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post #18061 of 18327 Old 02-14-2020, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
As far as I know, the best antenna tuned for our band is sold in the UK, although it is possible to arrange reasonable shipping. It is called the XB16A.
The XB16A looks good for our 14-36 UHF Band. Note the gain is given in dBd; add 2.15 to convert to dBi:



For comparison:





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post #18062 of 18327 Old 02-14-2020, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by bobchase View Post
Where did you get it? I bought a CM-3201 off of Amazon that said it was sold by Channel Master but received the old version.
I recently ordered directly from Channel Master and also received the old version despite the picture on their website showing the new one. They are sending me another one with a prepaid envelope to send the old one back. Apparently, they have both versions so anyone else ordering may want to check first with them before placing an order to get the exact version you want.
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post #18063 of 18327 Old 02-14-2020, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
I'm not surprised that Amazon did that to you; it's so typical of them. They want to sell the old stock first.

This reminds me of a similar problem that CM created with the 7777 preamp. They redesigned the 7777 so that it had only one antenna input instead of two, but kept the SAME model number. So then we have had to ask a poster with a reception problem: "Which 7777 do you have?"

Primestar31 said the new filter was available. I looked at the CM website, but wasn't certain about the specs. CM support sent the spec sheet to me by eMail and I ordered the new filter directly from CM:
https://www.channelmaster.com/TV_Ant..._p/cm-3201.htm

Amazon still shows the old filter today:
https://www.amazon.com/Channel-Maste.../dp/B01JGSC5AO



I don't think it was an Amazon issue since it says on their website: "Ships from and sold by Channel Master."
The picture does show the old version but since the new one is on the Channel Master site and some reviews indicate the new version, you might imply that they would send that one.

If it said that Amazon sold it or fulfilled the order, then it would be Amazon's fault. I ordered directly from Channel Master and received the old version (see previous post)!
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post #18064 of 18327 Old 02-14-2020, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
The XB16A looks good for our 14-36 UHF Band. Note the gain is given in dBd; add 2.15 to convert to dBi:
For comparison:

Good plots, thanks. While the DB8e may appear superior to the XB16A just looking at the numbers, these charts don't show directivity. A Yagi antenna has better directivity than a bow tie, so if you have multi-path like we do in the bay area there is a real possibility the bow tie style antennae will perform worse. I had to repurpose my DB4e from San Francisco stations to the closer Fremont stations, as my South San Jose location had too much multipath for the bow tie.
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91XG Yagi for San Francisco, DB4e bowtie for Fremont
SiliconDust HDHR4-2US network tuners, one per antenna
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Rabbit Ears reception report
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post #18065 of 18327 Old 02-14-2020, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSZ 007 View Post
Here's an update on my quest for free HDTV. I got the 91XG set up with a CM7777v3 preamp and the results are very much improved. The best signals I've received so far have been with KNSD and KSWB. SNR has been in the mid to upper 20's for both stations. I've also noticed the signals are best once the sun goes down. They will however occasionally go from a really strong signal (SNR 28) to nothing at all about 3-4 times an hour. Also during the local news broadcasts in the evening the signals fluctuate quite a bit. For me day time and evening reception has to improve in order to justify keeping the antenna up. I'll keep trying though!

Right now I found the best location for my antenna to be the southeast corner of my house. The mast is currently set at about 17' high. See attached map.
Thank you for making the tests and posting the report. I had hoped that the reception would have shown more improvement and am surprised that reception is better on the south side. I guess it's too much to expect reliable reception with terrain in the signal path and temperature inversions.




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post #18066 of 18327 Old 02-14-2020, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkeldo View Post
I recently ordered directly from Channel Master and also received the old version despite the picture on their website showing the new one. They are sending me another one with a prepaid envelope to send the old one back. Apparently, they have both versions so anyone else ordering may want to check first with them before placing an order to get the exact version you want.
Thank you for the report.

Using the same model number for both versions is really a bad idea. I had hoped they would have learned that with the 7777 preamps.

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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post #18067 of 18327 Old 02-14-2020, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Thank you for the report.

Using the same model number for both versions is really a bad idea. I had hoped they would have learned that with the 7777 preamps.
You would think they would change the model numbers. I'm still waiting for the second one to arrive.
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post #18068 of 18327 Old 02-14-2020, 03:51 PM
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Yeah, using the same model number causes a lot of confusion.
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post #18069 of 18327 Old 02-14-2020, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by labjr View Post
Yeah, using the same model number causes a lot of confusion.
Might be intentional in order to keep selling old stock.
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post #18070 of 18327 Old 02-14-2020, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by nathill View Post
Might be intentional in order to keep selling old stock.

Which I'm glad for! I was afraid I was getting the new 600 MHz filter from Amazon from CM after seeing @rabbit73 's post. Whew! I either got lucky or the amazon link I clicked on was specific for 700 Mhz cutoff filter. I got that link from @mattdp 's guide. Yeah I do wish they had added an extra set of numbers to their model numbers to differentiate.


https://www.amazon.com/Channel-Maste...language=en_US

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post #18071 of 18327 Old 02-15-2020, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Thank you for making the tests and posting the report. I had hoped that the reception would have shown more improvement and am surprised that reception is better on the south side. I guess it's too much to expect reliable reception with terrain in the signal path and temperature inversions.
Rabbit -

I have not given up just yet and will keep trying different locations on both north and south sides. Based on my signal strength fluctuations, is that consistent with multi-path issues? Or is it something else? The fluctuations happen on all channels. Signal strength will be great for about 5-10 minutes and then drop out completely for a few seconds to a minute at a time. I can make a video of what I'm seeing if you'd like.

As far as mounting to the south side, it was just an easier installation. There aren't any obstructions in the SE corner. No tall trees or buildings in the distance. I also didn't have to go as high since I don't have to clear the peak of my roof. The mast is at 18' on that side. The two story house two doors down to the south is also not in play since its roof ridge is about the same height as the house directly next to me. Do you think going a little higher would help though?
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post #18072 of 18327 Old 02-15-2020, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSZ 007 View Post
Rabbit -

I have not given up just yet and will keep trying different locations on both north and south sides. Based on my signal strength fluctuations, is that consistent with multi-path issues? Or is it something else? The fluctuations happen on all channels. Signal strength will be great for about 5-10 minutes and then drop out completely for a few seconds to a minute at a time. I can make a video of what I'm seeing if you'd like.

As far as mounting to the south side, it was just an easier installation. There aren't any obstructions in the SE corner. No tall trees or buildings in the distance. I also didn't have to go as high since I don't have to clear the peak of my roof. The mast is at 18' on that side. The two story house two doors down to the south is also not in play since its roof ridge is about the same height as the house directly next to me. Do you think going a little higher would help though?
I wonder if you are getting LTE interference as that issue has been discussed here recently. I would start with the following post and go down a few more posts for more information:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...l#post59183000
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post #18073 of 18327 Old 02-15-2020, 07:27 PM
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Tropospheric Propagation

Quote:
Originally Posted by MSZ 007 View Post
I have not given up just yet and will keep trying different locations on both north and south sides. Based on my signal strength fluctuations, is that consistent with multi-path issues? Or is it something else? The fluctuations happen on all channels. Signal strength will be great for about 5-10 minutes and then drop out completely for a few seconds to a minute at a time. I can make a video of what I'm seeing if you'd like.
A video might be interesting if you have the time.

There are several factors causing the fluctuations. Your signals are not direct LOS because of terrain interference; they are scattered which causes multipath. But most important, they are Tropo signals, which means they would go off into space and never reach you were it not for Tropospheric Propagation which creates a duct that carries them to your location.

Quote:
The best signals I've received so far have been with KNSD and KSWB. SNR has been in the mid to upper 20's for both stations. I've also noticed the signals are best once the sun goes down. They will however occasionally go from a really strong signal (SNR 28) to nothing at all about 3-4 times an hour. Also during the local news broadcasts in the evening the signals fluctuate quite a bit. For me day time and evening reception has to improve in order to justify keeping the antenna up. I'll keep trying though!
The formation of a duct is dependent upon weather conditions, primarily a temperature inversion, which varies according to a 24-hour cycle. I suggest you look at the video by Gordon West about Tropospheric Propagation. It's about ham radio signals making it all the way from Hawaii to California, but the signals are on frequencies similar to TV signals.
Gordon West Explains Tropospheric Ducting



The formation of the ducts is explained beginning at about 22:02 in the video.


see also:

Tropospheric DX Modes
http://www.dxinfocentre.com/propagation/tr-modes.htm
Most likely: 3) TROPOSPHERIC SUPER-REFRACTION (TrE)
or 4) TROPOSPHERIC DUCTING (TrD), in your case

http://www.mike-willis.com/Tutorial/refraction.htm
Anomalous Propagation
Figure 7 - Surface and Elevated Ducts

The optical equivalent is a mirage:
https://www.abc57.com/news/skyline-s...ichigan-mirage

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirage
Superior mirage

Quote:
As far as mounting to the south side, it was just an easier installation. There aren't any obstructions in the SE corner. No tall trees or buildings in the distance. I also didn't have to go as high since I don't have to clear the peak of my roof. The mast is at 18' on that side. The two story house two doors down to the south is also not in play since its roof ridge is about the same height as the house directly next to me. Do you think going a little higher would help though?
The general rule is higher is better, but because of layering, there will be hot and cold spots as you move up and down as I showed you earlier. You just have to try it.

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post #18074 of 18327 Old 02-18-2020, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Thank you for the signal report. Your signals are fairly strong outside, but will be weaker in the attic.

The two antennas you ordered have a little more gain than the C2V dipole for 11. Try them first. If 11 still isn't good enough, add the preamp as suggested by jkeldo. If 11 still isn't good enough, you will need an antenna with more VHF gain like the Stellar Labs 30-2475. Combine it with your C2V using a UVSJ (UHF-VHF Separator-Joiner). Find a location for the VHF antenna in the attic that gives the best reception.

An alternative would be to replace the C2V with a Winegard HD7694P.

Jkeldo is correct about electrical noise; it can interfere with VHF reception.

If I go with the Stellar Labs 30-2475 for VHF & my C2V for UHF can I go with Channel Master CM-7778HD Amplify+ Pro (See pic) as the UHF-VHF Joiner for both antennas and then also have it amplify the signal?
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post #18075 of 18327 Old 02-18-2020, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MBrown2020 View Post
If I go with the Stellar Labs 30-2475 for VHF & my C2V for UHF can I go with Channel Master CM-7778HD Amplify+ Pro (See pic) as the UHF-VHF Joiner for both antennas and then also have it amplify the signal?
Yes, that should work.

Did you try your present 7778 and a UVSJ first?
https://www.radioshack.com/products/...itter-combiner

WLUK will be moving to channel 12 during Repack Phase 9: 3/14/2020 to 5/1/2020. They might have a weaker signal or be off the air at times for antenna work.
https://www.rabbitears.info/repackch...=&lss=&status=

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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post #18076 of 18327 Old 02-21-2020, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Yes, that should work.

Did you try your present 7778 and a UVSJ first?
https://www.radioshack.com/products/...itter-combiner

Not yet, I will have more time this weekend to play around with this. That Radio Shack UVSJ is hard to locate, do you have any other suggestions for a good one, via Amazon would be great?
Thank you.

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post #18077 of 18327 Old 02-21-2020, 06:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Thank you for the signal report. Your signals are fairly strong outside, but will be weaker in the attic.

The two antennas you ordered have a little more gain than the C2V dipole for 11. Try them first. If 11 still isn't good enough, add the preamp as suggested by jkeldo. If 11 still isn't good enough, you will need an antenna with more VHF gain like the Stellar Labs 30-2475. Combine it with your C2V using a UVSJ (UHF-VHF Separator-Joiner). Find a location for the VHF antenna in the attic that gives the best reception.

An alternative would be to replace the C2V with a Winegard HD7694P.

Jkeldo is correct about electrical noise; it can interfere with VHF reception.

I managed to install the Winegard YA-7000 without an amp. VHF Fox 11 comes in a lot better signal strength (80%), signal quality (80%), but the symbol quality dips into the red for a second every 10-20 seconds. I get little video/audio blips most times.
All other channels come in fine. My next step was to try the amp and see if it helps.
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post #18078 of 18327 Old 02-21-2020, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by MBrown2020 View Post
Not yet, I will have more time this weekend to play around with this. That Radio Shack UVSJ is hard to locate, do you have any other suggestions for a good one, via Amazon would be great?
Thank you.
I don't understand why you would say that, I gave you a direct link to Radio Shack where it is on sale for $4.49:
https://www.radioshack.com/products/...itter-combiner





If you prefer Amazon, you can buy it from a third-party seller:
https://www.amazon.com/Radioshack-Co.../dp/B001VLPQ6K

The UVSJ by Antennas Direct is also good, but more expensive:
https://store.antennasdirect.com/UHF...Combiners.html

https://www.amazon.com/Antennas-Dire.../dp/B008PBTPN4





Don't buy the Stellar Labs 33-2230, it isn't as good.


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post #18079 of 18327 Old 02-21-2020, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by MBrown2020 View Post
I managed to install the Winegard YA-7000 without an amp. VHF Fox 11 comes in a lot better signal strength (80%), signal quality (80%), but the symbol quality dips into the red for a second every 10-20 seconds. I get little video/audio blips most times.
All other channels come in fine. My next step was to try the amp and see if it helps.
Thank you for the HDHR GUI images. They show good signal strength, but a sudden dip in symbol quality is a sudden increase in errors. This could be caused by a sudden change in the signal path, like dynamic multi path from trees in the wind, moving vehicles or aircraft. Intermittent electrical interference could also be the cause.

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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post #18080 of 18327 Old 02-22-2020, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Thank you for the HDHR GUI images. They show good signal strength, but a sudden dip in symbol quality is a sudden increase in errors. This could be caused by a sudden change in the signal path, like dynamic multi path from trees in the wind, moving vehicles or aircraft. Intermittent electrical interference could also be the cause.

I ended up going back to the Denny's EZHD antenna (I think RCA ANT751) as I couldn't get Fox11 with the Winegard YA-7000 at all today. I used the Channel Master Amplify 7777HD @17dB and was able to get all channels without overdriving, but VHF Fox 11 was still cutting out every 10-15 sec. (See pic). So, my attic with these 2 antennas will not give me satisfactory results with the 1 VHF-Hi station (Fox 11). My next step is to try the Stellar Labs 30-2475(Becauses sometimes the best tool for the job might be needed) to just tune in Fox 11 with the RS UVSJ (You linked), along with my ClearStream CV2 (UHF was perfect). Does this sound good as a next step?
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Display: LG 65" OLED C7P + OPPO UDP-203 4K UHD Blu-ray Player
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Amps: (1) Rotel RMB-1585 + (3) Rotel RB-1582 MKII -- Subs: (4) SVS PC-2000's

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post #18081 of 18327 Old 02-22-2020, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by MBrown2020 View Post
I used the Channel Master Amplify 7777HD @17dB and was able to get all channels without overdriving, but VHF Fox 11 was still cutting out every 10-15 sec. (See pic). So, my attic with these 2 antennas will not give me satisfactory results with the 1 VHF-Hi station (Fox 11). My next step is to try the Stellar Labs 30-2475(Becauses sometimes the best tool for the job might be needed) to just tune in Fox 11 with the RS UVSJ (You linked), along with my ClearStream CV2 (UHF was perfect). Does this sound good as a next step?
Thank you for the new images.

I have two 7777HD preamps that I like to use for test setups, but I don't think its enclosure is ideal for outdoor use.

Yes, it sounds like a good next step. You will learn something from every experiment, even if it doesn't yet solve the problem.

CH11 is stronger, and the signal quality went down. So now you have a stronger signal with an SNR that is worse, but you still have intermittent errors with an unknown cause. My current wild guess is electrical interference.

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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Last edited by rabbit73; 02-22-2020 at 08:02 PM.
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post #18082 of 18327 Old 02-22-2020, 08:37 PM
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Seems like everyone has a problem of some sort with their antenna setup. They really make you work to get OTA TV! It's as if they really don't want anyone to get it for free and they'd prefer that you pay for subscription somewhere.

IMO all stations should be required to broadcast their OTA channels on the internet. Especially since ATSC 3.0 is IP based.
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post #18083 of 18327 Old 02-22-2020, 08:59 PM
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IMO all stations should be required to broadcast their OTA channels on the internet. Especially since ATSC 3.0 is IP based.
The local stations won't stand for allowing someone in their viewing area to watch a station outside of the DMA. That is why we got cut off from subscribing to New York or Los Angeles local stations via satellite.

It would solve a lot of issues tho.

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post #18084 of 18327 Old 02-22-2020, 09:18 PM
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The local stations won't stand for allowing someone in their viewing area to watch a station outside of the DMA. That is why we got cut off from subscribing to New York or Los Angeles local stations via satellite.

It would solve a lot of issues tho.
Well they could check your location by IP address etc. like Locast does. But it's about time to let people watch their locals without all the hassle. They need to get with the times. Art some point cable TV as we know it will be history and local channels will probably be begging you to watch.

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post #18085 of 18327 Old 02-23-2020, 03:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by labjr View Post
Seems like everyone has a problem of some sort with their antenna setup. They really make you work to get OTA TV! It's as if they really don't want anyone to get it for free and they'd prefer that you pay for subscription somewhere.

IMO all stations should be required to broadcast their OTA channels on the internet. Especially since ATSC 3.0 is IP based.
It sure is worse today than it was around 2002. Chans just go blank for hours, or break up for no reason. Wished we could go back to the 70's. Most are 480i anyways and look worse than what we had 45 years ago.
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post #18086 of 18327 Old 02-23-2020, 07:37 AM
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It sure is worse today than it was around 2002. Chans just go blank for hours, or break up for no reason. Wished we could go back to the 70's. Most are 480i anyways and look worse than what we had 45 years ago.
Hopefully when the repack is done and ATSC 3.0 is in place this will stop for a while. Well, until ATSC 4.0 and the next repack.

IMO, at some point, the FCC will probably sell off the remaining OTA channels to the highest bidder.
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post #18087 of 18327 Old 02-24-2020, 09:15 PM
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FYI: Most Cable Co's offer a "Bare-Bones" Local+Govt+Shopping Tier [sometimes Analog....and sometimes Digital only] for about $10-15/mo [plus, if needed another $5-10/mo for a DTA Digital Terminal Adapter]....but they usually "hide" it, so mention the cost range you're looking for.
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post #18088 of 18327 Old 02-25-2020, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Thank you for the new images.

I have two 7777HD preamps that I like to use for test setups, but I don't think its enclosure is ideal for outdoor use.

Yes, it sounds like a good next step. You will learn something from every experiment, even if it doesn't yet solve the problem.

CH11 is stronger, and the signal quality went down. So now you have a stronger signal with an SNR that is worse, but you still have intermittent errors with an unknown cause. My current wild guess is electrical interference.

The Stellar Labs 30-2475 comes on Friday, So I will try that this weekend.


As a test today I mounted the Winegard YA-7000 to my extension ladder and put it outside my house about 13' up in the air and pointed it in the direction for Fox11. I then connected 35' coax to my HDHomerun. I had decent quality on all stations, but Fox 11 still cut out every 15-20 seconds and dipped for symbol quality. Outside above my roof still didn't get any better reception???? I'm starting to wonder if I just won't be able to get Fox 11 perfectly?? Doesn't seem to be any better than my current attic installation.

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post #18089 of 18327 Old 02-25-2020, 04:19 PM
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MBrown2020 WLUK...Perhaps FM trap? Also, repack.

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Originally Posted by MBrown2020 View Post

As a test today... .
Hi MBrown2020,

As a novice watching this thread, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you that the 30-2475 works out for the best. I have some other thoughts I'll share:

* For April/May, and possibly beyond, realize the frequency on which Fox 11 broadcasts now will be changing (as part of the "TV Repack"). Both mrradiohead55--in the Green Bay thread reply to you--and rabbit73 above here mentioned this, but I wanted to point out that you might get things working great by the end of March, then go through a spell without reliable reception of WLUK Fox 11. Their signal will be moved from RF11 (RF = "real frequency") to RF12, so still on Hi-VHF. During that transition, they'll likely have times using an interim antenna, at lower power--and even off the air. Here in West Michigan, we still have two "full service/full power" stations on interim antennas since late fall, until their contracted tower crews can come back in the spring/summer/whenever to complete the permanent installations.

So don't get discouraged if come April it becomes problematic. (I'd say watch the Green Bay thread for others to post with interim versus permanent status updates.)


* Perhaps someone here has asked about possible FM station interference, from "second harmonics"? How close are you to any FM radio stations on frequencies 99 through 102? Or any other FM radio towers that are really close by?

Looks like Oshkosh does indeed have FM stations in the 99 to 102 range: https://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/lo...req=&sort=freq

Both your older Titan 2 CM-7778 and new Amplify 7777HD note including FM traps, but if you're really close to a tower, their suppression may not be enough.

When you tried the antenna outside attached to the ladder, did you have a chance to include one of the amps? That'd be a slight way to see if the FM trap may help. Otherwise acquiring a standalone FM trap may have merit. Amazon may not have any, but eBay does...and since the lone Hi-VHF signal you're trying for is in the double digits, any FM trap for TV reception will work. (In markets with signals on RF7 and RF8, one needs to be sure to get an FM Trap that suppresses right from 88 MHz on up, as some really only help from 92 MHz on. But those low-numbered FM signals aren't of great concern for you.)

Good luck! ~~ Statmanmi
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post #18090 of 18327 Old 02-25-2020, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MBrown2020 View Post
The Stellar Labs 30-2475 comes on Friday, So I will try that this weekend.


As a test today I mounted the Winegard YA-7000 to my extension ladder and put it outside my house about 13' up in the air and pointed it in the direction for Fox11. I then connected 35' coax to my HDHomerun. I had decent quality on all stations, but Fox 11 still cut out every 15-20 seconds and dipped for symbol quality. Outside above my roof still didn't get any better reception???? I'm starting to wonder if I just won't be able to get Fox 11 perfectly?? Doesn't seem to be any better than my current attic installation.
I went back and looked at the link for your Rabbit Ears report. I think you stand a very good chance for Fox 11 with the Stellar Labs 30-2475. That antenna has appreciably more gain than the YA-7000.
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