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post #61 of 117 Old 07-21-2008, 09:56 AM
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In terms of the color, brightness, gamma controls...

What is considered "neutral". The control panel is defaulting to alot of add values. I simply want straight un-modified signal so my calibrated TV can do the rest

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post #62 of 117 Old 07-21-2008, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjchmura View Post

In terms of the color, brightness, gamma controls...

What is considered "neutral". The control panel is defaulting to alot of add values. I simply want straight un-modified signal so my calibrated TV can do the rest

default everything.

And for grey levels you want 16-235 that is the native colorspace for video.
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post #63 of 117 Old 07-21-2008, 01:38 PM
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anyone want to share their custom timings for 24p? I just need some help getting started. thanks
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post #64 of 117 Old 07-21-2008, 08:30 PM
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sotti:..

How do you know what "default" is? There is no "reset" button on my control panel?

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post #65 of 117 Old 07-21-2008, 11:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjchmura View Post

sotti:..

How do you know what "default" is? There is no "reset" button on my control panel?

There is a URL style link at the top right hand corner.
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post #66 of 117 Old 07-22-2008, 12:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjchmura View Post

sotti:..

How do you know what "default" is? There is no "reset" button on my control panel?

application prefrence.
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post #67 of 117 Old 07-22-2008, 01:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkanet View Post

Right, I agree. Which is why I asked the other person who had a greenish tint on his display. The latest Nvidia hardware and respective WHQL tested drivers at their defaults were meant to show correctly on reference quality displays. If it was showing correctly before and not showing correctly now, it's likely due to the display is not calibrated for reference colorspace and brightness/contrast/tint.

I calibrated my monitor for desktop (with an ICC profile via a Spyder2) and the colours and greyscale look almost perfect when viewing the usual monitor test jpg files.

When viewing video material with PowerDVD 7.3, there is a slight greenish cast with the older 163.16 drivers but I can live with it. I haven't yet found a way to calibrate the video separately as the desktop uses a profile loaded with Windows and there doesn't seem to be an equivalent for video. About the only thing I could try is to adjust the RGB Gamma controls separately in the video area to see if I can null it out.

However, when I use the 177.66 drivers, the greenish cast is more pronounced with video, although the desktop is still perfectly fine and accurate with the previous profile loaded. PQ is also softened and there is obvious loss of fine detail compared with the earlier drivers.

The only thing that has changed is the drivers.

My guess is that HA is doing something different with the newer drivers than the old: utilising a hard-coded NR step for example.

Please explain how I can "calibrate the display for reference colorspace and brightness/contrast/tint", for video, when these parameters are not available in the Nvidia CPL. I've calibrated for the desktop and that is as close to perfect as I require, but video is way off.
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post #68 of 117 Old 07-24-2008, 04:50 AM
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I installed this on both HTPCs and the problem is solved!
For me the 16-235 option works best on both the plasma and the Sony G70 PJ.

Now BTB is there in all apps.
SCHWEET!

-Raj
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post #69 of 117 Old 07-24-2008, 04:57 AM
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Sorry for a noob question but what's the best way to test which is better for video playback on my plasma? Play a fairly dark scene and see whether the detail is there, or should it be obvious?
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post #70 of 117 Old 07-24-2008, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by fraggermcg View Post

Sorry for a noob question but what's the best way to test which is better for video playback on my plasma? Play a fairly dark scene and see whether the detail is there, or should it be obvious?

best method would be with a pluge pattern like the THX logo on a "THX DVD"
You want the THX visisible and the shadow to blend with the background.
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post #71 of 117 Old 07-24-2008, 11:07 AM
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Pardon my ignorant. How do you know if it is your video card or your TV that needs calibrating?
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post #72 of 117 Old 07-24-2008, 01:15 PM
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Pardon my ignorant. How do you know if it is your video card or your TV that needs calibrating?

always the TV.
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post #73 of 117 Old 07-25-2008, 08:27 PM
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I just upgraded from an Nvidia 8000 series card to an ATI 4000 series card, and I have finally found a solution to the video level/black crush issues when using an ATI card connected to a HDTV. If you run an ATI card, look here for more info. I know this doesn't help Nvidia users right off the bat, BUT I wonder if ATI's DVI->HDMI dongle would do the compression on Nvidia cards, too. If it does, you're in luck!!! My post has more info.
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post #74 of 117 Old 07-25-2008, 08:36 PM
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Looks like your timing was pretty bad. As this driver already fixes the problem some people were complaining about.


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Originally Posted by PhaedrusGalt View Post

I just upgraded from an Nvidia 8000 series card to an ATI 4000 series card, and I have finally found a solution to the video level/black crush issues when using an ATI card connected to a HDTV. If you run an ATI card, look here for more info. I know this doesn't help Nvidia users right off the bat, BUT I wonder if ATI's DVI->HDMI dongle would do the compression on Nvidia cards, too. If it does, you're in luck!!! My post has more info.

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post #75 of 117 Old 07-25-2008, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by mkanet View Post

Looks like your timing was pretty bad. As this driver already fixes the problem some people were complaining about.

Not exactly. I used that 'fix'on my NVIDIA 8800 GTS 640 MB - it only works for movies and video, it does not work PC games, the desktop, digital images, etc. In fact, look where the option is located in the NVIDIA control panel - under the 'video' settings. It did work for video, thankfully, but games and everything else had the same colorspace problems.

Also, I bought the ATI 4870 because I was building a new, second computer and wanted something affordable that could still run newer games. The fact that ATI has finally, fully resolved the color space issue for me was a completely welcome surprise.
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post #76 of 117 Old 07-25-2008, 09:41 PM
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I really hate to be the one to break it to you... but it sounds like your display needs to be calibrated. Youre not supposed to limit the quality of your Windows desktop, pictures, games to 16-235; as they have native PC levels of 0-255; and, should not be modified from this. There was an issue for video levels for some people (mainly in VMC) not displaying video content at (16-235). See... http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=69836 But that's been addressed now.

Edit: Optionally, some people prefer to see a bigger range in colors in their video by overriding 16-235 video levels to 0-255; this new feature will allow for this too.

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Originally Posted by PhaedrusGalt View Post

Not exactly. I used that 'fix'on my NVIDIA 8800 GTS 640 MB - it only works for movies and video, it does not work PC games, the desktop, digital images, etc. In fact, look where the option is located in the NVIDIA control panel - under the 'video' settings. It did work for video, thankfully, but games and everything else had the same colorspace problems.

Also, I bought the ATI 4870 because I was building a new, second computer and wanted something affordable that could still run newer games. The fact that ATI has finally, fully resolved the color space issue for me was a completely welcome surprise.

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post #77 of 117 Old 07-25-2008, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by mkanet View Post

I really hate to be the one to break it to you... but it sounds like your display needs to be calibrated. Youre not supposed to limit the quality of your Windows desktop, pictures, games to 16-235; as they have native PC levels of 0-255; and, should not be modified from this. There was an issue for video levels for some people (mainly in VMC) not displaying video content at (16-235). See... http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=69836 But that's been addressed now.

Edit: Optionally, some people prefer to see a bigger range in colors in their video by overriding 16-235 video levels to 0-255; this new feature will allow for this too.


I'm sorry my friend, but you do not understand the issue. Computer and computer monitors use the RGB color space 0-255, with 0 being the blackest you can get, and 255 being the whitest you can get. So the Windows desktop, digital photos on your Linux box, PC games - all of it - is sent out from the video card at RGB 0-255. This is exactly what we want, because generally, computers are connected to computer monitors. Thus, computer monitors know that when the computer says "set pixel 13x,19y to (0,0,0)", that it should display pure black at that pixel. Same for (255,255,255), onl now were displaying pure white.

Everything else - televisions, broadcast TV, vcrs, dvd players, blu-players, all of them work in the RGB color space 16-235, with 16 being the blackest you can get, and 235 being the whitest you can get. So when your digital cable box wants to tell your LCD television to set pixel 13x,19y to the absolute darkest it can get, it says, "set pixel 13x, 19y to (16,16,16)" - this is pure black. Likewise, your dvd player tells your TV "set pixel 13x, 19y to (235,235)" to set that pixel to pure white.

The problem is when these two worlds collide.

All DVD's and blu-ray discs are encoded in the 'everything else' color space of 16*235. When you play such a video on your PC, and your PC is connected to a COMPUTER monitor, the picture is, by default, incorrect. See, your dvd software decodes the image and tells the video card, "set pixel 13x, 19y to (16,16,16)", thinking that your display will then set that pixel to pure black. However, being a computer monitor, (16,16,16) is only 'sort of' black, not pure black, and thus you will not get the level of darkness or brightness that the video producer's intended. Now, smart DVD software will take the 16-235 color space, expand it to 0-255 (by subdividing the PC world of 255 levels of brightness to such that 16 is now set to 0, 235 is now set to 255, and everything else is linearly scaled inbetween). When this occurs, your DVD may say set pixel 13x, 19y to (16,16,16), but what it really means is set that pixel to pure black - by expanding the color space to PC levels, the computer monitor will display the image correctly.

However, HTPC users often buy HDTV's, like my Toshiba 42RV530U, to get a 1080p display for pc games, putting on picture shows, showing movies, etc. Here's the real problem. Windows desktop, pc games, digital images - basically everything except most forms of video - are encoded in the 0-255 color space. So when your HDTV receives the message, "set pixel 13x, 19y to (0,0,0)", it interprets that as outside of the 16-235 color space IT uses, and will simply clip the color's brightness at 16. Likewise, ALL data between (0,0,0) and (16,16,16) will be displayed on your HDTV as the exact same brightness - 16/pure black. So when your windows PC says, "set pixel 13x, 19y to (16,16,16)", it means set that pixel to sort-of black, but not pure black - your HDTV, however, sets this to pitch black. Thus all of the gradations in blackness/darkness between (0,0,0) and (16,16,16) are crushed together, thus we have the Black Crush phenomenon. A similar thing happens with whites and degress of whiteness.

But it's even more complex. Let's say you are watching a DVD again. The DVD is encoded on the disc at 16-235, but your dvd software is smart (as we mentioned earlier) and knows that you're running a computer, and so expands the color space of the DVD to computer levels 0-255. So again, your PC is sending out computer levels that are clipped, thus giving a Black Crush to all of your movies.

So what you really want to happen is to either: have the PC ONLY output 0-255, and have a toggle switch on the HDTV so that it interprets RGB values on that DVI/HDMI line at computer levels and thus properly displays images, OR you want your PC to compress EVERYTHING, and output 16-235, and then all TV's, including HDTV's will properly display it at their natural 16-235 color space. Unfortunately, this doesn't always happen.

For instance, on my previous setup, my NVIDIA card would send everything except video out at 0-255 color space, but my HDTV, which does not have a color space toggle, would clip the color space to 16-235, and thus crush blacks. However, some software video players that were NOT smart would take the DVD or blu-ray data at 16-235, and send THAT out of the video card, rather than expand the data to 0-255 computer levels. In those cases, the movies would look correct on your HDTV, but ironically, they would look 'washed out' on your COMPUTER monitor (which thinks (16,16,16) is only sort of black, whereas the video means it to be pure black). So this is the WORST situation - your PC is sending data out in TWO color spaces, and so your HDTV must either have a switch that you toggle to 16-235 for movies on your PC, and 0-255 for everything else on your PC. If it does not, then you're in trouble. If you calibrate your HDTV for video levels (16-235), then all of your computer games, web browsing, etc. will be black crushed, though your videos will be fine. If, on the other hand, you calibrate your video levels for the PC when it's using the 0-255 levels (say, during a video game), then your movies will look gray where they should be black. (NOTE: it is not actually possible to calibrate an HDTV that ONLY does 16-235 color space to PC levels of 0-255, though you can come somewhat close. Here are the details on that - look at the area in bold).

So what did NVIDIA do? NVIDIA provides a color space toggle in their control panel - that ONLY applies to video - and thus you could have your PC send 16-235 color space data to your 16-235 color space HDTV, and all is well. The problem is that again, your PC will still send out 0-255 for everything else, and thus everything else will be black crushed. I assume they'll eventually put a global toggle into the control panel, and the issue will be resolved completely.

So what did ATI do? ATI has a DVI->HDMI dongle - which is what most people use when they connect their HTPC to their HDTV - this dongle is special in that it will compress all 0-255 color space data down to 16-235. Thus your windows desktop, your web browser, your Counter Strike source, which were all rendered in 0-255 color space and sent out of your video card like that, were rescued form the black crush by the dongle which compresses (NOT clips) the colors to the proper 16-235 color space that your HDTV understands. However, there's one more gotcha: if you are once again using dumb dvd software that does not first expand the video levels of DVD and blu-ray videos, then you will have grayed out blacks (the opposite of black crush). The reason is, these dumb dvd players, not recognizing that this a PC, will attempt (successfully) to send the video data out of the video card in the 16-235 color space, with 16 being pure black and 235 being pure white, but your DVI->HDMI dongle, which assumes everything coming from the PC is in computer color space, will compres the 16-235 color space of the video down EVEN FURTHER. So the dongle sees 16 and thinks "this is a PC, so 16 means sort-of black, so I will compress this to 25, which the HDTV thinks sort-of black is". Then all of your video's blacks will be gray, whites won't be as white, colors will look like crap.

Finally, what is the solution for ATI users who use the DVI->HDMI dongle to connect to HDTV's? EXPAND EVERYTHING to 0-255. You want your PC to use the 0-255 color space for everything, including expanding video levels from 16-235 to 0-255. By doing this, we achieve what is CRUCIAL to solving this problem: consistency. By consistently using 0 to mean pure black and 255 to mean pure white, the DVI->HDMI dongle can compress this accurately down to the color space where 16 is pure black and 235 is pure white, and thus the problem is solved. OR, the alternative here for all users, is to again EXPAND EVERYTHING to 0-255, but then use an HDTV that lets you set the color space to PC levels and correctly interprets 0 as pure black instead of its native mode of interpreting 16 as pure black.

PLAYSTATION 3 OWNERS
As PS3 owners know, there is an option in the console's dashboard (or whatever they call it) that lets you set your RGB color mode to FULL or LIMITED, which are code words for PC levels (0-255) or 'everything else' levels (16-235). The reason Sony provides this feature is because, though most users have their PS3 connected to a standard television or HDTV, and thus can use the LIMITED RGB color space (the default), some PS3 users connect, via VGA or DVI, to a COMPUTER monitor, which needs data in the PC colorspace of 0-255, whic the PS3 refers to as FULL.

This was a stupid naming convention on Sony's part, because many users see the word 'limited', think it means 'worse', and select 'full' RGB, thinking they'll get a better picture from their PS3. Instead, if they are using a regular TV/HDTV (as 90%+ are), they will just end up introducing the Black Crush to their setup. Likewise, if they set the output to LIMITED and use the PS3 with a computer monitor, they will get the graying of blacks and bad color production over all.


mkanet, I cannot say it any clearer than this. I typed all of this out because I hate when people have high-end gear but can't take advantage of it because of stupid things like the PC industry not using the 'everything else' color space. If anyone has any questions, or wants to verify that their setup is coordinating color spaces properly, just send me a private message and I'll be glad to help out. I lose sleep when you don't get the perfect HTPC image quality you deserve .
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post #78 of 117 Old 07-25-2008, 11:27 PM
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We are talking about the same thing. The difference is that on a 0-255 calibrated PC display, with the latest Nvidia display driver, everything will show as 0-255 except videos (which are almost always encoded at 16-235). These videos are correctly converted to show correctly on a display calibrated for 0-255. At least, that seems to be the whole point for this new feature (making both worlds show correctly on one PC display.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhaedrusGalt View Post

I'm sorry my friend, but you do not understand the issue. Computer and computer monitors use the RGB color space 0-255, with 0 being the blackest you can get, and 255 being the whitest you can get. So the Windows desktop, digital photos on your Linux box, PC games - all of it - is sent out from the video card at RGB 0-255. This is exactly what we want, because generally, computers are connected to computer monitors. Thus, computer monitors know that when the computer says "set pixel 13x,19y to (0,0,0)", that it should display pure black at that pixel. Same for (255,255,255), onl now were displaying pure white.

Everything else - televisions, broadcast TV, vcrs, dvd players, blu-players, all of them work in the RGB color space 16-235, with 16 being the blackest you can get, and 235 being the whitest you can get. So when your digital cable box wants to tell your LCD television to set pixel 13x,19y to the absolute darkest it can get, it says, "set pixel 13x, 19y to (16,16,16)" - this is pure black. Likewise, your dvd player tells your TV "set pixel 13x, 19y to (235,235)" to set that pixel to pure white.

The problem is when these two worlds collide.

All DVD's and blu-ray discs are encoded in the 'everything else' color space of 16*235. When you play such a video on your PC, and your PC is connected to a COMPUTER monitor, the picture is, by default, incorrect. See, your dvd software decodes the image and tells the video card, "set pixel 13x, 19y to (16,16,16)", thinking that your display will then set that pixel to pure black. However, being a computer monitor, (16,16,16) is only 'sort of' black, not pure black, and thus you will not get the level of darkness or brightness that the video producer's intended. Now, smart DVD software will take the 16-235 color space, expand it to 0-255 (by subdividing the PC world of 255 levels of brightness to such that 16 is now set to 0, 235 is now set to 255, and everything else is linearly scaled inbetween). When this occurs, your DVD may say set pixel 13x, 19y to (16,16,16), but what it really means is set that pixel to pure black - by expanding the color space to PC levels, the computer monitor will display the image correctly.

However, HTPC users often buy HDTV's, like my Toshiba 42RV530U, to get a 1080p display for pc games, putting on picture shows, showing movies, etc. Here's the real problem. Windows desktop, pc games, digital images - basically everything except most forms of video - are encoded in the 0-255 color space. So when your HDTV receives the message, "set pixel 13x, 19y to (0,0,0)", it interprets that as outside of the 16-235 color space IT uses, and will simply clip the color's brightness at 16. Likewise, ALL data between (0,0,0) and (16,16,16) will be displayed on your HDTV as the exact same brightness - 16/pure black. So when your windows PC says, "set pixel 13x, 19y to (16,16,16)", it means set that pixel to sort-of black, but not pure black - your HDTV, however, sets this to pitch black. Thus all of the gradations in blackness/darkness between (0,0,0) and (16,16,16) are crushed together, thus we have the Black Crush phenomenon. A similar thing happens with whites and degress of whiteness.

But it's even more complex. Let's say you are watching a DVD again. The DVD is encoded on the disc at 16-235, but your dvd software is smart (as we mentioned earlier) and knows that you're running a computer, and so expands the color space of the DVD to computer levels 0-255. So again, your PC is sending out computer levels that are clipped, thus giving a Black Crush to all of your movies.

So what you really want to happen is to either: have the PC ONLY output 0-255, and have a toggle switch on the HDTV so that it interprets RGB values on that DVI/HDMI line at computer levels and thus properly displays images, OR you want your PC to compress EVERYTHING, and output 16-235, and then all TV's, including HDTV's will properly display it at their natural 16-235 color space. Unfortunately, this doesn't always happen.

For instance, on my previous setup, my NVIDIA card would send everything except video out at 0-255 color space, but my HDTV, which does not have a color space toggle, would clip the color space to 16-235, and thus crush blacks. However, some software video players that were NOT smart would take the DVD or blu-ray data at 16-235, and send THAT out of the video card, rather than expand the data to 0-255 computer levels. In those cases, the movies would look correct on your HDTV, but ironically, they would look 'washed out' on your COMPUTER monitor (which thinks (16,16,16) is only sort of black, whereas the video means it to be pure black). So this is the WORST situation - your PC is sending data out in TWO color spaces, and so your HDTV must either have a switch that you toggle to 16-235 for movies on your PC, and 0-255 for everything else on your PC. If it does not, then you're in trouble. If you calibrate your HDTV for video levels (16-235), then all of your computer games, web browsing, etc. will be black crushed, though your videos will be fine. If, on the other hand, you calibrate your video levels for the PC when it's using the 0-255 levels (say, during a video game), then your movies will look gray where they should be black. (NOTE: it is not actually possible to calibrate an HDTV that ONLY does 16-235 color space to PC levels of 0-255, though you can come somewhat close. Here are the details on that - look at the area in bold).

So what did NVIDIA do? NVIDIA provides a color space toggle in their control panel - that ONLY applies to video - and thus you could have your PC send 16-235 color space data to your 16-235 color space HDTV, and all is well. The problem is that again, your PC will still send out 0-255 for everything else, and thus everything else will be black crushed. I assume they'll eventually put a global toggle into the control panel, and the issue will be resolved completely.

So what did ATI do? ATI has a DVI->HDMI dongle - which is what most people use when they connect their HTPC to their HDTV - this dongle is special in that it will compress all 0-255 color space data down to 16-235. Thus your windows desktop, your web browser, your Counter Strike source, which were all rendered in 0-255 color space and sent out of your video card like that, were rescued form the black crush by the dongle which compresses (NOT clips) the colors to the proper 16-235 color space that your HDTV understands. However, there's one more gotcha: if you are once again using dumb dvd software that does not first expand the video levels of DVD and blu-ray videos, then you will have grayed out blacks (the opposite of black crush). The reason is, these dumb dvd players, not recognizing that this a PC, will attempt (successfully) to send the video data out of the video card in the 16-235 color space, with 16 being pure black and 235 being pure white, but your DVI->HDMI dongle, which assumes everything coming from the PC is in computer color space, will compres the 16-235 color space of the video down EVEN FURTHER. So the dongle sees 16 and thinks "this is a PC, so 16 means sort-of black, so I will compress this to 25, which the HDTV thinks sort-of black is". Then all of your video's blacks will be gray, whites won't be as white, colors will look like crap.

Finally, what is the solution for ATI users who use the DVI->HDMI dongle to connect to HDTV's? EXPAND EVERYTHING to 0-255. You want your PC to use the 0-255 color space for everything, including expanding video levels from 16-235 to 0-255. By doing this, we achieve what is CRUCIAL to solving this problem: consistency. By consistently using 0 to mean pure black and 255 to mean pure white, the DVI->HDMI dongle can compress this accurately down to the color space where 16 is pure black and 235 is pure white, and thus the problem is solved. OR, the alternative here for all users, is to again EXPAND EVERYTHING to 0-255, but then use an HDTV that lets you set the color space to PC levels and correctly interprets 0 as pure black instead of its native mode of interpreting 16 as pure black.

PLAYSTATION 3 OWNERS
As PS3 owners know, there is an option in the console's dashboard (or whatever they call it) that lets you set your RGB color mode to FULL or LIMITED, which are code words for PC levels (0-255) or 'everything else' levels (16-235). The reason Sony provides this feature is because, though most users have their PS3 connected to a standard television or HDTV, and thus can use the LIMITED RGB color space (the default), some PS3 users connect, via VGA or DVI, to a COMPUTER monitor, which needs data in the PC colorspace of 0-255, whic the PS3 refers to as FULL.

This was a stupid naming convention on Sony's part, because many users see the word 'limited', think it means 'worse', and select 'full' RGB, thinking they'll get a better picture from their PS3. Instead, if they are using a regular TV/HDTV (as 90%+ are), they will just end up introducing the Black Crush to their setup. Likewise, if they set the output to LIMITED and use the PS3 with a computer monitor, they will get the graying of blacks and bad color production over all.


mkanet, I cannot say it any clearer than this. I typed all of this out because I hate when people have high-end gear but can't take advantage of it because of stupid things like the PC industry not using the 'everything else' color space. If anyone has any questions, or wants to verify that their setup is coordinating color spaces properly, just send me a private message and I'll be glad to help out. I lose sleep when you don't get the perfect HTPC image quality you deserve .

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post #79 of 117 Old 07-25-2008, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by mkanet View Post

We are talking about the same thing. The difference is that on a 0-255 calibrated PC display, with the latest Nvidia display driver, everything will show as 0-255 except videos (which are almost always encoded at 16-235). These videos are correctly converted to show correctly on a display calibrated for 0-255. At least, that seems to be the whole point for this new feature (making both worlds show correctly on one PC display.

But that's the whole point - as you say, NVIDIA is expanding everything, and now even lets you expand video - BUT if you are using an HDTV, as most people on this HTPC forum are, you DON'T want expanded, you want compressed. Most people's HDTVs only work in 16-235; few have the toggle option. So with NVIDIA's new driver and a regular 1080P HDTV, when you set the video to expanded levels, you are correct - EVERYTHING will look great on a computer display. But again, this is an HTPC forum, most people aren't using computer monitors, they're using commerical HDTV's that will put the Black Crush on ALL NVIDIA data. In fact, it's that you can leave video in LIMITED/16-235 mode with the new drivers that's good - it's a step in the right direction. Now HTPC users can at least have their videos look correct. Everything else will be black crushed, but videos will look great.


So yes, if you use a computer monitor, NVIDIA's solution is perfect. If you have an HDTV, you're S.O.L. for now (unless you buy a DVI->HDMI dongle that compresses PC levels to Video levels, but again, I've only seen this once, with the ATI dongle AND when I used that ATI dongle with my NVIDIA card, it did NOT appear to compress the stream, so the ATI card must be instructing the dongle to compress, when it's default is to leave the signal untouched).
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post #80 of 117 Old 07-25-2008, 11:47 PM
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Also, mkanet, I'm really glad you brought this up, because my NVIDIA card is now connected to a standard LCD computer monitor (PC levels), so I better toggle the expansion option in the NVIDIA control panel so I don't get grayed out colors in movies (or rather, so my wife doesn't).

Thanks!
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post #81 of 117 Old 07-25-2008, 11:54 PM
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I'm presuming most people have displays capable of a 0-255 PC input. Mine does. I dont know about all "HDTV's" out there, but i know for a fact many have inputs/colorspace settings specificaly for PC input.

Edit: Hopefully, now you can understand why my thinking was that this problem was fixed (as a lot of people do). But, you're right, I didnt think that there might be some displays that aren't intended for PC input.

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But that's the whole point - as you say, NVIDIA is expanding everything, and now even lets you expand video - BUT if you are using an HDTV, as most people on this HTPC forum are, you DON'T want expanded, you want compressed. Most people's HDTVs only work in 16-235; few have the toggle option. So with NVIDIA's new driver and a regular 1080P HDTV, when you set the video to expanded levels, you are correct - EVERYTHING will look great on a computer display. But again, this is an HTPC forum, most people aren't using computer monitors, they're using commerical HDTV's that will put the Black Crush on ALL NVIDIA data. In fact, it's that you can leave video in LIMITED/16-235 mode with the new drivers that's good - it's a step in the right direction. Now HTPC users can at least have their videos look correct. Everything else will be black crushed, but videos will look great.


So yes, if you use a computer monitor, NVIDIA's solution is perfect. If you have an HDTV, you're S.O.L. for now (unless you buy a DVI->HDMI dongle that compresses PC levels to Video levels, but again, I've only seen this once, with the ATI dongle AND when I used that ATI dongle with my NVIDIA card, it did NOT appear to compress the stream, so the ATI card must be instructing the dongle to compress, when it's default is to leave the signal untouched).

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post #82 of 117 Old 07-26-2008, 12:58 AM
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Wow this made my day; however, now I am more confused on this than I thought I have been for the past year (even with PhaedrusGalt's insightful post.) Can someone please help?

My System:
-Pioneer Kuro 5010FD (DVI->HDMI in; can be set to an input of 0-255 or 16-235)
-8600 GT (Winfast PX8600 [has HDMI, but using DVI out...not buying a long HDMI cable until I buy an HDMI receiver!])
-PowerDVD 7.3 on Vista x86 (and PowerDVD 8 on Vista 64x but I generally use the former.) (Plus various other apps for regular Dvd's etc, but I am mainly concerned about HiDef because of the lack of HwAccel control.)

Note: assume I have no problem at all changing modes for the obvious 0-255 PC application colorspace (I'll simply program macros/Garmin/Harmony codes if I need to...)

Question 1: In a simple world, one would think to ask: Is it better for to set my TV and NewNVidiaControl to 0-255::0-255 or 16-235::16-235 respectively? On one hand I have found contradictory reports to your reference link which proclaimed that 0-255 contains a greater range of data thus more has accuracy; however, if the source material is in fact 16-235, I know from the audio world that transcoding (i.e. digital frequency-based translating) is by definition imperfect.

Question 2: The world is not that easy . If I understand this, I think the problem all along was that some HD source video material was actually played at [or expanded to] 0-255. However, the NVidia Chipset would ignore that and assume 16-235 and expand again (hence the "double expansion problem.") This is what left even those of us with 0-255 tv's still SOL because no matter what contrast/brightness etc we fiddled with, NVidia lost that data in this conversion.

However, I never fully figured out when this actually occured (although definitely in HwAccel since there are not a million codecs/filters to play with.)

SOOO... In my setup above, was this the case for PowerDvd 7.3/8 in Vista playing BluRay? Even so, I assume I do NOT have to set the NVidia to 16-235 and the TV to 0-255 to compensate and double contract ?

I spent a while looking at "Planet Earth-Caves" with all possible permutations but that of course is simply a qualitative judgment call...


Fun stuff! (I mean it actually ...But please help, as exciting as this is I am dying to see what this can do!

Thanks a ton in advance, and happy de-crushing!!!

PS - If you read my ramblings this far, here's a tip: remember to re-set the PowerDvd COLORSPACE_OPTION registry hack back to 3 once you move to this driver!
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post #83 of 117 Old 07-26-2008, 01:27 AM
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It's not all that complicated.. Set 0-255 for the PC input on your Kuro (as I did mine). Then, adjust your contrast brightness (for the PC input) so that you can see all the different shades of gray as distinctly as possible (you might find a better pattern somewhere on the internet), but this this should be good enough

http://photographerusa.com/screencheck/

Then, go to the nvidia control panel with this latest nvidia driver under the "Adjust video color settings" section and try "limited 16-235" and hit apply. Play your videos with something like powerdvd with hardware acceleration enabled.

You might also try the same thing with the "Full 0-255" setting and see if that has the effect youre looking for. One of those should work.

Thats it...

Edit: There are more precise calibration methods, but this is probably the easiest possible way to get what you want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by myurkus View Post

Wow this made my day; however, now I am more confused on this than I thought I have been for the past year (even with PhaedrusGalt's insightful post.) Can someone please help?

My System:
-Pioneer Kuro 5010FD (DVI->HDMI in; can be set to an input of 0-255 or 16-235)
-8600 GT (Winfast PX8600 [has HDMI, but using DVI out...not buying a long HDMI cable until I buy an HDMI receiver!])
-PowerDVD 7.3 on Vista x86 (and PowerDVD 8 on Vista 64x but I generally use the former.) (Plus various other apps for regular Dvd's etc, but I am mainly concerned about HiDef because of the lack of HwAccel control.)

Question 1: In a simple world, one would think to ask: Is it better for to set my TV and NewNVidiaControl to 0-255::0-255 or 16-235::16-235 respectively? On one hand I have found contradictory reports to your reference link which proclaimed that 0-255 contains a greater range of data thus more has accuracy; however, if the source material is in fact 16-235, I know from the audio world that transcoding (i.e. digital frequency-based translating) is by definition imperfect.

Question 2: The world is not that easy . If I understand this, I think the problem all along was that some HD source video material was actually played at [or expanded to] 0-255. However, the NVidia Chipset would ignore that and assume 16-235 and expand again (hence the "double expansion problem.") This is what left even those of us with 0-255 tv's SOL because no matter what contrast/brightness etc we fiddled with, NVidia lost that data in this conversion.

However, I never fully figured out when this actually occured (although definitely in HwAccel since there are not a million codecs/filters to play with.)

SOOO... In my setup above, was this the case for PowerDvd 7.3/8 in Vista playing BluRay? If so, should I set the NVidia to 16-235 and the TV to 0-255?

I spent a while looking at "Planet Earth-Caves" with all possible permutations ...while I saw much more detail with the last setup, I fear I may have double-contracted my colorspace and caused the opposite problem by doing this!

Fun stuff! (I mean it actually ...But please help, as exciting as this is I am dying to see what this can do!

Thanks a ton in advance, and happy de-crushing!!!

PS - If you read my ramblings this far, here's a tip: remember to re-set the PowerDvd COLORSPACE_OPTION registry hack back to 3 once you move to this driver!

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post #84 of 117 Old 07-26-2008, 01:38 AM
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Originally Posted by mkanet View Post

I'm presuming most people have displays capable of a 0-255 PC input. Mine does. I dont know about all "HDTV's" out there, but i know for a fact many have inputs/colorspace settings specificaly for PC input.

Edit: Hopefully, now you can understand why my thinking was that this problem was fixed (as a lot of people do). But, you're right, I didnt think that there might be some displays that aren't intended for PC input.

Yeah, I'm with you 100%. Thanks for discussing this with me.
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post #85 of 117 Old 07-26-2008, 01:47 AM
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Youre quite welcome my friend. I enjoyed discussing it with you too!

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Originally Posted by PhaedrusGalt View Post

Yeah, I'm with you 100%. Thanks for discussing this with me.

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post #86 of 117 Old 07-26-2008, 01:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myurkus View Post

Wow this made my day; however, now I am more confused on this than I thought I have been for the past year (even with PhaedrusGalt's insightful post.) Can someone please help?

My System:
-Pioneer Kuro 5010FD (DVI->HDMI in; can be set to an input of 0-255 or 16-235)
-8600 GT (Winfast PX8600 [has HDMI, but using DVI out...not buying a long HDMI cable until I buy an HDMI receiver!])
-PowerDVD 7.3 on Vista x86 (and PowerDVD 8 on Vista 64x but I generally use the former.) (Plus various other apps for regular Dvd's etc, but I am mainly concerned about HiDef because of the lack of HwAccel control.)

Note: assume I have no problem at all changing modes for the obvious 0-255 PC application colorspace (I'll simply program macros/Garmin/Harmony codes if I need to...)

Question 1: In a simple world, one would think to ask: Is it better for to set my TV and NewNVidiaControl to 0-255::0-255 or 16-235::16-235 respectively? On one hand I have found contradictory reports to your reference link which proclaimed that 0-255 contains a greater range of data thus more has accuracy; however, if the source material is in fact 16-235, I know from the audio world that transcoding (i.e. digital frequency-based translating) is by definition imperfect.

Question 2: The world is not that easy . If I understand this, I think the problem all along was that some HD source video material was actually played at [or expanded to] 0-255. However, the NVidia Chipset would ignore that and assume 16-235 and expand again (hence the "double expansion problem.") This is what left even those of us with 0-255 tv's still SOL because no matter what contrast/brightness etc we fiddled with, NVidia lost that data in this conversion.

However, I never fully figured out when this actually occured (although definitely in HwAccel since there are not a million codecs/filters to play with.)

SOOO... In my setup above, was this the case for PowerDvd 7.3/8 in Vista playing BluRay? Even so, I assume I do NOT have to set the NVidia to 16-235 and the TV to 0-255 to compensate and double contract ?

I spent a while looking at "Planet Earth-Caves" with all possible permutations but that of course is simply a qualitative judgment call...


Fun stuff! (I mean it actually ...But please help, as exciting as this is I am dying to see what this can do!

Thanks a ton in advance, and happy de-crushing!!!

PS - If you read my ramblings this far, here's a tip: remember to re-set the PowerDvd COLORSPACE_OPTION registry hack back to 3 once you move to this driver!

Sounds like there are quite a few variables in your situation. You should try the various combinations, see which looks best (particularly in darker scenes where black gradations are more obvious), then post back here and let us know the results. As you said, if PowerDVD decodes 16-235, then NVIDIA expands to 0-255, then transmits to HDTV, then HDTV compresses to 16-235 since it's internal circuitry most likely only operates at Video standards, we're talking about a fair bit of processing on every single pixel in the image!
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post #87 of 117 Old 07-26-2008, 01:59 AM
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Thanks for the response. Sorry I am sometimes overly verbose.

Your point hits the heart of what I was afraid to ask though: because of double-expansion, it is in fact possible I may need the tv at 0-255 AND the new NVidia setting at 16-235?

Thanks for the link, but I definitely have my 0-255 PC settings calibrated. In addition, I have often used the THX *regular*DVD setup on Finding Nemo for calibration ( and colorspace verification.)

Now that we can actually change HwAcc settings I may buy that DVE BluRay calibration disc to see what turns up with PowerDVD....

Thanks for the advice (and enjoy the Kuro ) [edit: thanks to *both* of you! I will get back to you guys with some more findings soon. To be honest I have been at this for far too long and am responding on the little gyration remote/keyboard on the plasma about to [*gasp*] sit down and watch something

I'll get back to you guys tomorrow...thanks again!]
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post #88 of 117 Old 07-26-2008, 04:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhaedrusGalt View Post

I know this doesn't help Nvidia users right off the bat, BUT I wonder if ATI's DVI->HDMI dongle would do the compression on Nvidia cards, too. If it does, you're in luck!!! My post has more info.

Sadly, it won't. The presence of the dongle (or the circuit within the dongle) makes the ATI card assume it's connected to an HDTV and therefore should output 16-235 (video) levels. In other words, it's the card that actually does the conversion not the dongle.

Wo0zy
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post #89 of 117 Old 07-26-2008, 04:51 AM
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Sadly, it won't. The presence of the dongle (or the circuit within the dongle) makes the ATI card assume it's connected to an HDTV and therefore should output 16-235 (video) levels. In other words, it's the card that actually does the conversion not the dongle.

Wo0zy

Too bad. But thanks for explaining how it worked. The dongle seemed a bit small to perform data processing on every single pixel in a 1080P signal without delaying anything.

(width) * (height ) * (RGB data) * (FPS)

1920 * 1080 * 3 * 60 = 373,248,000 pixels per second to perform compression on, and that's not counting that a good compression algorithm may want to look at the pixel's neighbors or the next frame or two to decide on how to compress. Or not. I do not know, I only wonder.
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post #90 of 117 Old 07-26-2008, 04:55 AM
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But hey, isnt everything showed in vista media center 16-235 by default? Or can you still get 0-235 when looking at pictures for example within VMC?
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