The Official AVS Antenna and Related Hardware Topic! - Page 590 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #17671 of 17921 Old 07-15-2019, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve347 View Post
Here are the photos of the insides of the Clearstream 4Max... Not much to it. Also got their design patents for those interested.
Thanks for the photos, Steve. I always want to see what is inside.


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post #17672 of 17921 Old 07-15-2019, 06:47 AM
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That clearstream 4 is overpriced for the gain it offers... You would be better off with two of these... https://www.amazon.com/RCA-Compact-O...gateway&sr=8-3


pointing in each direction with a splitter in reverse to combine them IMO, since you are trying to receive WUNC and I assume WUVC, which back in the day used to be "Counterfource 40", WKFT an independent channel that aired a lot of good stuff. Now it has GetTV I believe which is a good channel.
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post #17673 of 17921 Old 07-15-2019, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
That is to be expected for a house surrounded by trees.
Keep the 4MAX for now and add a Stellar Labs 30-2475 (or 2476).
https://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/...vhf/dp/48Y8141
https://store.antennasdirect.com/UHF...Combiners.html
Yes, please

Your report for reference:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9038e7b1b55e49

https://www.rabbitears.info/market.p...&callsign=WRAL

Repack Plan:
https://www.rabbitears.info/repackch...=&lss=&status=



Local FM transmitters might still be a problem for reception of VHF TV channels:

http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/3...0/Radar-FM.png
Thanks for the feedback. The 4Max is going back under the Best Buy 14 day return policy since it performs worse than what I already have.
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post #17674 of 17921 Old 07-15-2019, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve347 View Post
Thanks for the feedback. The 4Max is going back under the Best Buy 14 day return policy since it performs worse than what I already have.
Worse on UHF, VHF, or both? Your present 8200 antenna isn't bi-directional, is it?
I'm confused; I thought you said the CS4MAX was OK for UHF.

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It seemed to do respectable on UHF but has dropout issues on VHF. The signal meter on VHF jumps around from 50-60% to 80-90% when the wind blows causing the dropouts. I didn't get a chance to test it out in any rain as it has been quite dry here lately.

So this one won't cut it due to the VHF performance. So it looks like I am going to be needing a multi-bay loop or bow tie antenna for UHF and then a real high VHF antenna for Ch 11 now and 8 & 9 after the repack.

So can anyone recommend good separate antennas for each of these two bands? Keep in mind that the UHF has to be open (no reflector) to allow pickup from both sides as PBS is opposite the other network transmitters.
What bi-directional UHF antenna are you planning to buy instead of the CS4MAX?

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post #17675 of 17921 Old 07-15-2019, 08:02 AM
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Some pics of my Fracarro LP345 antenna. I like this style of compact UHF/HI VHF antenna with integrated balun. Seems good at low uhf. Was able to get a channel 14 my other antennas never picked up. About 45 3/4" long and 34" at the widest elements. Elements are pretty soft, an eagle landing on it would bend the long ones.
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post #17676 of 17921 Old 07-15-2019, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Worse on UHF, VHF, or both? Your present antenna isn't bi-directional, is it?
I'm confused; I thought you said the CS4MAX was OK for UHF.
It is OK for UHF but not as good as the current 8200 in a stationary position. The VHF is considerably worse. Therefore I don't see any reason to keep it.


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Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
What bi-directional UHF antenna are you planning to buy instead of the CS4MAX?
THAT is the $64,000 question! Others have suggested that instead of a single bi-directional UHF antenna to instead combine 2 separate antennas pointing different directions. One previous vote is for the RCA U/V Yagi.

Another option would be to use something like an Antennas Direct DB8E and point each half in a different direction for UHF. This would require a separate VHF antenna pointed at what should be Channels 8,9 (after repack) ,&11(before repack). I THINK these VHF channels will all be in the same antenna farm. Is there any way to confirm the transmitter locations after the repack? There seems to be some database issues with rabbit ears and TVfool is pretty useless for this area.
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post #17677 of 17921 Old 07-15-2019, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by johnny antenna View Post
Some pics of my Fracarro LP345 antenna. I like this style of compact UHF/HI VHF antenna with integrated balun. Seems good at low uhf. Was able to get a channel 14 my other antennas never picked up. About 45 3/4" long and 34" at the widest elements. Elements are pretty soft, an eagle landing on it would bend the long ones.
So what is that antenna? An LTE cell phone antenna?
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post #17678 of 17921 Old 07-15-2019, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve347 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny antenna View Post
Some pics of my Fracarro LP345 antenna. I like this style of compact UHF/HI VHF antenna with integrated balun. Seems good at low uhf. Was able to get a channel 14 my other antennas never picked up. About 45 3/4" long and 34" at the widest elements. Elements are pretty soft, an eagle landing on it would bend the long ones. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
So what is that antenna? An LTE cell phone antenna?
Regular OTA TV antenna. May have LTE filter? Not sure. I'm not recommending this antenna for you btw.
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post #17679 of 17921 Old 07-15-2019, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by johnny antenna View Post
Some pics of my Fracarro LP345 antenna. I like this style of compact UHF/HI VHF antenna with integrated balun. Seems good at low uhf. Was able to get a channel 14 my other antennas never picked up. About 45 3/4" long and 34" at the widest elements. Elements are pretty soft, an eagle landing on it would bend the long ones.
I have an Ability LP-345F and it works well. It doesn't have the gain of my HD8200U, but does a good job for stations up to about 45 miles away.

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post #17680 of 17921 Old 07-15-2019, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny antenna View Post
Some pics of my Fracarro LP345 antenna. I like this style of compact UHF/HI VHF antenna with integrated balun. Seems good at low uhf. Was able to get a channel 14 my other antennas never picked up. About 45 3/4" long and 34" at the widest elements. Elements are pretty soft, an eagle landing on it would bend the long ones. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
I have an Ability LP-345F and it works well. It doesn't have the gain of my HD8200U, but does a good job for stations up to about 45 miles away.

Larry
That's been my experience too. I would never recommend it for 50+ miles. It's probably between a RCA ANT751 and a Winegard 7694. Cool antenna for mid range UHF and VHF.
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post #17681 of 17921 Old 07-15-2019, 03:36 PM
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Pros & Cons Of Combining Antennas For Directionality?

By this I am referring to identical antennas which obviously cover the same frequency ranges.

Pros -

1. can pickup stations from different directions.

Cons -

1. 3+dB loss per antenna due to the splitter/combiner? I am assuming using a regular splitter.

2. Phasing issues? I am assuming that this could be mitigated by using identical feed lines to the combiner?

3. Pattern effects? What does this do to the individual/combined pattern? I am assuming that this may work well at or near 180 degrees (opposite directions). At what smaller angle would this become more of a detrimental issue?

4. Is there or would there be an optimum vertical spacing depending on the horizontal angle between the antennas
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post #17682 of 17921 Old 07-15-2019, 03:38 PM
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Well, to continue the saga... I went and purchased a 4Max at Best by for $129 on sale. I installed it on the same mast as the 8200 but about 3 feet lower. It is aimed at 123 degrees magnetic which is the same as the 8200.

It seemed to do respectable on UHF but has dropout issues on VHF. The signal meter on VHF jumps around from 50-60% to 80-90% when the wind blows causing the dropouts. I didn't get a chance to test it out in any rain as it has been quite dry here lately.

So this one won't cut it due to the VHF performance. So it looks like I am going to be needing a multi-bay loop or bow tie antenna for UHF and then a real high VHF antenna for Ch 11 now and 8 & 9 after the repack.

So can anyone recommend good separate antennas for each of these two bands? Keep in mind that the UHF has to be open (no reflector) to allow pickup from both sides as PBS is opposite the other network transmitters.

Secondary question is where can I get a good UVSJ that is required to combine both antennas? It appears that these have all but gone extinct.

BTW, I took some photos of the innards of the 4Max if any of you are interested just let me know.
If you only need high gain bidirectional UHF reception, the DB8E is custom made for that situation.
.....
For vhf only bidirectional 2 stellar labs vhf yagis on a combiner.
......
If you need bidirectional vhf and uhf then two Winegard 7694s on a combiner would be hard to beat.
.....

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post #17683 of 17921 Old 07-15-2019, 03:47 PM
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Regular OTA TV antenna. May have LTE filter? Not sure.
I had never seen or heard of the manufacturer and saw the "LTE" stamped on the boom hence my question. I then found the manufacturer, a data sheet and a source:

https://www.summitsource.com/Fracarr...ax-P14185.aspx

Can't load the data sheet as it is too large. You'll have to ask Google! Looks like they have LOTS of antenna options. Don't know how many are available stateside though.

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I'm not recommending this antenna for you btw.
Well... I am now considering a directional array and two of these might be candidates.
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post #17684 of 17921 Old 07-15-2019, 04:34 PM
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Well... I am now considering a directional array and two of these might be candidates.

Have you considered using 2 HDHomerun tuners? My solution would be a Winegard 7694 pointed to Raleigh and any UHF antenna of your choice pointed to Greensboro. Each antenna would feed into it's own HDHomerun tuner. More expensive this way but it's a cleaner install without combining antennas.
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post #17685 of 17921 Old 07-15-2019, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by johnny antenna View Post
Have you considered using 2 HDHomerun tuners? My solution would be a Winegard 7694 pointed to Raleigh and any UHF antenna of your choice pointed to Greensboro. Each antenna would feed into it's own HDHomerun tuner. More expensive this way but it's a cleaner install without combining antennas.

This approach is routinely mentioned by myself and others but generally scares away those who have no idea how to configure a computer network, nor do they realize their smart TV likely can play the tuner streams directly without even involving a computer. Not to mention the bonus of playing TV on any other connected device in house like a tablet, phone or laptop.



Yes, I know, it isn't nearly as hard to do as it might sound. But as soon as you say the word "network" 80% of the population's eyes glaze over. Maybe we should say "wifi" instead, somehow seems to not be nearly as scary
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post #17686 of 17921 Old 07-15-2019, 05:42 PM
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This approach is routinely mentioned by myself and others but generally scares away those who have no idea how to configure a computer network, nor do they realize their smart TV likely can play the tuner streams directly without even involving a computer. Not to mention the bonus of playing TV on any other connected device in house like a tablet, phone or laptop.



Yes, I know, it isn't nearly as hard to do as it might sound. But as soon as you say the word "network" 80% of the population's eyes glaze over. Maybe we should say "wifi" instead, somehow seems to not be nearly as scary



A HDHomerun can even operate without an internet connection. All is needed is a router and a phone or tablet with a browser to run the initial scan.

My neighbor was blown away when I was sitting on his couch and could watch TV on my phone from my antenna.
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post #17687 of 17921 Old 07-16-2019, 09:14 AM
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I have been using a compromise fixed location but now that the repack is happening this is no longer working. Most of my desired stations are either ESE or WNW.
Most of your UHF channels are at about 114 deg, but the UHF you want from the WNW is WUNC moving from 25 to 20 at 286 deg; is that correct?
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.p...&callsign=WUNC
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The repack is removing 11 and adding 8 & 9 on high VHF. which may be an issue for the 4max and its reduced gain.
Callsigns, please. Is that WTVD ABC at 116 deg moving from 11 to 9 during Repack Phase 9? And is that WNCN CBS at 114 deg moving from 17 to 8 during Repack Phase 5?

https://www.rabbitears.info/repackch...=&lss=&status=

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I THINK these VHF channels will all be in the same antenna farm. Is there any way to confirm the transmitter locations after the repack? There seems to be some database issues with rabbit ears and TVfool is pretty useless for this area.
It looks like they will be staying at their same transmitter sites in Garner NC:

https://www.rabbitears.info/tvq.php?...ems&facid=8617

https://www.rabbitears.info/tvq.php?...ms&facid=50782

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post #17688 of 17921 Old 07-16-2019, 11:53 AM
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Antenna recommendations, Atlanta zip 30268

Atlanta area, zip 30268, sw of Atlanta. TV Fool image attached. Moving from a nearby location where an attic-mounted Clearstream 4, with the VHF add-on, with juice amplifier, did well on the UHF channels 30 miles away [WSB, WAGA, WXIA, WAGA], but was a bit inconsistent on the VHF Hi public tv channel [WGTV]. On the TVFool chart, I'm looking to capture channels down to WGTV [8.1] and maybe Ted Turner's old WTBS. I'm looking to do better, preferably with an attic mount, though a roof mount aimed to the NE is a possibility. Given this array of channels, any suggestions?
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post #17689 of 17921 Old 07-16-2019, 01:22 PM
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Atlanta area, zip 30268, sw of Atlanta. TV Fool image attached. Moving from a nearby location where an attic-mounted Clearstream 4, with the VHF add-on, with juice amplifier, did well on the UHF channels 30 miles away [WSB, WAGA, WXIA, WAGA], but was a bit inconsistent on the VHF Hi public tv channel [WGTV]. On the TVFool chart, I'm looking to capture channels down to WGTV [8.1] and maybe Ted Turner's old WTBS. I'm looking to do better, preferably with an attic mount, though a roof mount aimed to the NE is a possibility. Given this array of channels, any suggestions?

You could either add a separate VHF-HI antenna or choose another combo antenna. Newark has 2 models of affordable VHF-HI specific antennas, 30-2475 and 30-2476, the latter being larger. You can join the VHF-HI antenna with UHF antenna of your choice with a joiner like a Radio Shack 15-2586. If you want a combo antenna, a Winegard 7694 would be a step up from what you have. Separate antennas would give the best chance for getting WGTV.
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post #17690 of 17921 Old 07-16-2019, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by RxDiesel View Post
Atlanta area, zip 30268, sw of Atlanta. TV Fool image attached. Moving from a nearby location where an attic-mounted Clearstream 4, with the VHF add-on, with juice amplifier, did well on the UHF channels 30 miles away [WSB, WAGA, WXIA, WAGA], but was a bit inconsistent on the VHF Hi public tv channel [WGTV]. On the TVFool chart, I'm looking to capture channels down to WGTV [8.1] and maybe Ted Turner's old WTBS. I'm looking to do better, preferably with an attic mount, though a roof mount aimed to the NE is a possibility. Given this array of channels, any suggestions?
Which station do you mean by Ted Turner's old WTBS? The old WTBS once owned by Turner is now WPCH-TV. The WTBS-LD is a low power broadcaster carrying Estrella, BizTV, Jewelry TV and France 24 and is not the same station once owned by Turner.

I agree with johnny antenna, if you're going after WGTV on VHF, then a separate high gain VHF antenna such as the STELLAR LABS 30-2476 combined with a UHF antenna would be the way to go. Stellar Labs has the 33-2230 UHF/VHF combiner that is available from Newark. You are getting into some pretty weak 2 edge signals with WGTV.

Which UHF antenna you need would be a matter of exactly which UHF stations you want to receive. Some of those weaker ones between WUVG and WGTV may or may not have programming you are interested in. If you can get all the UHF stations you want with the ClearStream 4, then just combine the VHF antenna with it.
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post #17691 of 17921 Old 07-16-2019, 03:15 PM
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Which station do you mean by Ted Turner's old WTBS? The old WTBS once owned by Turner is now WPCH-TV. The WTBS-LD is a low power broadcaster carrying Estrella, BizTV, Jewelry TV and France 24 and is not the same station once owned by Turner.

I agree with johnny antenna, if you're going after WGTV on VHF, then a separate high gain VHF antenna such as the STELLAR LABS 30-2476 combined with a UHF antenna would be the way to go. Stellar Labs has the 33-2230 UHF/VHF combiner that is available from Newark. You are getting into some pretty weak 2 edge signals with WGTV.

Which UHF antenna you need would be a matter of exactly which UHF stations you want to receive. Some of those weaker ones between WUVG and WGTV may or may not have programming you are interested in. If you can get all the UHF stations you want with the ClearStream 4, then just combine the VHF antenna with it.
Thanks guys, good tips. I'm leaving the old Clearstream 4 with its VHF add-on, and preamp, for the tenants, so I'm starting fresh with this new place. And Richart, you are correct, I had not drilled down on what that TBS was [hot garbage, no thanks!]. I'll check out the Newark and Stellar options, including joiners/combiners to combine input from separate VHF/UHF antennae to feed the expected 3 HDTVs in the new place.

My bigger problem is getting reasonably priced internet to the house, on a backroad with only pre-fiber AT&T/SoBell landline phone lines to the house [no cable]. I'm having to look at the Hughes/Echostar and ViaSat options, expensive for sufficient monthly GBs [and MBPS download speed] to feed our Netflix/Amazon Prime HD video, websurfing, and email habits, The previous owners had DirectTV via a satellite dish and slow internet via the at&t landline ......
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post #17692 of 17921 Old 07-16-2019, 04:56 PM
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Pros & Cons Of Combining Antennas For Directionality?

By this I am referring to identical antennas which obviously cover the same frequency ranges.
OK
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Pros -

1. can pickup stations from different directions.
True
Quote:
Cons -

1. 3+dB loss per antenna due to the splitter/combiner? I am assuming using a regular splitter.
Not exactly true. When a 2-way splitter is used as a splitter, each output port is down 3 dB because the signal has been cut in half. To that, you must add the internal loss of the splitter, which is about 0.5 dB, which is why each output port is often marked 3.5 dB (loss).

When a splitter is used as a combiner, you are not dividing the signals in half you are combining, so you don't have the 3 dB loss. You do still have the internal loss of 0.5dB. However, since you have the same signals coming from each antenna in various strengths and phase relationships, they can help or hinder in ways that are impossible to predict giving gains or losses.

Quote:
2. Phasing issues? I am assuming that this could be mitigated by using identical feed lines to the combiner?
Identical length feed lines are required when you have identical antennas aimed in the SAME direction for additional gain. However, when the antennas are aimed in DIFFERENT directions, the feed line lengths are irrelevant because some signals will already be out of phase. That is why you must try that method of combining to see if it will work for you, which it often doesn't.

If you don't have all the signals when combined that you had when the antennas were separate, that method of combining doesn't work for your location.

Quote:
3. Pattern effects? What does this do to the individual/combined pattern? I am assuming that this may work well at or near 180 degrees (opposite directions). At what smaller angle would this become more of a detrimental issue?
Difficult to predict. According to ADTech, who works for Antennas Direct, the DB8e has the best chance of working when the panels are at right angles (90 deg apart), if not aimed in the same direction.
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4. Is there or would there be an optimum vertical spacing depending on the horizontal angle between the antennas
Probably, but the only way you are going to find it is by the empirical method (trial and error).

If I had your problem, I would aim the 8200 at 115 deg for UHF and VHF. I would add a UHF antenna aimed at 286 deg for WUNC PBS and connect it to a separate tuner (converter box), with the output of the tuner connected to the aux input of the TV.
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post #17693 of 17921 Old 07-16-2019, 06:27 PM
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Most of your UHF channels are at about 114 deg, but the UHF you want from the WNW is WUNC moving from 25 to 20 at 286 deg; is that correct?
Correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Callsigns, please. Is that WTVD ABC at 116 deg moving from 11 to 9 during Repack Phase 9? And is that WNCN CBS at 114 deg moving from 17 to 8 during Repack Phase 5
Correct x2!

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Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
It looks like they will be staying at their same transmitter sites in Garner NC:

https://www.rabbitears.info/tvq.php?...ems&facid=8617

https://www.rabbitears.info/tvq.php?...ms&facid=50782
Good to know. It means that I may just need a single VHF antenna pointed at Garner. I wouldn't think that there would be anything unique in the Greensboro market that I would want.
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post #17694 of 17921 Old 07-16-2019, 07:17 PM
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My bigger problem is getting reasonably priced internet to the house, on a backroad with only pre-fiber AT&T/SoBell landline phone lines to the house [no cable]. I'm having to look at the Hughes/Echostar and ViaSat options, expensive for sufficient monthly GBs [and MBPS download speed] to feed our Netflix/Amazon Prime HD video, websurfing, and email habits, The previous owners had DirectTV via a satellite dish and slow internet via the at&t landline ......
It can't hurt to see what kind of speed you might get out of AT&T. I have their 20 Mbps service over 40 year old copper phone lines and we can stream two services at one time without any problems. Of course it all depends on just how far you are away from their equipment. A friend of mine who had satellite internet had terrible problems with latency...so much so that he uses an unlimited 4G LTE cellular account for his internet now.
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post #17695 of 17921 Old 07-17-2019, 09:34 AM
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Difficult to predict. According to ADTech, who works for Antennas Direct, the DB8e has the best chance of working when the panels are at right angles (90 deg apart), if not aimed in the same direction. Probably, but the only way you are going to find it is by the empirical method (trial and error).
Well, this seems counter intuitive that 90 degrees would be optimum. Here is the AD description of the dB-8E

"This multi-directional antenna features patented elements and specially designed brackets which allow the two panels to turn in different directions to target widely-spaced broadcast towers. The reflector focuses the antenna's power for added range and also provides protection against multi-path interference..."

Nowhere does it list limitations (or recommendations for that matter) on the angle between each antenna.
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post #17696 of 17921 Old 07-17-2019, 10:48 AM
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Well, this seems counter intuitive that 90 degrees would be optimum. Here is the AD description of the dB-8E

"This multi-directional antenna features patented elements and specially designed brackets which allow the two panels to turn in different directions to target widely-spaced broadcast towers. The reflector focuses the antenna's power for added range and also provides protection against multi-path interference..."

Nowhere does it list limitations (or recommendations for that matter) on the angle between each antenna.
Of course it doesn't list the limitations; that description is from the marketing department. Their job is to write copy that sells antennas.

What I wrote is from ADTech who works for Antennas Direct, gives accurate advice about reception problems on three forums, and has extensive experience working with the antennas sold by Antennas Direct. I would trust the opinion given by an engineering type person over a marketing person any day; it's a matter of integrity.



I have seen the same problem with Channel Master. The equipment descriptions written by the engineers of the original Channel Master company could be trusted; the descriptions written by the present Channel Master company are not accurate and can't be trusted. For example:

https://www.channelmaster.com/Digita.../cm-4228hd.htm
Quote:
The EXTREMEtenna (CM-4228HD) is an 8-Bay, phased array, multi-directional outdoor antenna that receives high definition and digital signals from a span of 180 degrees.
Really? Well, maybe if they are strong enough. But that is nothing like the standard definition of beamwidth defined as the angle between the half-power points at 3 dB down.
Quote:
Reception Pattern: Multi-directional
On the contrary, it is VERY directional; even more directional than the 4221HD. Does this look like 180 degrees?



Looks like about 30 degrees to me.

Solid Signal is a little more realistic:
https://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=4228-hd
Quote:
.....we find it picks up signal best within a 60° directional cone (out of 360°)
The problems that you can have with the two 4-bay panels that can be set at different angles as in the DB8e, are no different than what you will have with two separate 4-bay antennas aimed in different directions. Sometimes it works; sometimes, not.

http://forum.tvfool.com/showpost.php...84&postcount=7

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Originally Posted by ADTech View Post
The DB8e is pretty much as just described. Customers have been asking us for years to include the flexibility of independent aiming of the panels so we tossed the feature in there. When the antenna gets up in the air and the panels are aimed independently, either it will work or it won't. For those customers for whom it works, everyone's happy. If it doesn't then it will be necessary to fall back to the conventional practices of rotors, A-B switches, and the like. There's nothing magical or otherwise about the combiner - it's a very good two port splitter that is about as efficient as we could produce. If it's been treated with pixie dust or otherwise has "special" characteristics that eliminate signal phasing issues, I didn't get told about that. The coaxial cable's length has been optimized for this application.
https://forum.tvfool.com/showpost.ph...4&postcount=18

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Originally Posted by ADTech View Post
.....FWIW, it's unlikely that anyone has more hands-on experience with the DB8e than I do since I personally did all the field trials and tests during its development and product launch.

This is correct. The two-panel project usually works best when 1) the two panels are nearly 90° from each other (each has a null in the other's aiming direction), 2) you can withstand the combiner loss from the combiner (which is no longer combining the signals from each panel in phase), and 3) there aren't any odd-balll reflections of a desired signal that comes in via the "wrong" panel which can cause signal cancellation. That's why I said " Don't be surprised if it doesn't work out exactly as envisioned " above. Too many variables.
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post #17697 of 17921 Old 07-17-2019, 03:56 PM
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It can't hurt to see what kind of speed you might get out of AT&T. I have their 20 Mbps service over 40 year old copper phone lines and we can stream two services at one time without any problems. Of course it all depends on just how far you are away from their equipment. A friend of mine who had satellite internet had terrible problems with latency...so much so that he uses an unlimited 4G LTE cellular account for his internet now.
Responding to 17694 - Thanks, Richart. I'll have to assess the AT&T land line performance when we get in the house. Inspecting, I got decent performance through their existing wi-fi set up, for email, minor web searches, etc. The test will be video on demand for when we seek HD video via Netflix, etc. ...
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post #17698 of 17921 Old 07-17-2019, 07:47 PM
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...
On the contrary, it is VERY directional; even more directional than the 4221HD. Does this look like 180 degrees?

...

I got very lucky, one little lobe near 90 degrees on the CM4228HD allows me to pick up some stations that are not on the main Sutro site. My antenna installer commented on that which I had discovered before. One station at about 45 degrees could not be received, now banished.

Those two little lobes might be the source of the ~ 180 degree.

SHF
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post #17699 of 17921 Old 07-17-2019, 08:15 PM
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Among the fol. alternatives, DB-4e would have the highest Gain when used with reflector. If remove rear reflector [i.e.Bi-Directional], it has slightly higher Gain than CS 4MAX on most Channels.

A-D DB-4e has about 11.7 to 14.4 dBi UHF Gain [about 3 dB less if remove rear screen] and 2.7 to 3.2 dBi Gain in Hi-VHF Band if add VHF Antenna Kit:
www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_files/attachmentlibrary/DB4E-TDS.pdf

A-D C2-V has about 9.5 to 10.0+ dBi UHF Gain [about 3 dB less if remove rear screen] and 2.7 to 3.2 dBi Gain in Hi-VHF Band:
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loo...taperedloopc2v

A-D CS 4MAX has about 9 dBi UHF Gain [Bi-Directional] and 2.5 dBi Gain in Hi-VHF Band. Note that it is always shown WITHOUT a rear screen, but fol. website (erroneously) claims 12 dBi UHF Gain....this is apparently for the Original C4 WITH reflector...w/o Gain would be about 9 dBi:
https://store.antennasdirect.com/Cle...V-Antenna.html
Original C4 Data Sheet, with reflector:
https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_...s/C4MVJ_QS.pdf

RCA ANT-751 has about 7 dBi Gain in Hi-VHF Band (per my 4nec2 model) and 6-8 dBi in UHF (same as Lo-VHF/UHF W-G HD-7000 from which it was derived):
https://manuals.solidsignal.com/HD7000R.pdf

FYI: Stellar Labs 302475 has about 8.7 to 10.8 dBi Gain in Hi-VHF Band (Only):
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yag...agistellarlabs

Spec sheet for Fracarro LP345 Hi-VHF/UHF LPDA says it has about 5.5 to 8.5 dBi in Hi-VHF Band [a LOT more than other alternatives] and 10-11 dBi [a LOT less than other alternatives] in UHF Band...available from Summit Source:
https://www.summitsource.com/Fracarr...CABEgJcuPD_BwE

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post #17700 of 17921 Old 07-18-2019, 08:01 AM
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Of course it doesn't list the limitations; that description is from the marketing department. Their job is to write copy that sells antennas.

What I wrote is from ADTech who works for Antennas Direct, gives accurate advice about reception problems on three forums, and has extensive experience working with the antennas sold by Antennas Direct. I would trust the opinion given by an engineering type person over a marketing person any day; it's a matter of integrity.



I have seen the same problem with Channel Master. The equipment descriptions written by the engineers of the original Channel Master company could be trusted; the descriptions written by the present Channel Master company are not accurate and can't be trusted. For example:

https://www.channelmaster.com/Digita.../cm-4228hd.htm
Really? Well, maybe if they are strong enough. But that is nothing like the standard definition of beamwidth defined as the angle between the half-power points at 3 dB down.
On the contrary, it is VERY directional; even more directional than the 4221HD. Does this look like 180 degrees?



Looks like about 30 degrees to me.

Solid Signal is a little more realistic:
https://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=4228-hd
The problems that you can have with the two 4-bay panels that can be set at different angles as in the DB8e, are no different than what you will have with two separate 4-bay antennas aimed in different directions. Sometimes it works; sometimes, not.

http://forum.tvfool.com/showpost.php...84&postcount=7

https://forum.tvfool.com/showpost.ph...4&postcount=18
I am very familiar with "marketing speak" but without direct access to people like ADtech what is a consumer to do? I know... hang out in this forum!

I would like to hear his thoughts about the dual antenna 180 degree arrangement vs. just a single x-bay bowtie array without a rear reflector. At least that gets rid of the phasing/cancellation issues.

I also now understand the reference to 90 degrees being optimum due to the mutual null in each antennas pattern.

Last edited by Steve347; 07-18-2019 at 08:18 AM.
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