The Official AVS Antenna and Related Hardware Topic! - Page 602 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #18031 of 18086 Old 02-04-2020, 01:08 PM
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I have been using a 4228 8 bay antenna for years in the attic. It is standing up against a flat wall facing south. It has done well and I could get the channels desired. Lately, I've been having trouble with channels 3 (UHF 28) and 5 (VHF). I know the 4228 isn't recommended for channel 5 but it has done very well for me for some reason. Other channels above and below UHF 28 are great. It's winter so leaves are not a current issue. Anyway, I'm looking for another antenna that will be better. Size is an issue and it must go in the attic.

Here are the channels desired and they are between 163 and 190 degrees from my location:
3 (UHF 28)
5 (VHF 5)
10 (UHF 29)
13 (UHF 13)
24 (UHF 25)
30 (UHF 31)

We have had a couple cell towers put up south of us with the closest I'm aware of being within 2 miles south and I have ordered the LTE filter. There may be other towers physically closer in other directions.

Here is the rabbit ears report:

Report

Last edited by hdtvluvr; 02-04-2020 at 01:40 PM.
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post #18032 of 18086 Old 02-04-2020, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdtvluvr View Post
I have been using a 4228 8 bay antenna for years in the attic. It is standing up against a flat wall facing south. It has done well and I could get the channels desired. Lately, I've been having trouble with channels 3 (UHF 28) and 5 (VHF). I know the 4228 isn't recommended for channel 5 but it has done very well for me for some reason. Other channels above and below UHF 28 are great. It's winter so leaves are not a current issue. Anyway, I'm looking for another antenna that will be better. Size is an issue and it must go in the attic.
Hello, hdtvluvr. Thank you for the signal report with the channels sorted by virtual (AKA display) channel number.
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchma...=53396&opkey=C



If you are using the original CM4228, it has some useful gain for RF channel 13. Scroll to the bottom of this page:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

The 4228 doesn't do well with RF channel 5. You have been receiving it because it is very strong for you. If 5 has become a problem lately, I suspect an increase in the local noise level, which is high on VHF-Low and reduces the SNR.

I suggest you try a set of rabbit ears as a test for 5 connected directly to the tuner. Each side should be extended to 35 inches with wires if necessary for a total width of 70 inches. Or, you can make a folded dipole, 70 inches long. If 5 is then better, you can combine the channel 5 antenna with the 4228 using a HLSJ.

Channel 28 could be an LTE problem; the filter test will tell. The coax should be grounded with a grounding block. It's not required with an indoor antenna, but when you are using a filter, interference can go around the filter if the coax isn't grounded. If the LTE filter doesn't help, suspect multipath reflections; try a slightly different antenna location.
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post #18033 of 18086 Old 02-04-2020, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
.......

I suggest you try a set of rabbit ears as a test for 5 connected directly to the tuner. Each side should be extended to 35 inches with wires if necessary for a total width of 70 inches. Or, you can make a folded dipole, 70 inches long. If 5 is then better, you can combine the channel 5 antenna with the 4228 using a HLSJ.

Channel 28 could be an LTE problem; the filter test will tell. The coax should be grounded with a grounding block. It's not required with an indoor antenna, but when you are using a filter, interference can go around the filter if the coax isn't grounded. If the LTE filter doesn't help, suspect multipath reflections; try a slightly different antenna location.
There isn't a water pipe anywhere near this antenna nor an easy path to outside and a grounding rod which I assume should technically be connected to the main house ground. Any other suggestions? And why isn't there a possibility of LTE affecting 29 & 31?
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post #18034 of 18086 Old 02-04-2020, 05:31 PM
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For a test, you can make a temporary connection to ground to a cold water pipe that you know is properly grounded or to the ground terminal of a properly wired 3-wire receptacle.





It is possible to have interference on just one UHF channel from a subharmonic or from an intermodulation interference product.

A spectrum analyzer is the best tool to hunt for interference, but most people don't have one. You can use a $20 SDR dongle with free open-source spectrum analyzer software. Otherwise, you have to do trial-and-error testing. This is an indoor antenna I made for channel 3:



This is an SDR dongle scan of VHF-Low showing a channel 3 signal and a very high noise level:



There could be something in the signal path for that signal which has a different azimuth. Even if the leaves are gone, the tree is still there.

There could be a problem with the transmitted CBS signal. If your question is moved to the Memphis thread by the moderator, you can ask the guys there.
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post #18035 of 18086 Old 02-04-2020, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdtvluvr View Post
There isn't a water pipe anywhere near this antenna nor an easy path to outside and a grounding rod which I assume should technically be connected to the main house ground. Any other suggestions? And why isn't there a possibility of LTE affecting 29 & 31?

I suggest you ground your coax near the antenna. While it may not be required for lightning protection, it is helpful for signal integrity, and a house ground should be fine so long as it is at the same potential as the tuner (no stupid house wiring problems).

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post #18036 of 18086 Old 02-04-2020, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
For a test, you can make a temporary connection to ground to a cold water pipe that you know is properly grounded or to the ground terminal of a properly wired 3-wire receptacle.
.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
I suggest you ground your coax near the antenna. While it may not be required for lightning protection, it is helpful for signal integrity, and a house ground should be fine so long as it is at the same potential as the tuner (no stupid house wiring problems).
So can connecting to a 3-wire receptacle be a permanent solution? Getting to a water pipe will be just as difficult as getting to a ground rod outside excluding bonding it to the main house ground.

What is "the same potential as the tuner"? Does that mean the same outlet?
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post #18037 of 18086 Old 02-05-2020, 08:09 AM
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Equipment Leakage Current

Quote:
Originally Posted by hdtvluvr View Post
So can connecting to a 3-wire receptacle be a permanent solution? Getting to a water pipe will be just as difficult as getting to a ground rod outside excluding bonding it to the main house ground.
Well, it's not ideal, but it's adequate for the LTE test if the receptacle is properly wired. Each receptacle of a surge suppressor strip connected to a 3-wire receptacle is grounded that way.

There is another reason why I think it is a good idea to ground the coax shield with a grounding block connected to the house electrical system ground, even with an indoor antenna. I have had three close calls with electrical shock, so I bought a leakage current tester to check AC operated equipment.



Your antenna coax is connected to AC operated equipment. All AC operated equipment has leakage current, even when operating properly. You can't feel it because it is below your threshold of perception. If the AC operated equipment becomes defective, the leakage current can increase and go through your body, creating a shock hazard.

Most TVs only have a two-wire power plug, so their antenna connector outer thread isn't grounded. I had a Samsung TV that had a 3-wire plug because it could be used as a computer monitor. If you connect the coax shield to a grounding block that is connected to the grounding pin of a plug that is inserted in a properly wired 3-wire receptacle, that would be equivalent to a 3-wire plug on the TV for testing.

If I calibrate a piece of equipment to be used by someone else, I also check it for leakage current.



Initially, in the above temporary setup, the antenna coax shield was not grounded. During testing, when I touched the coax shield and the grounded metal strip at the front edge of the counter, I felt a mild shock. The voltage on the coax was about 40 volts AC. When I investigated further, I discovered that the individual leakage currents of each piece of equipment were added together when all the equipment was connected together; the total leakage current was about 200 µA (microamperes). The individual equipment leakage currents were within safe limits as was the total leakage current, but the shock got my attention. When I grounded the coax, the leakage current went to zero and there was no longer any voltage on the coax shield.

A case history:
Getting A/C voltage on converter box's antenna input !
https://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/81-...ml#post1457594
Equipment Leakage Current
https://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/81-...ml#post1457668

Quote:
What is "the same potential as the tuner"? Does that mean the same outlet?
When two pieces of equipment, a piece of equipment and ground, or two grounds are at the same potential, it means there is no difference in voltage between them to shock you.

You will also find the term "difference of potential" used when considering grounding the antenna mast. If you use a separate grounding rod to ground an antenna mast, the code requires that the grounding rod be connected (bonded) to the house electrical system ground with 6 gauge (expensive) copper wire so that there is no difference of potential between the two grounds.

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post #18038 of 18086 Old 02-05-2020, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdtvluvr View Post
We have had a couple cell towers put up south of us with the closest I'm aware of being within 2 miles south and I have ordered the LTE filter. There may be other towers physically closer in other directions.

Here is the rabbit ears report:

Report
Interesting thread about LTE filters on WTFDA Forum
started in 2013 and still running

Houston, we have a problem.
http://www.wtfda.org/forums/forum/wt...ave-a-problem=
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Originally Posted by Primestar31 View Post
Ok, I just tried the new LTE filter on the back of my 2013 LG tv set after a PM I received from another person here that mentioned trying it that way. It did NOT drop signal or quality level on WAQP-49, which broadcasts on RF36. Checking all my other receivable channels, it didn't affect any of them adversely as far as I can tell, and the two low powered ones WFFC & WFKB seemed to have come UP a couple points. It only took me about a minute to screw the filter on, so atmospheric changes shouldn't have affected anything that quickly.

So, that at least gives me hope that once I can install it at the output of my actual antenna, and before the Kitztech KT-200 preamp, that I don't have to worry about it killing WAQP's signal, or even dropping it enough to cause issues with reception.

Question: Can LTE transmissions affect any tv channels BELOW RF36~, if the tower is close enough to you, say within 1 mile? Not sure if subharmonics can apply to LTE broadcasts.

Well, there's still some snow and ice on my garage roof, but there's an area around the outer edges where it's melted off a bit. Just enough that I can sidestep enough of it to get to my antenna mast device connection box at the eves peak line. I just went up there and installed the new version Channel Master LTE filter inline between my HDB91x UHF antenna, and the Kitztech KT-200 preamp.

Everything working just as before, and seems to have actually brought signal levels UP a little bit all around!

So all in all, it appears to have been a well-spent $19 total (free shipping).
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post #18040 of 18086 Old 02-05-2020, 01:44 PM
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Well, there's still some snow and ice on my garage roof, but there's an area around the outer edges where it's melted off a bit. Just enough that I can sidestep enough of it to get to my antenna mast device connection box at the eves peak line. I just went up there and installed the new version Channel Master LTE filter inline between my HDB91x UHF antenna, and the Kitztech KT-200 preamp.

Everything working just as before, and seems to have actually brought signal levels UP a little bit all around!

So all in all, it appears to have been a well-spent $19 total (free shipping).
You mentioned before that you tried the filter at the connection behind your tv set. Was there a big difference as to signal strength etc. as compared to mounting it on the mast near the antenna?
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post #18041 of 18086 Old 02-05-2020, 01:46 PM
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You mentioned before that you tried the filter at the connection behind your tv set. Was there a big difference as to signal strength etc. as compared to mounting it on the mast near the antenna?
Yes, about 5~ points higher having it installed right at the antenna, and before my preamp. At the back of the tv set it was only around maybe 2~ points higher.
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post #18042 of 18086 Old 02-05-2020, 02:18 PM
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Yes, about 5~ points higher having it installed right at the antenna, and before my preamp. At the back of the tv set it was only around maybe 2~ points higher.
Thanks for that information. I might try one. I do have the Winegard Boost XT LNA-200 preamp that is supposed to have a bandpass filter that covers the 4G channels but that leaves out the newer ones.
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post #18043 of 18086 Old 02-05-2020, 03:07 PM
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Thanks for that information. I might try one. I do have the Winegard Boost XT LNA-200 preamp that is supposed to have a bandpass filter that covers the 4G channels but that leaves out the newer ones.

Best to replace the amp for one without a filter, not good to cascade filters.
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post #18044 of 18086 Old 02-05-2020, 04:39 PM
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Best to replace the amp for one without a filter, not good to cascade filters.
I was thinking about that but thanks for the advice. I have a few other amps I've tried which I may use that do not have the LTE filter.
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NEW CM-3201 LTE Filter Spec Sheet



Quote:
Originally Posted by Primestar31 View Post
Yes, about 5~ points higher having it {the new CM-3201 LTE Filter} installed right at the antenna, and before my preamp. At the back of the tv set it was only around maybe 2~ points higher.
I sent an eMail to CM asking about the 3201 LTE filter:
Quote:
CM-3201 eMail to CM 2-5-2020
In Dec of 2018 I purchased a CM-3201 LTE filter for the 14-51 UHF TV band. The filter works well, but the new post-Repack band is now channels 14-36. I see in your current description of the CM-3201 Electrical Specifications:
Frequencies Pass 5 - 599 MHz
Frequencies Block 600 - 2000 MHz
Has the CM-3201 been redesigned for the 14-36 post-Repack band or is that description incorrect?
If that description is correct, then the filter will harm channels 35 and 36:
35: 596 to 602 MHz
36: 602 to 608 MHz
Reply from CM:
Quote:
Sent: Thu, Feb 06, 2020 11:39 AM
Feb 6, 9:39 AM MST

Great question! So I've done some digging for you, and I attached the spec sheet below for the updated LTE filter. I would NOT recommend switching you over to this because I just looked through your channel list and you still have quite a few stations above 36 that have not yet switched over to their new frequency. If you switched out your LTE filter, you would ultimate block all of those channels above RF 36 out. You have a couple of stations in range that are in Phase 8 of the re-pack which should happen mid March and several stations that are Phase 9 which is mid May. I would hold off on changing out any equipment unless any stations above 36 are not of importance. I'm also going to attach a screen shot of the stations in your area for your reference. Thanks!

Chris (Channel Master Support)


It will attenuate channel 36 a little; the previous version did the same thing to 51.

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Can I bind the antenna ground with the solar panel ground and use that instead of having to run copper wire to main house ground?
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Help With Hi-VHF Channel Fox 11 WLUK Reception

Rabbitears Link: https://www.rabbitears.info/searchma...study_id=56293


I currently have an older Clearstream 2V (See pic) antenna located in my attic (I do not want an outside/roof antenna if possible). I only care about ABC, CBS , NBC , & WLUK-Fox11 channels.
-single story ranch home with plywood roof and asphalt shingles and am connecting the antenna with 20ft of coax to basement and then to a 4 tuner HDHomerun Quatro.



I currently get ABC, CBS, & NBC no problems, but Fox 11 is very sketchy sometimes (See tuners picture). I learned that Fox is High-VHF and the clearstream 2V looks like it's not very good with VHF reception having only 1 dipole?


I ordered the EZ HD (see pic) antenna from Denny's TV & Winegard Ya-7000 (see pic) from Amazon. Just wondering if either of these two would be better for Fox11? Is there a better antenna alternative?
Thank you.
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post #18048 of 18086 Old 02-09-2020, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MBrown2020 View Post
Rabbitears Link: https://www.rabbitears.info/searchma...study_id=56293


I currently have an older Clearstream 2V (See pic) antenna located in my attic (I do not want an outside/roof antenna if possible). I only care about ABC, CBS , NBC , & WLUK-Fox11 channels.
-single story ranch home with plywood roof and asphalt shingles and am connecting the antenna with 20ft of coax to basement and then to a 4 tuner HDHomerun Quatro.



I currently get ABC, CBS, & NBC no problems, but Fox 11 is very sketchy sometimes (See tuners picture). I learned that Fox is High-VHF and the clearstream 2V looks like it's not very good with VHF reception having only 1 dipole?


I ordered the EZ HD (see pic) antenna from Denny's TV & Winegard Ya-7000 (see pic) from Amazon. Just wondering if either of these two would be better for Fox11? Is there a better antenna alternative?
Thank you.
I think that the two antennas you ordered are similar as I recall reading that Winegard makes that EZ antenna for Denny's:

http://forum.tvfool.com/showpost.php...4&postcount=85

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...l#post49297265

I have a Clearstream 2V also which I use experimentally but I use a Clearstream 4 primarily and they're both great antennas. Since you are around 40 miles away from the transmitters according to your report and you only have one problem channel, I was wondering if you ever tried an antenna amplifier? That may be all you need for that one station. I have used the RCA TVPRAMP1E (which sometimes ends with a Z instead) and that works fairly well although some have had an issue with the switch on it. See this post for new model which may or may not be as good:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...l#post58928248

Also, I am currently using a Winegard Boost XT LNA-200 which has a lower output compared to the RCA so it is not as likely to overload your tv tuner.

Also, VHF is prone to interference so that is another possibility. Here is a reference to some issues regarding that:

http://dennysantennaservice.com/vhf-...erference.html
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Quote:
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Also, I am currently using a Winegard Boost XT LNA-200 which has a lower output compared to the RCA so it is not as likely to overload your tv tuner.

Also, VHF is prone to interference so that is another possibility. Here is a reference to some issues regarding that:

http://dennysantennaservice.com/vhf-...erference.html

Thanks for the reply. I do have a (See Pic) Channel Master Titan 2 amp (CM 778) laying around that I bought with the antenna years ago, but only just revisited my antenna recently.
Should I try that first?
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post #18050 of 18086 Old 02-09-2020, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by MBrown2020 View Post
Thanks for the reply. I do have a (See Pic) Channel Master Titan 2 amp (CM 778) laying around that I bought with the antenna years ago, but only just revisited my antenna recently.
Should I try that first?
I would if it's not too much trouble. I never tried one of those so I have no direct knowledge of them but I know they made a few different versions. The specs can be found here:

https://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=cm-7778

It says 16dB of gain so that should not overload your tv tuner. The main amplifier part should be near the antenna in your attic but the power inserter goes near your tv which I assume the amplifier has but check the instructions. It doesn't hurt to experiment to see if it helps that one problem channel.
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post #18051 of 18086 Old 02-09-2020, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by finalwish View Post
Can I bind the antenna ground with the solar panel ground and use that instead of having to run copper wire to main house ground?
You can do it, but it wouldn't be according to code. It should be a separate run. The latest device to ground equipment to the house electrical system ground is called an IBTB (Intersystem Bonding Termination Bar).
https://www.erico.com/catalog/literature/E803S-NAEN.pdf





The IBTB has a lay-in clamp for the house ground wire which must not be disconnected even for a moment when the house electrical system is energized.

There is a grounding thread on this forum:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...oax-cable.html

It would probably be a good idea to keep the antenna and its wiring away from the solar panels because inverters have been known to cause interference to TV reception.

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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Last edited by rabbit73; 02-11-2020 at 08:36 AM.
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post #18052 of 18086 Old 02-09-2020, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by MBrown2020 View Post
Rabbitears Link: https://www.rabbitears.info/searchma...study_id=56293

I currently get ABC, CBS, & NBC no problems, but Fox 11 is very sketchy sometimes (See tuners picture). I learned that Fox is High-VHF and the clearstream 2V looks like it's not very good with VHF reception having only 1 dipole?

I ordered the EZ HD (see pic) antenna from Denny's TV & Winegard Ya-7000 (see pic) from Amazon. Just wondering if either of these two would be better for Fox11? Is there a better antenna alternative?
Thank you.
Thank you for the signal report. Your signals are fairly strong outside, but will be weaker in the attic.

The two antennas you ordered have a little more gain than the C2V dipole for 11. Try them first. If 11 still isn't good enough, add the preamp as suggested by jkeldo. If 11 still isn't good enough, you will need an antenna with more VHF gain like the Stellar Labs 30-2475. Combine it with your C2V using a UVSJ (UHF-VHF Separator-Joiner). Find a location for the VHF antenna in the attic that gives the best reception.

An alternative would be to replace the C2V with a Winegard HD7694P.

Jkeldo is correct about electrical noise; it can interfere with VHF reception.
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post #18053 of 18086 Old 02-13-2020, 06:39 PM
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Attenuation of NEW CM-3201 LTE Filter



This is the spec sheet for the NEW CM-3201 LTE Filter:



These are my attenuation measurements of the new filter that I bought:

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Last edited by rabbit73; 02-14-2020 at 09:06 AM.
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post #18054 of 18086 Old 02-13-2020, 10:05 PM
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Here's an update on my quest for free HDTV. I got the 91XG set up with a CM7777v3 preamp and the results are very much improved. The best signals I've received so far have been with KNSD and KSWB. SNR has been in the mid to upper 20's for both stations. I've also noticed the signals are best once the sun goes down. They will however occasionally go from a really strong signal (SNR 28) to nothing at all about 3-4 times an hour. Also during the local news broadcasts in the evening the signals fluctuate quite a bit. For me day time and evening reception has to improve in order to justify keeping the antenna up. I'll keep trying though!

Right now I found the best location for my antenna to be the southeast corner of my house. The mast is currently set at about 17' high. See attached map.
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post #18055 of 18086 Old 02-14-2020, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
This is the spec sheet for the NEW CM-3201 LTE Filter:
Where did you get it? I bought a CM-3201 off of Amazon that said it was sold by Channel Master but received the old version.

We are experiencing some Technical Difficulties.
Please standby while we reboot our TV station...
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post #18056 of 18086 Old 02-14-2020, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by bobchase View Post
Where did you get it? I bought a CM-3201 off of Amazon that said it was sold by Channel Master but received the old version.
I'm not surprised that Amazon did that to you; it's so typical of them. They want to sell the old stock first.

This reminds me of a similar problem that CM created with the 7777 preamp. They redesigned the 7777 so that it had only one antenna input instead of two, but kept the SAME model number. So then we have had to ask a poster with a reception problem: "Which 7777 do you have?"

Primestar31 said the new filter was available. I looked at the CM website, but wasn't certain about the specs. CM support sent the spec sheet to me by eMail and I ordered the new filter directly from CM:
https://www.channelmaster.com/TV_Ant..._p/cm-3201.htm

Amazon still shows the old filter today:
https://www.amazon.com/Channel-Maste.../dp/B01JGSC5AO



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Last edited by rabbit73; 02-14-2020 at 09:17 AM.
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post #18057 of 18086 Old 02-14-2020, 09:12 AM
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Is an LTE filter recommended for everyone? I think there is a Boston channel on RF channel 35 and I'm less than mile from a Verizon tower.
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post #18058 of 18086 Old 02-14-2020, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by labjr View Post
Is an LTE filter recommended for everyone? I think there is a Boston channel on RF channel 35 and I'm less than mile from a Verizon tower.
An LTE filter should only be used if you have LTE interference to TV reception because it has an insertion loss in the passband that will make your weaker signals even weaker.


You should not use the new CM-3201 if you have any channels above 36 that you want.

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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post #18059 of 18086 Old 02-14-2020, 09:53 AM
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Question: What's the new king of antennas?

Back many years ago, a gentleman named Ken Nist published a web page that many of us have studied over the years-
www.hdtvprimer.com
This website has great information and is a good place to learn about how antennas work. Mr. Nist's extensive modeling, and subsequent tests by others, produced a pretty clear hierarchy regarding the three 8-bays available at the time:

The Winegard 8800 is great below RF 30 and stinks above that
The Antennas Direct DB-8 (old model) is great above RF 40 and stinks below that
The Channel Master 4228 is more balanced, with good performance from RF 14 all the way to RF 69.

Mr. Nist states, "(The Winegard 8800) is a top performer below channel 30, but it is a dog above channel 50."

So here's my question(s). Given that we are now watching TV only up to RF 36- and everything above that is gone- is the Winegard 8800 the best commercially-available UHF antenna? Or does the DB-8 E (new model) beat it? Does the CM 4228 still compete, given the new freq range? And is the AD 91XG still in this league?
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post #18060 of 18086 Old 02-14-2020, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Beranek View Post
So here's my question(s). Given that we are now watching TV only up to RF 36- and everything above that is gone- is the Winegard 8800 the best commercially-available UHF antenna? Or does the DB-8 E (new model) beat it? Does the CM 4228 still compete, given the new freq range? And is the AD 91XG still in this league?

As far as I know, the best antenna tuned for our band is sold in the UK, although it is possible to arrange reasonable shipping. It is called the XB16A.

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