16,865
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1661 Post(s)
Liked: 703
Some of those I wasn't aware had two HDs. Specifically, KRCB, KTSF, and KQCA. What's going on there, Larry?

- Trip

N4MJC

Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

RabbitEars

"Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand..." - Rush "Witch Hunt"

Trip in VA is offline  
post #82 of 478 Old 05-01-2017, 08:35 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Calaveras's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Hereford, AZ
Posts: 5,982
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1752 Post(s)
Liked: 403
KQCA has one HD channel and two 16:9 480i sub channels.
Calaveras is offline  
post #83 of 478 Old 05-10-2017, 02:18 PM
Advanced Member
 
Pete-N2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lynchburg, VA
Posts: 799
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 134 Post(s)
Liked: 61
Frequencies from 470-512 MHz are designated as UHF-TV Sharing frequencies and are available in certain limited areas of the county. Public Safety entities in these Urbanized Areas are allowed to share UHF frequencies on TV channels 14 through 20. FCC Rules 90.301 through 90.317 governs the assignment of frequencies and protection of TV stations.

What affect does the repack have on Public Safety Sharing?
Pete-N2 is offline  
post #84 of 478 Old 05-10-2017, 03:59 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
JHBrandt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: S. Garland, TX
Posts: 7,052
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2865 Post(s)
Liked: 1395
None here in DFW. Channels 15-17 are reserved and will still be reserved after the repack.

Personally I think two 6 MHz guard bands for one 6 MHz public safety channel is outrageous overkill. Couldn't they have designed the public safety radio system to straddle the middle of channels 15-16 and have two 3 MHz guard bands? But, they designed it way back in the analog era, when there were 67 (2-69 minus ch.37) available channels and most were vacant, and it's too late to change it now
JHBrandt is offline  
post #85 of 478 Old 05-10-2017, 04:39 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Trip in VA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Alexandria, VA, US
Posts: 16,865
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1661 Post(s)
Liked: 703
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete-N2 View Post
Frequencies from 470-512 MHz are designated as UHF-TV Sharing frequencies and are available in certain limited areas of the county. Public Safety entities in these Urbanized Areas are allowed to share UHF frequencies on TV channels 14 through 20. FCC Rules 90.301 through 90.317 governs the assignment of frequencies and protection of TV stations.

What affect does the repack have on Public Safety Sharing?
Very little. Those services were protected separately as part of the repack so that, for example, no station within the rule protected distances was placed on channels 15, 16, or 17 in Dallas.

- Trip

N4MJC

Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

RabbitEars

"Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand..." - Rush "Witch Hunt"

Trip in VA is offline  
post #86 of 478 Old 05-10-2017, 05:58 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
dr1394's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Mizar 5
Posts: 3,484
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 197 Post(s)
Liked: 124
T-band (470 to 512 MHz) is supposed to get cleared eventually (as part of the same legislation that ordered the 600 MHz spectrum auction). I'm not sure how it would be auctioned. Perhaps for individual television channels? Other part 90 users?

https://transition.fcc.gov/pshs/docs...t_July2016.pdf

Ron

HD MPEG-2 Test Patterns http://www.w6rz.net
dr1394 is online now  
post #87 of 478 Old 05-10-2017, 09:25 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
JHBrandt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: S. Garland, TX
Posts: 7,052
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2865 Post(s)
Liked: 1395
Interesting. It appears the law does require the FCC to auction off that spectrum eventually, and use the auction proceeds to help current users relocate. (Not sure where they would go - perhaps the 700 MHz band, where some parts are reserved for public safety uses? Edit: just saw that the Q&A mentions some other possibilities, including 450-470 MHz, which is very nearby.)

I suppose a TV station could bid for a 6-MHz channel just as easily as anyone, but I didn't see anything in the .pdf that says the spectrum has to go to TV. Also, the deadline to start the auction is 2021, so not likely to provide any short-term relief to the upcoming TV spectrum crunch.

Last edited by JHBrandt; 05-10-2017 at 09:29 PM.
JHBrandt is offline  
post #88 of 478 Old 05-14-2017, 09:01 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
videobruce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Buffalo NY
Posts: 16,415
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 855 Post(s)
Liked: 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by veedon View Post
?
Honestly, there seems to be a serious lack of respect for the history and heritage of OTA broadcasting.
This whole thing is nothing but a joke. Another capitalist scheme to put tons of money in select pockets with most others to suffer. The FCC is a puppet of the wireless industry, they already took 31 channels from the original allocations.
LenL and kc9pke like this.

.
.
Recording free OTA TV for 'time shifting' has been here since 1975. Will there be DVR's to do the same when ATSC3 obsoletes existing DVR's??
videobruce is offline  
post #89 of 478 Old 05-14-2017, 03:10 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
holl_ands's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 6,197
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 958 Post(s)
Liked: 528
FCC Webpages re Public Safety Spectrum:
https://www.fcc.gov/public-safety/pu...afety-spectrum [ALL Bands]
https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-ado...afety-spectrum [700 MHz "D Block" Rules]
https://www.fcc.gov/general/700-mhz-...ety-spectrum-0 [6.25 kHz Narrowband & LTE Wideband Allocations]

FirstNet Status: [Licensed to use 700 MHz "D Block"]
https://www.firstnet.gov

Last edited by holl_ands; 05-14-2017 at 03:19 PM.
holl_ands is offline  
post #90 of 478 Old 05-16-2017, 01:17 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Calaveras's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Hereford, AZ
Posts: 5,982
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1752 Post(s)
Liked: 403
The FCC auction report says that stations going off the air have 90 days after receipt of their share of the auction proceeds and channel sharing stations have 180 days after they are paid to do so. The May 11 deadline for the wireless companies to pay for the won spectrum has passed. Is there any information on when the reverse auction winners will be paid?

Also the report says stations moving to a new channel have until July 12 to file for a construction permit. I haven't seen any of my local stations or adjacent market stations file yet.
Calaveras is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply HDTV Technical

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off