AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/)
-   HDTV Technical (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdtv-technical/)
-   -   Any recent 5th generation receiver chip news? (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdtv-technical/519678-any-recent-5th-generation-receiver-chip-news.html)

inky blacks 03-19-2005 11:24 AM

"Why would LG make the best current ATSC STBs (the LST-4200A, LST-3510A, LST3410A PVR) and not continue along the same path."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because they want to maximize their profits by forcing us to buy all new LG TVs, which do contain the new receiver chip. The sets containing the new chips were well advertised by LG and they should be out there by now or will arrive any day. I forget the model numbers, but they are their new LCD or LCOS rear projection models and some plasmas I believe. I didn't pay much attention to model names as I just bought a Toshiba last year and have no intention of buying a new TV. LG had press releases on the subject. At the same time they tell people they have no intention of releasing the new chip in a stand alone tuner. They have made their policy quite clear. Buy their TV, or go without a chip that works.

Please, folks, drop the TV format debate. It's pointless. We have our system and better chips will make it work. China, not Europe, has the best system coming on line because they started later and built on the work of others. But once you have a system you have to stick with it and we are not going to adopt the European or Chinese system. The one we have is good enough, we just need LG and others to sell us the correct receiver technology. Better to write LG letters than debate pointless issues here.

BTW, I do not believe the new stuff Bob Miller recently tested had the 5th chip in it at all. I think he was misled by some employee who did not know which chip is which.

IB

Nitewatchman 03-19-2005 11:31 AM

Quote:


Originally posted by trbarry
And yet in the last few years I don't think I've ever any of them ask "Are HDTV receivers good enough now to complete the transition?" or "Can we complete the digital transition without adequate indoor reception?".

The wheels of political and regulatory "progress" do at times seem to turn so slowly in some cases they can't keep up with the "DTV bus" ....

But I wonder if there is any chance we will at least have receivers(before analog shut off for instance) which comply with some sort of minimum receiver performance guidelines, such as ATSC "Receiver Performance Guidelines" A74 recommended practice?

There is article on it here (Although the article is very recent, I actually downloaded the A74 Document from ATSC site last June) :

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features...03.09.05.shtml

I also wonder if the CE manufacturers don't put workable receivers in sets or STB's if FCC might eventually require at least some minimum performance guidelines for receivers .... It seems like to me it might be a good idea, although I don't know if A74 is enough ...

I haven't heard much about it lately so am planning on spending part of my afternoon rereading some of comments submitted to FCC concerning receiver performance guidelines per Docket # 03-65. See http://wireless.fcc.gov/spectrum/pro....htm?proid=291

and/or input 03-65 under proceeding field here to access the comments from interested parties. The comments themselves are downloadable via the "view" links in the list of commenters/comments etc in PDF format : http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/comsrch_v2.cgi

Also here are links to a few good articles that also relate to the issue of DTV receiver performance:

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features...gital_tv.shtml

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features...rference.shtml

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features...01.19.05.shtml

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features...Behavior.shtml

William Smith 03-19-2005 11:39 AM

There is no debate (thanks to the FCC)...we are stuck with 8-VSB...

My point is that the truth was out there and people do want mobile services.. The broadcaster could have done both of those better than anyone but TPTB killed the future of the industry (Please don't tell me HD is the killer app.... look at what happened to Voom)..

My argument is that unless the receiver issue is fixed, the industry is at a standstill... With the high power mandate just around the corner, stations will start to really bleed red on their DTV services...just how much longer do we have to wait ..... and how much longer can broadcasters continue to financially shoulder most of the burden of this transition?

Stations spoke about their concerns about 8-VSB but the FCC didn't listen...

inky blacks 03-19-2005 12:49 PM

Th European system is no good at distance and is subject to interference from light switches, etc. Mobile TV is ridiculous and a bad thing for society. Passangers should enjoy the scenery when driving in a car and drivers should watch the road, not watching TV. The fact that some people want it just shows the lack of mental balance and poverty of spirit of the American public that always has to be entertained. The mind has to find peace it itself rather that constantly feeding itself input.

HDTV is the thing, and all TV should be in HDTV, and that will happen. It will be cheaper for stations when they do switch over and turn off their analog signal. They will have just one electric bill instead of two. You can look at it as an energy conservation measure.

The new chips make the debate about standards pointless. With full power and new chips I think 99% of the people will be happy with our system and surprised at how good it is.

IB

HDTVChallenged 03-19-2005 01:16 PM

Quote:


Originally posted by William Smith
(Please don't tell me HD is the killer app.... look at what happened to Voom)..

Ok ... I won't. But ... rest assured that the only reason I was/am interested in "digital" TV was as a way to get HDTV.

I'd be happy to have "mobile tv" in my car just as soon as we figure out how to make all cars and trucks and buses et al drive themselves and no longer require fossil fuels.

trbarry 03-19-2005 01:50 PM

Quote:


The new chips make the debate about standards pointless. With full power and new chips I think 99% of the people will be happy with our system and surprised at how good it is.

But we have all heard this before. Maybe it is true this time. Maybe it will be true next time. Or maybe it won't.

I personally feel like a fool for having sung the praises of the new LG/Zenith chips after reading a year ago about the successful Shubin tests.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me 6 times and I have serious cognitive problems!

- Tom

inky blacks 03-19-2005 03:37 PM

Tom,

I think you will be happy with the LG chip when you get one. I don't think you were fooled this last time.

IB

trbarry 03-19-2005 05:04 PM

Quote:


I think you will be happy with the LG chip when you get one. I don't think you were fooled this last time.

Do you have any information at all to base this on?

- Tom

inky blacks 03-19-2005 06:23 PM

Just the fact that Sinclair tested it extensively and liked it. I don't take Bob Miller's word for anything, and I do not think he has tested any recent 5th boxes because I don't think they exist. The chips are only in new TVs, not in boxes at this point, and low level LG employees and dealers, from my own experience, don't know what chip is what. Sinclair has tested and hated all the past boxes, but loved the ones with the 5th LG chips. They have no motive to get all happy about a new chip unless it really works. Sinclair have a proven track record of hating HDTV receiver chips. If they like this one, it must work!

IB

William Smith 03-19-2005 06:25 PM

Sorry IB,

Real world testing has revealed that the signals work to the same distance and both EXCEED the analog grade B coverage...

By using UHF instead of VHF-Lo the impulse noise (light switch) issue is moot..

inky blacks 03-19-2005 07:34 PM

Quote:


Originally posted by William Smith
Sorry IB,

Real world testing has revealed that the signals work to the same distance and both EXCEED the analog grade B coverage...

By using UHF instead of VHF-Lo the impulse noise (light switch) issue is moot..

That is not what the FCC found in tests and that is why they chose our system instead of the European system. They wanted the same coverage area as analog and the Euro system would not cut it. I have never seen any tests which support your claim.

IB

trbarry 03-19-2005 07:43 PM

Quote:


... and I do not think he has tested any recent 5th boxes because I don't think they exist.
.
.
.
Sinclair has tested and hated all the past boxes, but loved the ones with the 5th LG chips.

Do the darn things exist or not? And do you now trust Sinclair because they say the (non-existent) boxes perform well and distrust Bob because he says they don't?

Again, if the darn things do exist and work properly then when the heck will someone sell one of them to me? It is futile to debate the properties of non-existent boxes.

And after five generations it seems foolish to just accept vendor promises.

- Tom

inky blacks 03-20-2005 12:30 AM

Sinclair tested a LG demo box, which was a 4th chip receiver with the new 5th chip stuck in. There are no 5th boxes for sale according to LG, and they have no plans to release any soon. The chips do exist and are or will soon be available in LG TVs soon. LG must have a warehouse full of 4th chips they want to sell first, and in the mean time force people to buy their new TVs with 5th chip installed. I am sure they will sell 5th chip OTA boxes in the future, but only when LG feels it will profit them the most.

IB

William Smith 03-20-2005 01:19 PM

IB,
For the record..

The test the FCC supported ( endorsed by MSTV and ATSC) used a COFDM transmitter monitor with no channel filter to compensate for 6 MHz. channels instead of 8. Literally within hours of the release of test results, Sinclair took an off the shelf DVB decoder( with a modified IF filter for 6 MHz.)to each location that failed using COFDM and were able to receive the signal. So many engineers hit the web to get the product information for the COFDM transmitter monitor that site was revised with a notice that the product was not to be used for off-air testing as it did not have proper filtering..

All this was presented to the FCC... its in the record..

As are the reception demonstrations preformed for both the House and Senate Commerce committees.

Ken H 03-20-2005 01:33 PM

Quote:


Originally posted by sregener
I'll end up buying their competitor's product because they're leaving me out to dry.

Honestly, this is a short-sighted, stupid decision on LG's part.

100% correct.

LG will regret this decision, because their competition will eat their lunch.

panictivo 03-20-2005 02:04 PM

Here is a link to the Sinclair LG 5G press release (from LG's web site):

SINCLAIR PLEASED WITH PROGRESS IN DTV RECEIVER TECHNOLOGY [June 8, 2004]

William Smith 03-20-2005 05:04 PM

Wait a couple of weeks...

DTV TiVo Dealer 03-20-2005 05:33 PM

Quote:


Originally posted by William Smith
Wait a couple of weeks...

Wait for what?

-Robert

wildwillie6 03-21-2005 05:08 AM

"Why would LG make the best current ATSC STBs (the LST-4200A, LST-3510A, LST3410A PVR) and not continue along the same path."

I think the PVR is actually the key to this . . . I've come to realize that in the long term I don't want a set-top box at all, since getting it to record onto VHS or DVD is such a hassle (leave it on, set to the right channel, set recorder to "line in," etc.), and leaves you with lower than HD resolution after all that.

Supposedly taking one of those $250 HDTV receiver cards (MDP-130) and dropping it into a $300 low-end computer is the best way to get an HDTV recorder now, and it's supposedly "fifth generation" . . . but I can't help thinking that if it's true, some manufacturer will do the equivalent, better than I could, and sell it for $500.

Any day now?

Rich Peterson 03-21-2005 05:36 AM

Quote:


Originally posted by William Smith
Wait a couple of weeks...

What is that supposed to mean??? Could it be the childish attitude of "I know something you don't know but I'm not telling..."?

Please...tell the whole story or skip the teasers.

William Smith 03-21-2005 07:27 AM

Wait until Sinclair has a chance to test this unit... the information you reference was dated last summer and was based on the prototype decoder.



Here is the info from the top of the demod chip itself...

5th Generation
VSB/QAM Receiver
LG Electronics Inc.
LGDT3303
0421

I have asked for a photo of the decoder chip so you can't accuse me of faking it..

DTV TiVo Dealer 03-21-2005 09:27 AM

At the January '05 CES show, other than my usual meetings with sales and sales management, I had the opportunity to spend time with the Korean STB engineers. We spoke in broken English about the American market, CableCard access and 5th generation ATSC tuners.

One of the lessons I took from our meeting is that it's these Korean product managers and engineers who are the major decision makers on what and which products come to the market and when. With the moderate sales volume of ATSC STBs, which are also low priced, they are not highly motivated to quickly develop and manufacture ATSC STBs. I understand they are working on the final stages of one or more 5th generation ATSC STBs, but as with all companies, future product development information is very limited.

I don't see this as a grad plan to sell more LG HDTVs. I encourage everyone I speak with at LG to build 5th generation STB ASAP. LG is well known a a pioneer blazing the road with new inviiative advanced digital technology in everything they build. In fact, the LST-4200A has some enhanced circutity which makes it perform much like the 5th generation receivers.

Today I have personally written to LG about the delayed delivery of the LG 5th generation ATSC STBs and I will post any response I receive from LG.

If you don't buy LG products purely based on the information I have read here you are making a mistake buy passing on the best quality and valued consumer electronics available.

-Robert

robert123 03-21-2005 09:43 AM

Quote:


Originally posted by inky blacks
"Why would LG make the best current ATSC STBs (the LST-4200A, LST-3510A, LST3410A PVR) and not continue along the same path."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because they want to maximize their profits by forcing us to buy all new LG TVs, which do contain the new receiver chip.

I assume this is simply your guess as to their reasoning. I have some other more plausible guesses. Perhaps production quantities are insufficient to supply the new chips to use in their new TVs, fulfill any existing contracts (was there not news that they were going to supply US Digital with the 5th gen chip?), AND make their own STB. Perhaps given the market conditions (rapidly dropping prices of STBs), they do not feel it would be profitable to manufacture a STB using the 5th gen chip at this time. Sales of STBs have not set the world on fire. Note that the LST-4200A is being discontinued mid-year, only the LST-3410A and LST-3510A will remain in production.

Robert

sregener 03-21-2005 12:34 PM

Quote:


Originally posted by William Smith
My argument is that unless the receiver issue is fixed, the industry is at a standstill... With the high power mandate just around the corner, stations will start to really bleed red on their DTV services...

Okay, time to put our money where our mouths are. I just took a bunch of freeze-frames of my reception, both digital and analog. I posted the results here:

http://www.geocities.com/Figbert/8vsb.html

8VSB works. Really. My 4th-generation Zenith chipset seems to prove it.

DTV TiVo Dealer 03-21-2005 12:51 PM

Which model STB or HDTV are you using with the 4th generation chip set?

Your analysis of close and distant reliable reception seems to support my post listed two up from yours.

-Robert

William Smith 03-21-2005 12:53 PM

I can drive down the street with a portable TV and at least listen to television ( if not watch it) .. try that with 8-VSB. remember with DTV no lock means no video or audio.


Don't get me wrong I never said 8-VSB didn't work.. I have said I don't think it was the best choice and its going to take a lot of work to make it perform to people's expectations in the real world.

I hope CEA is up to the task... but I have been bit by the 5th gen receiver promise... and there is little to no push to establish basic receiver performance standards.. so yes I am skeptical...


Barton has closed the door on any modulation changes as they feel (based on the performance of a $300 RCA set) the signal does replicate NTSC..

Case Closed...

elicross 03-21-2005 12:55 PM

Quote:


Originally posted by inky blacks
"Why would LG make the best current ATSC STBs (the LST-4200A, LST-3510A, LST3410A PVR) and not continue along the same path."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because they want to maximize their profits by forcing us to buy all new LG TVs, which do contain the new receiver chip.

That would assume that anyone other than people in this forum knows what the hell a 5th generation chip is. Most people think that DVDs or any other wide screen signal are high definition. I'll bet if you asked a person on the street what ATSC is, they'd think it was some sort of government program. To know that you're in a multipath-prone region, and that a 5th generation chip set will help you pull in your ATSC signals indicates a level of knowledge that a corporation cannot count on to sell their products.

It's more likely that they are trying not to undercut the sales on the 4200A which is only about (how long?) six months into its sales cycle with news of a better STB that is more than six months away from hitting the stores. Why harm your present sales with news of a future release?

In any case, there is no one forcing anyone to do anything. There are a lot of drawbacks to a market-based economy, but one of the good things is where a consumer spends his/her money on luxuries is up to the consumer. This is TV and not a hospital bill.

sregener 03-21-2005 01:08 PM

Quote:


Originally posted by DTV TiVo Dealer
Which model STB or HDTV are you using with the 4th generation chip set?

Your analysis of close and distant reliable reception seems to support my post listed two up from yours.

Zenith C32V37

I don't disagree with most of what you've posted. I'm a little less "enthusiastic" about LG after their decision not to put 5th-generation chipsets in STBs, especially since they initially announced that they would be available 2nd quarter 05.

DTV TiVo Dealer 03-21-2005 01:08 PM

I want LG to make 5th generation STB as much, if not more than anyone. However, lets not forget that we have an excellent 4th generation STB already available now.

Further, considering that permanently mounted, fixed, home/commercial ATSC usage is by far the most popular.

Better antenna design development can help improve 8VSB ATSC reception in the limited applications where it's needed.

I believe even the limited in-motion ATSC market can benefit by new mobile multi-directional narrow beam receptor antenna that will select the best signal and reject all others.

-Robert

DTV TiVo Dealer 03-21-2005 01:14 PM

Quote:


Originally posted by sregener
Zenith C32V37

I don't disagree with most of what you've posted. I'm a little less "enthusiastic" about LG after their decision not to put 5th-generation chipsets in STBs, especially since they initially announced that they would be available 2nd quarter 05.

LG will produce it's 5th generation ATSC STB, it's just not coming as fast as we and LG would like. As Robert123 wisely said it's not LG top priority plus new advance digital product development is frequently delayed by most manufacturers. The DIRECTV HD DVR came out more than 1 full year after DIRECTV promised it.

-Robert


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:26 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.