The Official AVS Antenna and Related Hardware Topic! - Page 581 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 300Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #17401 of 17920 Old 09-19-2018, 05:26 AM
Advanced Member
 
Intheswamp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: L.A. (Lower Alabama)
Posts: 681
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 116 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Not enough metal there to be equivalent to an 8-bay antenna or even a 4-bay. I agree with it being roughly equivalent to a CS 2MAX that has a amp attached. It's probably well constructed...maybe. They definitely need to do a better job of supplying specs for these, though, especially at the price they're asking.

Intheswamp, but on a hill...
www.BeeWeather.com
Intheswamp is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #17402 of 17920 Old 09-19-2018, 04:22 PM
Advanced Member
 
Primestar31's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Under the bridge (Lower Michigan)
Posts: 607
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 194 Post(s)
Liked: 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by onwisconsin View Post
Sorry if this has been posted already...

Does anyone have any experience/ tech info on the new Kitz Tech UHF antenna(s) and how they compare to the DB8-E and alike?


http://www.kitztech.com/products.html

My personal opinion, is buy any antenna you want, and then put a Kitztech KT-200 preamp on it. I've used the KT-200-Coax model for many years now, and it's the best I've seen for my needs.
Primestar31 is offline  
post #17403 of 17920 Old 09-20-2018, 11:15 AM
Advanced Member
 
gbynum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Greenville SC
Posts: 591
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 80 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by wiivile View Post
With cordcutting being in vogue, I thought the number of people relying on OTA signals + Netflix would be increasing.
I agree with you ... BUT ... I don't think most people (not including AVS folks) consider OTA, rather just some forms of streaming. We'll have to see.
gbynum is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #17404 of 17920 Old 09-20-2018, 12:27 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
holl_ands's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 6,197
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 957 Post(s)
Liked: 527
Although I do NOT (yet) have detailed measurements of KT-COMBO from which to build a 4nec2 Model, I DID build a 4nec2 File and used nikiml's Optimizer to investigate expected Gain for "best" Dimensions.....I found Raw Gain of about 10 to 11 dBi....so comparable to A-D C2 (series) Low Gain Antennas.
holl_ands is offline  
post #17405 of 17920 Old 10-09-2018, 05:07 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
rabbit73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: S.E. VA
Posts: 3,289
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 892 Post(s)
Liked: 389
Receiving VHF-Low Channels with an Indoor Antenna

I have been trying to help cyclist44 on another forum. He lives in Thunder Bay Ontario, and has three OTA channels available. He is restricted to using an indoor antenna and is able to receive RF 9 with a flat antenna, but no luck with 2 and 4. This is his report:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9038a283a43f7f



I was interested in his problem because I am also restricted to an indoor antenna and have been doing experiments to learn how to optimize indoor reception. I suggested he try extending rabbit ears with wires to 88", buy a Winegard HD7000R which has extensions for VHF-Low, or build a folded dipole for channel 3. He asked how to build a folded dipole. I showed him the channel 3 folded dipole I had built to measure the ambient noise level at my location since that is the primary limiting factor for VHF-Low reception.



I clamped the 6' mast to my platform cart:



Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	cyclist44DHCreportTVF.JPG
Views:	285
Size:	73.0 KB
ID:	2466434  
leswar likes this.

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
Lord Kelvin, 1883
www.megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/dttpoorman.html

Last edited by rabbit73; 10-09-2018 at 06:56 PM.
rabbit73 is online now  
post #17406 of 17920 Old 10-09-2018, 05:11 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
rabbit73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: S.E. VA
Posts: 3,289
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 892 Post(s)
Liked: 389
Here is a closeup of the terminal block (Cinch 2142, takes up to 10 gauge wire)



This shows how the wire goes around the end. I used masking tape instead of nylon clamps to hold the wire:



The antenna can be taken apart for storage:



He told me he wanted to try an FM twin lead folded dipole first.
https://www.amazon.com/Axis-PET-10-8110-Dipole-Antenna/dp/B000EIOQBM

I told him it is a little short for channel 3, but it might work if his indoor signals are strong enough.
leswar likes this.

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
Lord Kelvin, 1883
www.megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/dttpoorman.html

Last edited by rabbit73; 10-09-2018 at 06:26 PM.
rabbit73 is online now  
post #17407 of 17920 Old 10-09-2018, 05:14 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
rabbit73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: S.E. VA
Posts: 3,289
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 892 Post(s)
Liked: 389
Measurements of Indoor Ambient Noise

I next made some measurements of the electrical noise level to find out how strong a signal would need to be for good reception with my indoor antennas.

Noise level on channel 3 with channel 3 folded dipole: -67 dBm
Signal would need to be at least -52 dBm to allow for the minimum required SNR of 15 dB
Your (cyclist44) report lists your signals at about -33 dBm, 19 dB stronger; looks possible

The tuner noise is irrelevant because it is buried in the ambient noise at -100 dBm

Electrical noise on VHF can come from CFL lamps, LED lamps, electric motors, switchmode AC adapters like for laptops and battery chargers, hair dryers, and ignition noise.

Noise on channel 10 using folded dipole of GE 34792 indoor/attic antenna: -91 dBm
Signal would need to be at least -76 dBm to allow for the minimum required SNR of 15 dB

Again, the tuner noise is irrelevant because it is buried in the ambient noise at -100 dBm

Noise on channel 36 using UHF yagi of GE 34792 antenna: -106 dBm, which is the thermal noise floor for a 6 MHz TV signal
Signal would need to be at least -85 dBm to allow for the tuner noise at -100 dBm and the minimum required SNR of 15 dB

So, you can see why there aren't many TV channels on VHF-Low 2-6, because of the high noise level from electrical interference. There are three advantages to VHF-Low: Not much transmitter power is needed for the same coverage area, the signals can make it over rough terrain easier, and the building penetration signal loss is low.

This chart shows why it is more difficult to receive VHF-Low channels because of the higher noise levels on VHF. Stronger signals are needed to overcome the noise:

Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Minimum Indoor Signal Levels_3.png
Views:	285
Size:	81.3 KB
ID:	2466404  

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
Lord Kelvin, 1883
www.megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/dttpoorman.html

Last edited by rabbit73; 10-10-2018 at 04:20 AM.
rabbit73 is online now  
post #17408 of 17920 Old 10-10-2018, 04:39 AM
Member
 
HerbieHightower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 66
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by HerbieHightower View Post
Thank you very much! Not much of this makes sense to me (LOL I'm an old man now) so this clears quite a bit up.
I want to thank all of you very much for all this information. I've been watching TV now on my antenna with no problems and great reception by using all your suggestions! I found some cheap Comcast internet only prices and added DirecTV Now for $25 (because we have AT&T cell phones) and greatly reduced my monthly bills. I cant thank you all enough.
rabbit73 likes this.
HerbieHightower is offline  
post #17409 of 17920 Old 10-10-2018, 05:52 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
rabbit73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: S.E. VA
Posts: 3,289
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 892 Post(s)
Liked: 389
Thank you for the report, Herbie. Glad that we were able to improve your reception and reduce your bills.

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
Lord Kelvin, 1883
www.megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/dttpoorman.html
rabbit73 is online now  
post #17410 of 17920 Old 10-10-2018, 07:49 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Calaveras's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Hereford, AZ
Posts: 5,948
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1732 Post(s)
Liked: 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
I have been trying to help cyclist44 on another forum. He lives in Thunder Bay Ontario, and has three OTA channels available. He is restricted to using an indoor antenna and is able to receive RF 9 with a flat antenna, but no luck with 2 and 4.

Indoor antenna low VHF is at a serious disadvantage compared to high VHF and UHF indoor antennas. The only antenna that really works for low VHF is an outdoor antenna and then, except for noise, it actually has an advantage. Time to retell some of my low VHF stories from the analog days.

In the 80's and 90's I lived in northern Fremont, CA which was a excellent location for OTA. Current TV Fool report for my old address:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...90383e1478349e

I had a average sized combo antenna at 20'. I could see Sutro Tower and Mt. San Bruno standing on my roof. A friend used to tell me I had the best picture quality he had ever seen. Not a trace of noise or ghosts even on channel 2.

A neighbor a couple of houses away was getting interference from my ham radio station so I went over to look at their TV. They had rabbit ears on top of the TV. Their low VHF picture quality was awful, weak and ghosty pictures. High VHF and UHF was better. Their signals must have been something on the order of 30 dB down from mine.


When my parents moved to Anaheim, CA in the early 70's their house came wired with an attic antenna. Low VHF stations were barely watchable. Here's the current TV Fool report for that address.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9038c6cebb3c4e

I put up an outdoor antenna for them and all their stations were great.


Between the large signal attenuation seen on indoor low VHF, much increased noise on low VHF and the multipath issues with DTV using indoor antennas in general, low VHF indoors is very difficult. I've given up on it and tell people they need an outdoor antenna if low VHF reception is a must. Even if ATSC 3.0 improves the multipath issue, it won't change the attenuation or noise issues.

My small 8 element low VHF LPDA (see attachment) receives the 3 low VHF station that are possible here. Two are over 100 miles away and one is 54 miles away with a 2 edge path.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	8el_low_VHF_lpda.jpg
Views:	44
Size:	34.7 KB
ID:	2466630  
rabbit73 likes this.
Calaveras is online now  
post #17411 of 17920 Old 10-10-2018, 10:57 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
rabbit73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: S.E. VA
Posts: 3,289
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 892 Post(s)
Liked: 389
Thank you for sharing your experience with low VHF reception.

The choices cyclist44 has are an indoor antenna for 2 and 4 or nothing for 2 and 4.

One advantage of digital OTA is that the minimum SNR is 15 dB, as compared to the analog C/N of about 45 dB.

I connected the CH3 analog output of my CM 7004 converter box to my TV and attenuated the signal to just before I saw snow, which was at -15 dBmV (-64 dBm to a first approximation). The RF output of the 7004 before attenuation is about +10 dBmV (-39 dBm to a first approximation).

Then, I connected the output of the 7004 to a second CH 3 antenna, and used the first CH3 antenna for reception. I couldn't understand why the received signal had to be much stronger until I realized that the receiving antenna was picking up the ambient noise and the analog signal that had to be above that noise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
Between the large signal attenuation seen on indoor low VHF, much increased noise on low VHF and the multipath issues with DTV using indoor antennas in general, low VHF indoors is very difficult. I've given up on it and tell people they need an outdoor antenna if low VHF reception is a must. Even if ATSC 3.0 improves the multipath issue, it won't change the attenuation or noise issues.
Yes, indoor reception of low VHF is difficult.

I don't have a low VHF channel in my area to make a building penetration test of indoor vs outdoor antenna location, but I have found that my building penetration loss for VHF-High is much less than for UHF. The Jim Creek VLF transmitter is able to communicate with submarines submerged in salt water.
 

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
Lord Kelvin, 1883
www.megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/dttpoorman.html

Last edited by rabbit73; 10-11-2018 at 04:24 PM.
rabbit73 is online now  
post #17412 of 17920 Old 10-10-2018, 01:13 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
holl_ands's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 6,197
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 957 Post(s)
Liked: 527
As shown above, Lo-VHF Band has a LOT of Man-Made Noise that can prevent reception. LCD/LED Lightbulbs, Fluorescent Lights and Dimmer Switches can be quite bad, so you should FIRST go around and turn each one OFF to see if you can identify the culprit so you can TRY a NAME-BRAND replacement....or change to zero-EMI HALOGEN light bulb(s)....which I prefer for reading anyway. After that you should shut OFF all of the house Circuit Breakers except the one the TV is on and see if there is any improvement....if so, turn each Circuit Breaker back ON to help identify the culprit (might be ANY Electronic Device, incl. HVAC or something else with a Fan).

================================================== =
Lo-VHF Band Folded Dipoles need to be FAT, e.g. 1/2-in Copper Tubing to cover Ch3-6 and Ch2-6 (although SWR is still a bit High)....and AWG24 Twin-Lead only has acceptable SWR across ONE Channel, which rules out one spanning both Ch2 and Ch4....which would likely require at least AWG12/10 (based on Ch6 AWG10 results):
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/vhffoldeddipole

Fol. HIGHER GAIN Lo-VHF DIY Antennas are FLAT, so can be hidden behind furniture or curtains (if in correct orientation)...the last two Directional Antennas might also suppress NOISE:
Hourglass-Loops are VERY simple to build with AWG10 and do NOT require Very FAT Elements:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loo...lassloopnorefl
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loo...mhourglassloop
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loo...ssloopreflrods [HGL + 3 Reflector Rods, perhaps in ATTIC]
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loo...sloop5reflrods [HGL + 5 Reflector Rods, perhaps in ATTIC]

FYI: Fol. DIY Hi-VHF Hourglass-Loop is Optimized for Hi-VHF Gain and SWR, but also provides significant Gain on Lo-VHF Ch2-6....albeit with excessive SWR that MAY or MAY NOT be a problem in any given situtation....so you'll just have to try it:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loo...fhourglassloop

Last edited by holl_ands; 08-02-2019 at 12:04 PM.
holl_ands is offline  
post #17413 of 17920 Old 10-12-2018, 05:41 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Skylinestar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Borneo Island
Posts: 3,043
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1311 Post(s)
Liked: 268
My living room wall outlet has this port: Shneider MX600 / MTN466097. The top port (F connector) says Satellite, the lower left (bellinglee) says TV, the lower right (bellinglee) says FM.
https://www.schneider-electric.com/e...tv%2Bfm%2Bsat/
https://www.elbutik.se/product.html/slututtag-sat-1db




RG6 cable is pulled from this wall port to the rooftop where I will hookup my tv antenna. I did continuity check from this to the RG6 cable end at the rooftop. Only the top port (F-connector labelled as Satellite) has continuity to the cable end at the rooftop. The lower 2 bellinglee ports (TV & FM) don't have continuity. I thought all 3 ports are in parallel. I plugged in the antenna in the rooftop and I connected my tv to the F connector (labelled satellite) and get NO SIGNAL. Then I connected my tv to the lower left bellinglee port (labelled TV). OMG, it received signal. Why the bellinglee ports (TV) doesn't have continuity and still receive TV antenna signal but the F-connector port (Satellite) get continuity but no tv signal? Is there special circuit inside this MTN466097 that filter the signal and pass it to the appropriate port, such as satellite signal (certain frequency) goes to the F connector, and terestrial tv signal goes to the bellinglee connector?

Should I ditch this type of wall port and replace it with a typical port?
Skylinestar is offline  
post #17414 of 17920 Old 10-12-2018, 05:54 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SFischer1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Sunnyvale, CA 94087
Posts: 3,911
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 989 Post(s)
Liked: 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post
... Then I connected my tv to the lower left bellinglee port (labelled TV). OMG, it received signal.
...
Should I ditch this type of wall port and replace it with a typical port?
Why force the next person who might move in to loose satellite.

You do not need DC conductivity, most signal splitters have none.

First see if you receive the stations you want.

(A TVFool report helps up help you. http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29 )

SHF
SFischer1 is online now  
post #17415 of 17920 Old 10-12-2018, 06:00 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Skylinestar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Borneo Island
Posts: 3,043
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1311 Post(s)
Liked: 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
First see if you receive the stations you want.

SHF
No. I don't get any signal if I plug the tv to the port labelled Satellite (F-connector). The port labelled TV works though. Hence my curiosity. Do you think there's a filtering circuit?
Skylinestar is offline  
post #17416 of 17920 Old 10-12-2018, 06:42 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SFischer1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Sunnyvale, CA 94087
Posts: 3,911
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 989 Post(s)
Liked: 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post
No. I don't get any signal if I plug the tv to the port labelled Satellite (F-connector). The port labelled TV works though. Hence my curiosity. Do you think there's a filtering circuit?
Quote:
How to wire a Belling-Lee connector

The humble Belling-Lee UHF plug is widely used in Europe2 as a TV and FM connector, commonly known as a TV aerial plug. The correct method of wiring isn't obvious, and with digital terrestrial televison demands are being made of this connector that were never envisaged by the Enfield Belling Lee company in 1922.
Having stumbled on this, your plan to replace with a F-connector is the way to go unless you are in Europe, your links are to Europe.

Although using a Belling-Lee connector made today may not be more than getting an adapter and plugging it in.

Actually having said the full name of a F connector (F---) trying to use one so many times, I would go with an adaptor.

Quote:
Is there special circuit inside this MTN466097 that filter the signal and pass it to the appropriate port
Yes there is RF splitting going inside that three type outlet, getting OTA TV reception with the connector labeled "TV" and FM music from the one marked "FM" would be expected but having an actual filter for the FM band a little bit surprising.

Quote:
Frekvensområde

Satellit:
950-2050 MHZ
VHF/UHF:
47-860 MHz
FM:
88-125 MHz
The satellite companies don't want you to cut their cord, installing what you have is very surprising and I am having trouble understanding.

Did your test show DC conductivity from the roof to the outlet for the center conductor? The Satellite frequencies listed are as expected, but very far away from DC.

Perhaps there is a amplifier powered from somewhere, have you found all the outlets.

Hopefully someone with more specific knowledge about Satellite connections can help more.


SHF
SFischer1 is online now  
post #17417 of 17920 Old 10-12-2018, 08:47 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Skylinestar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Borneo Island
Posts: 3,043
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1311 Post(s)
Liked: 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
Yes there is RF splitting going inside that three type outlet, getting OTA TV reception with the connector labeled "TV" and FM music from the one marked "FM" would be expected but having an actual filter for the FM band a little bit surprising.

Did your test show DC conductivity from the roof to the outlet for the center conductor? The Satellite frequencies listed are as expected, but very far away from DC.

Perhaps there is a amplifier powered from somewhere, have you found all the outlets.

SHF
I just short the center pin to the shield on the wall port (F connector labelled satellite), then climb up the rooftop (the other end of cable) and measure the resistance from the center core to the shield with a basic multimeter and get approx 5 ohm. Did the same on the TV port and zero continuity (O.L.). I don't have any advanced meter to test.

There's no additional amp/switch in the middle of signal chain. Just a plain wiring.
Skylinestar is offline  
post #17418 of 17920 Old 10-12-2018, 09:21 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SFischer1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Sunnyvale, CA 94087
Posts: 3,911
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 989 Post(s)
Liked: 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post
I just short the center pin to the shield on the wall port (F connector labelled satellite), then climb up the rooftop (the other end of cable) and measure the resistance from the center core to the shield with a basic multimeter and get approx 5 ohm. Did the same on the TV port and zero continuity (O.L.). I don't have any advanced meter to test.

There's no additional amp/switch in the middle of signal chain. Just a plain wiring.
If the snow is soon to be expected get your antenna up!

While a better report perhaps is: https://www.fcc.gov/media/engineering/dtvmaps

Posting a LINK to your TVFool will help us with other problems: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29

If a Satellite receiver was installed then OTA may have problems.

"zero DC continuity" means nothing in the RF world, a physical connection to the "TV" will allow what channels actually can be received by an antenna. (Or a FM Radio.)

SHF
SFischer1 is online now  
post #17419 of 17920 Old 10-13-2018, 04:38 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
rabbit73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: S.E. VA
Posts: 3,289
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 892 Post(s)
Liked: 389
A TV Fool report for Borneo Island?

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
Lord Kelvin, 1883
www.megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/dttpoorman.html
rabbit73 is online now  
post #17420 of 17920 Old 10-13-2018, 06:43 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
rabbit73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: S.E. VA
Posts: 3,289
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 892 Post(s)
Liked: 389
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post
My living room wall outlet has this port: Shneider MX600 / MTN466097. The top port (F connector) says Satellite, the lower left (bellinglee) says TV, the lower right (bellinglee) says FM.
https://www.schneider-electric.com/e...tv%2Bfm%2Bsat/
https://www.elbutik.se/product.html/slututtag-sat-1db




RG6 cable is pulled from this wall port to the rooftop where I will hookup my tv antenna. I did continuity check from this to the RG6 cable end at the rooftop. Only the top port (F-connector labelled as Satellite) has continuity to the cable end at the rooftop. The lower 2 bellinglee ports (TV & FM) don't have continuity. I thought all 3 ports are in parallel.
That is normal for your device. They are not in parallel; what you have is a triplexer. It passes three bands of frequencies. The top connector shows DC continuity because a satellite LNB needs DC voltage.
Quote:
I plugged in the antenna in the rooftop and I connected my tv to the F connector (labelled satellite) and get NO SIGNAL.
You got no TV signals because the triplexer only passes 950 to 2050 MHz to that connector.
Quote:
Then I connected my tv to the lower left bellinglee port (labelled TV). OMG, it received signal. Why the bellinglee ports (TV) doesn't have continuity and still receive TV antenna signal but the F-connector port (Satellite) get continuity but no tv signal?
It doesn't need to have DC continuity because it does not have to pass DC, but it will pass TV signals 47 to 860 MHz.
Quote:
Is there special circuit inside this MTN466097 that filter the signal and pass it to the appropriate port, such as satellite signal (certain frequency) goes to the F connector, and terestrial tv signal goes to the bellinglee connector?
Yes, that is correct.
Quote:

Teknisk data

Frekvensområde

Satellit: 950-2050 MHZ
VHF/UHF: 47-860 MHz
FM: 88-125 MHz

Uttagsdämpning (insertion loss)

Satellit: 2 dB
VHF/UHF: 1,5 dB
FM: 2 dB

Kontakter

Satellit: F
VHF/UHF: IEC hane (male)
FM: IEC hona (female)
Quote:
Should I ditch this type of wall port and replace it with a typical port?
It depends upon whether it is your property or it belongs to someone else. You can change it if it is your property. If it is not your property, connect the TV to the lower left port, using an adapter if necessary.
Quote:
SFischer1 and Skylinestar like this.

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
Lord Kelvin, 1883
www.megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/dttpoorman.html

Last edited by rabbit73; 10-13-2018 at 06:58 AM.
rabbit73 is online now  
post #17421 of 17920 Old 10-13-2018, 06:26 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SFischer1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Sunnyvale, CA 94087
Posts: 3,911
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 989 Post(s)
Liked: 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
A TV Fool report for Borneo Island?
I knew there was something I forgot to do.

SHF
SFischer1 is online now  
post #17422 of 17920 Old 10-16-2018, 10:03 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
rabbit73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: S.E. VA
Posts: 3,289
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 892 Post(s)
Liked: 389
Quote:
Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post
Lo-VHF Band Folded Dipoles need to be FAT, e.g. 1/2-in Copper Tubing to cover Ch3-6 and Ch2-6 (although SWR is still a bit High)....and AWG24 Twin-Lead only has acceptable SWR across ONE Channel, which rules out one spanning both Ch2 and Ch4....which would likely require at least AWG12/10 (based on Ch6 AWG10 results):

Yes, he needs large diameter conductors to cover CH2 to CH4. I tried to talk him into at least 14 gauge wire, but he wants to try a PET10-8110 FM Dipole that has 30 gauge wire.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclist44
Earlier post mentioned a FM Dipole Indoor Antenna. I found this one on Amazon it is 72 inches wide and 60 inches high. It looks similar to what rabbit73 built. Here is the link:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000EIOQBM
I have purchased the above antenna from amazon Canada. It has been shipped but I have not received it yet. I will be happy with channel 2 and 4. We have been getting a lot of rain lately and my Bell Satellite dish has been going down a lot lately.
The description on Amazon (and Walmart) is not correct. Amazon says:
Quote:
5-Ft Center Lead With 6-Ft Span
but it is really about 5 ft wide with a 6 ft downlead.







Half of the dipole is 29"; the dipole is 58" wide

Width in inches = 5540/freq in MHZ
so
freq in MHz = 5540/Width in inches

5540/58 = 95.5 MHz

The FM band is 88 to 108 MHz, so the PET10-8110 antenna is cut for the center of the FM band.

I measured the DC resistance of the antenna, because it is a continuous loop of wire. It measured 7.8 ohms with my Fluke 115 DMM. The resistance is higher than expected because they used very thin wire.

You still need to try it to see if it will work for you on CH2 and CH4. It might even work on CH9; my 88" 14 gauge folded dipole worked on 7 and 13.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	PET10-8110.jpg
Views:	225
Size:	81.1 KB
ID:	2469208   Click image for larger version

Name:	PET10-8110Half.jpg
Views:	228
Size:	106.5 KB
ID:	2469210   Click image for larger version

Name:	PET10-8110Downlead.jpg
Views:	226
Size:	97.6 KB
ID:	2469212  

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
Lord Kelvin, 1883
www.megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/dttpoorman.html

Last edited by rabbit73; 10-16-2018 at 10:13 AM.
rabbit73 is online now  
post #17423 of 17920 Old 10-16-2018, 10:56 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
rabbit73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: S.E. VA
Posts: 3,289
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 892 Post(s)
Liked: 389
I made some measurements to compare the gain of my channel 3 folded dipole to the gain of the PET10-8110 FM Dipole on a channel 3 analog signal.

I don't have any VHF-Low transmitters in my area and I don't have an 8VSB modulator. I used the channel 3 output of a Channel Master 7004 converter box as a test signal and measured the strength of the video carrier with my Sadelco signal level meter.

I set up one of my channel 3 folded dipoles and connected it to the output of the 7004. Then, I setup another one of my channel 3 folded dipoles about 8 feet away and measured the strength of the received signal. It was +14 dBmV (-35 dBm).

Next, I substituted the PET10-8110 FM Dipole as the receiving antenna. The received signal measured +2.5 dBmV (-46.5 dBm).

My channel 3 folded dipole has

11.5 dB

more gain than the PET10-8110 FM Dipole on channel 3. I don't know how much difference that would make at your location as far as being able to receive 2 and 4.

I inspected the center and end connections of the PET10-8110 FM Dipole.





I don't have my micrometer with me at my present location, but I do have my digital camera. The 18 gauge wire appears to have a diameter that is 4 times the diameter of the FM dipole wire, making the FM dipole wire 30 gauge.



The solid copper wire for the PET FM Dipole is very thin and fragile. Usually, the twin lead wires of a folded dipole are twisted together and then soldered for greater strength. The wires of the PET FM Dipole were just touched together and then soldered.

Besides making the PET dipole fragile, the thin wires reduce the effective bandwidth, making it more difficult to cover from 2 to 4.

If you have any doubts about the wires in your PET FM dipole, you can check for continuity with an inexpensive ohmmeter like the Elenco M-1000 DMM.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0015126L4...lhomconvert-20

or the GB GMT-318 analog meter.
https://www.amazon.com/Gardner-Bende...lhomconvert-20

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Gardner-...kgwcaQd3WvlxU0

My PET FM Dipole measured about 8 ohms between the two terminals that connect to the balun.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	PET10-8110feedpoint.jpg
Views:	218
Size:	156.6 KB
ID:	2469270   Click image for larger version

Name:	PET10-8110twinlead.jpg
Views:	224
Size:	63.4 KB
ID:	2469272   Click image for larger version

Name:	18 vs 30_1.jpg
Views:	226
Size:	100.6 KB
ID:	2469274  

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
Lord Kelvin, 1883
www.megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/dttpoorman.html

Last edited by rabbit73; 10-16-2018 at 06:13 PM.
rabbit73 is online now  
post #17424 of 17920 Old 10-16-2018, 01:07 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tylerSC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Mauldin SC, 29607
Posts: 6,670
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1323 Post(s)
Liked: 245
Just found out if you have a house with argon glass windows, then indoor antenna reception will be blocked. Opened the window and strong reception returned. Something to be aware of.
tylerSC is online now  
post #17425 of 17920 Old 10-16-2018, 02:30 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
holl_ands's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 6,197
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 957 Post(s)
Liked: 527
You would be much better served using either $10 VHF Rabbit-Ears (fully extended, although that might not be "optimum")....or spend a few minutes stringing a DIY Folded Dipole using AWG10 "House" Electrical Wire around a length of PVC (or whatever), as I referenced earlier.

BTW: It isn't the ARGON that attenuates VHF/UHF Signals....it's the Metallic "LowE" Tinted Coating (like Car Window Tinting) that provides anywhere from 15 to 40 dB of attenuation, depending on construction details.
https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/ge...FULLTEXT01.pdf
https://www.google.com/search?client...30.XJO7bmZJKXI
http://www.vitroglazings.com/getmedi...Glass.pdf.aspx [Intentionally Very High Attenuation]
JHBrandt and Frostyboy115 like this.

Last edited by holl_ands; 10-16-2018 at 03:47 PM.
holl_ands is offline  
post #17426 of 17920 Old 10-16-2018, 03:57 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
rabbit73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: S.E. VA
Posts: 3,289
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 892 Post(s)
Liked: 389
Quote:
Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post
You would be much better served using either $10 VHF Rabbit-Ears (fully extended, although that might not be "optimum")....or spend a few minutes stringing a DIY Folded Dipole using AWG10 "House" Electrical Wire around a length of PVC (or whatever), as I referenced earlier.
I suggested extended rabbit ears and a DIY folded dipole to cyclist44; he rejected both ideas. Some people think the physical laws don't apply to them and they can take a short cut to their goal. Sometimes they can get away with it, sometimes not; then they have to deal with reality.

Quote:
BTW: It isn't the ARGON that attenuates VHF/UHF Signals....it's the Metallic "LowE" Tinted Coating (like Car Window Tinting) that provides anywhere from 15 to 40 dB of attenuation, depending on construction details.
True, the argon primarily improves the R-value for insulation.

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
Lord Kelvin, 1883
www.megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/dttpoorman.html

Last edited by rabbit73; 10-16-2018 at 06:35 PM.
rabbit73 is online now  
post #17427 of 17920 Old 10-16-2018, 04:37 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ProjectSHO89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,282
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 336 Post(s)
Liked: 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerSC View Post
Just found out if you have a house with argon glass windows, then indoor antenna reception will be blocked. Opened the window and strong reception returned. Something to be aware of.
It's not the argon gas causing the issue, it's the low-E coating on the glass with which argon is often paired for energy efficiency improvements.


Edit: Lol, that's what I get for replying before reading towards the end of the thread!
ProjectSHO89 is offline  
post #17428 of 17920 Old 10-16-2018, 05:13 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
rabbit73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: S.E. VA
Posts: 3,289
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 892 Post(s)
Liked: 389
It happens to all of us.

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
Lord Kelvin, 1883
www.megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/dttpoorman.html
rabbit73 is online now  
post #17429 of 17920 Old 10-16-2018, 05:14 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
rabbit73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: S.E. VA
Posts: 3,289
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 892 Post(s)
Liked: 389
Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerSC View Post
Just found out if you have a house with argon glass windows, then indoor antenna reception will be blocked. Opened the window and strong reception returned. Something to be aware of.
Thank you for the reminder of a problem that will become more common.


My first encounter with low-E glass and TV signals was in this thread
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...y-antenna.html

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
Lord Kelvin, 1883
www.megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/dttpoorman.html

Last edited by rabbit73; 10-16-2018 at 06:36 PM.
rabbit73 is online now  
post #17430 of 17920 Old 10-17-2018, 06:05 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Sofia/Bulgaria
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Intheswamp View Post
Well, I was only relaying what others have shared about turning the two panels in different directions...basically mixed reports of "it worked" and "it didn't work". Each location will be different. Your location may work fine. I'm not saying not to do it...I like tinkering.<grin> I also like ADTech's recommendation of two of the 2-bays...but I can't find them on the AD website. Your rabbitears report looks good. A 4-bay for the longer distance transmitters and a 2-bay for the nearer transmitters might be an option. Or, just start out with a single 2-bay and see how it performs when aimed in different directions...if it receives the distant stations good then two 2-bays are probably all you need. If it doesn't peform well for the distant stations but does the nearer stations then try a 4-bay for the more distant ones. Just throwing some options out to you. I wouldn't add a VHF dipole until I knew I needed one.

You'll probably be getting some feedback from some of the experts soon, but I think your in a a definitely doable situation!! And, yeah, when all the transmitters are sitting on a hill in one location overlooking you life can be good.
From experience I know that receiving a signal from two different transmitters is best with two highly focused antennas. I'm currently using an antenna Televes - DAT 790 LR and another one made by me for 482 mhz and amplifier - TGN ULNA 3036. I receiving signals from two distant transmitters of about 75 miles (+local programs), located 60 degrees from my location - Sofia, Bulgaria. Mixing the two antenna I made with this - http: //teroz.cz/produkt/c-211-k-1-x-y-69/
In principle, more antennas can be mixed as long as there is no overlap on the same channels.


best regards - dxing.org
rabbit73 likes this.
NRadkov is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply HDTV Technical

Tags
Channel Master Cm 4228 8 Bay Hdtv Uhf Antenna Cm4228hd

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off