Sacramento, CA: Separation of separate VHF and UHF Antennas - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 29 Old 08-21-2019, 09:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Sacramento, CA: Separation of separate VHF and UHF Antennas

I have an Antenna Craft U8000 on a chimney attached mast.

I want to fabricate a separate Yagi tuned to Channel 10 centered at 195 MHz.
My plan is to run a separate line into a 2-way Delta switch box at the TV set.

My question: what considerations are required for separation of these two antennas at the mast?
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post #2 of 29 Old 08-21-2019, 09:29 AM
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You might wish to see the READ BEFORE POSTING threads at the top of this forum. Especially this one:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...-1st-post.html

No point in giving you generic answers that may or may not work. Might as well save time and post the requested info. Who knows? Someone might have a better way of accomplishing what you're trying to do.

Thanks.
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post #3 of 29 Old 08-21-2019, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgavin View Post
I have an Antenna Craft U8000 on a chimney attached mast.

I want to fabricate a separate Yagi tuned to Channel 10 centered at 195 MHz.
My plan is to run a separate line into a 2-way Delta switch box at the TV set.

My question: what considerations are required for separation of these two antennas at the mast?
Hello, bgavin

The considerations are what channels do you have at your location, what channels do you want, and what does your present antenna look like where it is mounted.

A signal report and a photo of your antenna would be helpful.


Is that KXTV ABC?

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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post #4 of 29 Old 08-21-2019, 01:56 PM
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One wavelength at the lowest frequency should be plenty of spacing or about 5 feet.
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post #5 of 29 Old 08-21-2019, 03:58 PM
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Here's a generic report for the area

https://www.rabbitears.info/searchma...&study_id=5568

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post #6 of 29 Old 08-21-2019, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgavin View Post
I have an Antenna Craft U8000 on a chimney attached mast.

I want to fabricate a separate Yagi tuned to Channel 10 centered at 195 MHz.
My plan is to run a separate line into a 2-way Delta switch box at the TV set.

My question: what considerations are required for separation of these two antennas at the mast?
In the two Vertically Stacked Antennas in different Band examples that I've modeled, Gain of either Antenna was NOT significantly affected until they were within a foot or so of each other (Metal-to-Metal Separation)....however, to prevent significant degradation to F/B and F/R Ratio, Separation distance needed to be at least 4-ft and preferably MORE (e.g. 6 to 8-ft):
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/stacked/stackuhfhivhf
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post #7 of 29 Old 08-21-2019, 04:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
A signal report and a photo of your antenna would be helpful.
Is that KXTV ABC?
Yes. It is VHF channel 10.
This is the Dancing With the Stars channel that my wife favors.
Even though it is not on the lower end of the Suck list, it is still the worse channel.
It is really the only VHF I care about.

My UHF is the Antenna Craft U8000.
It does a pretty decent job of VHF, and great for UHF.

I did the research and found the Stellar Labs 30-2476 will do the job, so I ordered on from Newark.
The U8000 is currently chimney mounted on an 8' mast.
I plan to replace this mast with a 10' 1.25" EMT conduit.
I've not measured the antenna height, but would guess at 20~25 above ground.

I'm not clear if mounting the two on the same mast poses a problem or not.
I'm thinking about running dual coax to a Delta switch box as an Either/Or arrangement for the Stellar or U8000 antenna.
There are no complications with a DVR, etc. Just plain ol' TV in real time.
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post #8 of 29 Old 08-21-2019, 04:11 PM
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Please post a LINK not an image. Again, see the stickies.

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post #9 of 29 Old 08-21-2019, 05:02 PM
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OK, I got it. Let's just say when I was an AV tech for the government, I learned how to use the swings and tilts of a view camera...he will know.


http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...90380c94eb925f


https://www.rabbitears.info/searchma...&study_id=5587

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post #10 of 29 Old 08-21-2019, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgavin View Post
My UHF is the Antenna Craft U8000.
It does a pretty decent job of VHF, and great for UHF.

Actually the U8000 doesn't do a good job on VHF. If you want to receive VHF you need a VHF antenna which is what you've ordered. It should do the trick for you. KXTV is just as strong as the Sacramento UHF when you have the right antenna.

Do you know that KXTV has a translator in Sacramento on channel 36? It should be easy for you to receive although it might be in a different direction than Walnut Grove. It's not on your TV Fool report but it should be of similar strength as KBTV, KAHC and KFMS, all located in Sacramento.
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post #11 of 29 Old 08-21-2019, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgavin View Post
Yes. It is VHF channel 10.

It is really the only VHF I care about.

My UHF is the Antenna Craft U8000.
It does a pretty decent job of VHF, and great for UHF.

I did the research and found the Stellar Labs 30-2476 will do the job, so I ordered on from Newark.
The U8000 is currently chimney mounted on an 8' mast.
I plan to replace this mast with a 10' 1.25" EMT conduit.

I'm not clear if mounting the two on the same mast poses a problem or not.
I'm thinking about running dual coax to a Delta switch box as an Either/Or arrangement for the Stellar or U8000 antenna.
Mount the VHF antenna below the UHF antenna; at least 33 inches....more would be better.



Combine the two antennas with a UVSJ (UHF-VHF Separator-Joiner); no switch needed.
https://store.antennasdirect.com/antenna-combiner.html

Do not order the Stellar Labs 33-2230, it isn't as good.

KXTV is also on real channel 36, as Calaveras mentioned; it's listed on the rabbitears.info report. But, there is a hill in the signal path just before your location.
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchma...&study_id=5587

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post #12 of 29 Old 08-21-2019, 07:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
Actually the U8000 doesn't do a good job on VHF.
In my house, the U8000 delivers acceptable VHF except for Channel 10 which pixelates.
I know it is not supposed to do this, per spec, but I get reception anyway.
Perhaps this is the virtual translation.
Only CH9 and CH10 are on Real frequencies.

I don't use a rotor, so my UHF is fixed to 209°-ish where the bulk of the transmitters are located in Walnut Grove.
The Ch 36 translator is not in this direction. I get zilch on my TV.

I was thinking at first about a Wade-type specifically for Ch-10, until I read all the Holl_Ands, etc on the Stellar Labs 30-2476.

Here is the link.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d903874e8ddd76 1

Here is the image of the U8000 and mast.
The dish is unused, left in place to keep the mounting hole sealed.

Got it on the combiner.
I will mount it protected under the eaves... we have blazing hot sun here that destroys everything left unprotected.

I am very proficient in swings and tilts.
I do appreciate the assistance.
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post #13 of 29 Old 08-21-2019, 07:54 PM - Thread Starter
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My TVFool report shows Ch10 not on 36, just 10 real.
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post #14 of 29 Old 08-21-2019, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgavin View Post

Here is the image of the U8000 and mast.
The dish is unused, left in place to keep the mounting hole sealed.
Thank you for the image. If your antennas are on the chimney, I think the signals
will just clear the tree to the south.
Quote:
I am very proficient in swings and tilts.
I know, I saw your excellent architectural photos.

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post #15 of 29 Old 08-21-2019, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgavin View Post
My TVFool report shows Ch10 not on 36, just 10 real.
There are many errors in TVFool reports because they are using a defective database. Their staff is small and Repack by the FCC has made the problem worse. However, I still find them useful when combined with the more accurate rabbitears.info reports.

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post #16 of 29 Old 08-21-2019, 08:27 PM
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post #17 of 29 Old 08-21-2019, 08:29 PM - Thread Starter
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I plan to replace the 8' mast with a 10' section of 1.25" EMT conduit, or up to 2.0" if need be.
I think anything higher than this would probably require guy wires, which I don't want to do.

Ch9 real is for the grandson.
Ch10 real is for my wife.

I had entertained thoughts of a tower like my Dad (K7PKT) used to have in the back yard...
But that seems like a lot of work for somebody who would rather watch Netflix.

Thanks again for all the assistance.
I'm just a duffer when it comes to antenna science.
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post #18 of 29 Old 08-21-2019, 08:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
I know, I saw your excellent architectural photos.
Thanks. Been a very long time.
My Sinar and Beseler 45 have been safe queens for a couple decades now.
I have enough film in the freezer to last 200 years... which will never get shot.
I just shoot digital now.
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post #19 of 29 Old 08-21-2019, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgavin View Post
In my house, the U8000 delivers acceptable VHF except for Channel 10 which pixelates.
I know it is not supposed to do this, per spec, but I get reception anyway.
Perhaps this is the virtual translation.
Only CH9 and CH10 are on Real frequencies.
My point is that even if you get reception it is poor compared to what a proper antenna will deliver. Scroll down to "Using a UHF antenna on VHF" and look at the DB-8 curve on the DTV Primer page. Your U8000 is likely similar to it.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

The only other high VHF station you have is KVIE on RF 9.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bgavin View Post
I was thinking at first about a Wade-type specifically for Ch-10, until I read all the Holl_Ands, etc on the Stellar Labs 30-2476.
There's no need for the highest gain antenna possible at your location. The Stellar Labs will probably be 20 dB better than the U8000 on VHF.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bgavin View Post
Got it on the combiner.
I will mount it protected under the eaves... we have blazing hot sun here that destroys everything left unprotected.
I used to live in Calaveras County at 2500' for 15 years and the UV is stronger there than where you are. I never had any trouble with preamps or combiners designed to be outdoors.


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[COLOR=Black] I am very proficient in swings and tilts.
No idea what this means.
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post #20 of 29 Old 08-21-2019, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
No idea what this means.
Quote:
I am very proficient in swings and tilts.
It was meant for me because I had made a good guess about his location and was letting him know how I did it.

Swings and tilts are used in view cameras. It isn't likely that you would have used them for your excellent astrophotography.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/View_camera

The movements are based on the Scheimpflug principle:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheimpflug_principle

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post #21 of 29 Old 08-22-2019, 07:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgavin View Post
My question: what considerations are required for separation of these two antennas at the mast?
Post #11 is the answer to my question.

May I assume this same separation applies if I decide to make a horizontal cross beam at the top of the mast?
I don't have the luxury of a tall mast, and don't want to push the UHF lower on the mast to mount the VHF at the top.
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post #22 of 29 Old 08-22-2019, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgavin View Post
Post #11 is the answer to my question.

May I assume this same separation applies if I decide to make a horizontal cross beam at the top of the mast?

I don't have the luxury of a tall mast, and don't want to push the UHF lower on the mast to mount the VHF at the top.
That chart is not carved in stone; every location is unique. If you mean a cross beam with the UHF and VHF antennas side-by-side, that's a lot of trouble. The antenna on the east end of the beam might have the signals blocked by the tree. Try the easy way first, Antennacraft U8000 UHF on top and VHF below it.

You have several strong local FM transmitters that might interfere with VHF reception, but they are in a different direction.
http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/f...d/Radar-FM.png
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post #23 of 29 Old 08-22-2019, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgavin View Post
May I assume this same separation applies if I decide to make a horizontal cross beam at the top of the mast?

A horizontal mast is problematic. Your U8000 is not designed to be mounted on a horizontal mast so some modifications would be required. You'd have to use a non-conducting mast because you can't stick a metal pole in the middle the VHF antenna.
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post #24 of 29 Old 08-22-2019, 09:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Well... that answers that question, thanks!
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post #25 of 29 Old 08-23-2019, 08:30 AM - Thread Starter
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A simpler solution: install a 2nd mast.
Both are diagonal across the chimney, and #2 will be 2' higher than #1 .
This will give all the separation I can manage in my situation.

I ordered the Antennas Direct EU385CF-1S combiner.
One of the purchasers put it on his test equipment and was very impressed how well it performed its advertised job.

Ronard chimney adapters are no longer in production.
I dug around a bit and found one similar to the old CM-9067 mount.
If this proves too flimsy, I will fabricate and weld a sufficient mount.

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post #26 of 29 Old 09-08-2019, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
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I installed the new Stellar Labs 30-2476 on a 10' section of 1-inch rigid conduit with a Skywalker chimney mount kit.

The antenna is very nicely assembled with an effective mounting system for the elements.
I assembled it all with Loctite 242 (blue), with additional star lock washers and jam nuts.
The assembled antenna was clear-coated with Krylon Clear, as was the mounting hardware.

As it turned out, the old mast was also 10', so I did not get the minimum wavelength separation between the two.
The combiner works great, and we now get 10 bars on my two VHF channels, and still get 10 bars on most of the UHF.
Pixelation is now gone.

I also installed two grounding rods and separate #8 wires as per the NEC instructions.
Many thanks to those here for their input and guidance.
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post #27 of 29 Old 09-08-2019, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgavin View Post
The combiner works great, and we now get 10 bars on my two VHF channels, and still get 10 bars on most of the UHF.
Pixelation is now gone.
Always happy to hear a good result. I'm going to reference this post the next time someone says they're going to use a UHF antenna to receive their one or two VHF stations hoping it'll be good enough.

Chuck
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post #28 of 29 Old 09-08-2019, 12:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Our situation degraded over the 10 years the U8000 has been installed.
When it first went up, real Ch10 was acceptable. Today it is trash on the U8000.
I attribute this to 10 years of tree growth between the antenna and transmitter.

We can still see the VHF SNR and bars bounce around a bit as the wind blows.
There is no substitute for antennas and combiners that are properly designed to work in their passbands.

In our house, the two VHF channels are viewed far more often than anything in the UHF band.
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post #29 of 29 Old 09-08-2019, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgavin View Post
The combiner works great, and we now get 10 bars on my two VHF channels, and still get 10 bars on most of the UHF.
Pixelation is now gone.

I also installed two grounding rods and separate #8 wires as per the NEC instructions.
Many thanks to those here for their input and guidance.
Very nice; thanks for the report.
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