The Official AVS Antenna and Related Hardware Topic! - Page 584 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #17491 of 17908 Old 11-07-2018, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeatChicken View Post
It looks like the leads section of that balun "unscrews" .. perhaps with some sort of internal quick-release connector for quick replacement ( .. 50 years later when needed ) ....
Yes, that is exactly what it is. It's also yet another connection that might give you trouble; not as reliable as a soldered connection. I'm thinking of the fork connections in the CB-8269 balun housing for the Winegard antennas. But, a replacement connector with wires is probably less expensive than a new balun.





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Last edited by rabbit73; 11-07-2018 at 07:41 PM.
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post #17492 of 17908 Old 11-28-2018, 06:09 AM
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Hello!

OK, so I can't believe you guys are all still here, but I am happy that you are! I have an issue and I am hoping you can help.

If any of you remember me, I set up my antennas nearly a decade ago and have had no issues. I run a pair of Funke VHF antennas to pick up channel 11 out of Green Bay, WI and also channels 7 and 9 out of Wausau, WI. I use a channel 11 Jointenna to combine them.

I also have a XG91 for the Green Bay UHF stations combined with a small 16-19 specialty antenna and a full range Winegard. The Winegard is attic mounted and utilizes a channel 31 Jointenna that was used for the old Fox station in Wittenberg, WI and the specialty antenna is mast mounted and was used with a channel 16 jointenna to pick up NBC in Rhinelander, WI.


Everything worked flawlessly as the pair of VHF antennas were combined and inputted to the VHF side of the old CM7777. The XG91 and the specialty antenna are combined with the channel 16 jointenna and inputted to the UHF side of the 7777. Once in the house the coax is joined with the channel 31 Jointenna to the attic mounted and preamplified antenna. Everything is distributed via an equal leg 3 way splitter. I have Tivo OTAs for each TV that gives me a full EPG, dvr controls and streaming apps to each location.


Now comes the newest repack. Channel 11 is moving to channel 12. Part of me thinks that I should look into having my Jointenna retuned. Is this easy? Can one of you accomplish this? Do I need to do it? Part two...My channel 31 Jointenna has been doing a great job with channel 33 since channel 31 went dark. Perhaps it was mistuned to start with, or perhaps the filter is just that wide. I don't know. Perhaps they could both be fine tuned?


I no longer use the channel 16 Jointenna or antenna, but it is still in the signal stream. With the repack, Channel 46 (ION) out of Wittenberg/ Wausau has moved to channel 19 and I periodically receive it. I am considering using the specialty antenna and a Jointenna to get this channel better. I could either get the channel 16 Jointenna retuned or I could purchase one of the remaining channel 19 jointennas from Warren.


Are any of you capable of retuning these, or is there a plcae I could send them to have them retuned?


Thanks!


Bill


By the way, it is good to see that you all are well.
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post #17493 of 17908 Old 11-28-2018, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willscary View Post

I run a pair of Funke VHF antennas to pick up channel 11 out of Green Bay, WI and also channels 7 and 9 out of Wausau, WI. I use a channel 11 Jointenna to combine them.

Now comes the newest repack. Channel 11 is moving to channel 12. Part of me thinks that I should look into having my Jointenna retuned. Is this easy? Can one of you accomplish this? Do I need to do it? Part two...My channel 31 Jointenna has been doing a great job with channel 33 since channel 31 went dark. Perhaps it was mistuned to start with, or perhaps the filter is just that wide. I don't know. Perhaps they could both be fine tuned?

I no longer use the channel 16 Jointenna or antenna, but it is still in the signal stream. With the repack, Channel 46 (ION) out of Wittenberg/ Wausau has moved to channel 19 and I periodically receive it. I am considering using the specialty antenna and a Jointenna to get this channel better. I could either get the channel 16 Jointenna retuned or I could purchase one of the remaining channel 19 jointennas from Warren.

Are any of you capable of retuning these, or is there a plcae I could send them to have them retuned?
.
Your channel 16 Jointenna could be retuned, but Warren is selling them for $34 and so I doubt that anyone would retune it for much less than that. One reason that there is no retuning "industry", and in fact, one reason that no major American manufacturer or distributor even offers tunable stuff, is that the cost of dealing with the customer dissatisfaction factor when their system doesn't work as well as they'd like it to wipes out any profits they could make. I remember when Winegard jacked the price of their UT-2700 tunable notches up from about $20-something to about $70 before discontinuing them. They probably only cost a couple of dollar to make, and I think they were just dumping their inventory at a price that made it worth the customer complaints that those sales would generate.

A UHF jointenna typically passes the channel below and channel above at the low end of the UHF band, and is wider than that at the upper end, so I doubt that your channel 31 jointenna is mistuned, and it would be a waste of money paying someone to "retweak" it for you..

As for adjusting the channel 11 jointenna, most VHF jointennas I have seen did not have tuning adjustments, but I have seen a couple of older ones that had a couple of trimmers in them, but I didn't experiment with them to see what they did. It is possible that they were tunable narrow notches that could be peaked to mitigate the aural carrier of the lower adjacent channel and the visual carrier of the upper adjacent channel. The boxes and packages that my jointennas came in didn't have manufacturer dates stamped on them. I'd bet that any you buy from Warren or elsewhere are "New, old stick" and are 20 to 50 years old.

Last edited by AntAltMike; 11-28-2018 at 10:08 AM.
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post #17494 of 17908 Old 11-28-2018, 10:17 AM
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Thanks Mike! My single channel antenna is actually a Blonder Tongue model for channels 14-19, if I recall...a BT-10 model. I thought I could repurpose it from channel 16 to channel 19. Yes, I have thought about buying the channel 19 JT and I guess it is the way to go. The channel 31 JT is working for channel 33, so I guess if it ain't broke...

So the channel 11 JT won't work for channel 12 and I am SOL? I wonder what the interference will be like if I join the antennas using just a normal combiner. One points to 90 degrees magnetic and the other points to 327 degrees magnetic. The 90 degree station is 37 miles away over a tall-tree hill that is a few hundred yards away and the other points to stations that are about 70 miles away but at antenna height I can see over 10 miles in that direction.
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post #17495 of 17908 Old 11-28-2018, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willscary View Post

So the channel 11 JT won't work for channel 12 and I am SOL? .

I'd expect the channel 11 jointennas to work OK on channel 12 with digital signals. With analog signals, its lack of "flatness across the channel" if used for channel 12 might degrade the video a little, but broadcast digital ATSC can "take a lickin' and keep on tickin' ", so it will probably work OK for you.
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post #17496 of 17908 Old 11-28-2018, 10:48 AM
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Thanks again Mike!
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post #17497 of 17908 Old 12-21-2018, 04:29 AM
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Power Pass and DC Block question

Two simple questions: I'm getting ready to install a splitter like this (https://www.bestbuy.com/site/rocketf...?skuId=6651202) -- power passing on both ports -- to split a signal from an antenna to two TVs. Because of physical location problems, I need to have the antenna preamp's power supply close to TV number one. I will insert a DC Block between the splitter and TV number two. So:

1. Do I have this right?

and

2. If I do, is it also true that a bunch of unsuspecting customers install that splitter from Best Buy in similar situations, don't put on the DC Block, and fry their equipment?

(Crude diagram below)

Antenna
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|
Preamp
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+--Splitter-->--DC Block-->--TV2
|
|
Preamp Power Supply
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|
TV1
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post #17498 of 17908 Old 12-21-2018, 11:58 AM
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There is no need to use a DC block on that splitter, the power passing function is diode-steered so it automatically blocks power from getting to the "wrong" port.


The probability that any Best Buy customer "fried" anything due to this splitter is pretty low unless they happened to get one that was defective (or used it incorrectly).


One thing to note is that if you're using a USB-powered amp, you're going to knock about .6 to .7 of a volt off your supply voltage to the amp. Depending on the amps' power requirements, this may cause issues.

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post #17499 of 17908 Old 12-21-2018, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADTech View Post
There is no need to use a DC block on that splitter, the power passing function is diode-steered so it automatically blocks power from getting to the "wrong" port.


The probability that any Best Buy customer "fried" anything due to this splitter is pretty low unless they happened to get one that was defective (or used it incorrectly).


One thing to note is that if you're using a USB-powered amp, you're going to knock about .6 to .7 of a volt off your supply voltage to the amp. Depending on the amps' power requirements, this may cause issues.
There is no need to use a DC block on that splitter, the power passing function is diode-steered so it automatically blocks power from getting to the "wrong" port.

Ah, good to know. I did the setup today and it worked quite well. I think it was mainly because with the new splitter in position I was able to substitute a short RG6 run for what had been a longer RG59 run.

Everything worked so well that I'm reluctant to change anything . . . I assume that the DC Block won't weaken the signal on that leg?

And, for now the preamp is a classic CM 7777 with old-fashioned power supply, but I'll keep that USB point in mind when the CM 7777 needs replacement -- not soon, I hope.
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post #17500 of 17908 Old 12-22-2018, 05:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildwillie6 View Post
Everything worked so well that I'm reluctant to change anything . . . I assume that the DC Block won't weaken the signal on that leg?
Even if you used the DC block for TV2, it wouldn't do any more harm than the DC block (C2 series capacitor that blocks DC and passes RF signals) that is built in the CM 0747 power supply/power inserter for TV1.



Quote:
And, for now the preamp is a classic CM 7777 with old-fashioned power supply, but I'll keep that USB point in mind when the CM 7777 needs replacement -- not soon, I hope.
The original CM 7777 is my favorite preamp.





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post #17501 of 17908 Old 01-17-2019, 01:23 AM
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Disappointing to see Home Depot no longer carries Winegard LNA200 preamp. Only RCA inline amp. With most Radioshacks closed down, you would think they would keep a good antenna preamplifier. At least Lowe's still has the RCA preamp.
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post #17502 of 17908 Old 01-21-2019, 03:06 PM
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Indoor antenna question.
I now receive vhf 3 from 50 miles thru trees and buildings with a large ch 3 specific antenna on the roof - reception great - occasional break ups when windy or stormy. Four bay in attic for uhf - all good- tvfool said indoor ant should work.

I am moving to retirement apartment - can be indoor only - tvfool just as good and I will 30 feet higher - no trees - no buildings - windows directly facing source 45 miles.

probably any indoor will receive all uhf stations - what indoor antenna might also work with ch 3 (PBS favorite station)
I believe two uhf channels will also move to 7 and 13 later this year.

I would like to avoiding -buying -trying -returning on line purchases - your guidence will at least start me with something that has a chance.
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post #17503 of 17908 Old 01-21-2019, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernieoc View Post
Indoor antenna question.
I now receive vhf 3 from 50 miles thru trees and buildings with a large ch 3 specific antenna on the roof - reception great - occasional break ups when windy or stormy. Four bay in attic for uhf - all good- tvfool said indoor ant should work.

I am moving to retirement apartment - can be indoor only - tvfool just as good and I will 30 feet higher - no trees - no buildings - windows directly facing source 45 miles.

probably any indoor will receive all uhf stations - what indoor antenna might also work with ch 3 (PBS favorite station)
I believe two uhf channels will also move to 7 and 13 later this year.

I would like to avoiding -buying -trying -returning on line purchases - your guidence will at least start me with something that has a chance.

No trees, no buildings and a window facing the right direction is the good news. The bad news is low VHF indoors is tough. There's not much to try besides the old fashioned rabbit ears that you can pull out to a length required for RF 3 - about 89". Then you'll have to move it around to see if there's a place where it will work.

I'm curious as to what station is this? It's unusual to be stuck with low VHF for a major network station.
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post #17504 of 17908 Old 01-21-2019, 04:34 PM
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WBRA Roanoke VA - Blue Ridge PBS CH 3 we also have ABC Lynchburg ch 13 going ch 7
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post #17505 of 17908 Old 01-21-2019, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernieoc View Post
WBRA Roanoke VA - Blue Ridge PBS CH 3 we also have ABC Lynchburg ch 13 going ch 7

13 to 7 shouldn't be any more difficult because both are high VHF but high VHF is more difficult than UHF indoors. I have some experience comparing outdoor and indoor antennas and low VHF suffered the most indoors. It's not just that the signal is much weaker but the manmade noise is so much worse indoors.

Good luck.
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post #17506 of 17908 Old 01-21-2019, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernieoc View Post
Indoor antenna question.

I am moving to retirement apartment - can be indoor only - tvfool just as good and I will 30 feet higher - no trees - no buildings - windows directly facing source 45 miles.

what indoor antenna might also work with ch 3 (PBS favorite station)

I would like to avoiding -buying -trying -returning on line purchases - your guidence will at least start me with something that has a chance.
Hello, bernieoc. I also must use an indoor antenna.

What does your TVFool signal report look like for that location?

As Calaveras indicated, the CH3 antenna will be long for that frequency to be efficient, and the ambient noise level where the antenna is located must not be too high.

If you want to test a ready made antenna for VHF-Low, consider the Winegard HD7000R.
https://www.amazon.com/Winegard-Comp.../dp/B001TIQ6SW

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Winegard-...7000r/19410172

I have done some experiments with a DIY folded dipole. I measured the indoor noise level and calculated how strong the signal would need to be for reception at my location. As you can see, a CH3 signal would need to be much stronger than for CH 7-13 because of the higher noise level on VHF-Low.



If you don't have any way to measure the noise level at your location as I do, you must make some tests with a CH3 antenna to see if it will work. This is the DIY CH3 folded dipole I built:





It uses 14 gauge solid copper insulated building wire from Home Depot, yardsticks, and masking tape.



More details here:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...l#post56930992

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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post #17507 of 17908 Old 01-22-2019, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernieoc View Post
WBRA Roanoke VA - Blue Ridge PBS CH 3 we also have ABC Lynchburg ch 13 going ch 7
Are there no alternative PBS stations receivable in your area, already in the UHF band?
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post #17508 of 17908 Old 01-22-2019, 03:11 PM
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I never had any love for the LNA200.

I prefer the Channel Master (vintage) 7777 and the Winegard AP2880 and the AP-2870.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerSC View Post
Disappointing to see Home Depot no longer carries Winegard LNA200 preamp. Only RCA inline amp. With most Radioshacks closed down, you would think they would keep a good antenna preamplifier. At least Lowe's still has the RCA preamp.
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post #17509 of 17908 Old 01-22-2019, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Primestar31 View Post
Are there no alternative PBS stations receivable in your area, already in the UHF band?
I asked bernieoc for a signal report, but he didn't give it. I did find some background information:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bernieoc View Post
Channel 3
Question - I am moving to retirement appartment (I am 84) with big windows facing the tower site at same distance as now. I think I will have no problem with U channels with simple indoor antenna. What about CH 3? What can I try indoor at window or outside that can not be seen. TVFOOL has CH 3 in green.

Cable is available - but I have been using DTV PAL DVR and DVR+ from their day 1 availability - going back to cable would be painful.
Thanks for any advice
Quote:
Originally Posted by bernieoc View Post
Antenna question
I receive all Roanoke and Bedford OTA in Altavista with a 4 bay in the attic and a big ch 3 antenna on the roof - 50 miles thru trees and houses - great reception on all (ch 3 sensitive to interference).

We will move to Summit retirement apartment in Lynchburg - up high - clear west view to both Bedford and Roanoke - 4 degrees apart 52 mi. Roanoke - Bedford much closer.

Will be limited to indoor antenna - should not be a problem - TVFOOL shows all good with indoor antenna.

Question -suggest any indoor antenna that might pick up VHF ch 3 and 13 ? Buying and returninng antennas not very practical. I assume ch 3 is a problem for all OTA folks.
This is a TVFool report for Summit Retirement. WBRA is not in the green at the default height.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9038a6f6547bff
25ft NM 34.8 dB 1Edge
50ft 36.7 dB 1Edge green
75ft 38.5 dB 1Edge
100ft 46.6 dB LOS



A report from rabbitears.info has a more accurate list of channels because TVFool is using a defective database to generate reports:



There is a hill in the WBRA signal path just before your location:



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post #17510 of 17908 Old 01-22-2019, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
I asked bernieoc for a signal report, but he didn't give it. I did find some background information:




This is a TVFool report for Summit Retirement. WBRA is not in the green at the default height.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9038a6f6547bff
That TvFool report is just nasty, IMO.
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post #17511 of 17908 Old 01-22-2019, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Primestar31 View Post
That TvFool report is just nasty, IMO.
One advantage of VHF-Low is that it can make it over rough terrain better than VHF-High and UHF.

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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post #17512 of 17908 Old 01-22-2019, 07:27 PM
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One advantage of VHF-Low is that it can make it over rough terrain better than VHF-High and UHF.
Yeah, but it can't get indoors once it arrives. Even if some of it does, it will get drowned out by all the indoor noise.
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post #17513 of 17908 Old 01-22-2019, 07:42 PM
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You are right about the noise problem, but the VHF building penetration loss at my location is less than I expected it to be.

I'm wondering about the building penetration loss for bernieoc at his new location. He will just have to try a WBRA reception test.

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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post #17514 of 17908 Old 01-22-2019, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
This is a TVFool report for Summit Retirement. WBRA is not in the green at the default height.

There is a hill in the WBRA signal path just before your location:
Wait - don't forget this part:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bernieoc View Post
I am moving to retirement apartment - can be indoor only - tvfool just as good and I will 30 feet higher - no trees - no buildings - windows directly facing source 45 miles.
Sounds to me like bernieoc will be in a 4th-story apartment. You might want to rerun the TVFool / RabbitEars reports at 35 feet. That hill may not be as much of a problem as it seems.
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post #17515 of 17908 Old 01-23-2019, 01:06 AM
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I've been surprised at how well the signals get through on Low-VHF. We have low power stations on channels 2, 3 and 4 here in the SF Bay Area. 3 and 4 are just 14 miles away and they boom in here. What surprises me, though, is KQRO on channel 2. It's 15 kW transmitter is 56 miles away and it comes in here solid on my Winegard U-8200.

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post #17516 of 17908 Old 01-23-2019, 04:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post
Wait - don't forget this part:
Sounds to me like bernieoc will be in a 4th-story apartment. You might want to rerun the TVFool / RabbitEars reports at 35 feet. That hill may not be as much of a problem as it seems.
After running a report at the default height, I used the TVFool Interactive Map to see the affect of different heights for the WBRA signal:

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
I asked bernieoc for a signal report, but he didn't give it. I did find some background information:

This is a TVFool report for Summit Retirement. WBRA is not in the green at the default height.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9038a6f6547bf f

25ft NM 34.8 dB 1Edge

50ft 36.7 dB 1Edge green

75ft 38.5 dB 1Edge

100ft 46.6 dB LOS
I used 25ft for the rabbitears.info report. The FCC TV Study software used for those reports is a little less accurate for location than the TVFool software; about to the nearest 0.5 km. The TVFool software, about 1 or 2 football fields.

He is still going need to make a real-world test, because the building penetration loss is an unknown factor, and the TVFool report software doesn't include the affect of ground clutter. The WBRA signal grazes the surface just before his location.

Is that sufficient?
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post #17517 of 17908 Old 01-23-2019, 06:20 AM
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There is a balcony almost perpendicular to source - antenna not allowed - but ch 3 dipole as described (or rabbit ears) could be almost invisable - would need to get signal inside - balcony has glass panels tight shutting doors.

Thank you for clarifying the reception info. I am not clear on how to post the info - the immediate terrain on the Summit west's is actually lower than 1st floor - elevations could be 30/40/50/feet - the entire rear facing is well above a parking area and a lake with a wooded hilly view beyond.

It is clear I will have to try when I get there (requested upper floor) - meanwhile I will work on a DIY 88 inch almost invisible antenna.
Thank you -
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post #17518 of 17908 Old 01-23-2019, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernieoc View Post
There is a balcony almost perpendicular to source - antenna not allowed - but ch 3 dipole as described (or rabbit ears) could be almost invisable - would need to get signal inside - balcony has glass panels tight shutting doors.
If you find that inside the window doesn't work, you will have to try outside. If the door is tight shutting, you can't use a flat 75ohm jumper. There is a way to get a 300 ohm signal through glass, with two disks on each side of the glass. The glass between the outside and inside disks acts as a coupling capacitor.
Quote:
Thank you for clarifying the reception info. I am not clear on how to post the info - the immediate terrain on the Summit west's is actually lower than 1st floor - elevations could be 30/40/50/feet - the entire rear facing is well above a parking area and a lake with a wooded hilly view beyond.





Quote:
It is clear I will have to try when I get there (requested upper floor) - meanwhile I will work on a DIY 88 inch almost invisible antenna.
Good



https://www.mfjenterprises.com/Produ...tid=MFJ-18T050

Support antenna away from metal objects.

Attic antenna?

cyclist44 in Canada tried to use an FM folded dipole for CH 2 and 4, but it didn't work. My measurements show that it gives signals that are about 10 dB too weak; the antenna isn't long enough for those channels.

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post #17519 of 17908 Old 01-23-2019, 12:51 PM
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bernieoc, another thing to think about ... if that is a newer building, E-glass glazing is a potential problem. The thin metallic films wreak havoc with RF transmission. Have you tried anything from the building? Foil backed sheathing ... ???
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post #17520 of 17908 Old 01-23-2019, 01:02 PM
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Yup, low-e glass will block TV signals.

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