AVS Official Topic: The FCC and Television Spectrum Repack - Page 3 - AVS Forum

chitchatjf · 04-28-2017, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrDon

WNBC isn't getting a new channel. The frequency was sold in the auction. WNBC's programming will move to WNJU in a channel-sharing arrangement. Scroll back a page or two for the discussion if you like. Basically, WNJU will have NBC and Telemundo and possibly TeleXitos and Cozi all on the one channel.
.

They already do this in Boston

SFischer1 · 04-28-2017, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrDon

...

I speculated earlier that it wouldn't surprise me to see them change WNJU's call letters to WNBC. You just don't dump flagship call letters in market number one.

The call letters displayed on viewers HDTV's would not change for WNBC as the Virtual Channel will remain the same.

There are some people (Like me) that have "some" equipment that displays the RF channel.

I just displayed KNTV 11.3 on my last years Sony and 11.3 has the call letters KNTV but is 720p HD 16:9 on RF channel 49.5 where 11.1 KNTV is 1080i HD 16:9 on RF channel 12.3. The RF channel is not displayed but I can dig into the setup screens to find the RF channel, but it is hard and most viewers never will do unless someone in the know tells them how.

KNTV 11.3 will have a new RF channel 19.5 after the repack.

Code:

11.1 12.3 13.3 KNTV NBC San Jose Mt. San Bruno 103.1 1236  H - M - nbcbayarea.com 
  
11.2 12.4 13.4   Cozi-TV   Mt. San Bruno       
  
11.3 49.5 19.5   KNTV-NBC   Mt. Allison

SHF

DrDon · 04-28-2017, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SFischer1

The call letters displayed on viewers HDTV's would not change for WNBC as the Virtual Channel will remain the same.

That's true. But if they don't keep those, someone else will snatch them up. The next "actual" WNBC could very well be in Detroit or DC. And I'm not sure what the legal ID rule is involving subchannels, but it's confusing if, at the top of the hour, you see "WNJU, New York" on the screen. Legal ID and virtual ID are two different things.

Trip in VA · 04-28-2017, 05:05 PM

If it's done as a channel share under the FCC's rules, then it will keep its call sign and license separately on the WNJU spectrum.

- Trip

SFischer1 · 04-28-2017, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrDon

That's true. But if they don't keep those, someone else will snatch them up. The next "actual" WNBC could very well be in Detroit or DC. And I'm not sure what the legal ID rule is involving subchannels, but it's confusing if, at the top of the hour, you see "WNJU, New York" on the screen. Legal ID and virtual ID are two different things.

I have not seen a reference to the FCC's request for comments as to if it should ignore sub-channels, manage them or take any other action. For legal ID (Which I never have seen for years) is that still in the law?

Locally some of the stations do not even include their call letters in what viewers normally see, KAXT VC 1 (Not a typo, the FCC said OK), KKPX VC 65, KMMC VC 40, KCNS VC 38, KRON VC 4 (Larry needs to check).

Other stations call letters appear often on other's sub-channel's PSIP.

For a complete list see Larry's sig line for results from his antenna farm and his great list of stations (Both VC and RF sorts)

The list for my main antenna is attached, sorry I never completed the AWK program for ascending order.

SHF

SFischer1 · 04-28-2017, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SFischer1

...
For legal ID (Which I never have seen for years) is that still in the law?
...

SHF

My memory of TSID has returned. I think that number in the ATSC stream replaces the need for station ID on the hour.

The TSID is assigned to each station and is unique.

https://www.rabbitears.info/oddsande...p?request=tsid

SHF

DrDon · 04-29-2017, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SFischer1

My memory of TSID has returned. I think that number in the ATSC stream replaces the need for station ID on the hour.

I do not believe so. The legal ID still has to be visually or aurally done near the top of every hour. The transmitter's call sign and city of license have to be identified on every stream broadcast:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/73.1201

You made me tune around and watch a lot of subchannels I don't normally watch

. Every single one ran a legal ID right at the top of the hour, usually superimposed on the lower part of the screen, which fits with the FCC regs for digital television. I thought I found one that didn't, and just as I started to tune away, it appeared. Timer is apparently set to TOH + 1:00. Same thing happened an hour later (I have no life).

Even watching the "network simulcast" DirecTV channel during golf, you'll see KCBS' legal ID at the bottom of the screen (since that's the feed D* is using) right at the top of the hour.

I will defer to Trip regarding legal IDs under channel-sharing rules. Which may alleviate the need to file for a call-letter change.

Trip in VA · 04-29-2017, 11:29 AM

The rule is unchanged from the analog days, when legal IDs are required in the normal fashion near the top of the hour for full-power stations. That should, to my knowledge, also apply to channel sharing stations.

- Trip

SFischer1 · 04-29-2017, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trip in VA

The rule is unchanged from the analog days, when legal IDs are required in the normal fashion near the top of the hour for full-power stations. That should, to my knowledge, also apply to channel sharing stations.

- Trip

Looking at my captures the Commercial stations do give their ID's near the top of the hour on screen.

For Non-Commercial stations it appears not to be true, but as they ID so often at the end of programs the requirement must be met. And when they are begging, so many times.

"normal fashion", do you mean:

I see that format only on KOFY, the other Commercial stations seem to put it at the bottom with call letters and Cities Served.

SHF

DrDon · 04-29-2017, 04:47 PM

Doesn't matter where on the screen they do that, they just have to do it and it has to be readable. The first city following the call sign is the primary city of license. Radio's the same way. We were Pittsburg's 98 Rock, loud and proud until the break closest to the top of the hour when a recorded announcement quickly whispered "WRRK, Braddock" then, loudly, "Pittsburgh's 98 ROCK!!" Legal requirement met.

SFischer1 · 04-29-2017, 05:33 PM

I did some Goggling and poking around the FCC's site and came to the conclusion that the first we may learn about stations channel sharing may be when they file "FCC Form 2100 to apply for a digital construction permit".

Except of course when they make public statements.

I think that there is a quick way to check for the Form 2100 filing each day or get a report on those that have been filed. I never got the details but posts elsewhere appear to be based on those methods.

Or they private until granted?

SHF

Trip in VA · 04-29-2017, 06:09 PM

So far, only KTNC has filed to share onto KCNS. You'll need to search for such filings on LMS: https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/da...AppSearch.html

- Trip

SFischer1 · 04-29-2017, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trip in VA

So far, only KTNC has filed to share onto KCNS. You'll need to search for such filings on LMS: https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/da...AppSearch.html

- Trip

Thanks.

Of course the most interesting items are not attached.

https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/da...5bb6274b9e0766

I have captured the TSReader data for KCNS so a comparison can be made after the sharing is started.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/45-loc...l#post52628569

WAIT! It has already started and has been going on for years.

SCANNING: 623000000 (us-bcast:39)
LOCK: 8vsb (ss=100 snq=85 seq=100)
TSID: 0x0189
PROGRAM 1: 38.1 SBN
PROGRAM 2: 38.2 Sino TV
PROGRAM 3: 38.3 KTNC
PROGRAM 4: 38.4 Comet
PROGRAM 5: 38.5 NTD

Note the host station does not display it's call letters but KTNC does.

--------------------------------------

It appears that by entering a starting date and an ending date plus California gives good results and matches what I have seen posted before elsewhere.

SHF

JHBrandt · 04-30-2017, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SFischer1

My memory of TSID has returned. I think that number in the ATSC stream replaces the need for station ID on the hour.

The TSID is assigned to each station and is unique.

https://www.rabbitears.info/oddsande...p?request=tsid

SHF

I think those are two different things. The TSID is unique to the entire transport stream (hence the name); call letters are unique to the station. When there's channel sharing, you have two stations, each with their own call letters, but there's only one transmitter, transport stream, and TSID.

BTW, LPTVs often do not have unique TSIDs. A default TSID of 1 is used by many of them.

One thing I'd be worried about with channel-sharing is the loss of subchannels. There's still only 19.39Mbps to go around, and if you put two HD .1 channels on one carrier, there's barely room for even one SD .2 subchannel. Stations can still jam them in if they wish, but PQ is likely to suffer noticeably.

Of course, I suppose one of the stations may decide to switch from HD back to SD, and keep their subchannels; that could be OK if their HD channel is one of the smaller networks (like My) that airs mostly reruns. I wouldn't expect major networks like NBC or Telemundo to switch to SD though.

SFischer1 · 04-30-2017, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHBrandt

I think those are two different things. The TSID is unique to the entire transport stream (hence the name); call letters are unique to the station. When there's channel sharing, you have two stations, each with their own call letters, but there's only one transmitter, transport stream, and TSID.
...

I noted that, the TSID plus the PCR PID number will identify the license holder under channel sharing, but I do not like that as the PCR PID is not assigned by the FCC. The commercial checkers will adapt of course.

Call Letters appear to not be required but the FCC could change that.

I looked at the TSReader output and did not see a place for the channel shares / sharer's TSID but got the feeling that there are places. Time to reread the ATSC 1.0 spec (And the ATSC 3.0 spec as that is in the FCC's channel sharing agreement document.). Only license holders need TSID or it's replacement but the other sub-channels need not apply.

I was going to say something about "LPTVs often do not have unique TSIDs" but seeing RabbitEars's current list I was unsure.

The sub-channels will need to come to new agreements, that must be in what they signed with the stations. Some may be dropped or have very low rates.

The FCC has said that two 16:9 streams plus four other streams have been demonstrated, About six stations are on the air here right now.

Look at the TSReader output for KCNS - KTNC. There are two 16:9 streams and three (3) 4:3 streams.

The data rate and resolution are what was negotiated, 30%, 25%, 10% and two 12% data rates for the video streams were in the ten (10) minute capture.

Low PQ, you need to look at KAXT with Twelve (12) Video streams. I consider the quality to be adequate for the streams but YMMV.

SHF

SFischer1 · 04-30-2017, 04:42 PM

I made a ten (10) minute capture of KAXT and the TSReader output is attached. No I do not know why there are so many PIDs being shown.

This was a very flawed capture, I do not currently have an antenna pointed in the right direction and did not wish to disturb the bookshelf top TERK HDTVa which has to look through trees anyway.

There are currently Twelve (12) Video Streams and one Audio Only Stream.

The Video rates go from ~ 12% down to 5%.

Previously I did watch one stream which had a higher data rate and the programs were fine and similar to what was on another station before I caused it to be taken off by requesting program listings.

Spoiler!

SHF

JHBrandt · 04-30-2017, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SFischer1

I noted that, the TSID plus the PCR PID number will identify the license holder under channel sharing, but I do not like that as the PCR PID is not assigned by the FCC. The commercial checkers will adapt of course.

Yes; TSID + PID should uniquely identify not only the station but even the subchannel. But you're right: the PIDs are assigned by the stations themselves and could change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SFischer1

I was going to say something about "LPTVs often do not have unique TSIDs" but seeing RabbitEars's current list I was unsure.

Here are some from my area (DFW):

KATA/50: TSID=1 (BTW, not particularly relevant but interesting: this is a Class A channel, so they did participate in the auction and is one of the few stations nationwide to be going off the air completely.)
KLEG/44: TSID=1 (Another Class A station, but this one will be moved to RF 28. The following stations are not Class A and their post-repacking fate has yet to be determined)
KHFD/51: TSID=1
KVFW/38: TSID=0 (This may change though; they have numerous technical issues and change their configuration often. I'm pretty sure I've seen them use a TSID of 100 at some point.)
KJJM/34: TSID=1
K31GL: TSID=0
KHPK/28: TSID=1
KODF/26: TSID=1 (Actually on RF 27; virtual channel 26)
K25FW: TSID=1
KWDA/30: TSID=0 (Actually on RF 21; virtual channel 30)
KBOP/20: TSID=7021 (That looks like an assigned number, so I'm thinking the FCC does assign TSIDs for LPTVs but they aren't required to use them? Maybe Trip can clarify)
KPFW/18: TSID=1
KXDA/41: TSID=1 (Actually on RF 5 - currently DFW's only digital VHF-Lo station)

Quote:

Originally Posted by SFischer1

The FCC has said that two 16:9 streams plus four other streams have been demonstrated, About six stations are on the air here right now.

Look at the TSReader output for KCNS - KTNC. There are two 16:9 streams and three (3) 4:3 streams.

The data rate and resolution are what was negotiated, 30%, 25%, 10% and two 12% data rates for the video streams were in the ten (10) minute capture.

Low PQ, you need to look at KAXT with Twelve (12) Video streams. I consider the quality to be adequate for the streams but YMMV.

SHF

I believe it. A lot depends on the programming, though. If it's mostly talking heads (e.g., preachers, infomercials) then MPEG/2 can do a pretty decent job compressing the data, and everything will look OK. But put a couple of football (soccer or American) games on the two HDTV stations and something's gonna give, although a statmux (with minimum and maximum data rates as negotiated) can help a little.

Worst case in DFW is probably KAZD/55 with 7 subchannels, one of which is HD. The HD channel looks OK but some of the SD channels get pretty "blocky" at times.

SFischer1 · 04-30-2017, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHBrandt

...
I believe it. A lot depends on the programming, though. If it's mostly talking heads (e.g., preachers, infomercials) then MPEG/2 can do a pretty decent job compressing the data, and everything will look OK. But put a couple of football (soccer or American) games on the two HDTV stations and something's gonna give, although a statmux (with minimum and maximum data rates as negotiated) can help a little.

Worst case in DFW is probably KAZD/55 with 7 subchannels, one of which is HD. The HD channel looks OK but some of the SD channels get pretty "blocky" at times.

ATSC 3.0 to the rescue, I was a bit surprised that it was mentioned in the FCC Channel Sharing document.

People wanting to sell us new $$$$ equipment.
Head of the FCC wanting ATSC 3.0, or his boss for the first reason.
Viewers wanting to see the fleas on the whiskers of an ant. (4096TV)
Wireless companies wanting the TV channels for wireless.
Number of Smart Phones sold rising exponentially, see previous reason.

A perfect storm to get ATSC 3.0 fast as possible.

Many sub-channels will accept the poor quality just to stay on the air for their viewers. Note the ever later date for NTSC Analog stations to go off the air. Their viewers cannot afford new sets. I rode past many of their homes away from Silicon Valley on my motorcycle.

SHF

Larry Kenney · 05-01-2017, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trip in VA

The rule is unchanged from the analog days, when legal IDs are required in the normal fashion near the top of the hour for full-power stations. That should, to my knowledge, also apply to channel sharing stations.
- Trip

As DrDon noted, all of the full power and Class A stations seem to be Iding by using a super at the top of the hour, but many of the low power stations are not. Are they exempt from the IDing rule? There's one station here in the Bay Area that has NEVER indicated their city of license in their ID, when and if they have one.

Larry

Larry Kenney · 05-01-2017, 03:06 AM

Several stations are now carrying two HD channels plus one or more SD channels and the quality seems to be OK. Several stations have multiple 16:9 SD channels. With the newest equipment they allow the channels to share the 19 MHz of space, so if one is not using a lot of bandwidth, another can.

Here in the SF Bay Area we have two HD channels plus one or more SD channels on:
KGO 7
KSBW 8
KNTV 11
KDTV 14
KUVS 19
KRCB 22
KEZT 23
KTSF 26
KSTS 48
KQCA 58
KTFK 64
KFSF 66

Larry

Trip in VA · 05-01-2017, 07:25 AM

Some of those I wasn't aware had two HDs. Specifically, KRCB, KTSF, and KQCA. What's going on there, Larry?

- Trip

Calaveras · 05-01-2017, 08:35 AM

KQCA has one HD channel and two 16:9 480i sub channels.

Pete-N2 · 05-10-2017, 02:18 PM

Frequencies from 470-512 MHz are designated as UHF-TV Sharing frequencies and are available in certain limited areas of the county. Public Safety entities in these Urbanized Areas are allowed to share UHF frequencies on TV channels 14 through 20. FCC Rules 90.301 through 90.317 governs the assignment of frequencies and protection of TV stations.

What affect does the repack have on Public Safety Sharing?

JHBrandt · 05-10-2017, 03:59 PM

None here in DFW. Channels 15-17 are reserved and will still be reserved after the repack.

Personally I think two 6 MHz guard bands for one 6 MHz public safety channel is outrageous overkill. Couldn't they have designed the public safety radio system to straddle the middle of channels 15-16 and have two 3 MHz guard bands? But, they designed it way back in the analog era, when there were 67 (2-69 minus ch.37) available channels and most were vacant, and it's too late to change it now

Trip in VA · 05-10-2017, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete-N2

Frequencies from 470-512 MHz are designated as UHF-TV Sharing frequencies and are available in certain limited areas of the county. Public Safety entities in these Urbanized Areas are allowed to share UHF frequencies on TV channels 14 through 20. FCC Rules 90.301 through 90.317 governs the assignment of frequencies and protection of TV stations.

What affect does the repack have on Public Safety Sharing?

Very little. Those services were protected separately as part of the repack so that, for example, no station within the rule protected distances was placed on channels 15, 16, or 17 in Dallas.

- Trip

dr1394 · 05-10-2017, 05:58 PM

T-band (470 to 512 MHz) is supposed to get cleared eventually (as part of the same legislation that ordered the 600 MHz spectrum auction). I'm not sure how it would be auctioned. Perhaps for individual television channels? Other part 90 users?

https://transition.fcc.gov/pshs/docs...t_July2016.pdf

Ron

JHBrandt · 05-10-2017, 09:25 PM

Interesting. It appears the law does require the FCC to auction off that spectrum eventually, and use the auction proceeds to help current users relocate. (Not sure where they would go - perhaps the 700 MHz band, where some parts are reserved for public safety uses? Edit: just saw that the Q&A mentions some other possibilities, including 450-470 MHz, which is very nearby.)

I suppose a TV station could bid for a 6-MHz channel just as easily as anyone, but I didn't see anything in the .pdf that says the spectrum has to go to TV. Also, the deadline to start the auction is 2021, so not likely to provide any short-term relief to the upcoming TV spectrum crunch.

videobruce · 05-14-2017, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by veedon

?
Honestly, there seems to be a serious lack of respect for the history and heritage of OTA broadcasting.

This whole thing is nothing but a joke. Another capitalist scheme to put tons of money in select pockets with most others to suffer. The FCC is a puppet of the wireless industry, they already took 31 channels from the original allocations.

holl_ands · 05-14-2017, 03:10 PM

FCC Webpages re Public Safety Spectrum:
https://www.fcc.gov/public-safety/pu...afety-spectrum [ALL Bands]
https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-ado...afety-spectrum [700 MHz "D Block" Rules]
https://www.fcc.gov/general/700-mhz-...ety-spectrum-0 [6.25 kHz Narrowband & LTE Wideband Allocations]

FirstNet Status: [Licensed to use 700 MHz "D Block"]
https://www.firstnet.gov

Calaveras · 05-16-2017, 01:17 PM

The FCC auction report says that stations going off the air have 90 days after receipt of their share of the auction proceeds and channel sharing stations have 180 days after they are paid to do so. The May 11 deadline for the wireless companies to pay for the won spectrum has passed. Is there any information on when the reverse auction winners will be paid?

Also the report says stations moving to a new channel have until July 12 to file for a construction permit. I haven't seen any of my local stations or adjacent market stations file yet.

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