Arcsoft TMT -- No Downsampling and Bitstreaming! - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 92 Old 07-23-2008, 04:47 PM
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DTS-HD Master Audio Features
• Lossless Audio with variable data rates up to 24.5 Mbps for Blu-ray Disc and up to 18.0 Mbps for the
HD DVD format
• Up to 7.1 discrete channels with a sampling frequency of 96 kHz and 24 bits of signal resolution
• Up to 192 kHz sampling frequency and 24 bits of signal resolution for 2.0 channels
• Speaker Re-mapping with multiple speaker playback configurations for 7.1 channel systems
• Secondary Audio/Sub Audio Stream for supplemental audio content*
DTS-HD High Resolution Audio Features
• Extended High Resolution Audio with constant data rates from 1.5 Mbps to 6.0 Mbps for Blu-ray Disc and from
1.5 Mbps to 3.0 Mbps for HD DVD
• Up to 7.1 channels with a sampling frequency of 96 kHz and 24 bits of signal resolution
• Speaker remapping for 7.1 channel systems
• Secondary Audio/Sub Audio streams for supplemental audio content

Let's hope it's that easy.
From DTS_HD_Whitepaper
http://www.dts.com/

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post #32 of 92 Old 07-23-2008, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

That is how it works in Vista, all audio gets output at the rate you specify. The exception is that an application can use "exclusive mode" in which the application can specify the form of the output.

I think that bitstreaming will ultimately be easier than dealing with windows.

I wonder if you are getting unmolested 192/96 kHz and 24 bits of signal resolution or if your system is just upsampling the downsampled audio?
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post #33 of 92 Old 07-23-2008, 05:48 PM
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Well it's upsampling for sure because I dare to you find a Blu-ray Disc with 24bit 192kHz audio.
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post #34 of 92 Old 07-23-2008, 05:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socio View Post

I wonder if you are getting unmolested 192/96 kHz and 24 bits of signal resolution or if your system is just upsampling the downsampled audio?

That would only happen if TMT is downsampling in the first instance. They claim that they are not.

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post #35 of 92 Old 07-24-2008, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

That would only happen if TMT is downsampling in the first instance. They claim that they are not.

I'm sorry, Arcsoft says they are not downsampling audio now in the current release, but that bitstreaming will be available in the next release? Is that right?

I am pretty sure it will be easy to tell if bitstreaming works or not. But given all the postage and handling that Vista does with audio, I am not sure there is really an easy way to tell if downsampling is going on.
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post #36 of 92 Old 07-24-2008, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeSM View Post

I am not sure there is really an easy way to tell if downsampling is going on.

It is the easiest of things but only if arcsoft/pdvd would play ball (use exclusive mode) which they aren't.

To give you an example I have my vista set to 6ch 48khz 16-bit [this is what 99% of all bd/hd dvd disks are anyway & no up/downsampling is being done]. If I play a cd I get 6ch 48khz 16-bit. I also get windows sounds during playback and can adjust the volume within windows. This is bad very bad.

Now with an app like foobar2000 with wasapi plugin I can use exclusive mode. Vista still set to 6ch 48khz 16-bit. I hit play and my receiver suddenly switches to 44.1khz 2ch. All other sounds are muted and the volume does not work. This is bit-perfect playback/the holy grail/unmolested audio or what ever you want to call it. This is good.

This means that even us hdmi 1.1 owners could get bit-perfect true-hd/dts-hd ma (decoded to lpcm by software then send to receiver i.e. ps3 style). We already get lpcm but it not bit-perfect, it can't be, as without exclusive mode you know vista is messing with your sound.

Exclusive mode is just as simple as bitstreaming to test, problem nobody is offering it. To test set vista to 7.1 96khz 24-bit and playback your typical bd disk. Receiver should switch to 5.1 48khz 16-bit, windows sounds or any other sound should not be heard and the volume cannot be adjusted within windows. If you're reading this and it is working as above you are probably in the year 2010
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post #37 of 92 Old 07-24-2008, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 720p View Post

Now with an app like foobar2000 with wasapi plugin I can use exclusive mode. Vista still set to 6ch 48khz 16-bit. I hit play and my receiver suddenly switches to 44.1khz 2ch. All other sounds are muted and the volume does not work. This is bit-perfect playback/the holy grail/unmolested audio or what ever you want to call it. This is good.

How does this work with analog audio? The application, in your example Foobar, receives the full-scale bitstream and digitally controls the volume (scales the bits) within the Foobar application before sending the bits to the audio card?

Yes, I know all about the problems of digital volume control. But they are somewhat overstated, IMO, and only show up at fairly low volume levels. Sloppy resampling within windows is a much bigger issue.

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post #38 of 92 Old 07-24-2008, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post

How does this work with analog audio?

The soundcard receives the audio and uses its DACs to send the audio to individual analog cables which maintain "bit perfect" sound. Is there something I'm missing here?
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post #39 of 92 Old 07-24-2008, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 720p View Post

It is the easiest of things but only if arcsoft/pdvd would play ball (use exclusive mode) which they aren't.

To give you an example I have my vista set to 6ch 48khz 16-bit [this is what 99% of all bd/hd dvd disks are anyway & no up/downsampling is being done]. If I play a cd I get 6ch 48khz 16-bit. I also get windows sounds during playback and can adjust the volume within windows. This is bad very bad.

Now with an app like foobar2000 with wasapi plugin I can use exclusive mode. Vista still set to 6ch 48khz 16-bit. I hit play and my receiver suddenly switches to 44.1khz 2ch. All other sounds are muted and the volume does not work. This is bit-perfect playback/the holy grail/unmolested audio or what ever you want to call it. This is good.

This means that even us hdmi 1.1 owners could get bit-perfect true-hd/dts-hd ma (decoded to lpcm by software then send to receiver i.e. ps3 style). We already get lpcm but it not bit-perfect, it can't be, as without exclusive mode you know vista is messing with your sound.

Exclusive mode is just as simple as bitstreaming to test, problem nobody is offering it. To test set vista to 7.1 96khz 24-bit and playback your typical bd disk. Receiver should switch to 5.1 48khz 16-bit, windows sounds or any other sound should not be heard and the volume cannot be adjusted within windows. If you're reading this and it is working as above you are probably in the year 2010

If you look at this thread: http://www.arcsoft.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=659 on the arcsoft forums for TMT, the user solves his sound problem on playback of HD media by disabling the sound card's exclusive mode. This implies that TMT is actually using exclusive mode, else that change would not have any effect.
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post #40 of 92 Old 07-24-2008, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty2k1 View Post

The soundcard receives the audio and uses its DACs to send the audio to individual analog cables which maintain "bit perfect" sound. Is there something I'm missing here?

Volume control. Run direct to an amplifier, which some of us do, it would be LOUD. I was just wondering if 'exclusive mode' precluded volume control within the application. I suspect it does not . . .

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post #41 of 92 Old 07-24-2008, 02:10 PM
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post #42 of 92 Old 07-24-2008, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post

How does this work with analog audio? The application, in your example Foobar, receives the full-scale bitstream and digitally controls the volume (scales the bits) within the Foobar application before sending the bits to the audio card?

Yes, I know all about the problems of digital volume control. But they are somewhat overstated, IMO, and only show up at fairly low volume levels. Sloppy resampling within windows is a much bigger issue.

Back in 2000 I've bought my first digital speakers for the PC. They were only 2.1 but when I turned the volume all the way & stuck my ear to the speaker there was no noise unlike all other speakers I had before. Since then I have never used analogue audio from a pc so I wouldn't know.

Volume wise I know that foobar uses 32-bit floating point with dithering so in practice you would need ears bettering those of a bat to hear a difference but me being anal I never use the volume slider

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeSM View Post

If you look at this thread: http://www.arcsoft.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=659 on the arcsoft forums for TMT, the user solves his sound problem on playback of HD media by disabling the sound card's exclusive mode. This implies that TMT is actually using exclusive mode, else that change would not have any effect.

Wanna bet? I will install TMT to see for myself if noone wants to confirm/run the test.
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post #43 of 92 Old 07-24-2008, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 720p View Post

Back in 2000 I've bought my first digital speakers for the PC. They were only 2.1 but when I turned the volume all the way & stuck my ear to the speaker there was no noise unlike all other speakers I had before. Since then I have never used analogue audio from a pc so I wouldn't know.

It sounds like you've never had a good amp with a low noise figure. I have an ADCOM amp for my front speakers, and a cheap freebie Sony receiver for my rear speakers. The fronts have no 'hiss' at all when turned on, the rears are terrible.

Your 'digital' speakers still have an analog amp inside.

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post #44 of 92 Old 07-24-2008, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 720p View Post




Wanna bet? I will install TMT to see for myself if noone wants to confirm/run the test.

I am not saying that it doesn't do downsampling, but it would be good to do a test...
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post #45 of 92 Old 07-24-2008, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post

It sounds like you've never had a good amp with a low noise figure. I have an ADCOM amp for my front speakers, and a cheap freebie Sony receiver for my rear speakers. The fronts have no 'hiss' at all when turned on, the rears are terrible.

Your 'digital' speakers still have an analog amp inside.

The amp is whatever was in the speakers as you say, they were all pc speakers, ofcourse the amp is going to be poor. The point is, all speaker packages that had both analogue & digital connections, the analogue connection had tons of noise even from listening position, the digital none. When connecting my htpc to receivers I always used spdif until last year when I bought my first hdmi mobo. Never used spdif since.

Lossless lpcm compared to the best of dd/dts is like comparing a badly ripped mp3 to a sacd. The first time I heard it I nearly fell out of my chair. I though I had just replaced my receiver, speakers & wires.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeSM View Post

I am not saying that it doesn't do downsampling, but it would be good to do a test...

Just installed. No surprises (no exclusive mode) except:
1) boy this thing is really fast (pdvd user here)
2) looks/feels better too (how did they manage that?)
3) plays bd/hd dvd from folder!
4) selecting spdif all dd sounds miracolously turn to 1.5mbps dts (those crazy TMT programmers)
5) remote doesn't work in mce (pressing anything closes TMT)
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post #46 of 92 Old 07-24-2008, 06:23 PM
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Quote:


Originally Posted by 720p
To give you an example I have my vista set to 6ch 48khz 16-bit [this is what 99% of all bd/hd dvd disks are anyway & no up/downsampling is being done].

Correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that since both DTS HD MA and Dolby True HD specs call for a sampling frequency of 96 kHz and 24 bits of signal resolution to meet the criteria for use of those formats. Then any BD/HD DVD discs with those audio formats would not be 48khz 16-bit thus there are quite few with higher than 48khz 16-bit.
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post #47 of 92 Old 07-24-2008, 06:30 PM
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remote doesn't work in mce (pressing anything closes TMT)

Not my experience--start up is most difficult.

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post #48 of 92 Old 07-24-2008, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socio View Post

Correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that since both DTS HD MA and Dolby True HD specs call for a sampling frequency of 96 kHz and 24 bits of signal resolution to meet the criteria for use of those formats.

Those are the maximum supported capabilities.

Quote:


Then any BD/HD DVD discs with those audio formats would not be 48khz 16-bit thus there are quite few with higher than 48khz 16-bit.

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=760714
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post #49 of 92 Old 07-24-2008, 06:43 PM
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Audio
Lossless 455 69.57 %
LPCM 225 34.40 %
DTS-HD:MA 129 19.72 %
TrueHD 101 15.44 %
DTS-HD 16 2.45 %
DTS 13 1.99 %
DD * 171 26.15 %
24 bit 129 19.72 %
96 kHz 7 1.07 %
7.1 310 47.40 %
6.1 122 18.65 %
5.0 43 6.57 %
4.0 9 1.38 %
3.0 2 0.31 %
2.0 137 20.95 %
1.0 48 7.34 %
* when DD is primary audio

From:http://www.blu-raystats.com/Stats/St...?OrderBy=Audio

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post #50 of 92 Old 07-24-2008, 07:40 PM
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Lawguy,

Thanks for your news.

Few shares...

1) I probably won't celebrate just yet as those support folks responses are not always trustworthy.

2) I TOTALLY realized you indicated 4850 in your email to them. But I have a feeling that they probably just refer to their build perhaps their build for Asus HDMI sound card and nothing to do with 4850. But I really hope not!

3) With this news now, I truly hope the next TMT will be here before end of August, before Asus HDMI sound card launch. In this case, we don't need to bother to try other bit stream sound card solutions. Any eta for the next TMT?

4) Let's assume it is a correct statement, it will be just a matter of time CL makes PDVD offers the same thing.

If the next release TMT can do what he said then you and I will be so happy and no need to try any other HDMI sound cards
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post #51 of 92 Old 07-24-2008, 09:26 PM
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720P,

Thanks for your info in this thread and it definitely a very helpful info (to me).

Also, thank you for stepping up and trying TMT. I am PDVD8 user and try TMT a while back and after trial I never touch them again. I guess I will try TMT again when the exclusive mode available.

Your suggestions, ideas and feedbacks are highly appreciated!
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post #52 of 92 Old 07-26-2008, 01:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 720p View Post

The amp is whatever was in the speakers as you say, they were all pc speakers, ofcourse the amp is going to be poor. The point is, all speaker packages that had both analogue & digital connections, the analogue connection had tons of noise even from listening position, the digital none. When connecting my htpc to receivers I always used spdif until last year when I bought my first hdmi mobo. Never used spdif since.

Lossless lpcm compared to the best of dd/dts is like comparing a badly ripped mp3 to a sacd. The first time I heard it I nearly fell out of my chair. I though I had just replaced my receiver, speakers & wires.



Just installed. No surprises (no exclusive mode) except:
1) boy this thing is really fast (pdvd user here)
2) looks/feels better too (how did they manage that?)
3) plays bd/hd dvd from folder!
4) selecting spdif all dd sounds miracolously turn to 1.5mbps dts (those crazy TMT programmers)
5) remote doesn't work in mce (pressing anything closes TMT)

That affect comes from cheesy onboard soundcards/cheap soundcards with not so good DACs and analog outputs...

When I jumped from the Sound Blaster AWE64 all the way to the Audigy 2, most of that "noise" with the analog output went away, with the Xi-Fi prelude, its pretty much nonexistent... the only "noise" I get is when my Pioneer VSX-516 gets turned all the way up towards 90-100% volume on Analog
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post #53 of 92 Old 07-26-2008, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Those are the maximum supported capabilities.



https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=760714

Oh, I see, I was thinking the differences were resolution but the only major difference between HD formats is uncompressed, lossy, lossless compression, any of them can be 24bit or 96khz.

Thanks
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post #54 of 92 Old 08-01-2008, 08:39 PM
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So... what was the conclusion of all this?

My opinion:

1) ArcSoft technical support is horrible in general. When I read the original post, it sounded like the tech support guy was confusing about 4 different things.

2) Bitstreaming will only be available with the G45 and HDMI sound cards coming out. Everything to date does not have a PAP and won't bitstream. Sorry.

3) Hopefully, someday, the software players will get permission to send full resolution LPCM over HDMI if the source is not AACS protected. Currently, however, they are required to bit-strip the sound to 16/48. This is part of their agreement that allows them to provide software decoders for the sound (TrueHD/DTS-HD/etc.). Perhaps sound LPCM soundtracks won't have to be bitstripped, but that's it.

So sorry folks, but I think this is just a bad and confused tech support response. There are bits of truth in it (like bitstreaming is coming from TMT with the ASUS sound card), but all the check-box nonsense is simply nonsense.

(And the software never takes exclusive control - to whoever posted that earlier.)

Cord cutter for 5+ years...
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post #55 of 92 Old 08-02-2008, 03:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbMagFab View Post

So... what was the conclusion of all this?

My opinion:

1) ArcSoft technical support is horrible in general. When I read the original post, it sounded like the tech support guy was confusing about 4 different things.

2) Bitstreaming will only be available with the G45 and HDMI sound cards coming out. Everything to date does not have a PAP and won't bitstream. Sorry.

3) Hopefully, someday, the software players will get permission to send full resolution LPCM over HDMI if the source is not AACS protected. Currently, however, they are required to bit-strip the sound to 16/48. This is part of their agreement that allows them to provide software decoders for the sound (TrueHD/DTS-HD/etc.). Perhaps sound LPCM soundtracks won't have to be bitstripped, but that's it.

So sorry folks, but I think this is just a bad and confused tech support response. There are bits of truth in it (like bitstreaming is coming from TMT with the ASUS sound card), but all the check-box nonsense is simply nonsense.

(And the software never takes exclusive control - to whoever posted that earlier.)

At last some sense

Adam
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post #56 of 92 Old 08-02-2008, 03:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbMagFab View Post

So... what was the conclusion of all this?

My opinion:

1) ArcSoft technical support is horrible in general. When I read the original post, it sounded like the tech support guy was confusing about 4 different things.

2) Bitstreaming will only be available with the G45 and HDMI sound cards coming out. Everything to date does not have a PAP and won't bitstream. Sorry.

3) Hopefully, someday, the software players will get permission to send full resolution LPCM over HDMI if the source is not AACS protected. Currently, however, they are required to bit-strip the sound to 16/48. This is part of their agreement that allows them to provide software decoders for the sound (TrueHD/DTS-HD/etc.). Perhaps sound LPCM soundtracks won't have to be bitstripped, but that's it.

So sorry folks, but I think this is just a bad and confused tech support response. There are bits of truth in it (like bitstreaming is coming from TMT with the ASUS sound card), but all the check-box nonsense is simply nonsense.

(And the software never takes exclusive control - to whoever posted that earlier.)


Well, .120 certainly doesn't permit bitstreaming so one thing is demonstrably untrue. I am still holding out some small hope that .120 was an unplanned interim update to correct the problems that many were having with the recalled .119 version. Perhaps .121 will be the real deal.

Probably wishful thinking. I am on the verge of just caving and buying a stand alone player. I should have learned my lesson about the gap between what the computer industry promises and what it ultimately delivers. I have been a beta tester for unfinished hardware and software for too many years.

Affable Nitwit
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post #57 of 92 Old 08-12-2008, 09:20 PM
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OK, I finally got around to installing Arcsoft TMT today. I had been using Nero and PowerDVD with my ATI 4850HD until now. Both of those programs ALWAYS gave me 48 Khz 7.1 Channel PCM with Windows XP pro. There is no way to adjust the Khz or Bit depth in XP so it always just outputs 48 Khz. Or at least it did until today!

I popped in my 96 Khz 24 Bit Chris Botti Blu-ray and fired up TMT. I started the disc and selected the lossless track. Then I checked my receiver(Yamaha RX-V663) and what do you know? I saw 96 Khz 7.1 Channel PCM on my receiver for the first time ever! My receiver does not report bit depth so I could not determine that.

Next, I tried several disks that were 48 Khz and 16 bit and all of the those still showed 96 Khz. Finally, I tried a DVD and it showed 48 Khz.

So what does all of this mean? I am not sure! It sure looks like TMT is up converting the majority of the Blu-rays to 96 Khz and it plays all DVDs at 48 Khz. I guess the real question is what does it do with 96 Khz Blu-rays? Does it output them naturally at 96 Khz or does it down convert them before up converting them?
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post #58 of 92 Old 08-13-2008, 08:41 AM
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Well, .120 certainly doesn't permit bitstreaming so one thing is demonstrably untrue. I am still holding out some small hope that .120 was an unplanned interim update to correct the problems that many were having with the recalled .119 version. Perhaps .121 will be the real deal.

Probably wishful thinking. I am on the verge of just caving and buying a stand alone player. I should have learned my lesson about the gap between what the computer industry promises and what it ultimately delivers. I have been a beta tester for unfinished hardware and software for too many years.

If you decide to go that route then you will be in for a nice surprise in PQ, TMT still fails the anti aliasing test along with visual clarity compared to PDVD or any SA player. PDVD still suffers from color banding and artifacts unless your using VMC EVR codec. But for us XP users there is no benefit to EVR compared to VMR9 due to no hardware acceleration. But the results should be the same as VMR9 if your color calibrated in other words there is no difference in PQ when using either of the two. MPC is the only player that rivals any SA player out there as far as PQ.

EZ solution is SA player at this point in time. Keep the PC for archiving your favs and use MPC as your quality player for your PC when ripping single file Blu's....
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post #59 of 92 Old 08-13-2008, 09:40 AM
 
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I am confused about the "allow software...exclusive control" checkbox inside sound card settings.

Do I want to have this turned on or off? Why?
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post #60 of 92 Old 08-13-2008, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

I am confused about the "allow software...exclusive control" checkbox inside sound card settings.

Do I want to have this turned on or off? Why?

On unless you want all your dd/dts tracks to be send as molested pcm/sound crap.
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