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post #4201 of 4731 Old 02-11-2015, 09:25 AM
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Here's what I assume is being discussed because I may be mistaken. . .

An IBM m1015 flashed to LSI firmware running JBOD can be directly broken out from each 8087 connector to 4 sata ports. This gives 8 sata ports from each PCIe x8 slot. Those 8 ports all run at 6Gb/s. If you expand one of your 8087s it halves your I/O and each disk behind the expander runs at 3Gb/s. This may depend on the expander, so I'm not really sure how low it will go in that sense

Unless the individual drives connected at the end are faster than their available bandwidth then I don't see how you will incur any slowdown whether you have one single drive connected or every available connector full (other than some off chance that the card overheats and throttles ? ?)
@ajhieb @techmattr @EricN . . . You guys always seem to know the facts in this area and explain much better than myself
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post #4202 of 4731 Old 02-11-2015, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Slayer View Post
Here's what I assume is being discussed because I may be mistaken. . .

An IBM m1015 flashed to LSI firmware running JBOD can be directly broken out from each 8087 connector to 4 sata ports. This gives 8 sata ports from each PCIe x8 slot. Those 8 ports all run at 6Gb/s. If you expand one of your 8087s it halves your I/O and each disk behind the expander runs at 3Gb/s. This may depend on the expander, so I'm not really sure how low it will go in that sense

Unless the individual drives connected at the end are faster than their available bandwidth then I don't see how you will incur any slowdown whether you have one single drive connected or every available connector full (other than some off chance that the card overheats and throttles ? ?)
@ajhieb @techmattr @EricN . . . You guys always seem to know the facts in this area and explain much better than myself

If it continually halves like that then cards able to handle 128+ drives would be abysmally slow wouldn't they?

Also, I found that there are other reasons to go from 3gb to 6gb, like drive seeking for example. I'm not sure what else the 12gb cards add as far as that goes.

I'm trying to nail this all down before I make a purchase as I don't want to end up buying a card for $1k and it doesn't work as expected. Thanks in advance for the help in this guys.
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post #4203 of 4731 Old 02-11-2015, 12:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DotJun View Post
If it continually halves like that then cards able to handle 128+ drives would be abysmally slow wouldn't they?

Also, I found that there are other reasons to go from 3gb to 6gb, like drive seeking for example. I'm not sure what else the 12gb cards add as far as that goes.

I'm trying to nail this all down before I make a purchase as I don't want to end up buying a card for $1k and it doesn't work as expected. Thanks in advance for the help in this guys.
The speed of your HBA and expander shouldn't have anything to do with drive seeking. The biggest difference you'll see is on small reads/writes where you're actually reading/writing to the drives buffer, which will allow you to utilize all of the given bandwidth of a 3gb, 6gb or 12gb connection. When transferring to/from the physical media very few devices can saturate even a 3gb channel by itself.

If you are using expanders, it may be beneficial to use the faster speeds depending on your setup. If you're accessing several drives at once, the additional bandwidth can prevent you from having a bottleneck (or at least minimize it) But if you have a 3gb card connected to a 3gb expander, connected to another 3gb expander, connected to another 3gb expander, connected to a 3gb drive, that drive can still transfer at 3gb. The only time you should see any sort of slowdown is when multiple drives are being accessed simultaneously.

A 12gb 8 channel card for example should be able to handle 64 drives (with expander) without a significant slowdown during simultaneous access (assuming the drives can't transfer faster than 1.5gb which most cant)

In other words a SAS expander behaves very much like a network switch. Any devices connected can communicate at full speed as long as they bandwidth is available to do so.
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post #4204 of 4731 Old 02-11-2015, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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For some reason I stopped getting updated to this thread in my subscriptions and email. I will need to go fix that. I seem to miss a lot.
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post #4205 of 4731 Old 02-11-2015, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajhieb View Post
In other words a SAS expander behaves very much like a network switch. Any devices connected can communicate at full speed as long as they bandwidth is available to do so.
I can't find exactly where I was reading about this the first time, but the premise for my assumptions came from something similar to this
http://lime-technology.com/forum/ind...?topic=33461.0
http://lime-technology.com/forum/ind...?topic=18533.0
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post #4206 of 4731 Old 02-11-2015, 02:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Slayer View Post
I can't find exactly where I was reading about this the first time, but the premise for my assumptions came from something similar to this
http://lime-technology.com/forum/ind...?topic=33461.0
http://lime-technology.com/forum/ind...?topic=18533.0
You were right for the most part.

Here's a snippet from Intel's site, regarding the expander mentioned in one of those unRAID threads...

Quote:
The Intel® RAID Expander RES2SV240 has 24 ports through six SFF-8087 connectors. The ports of the Intel RAID Expander RES2SV240 are like network switches, with some limitations.

  • You can connect one of the SFF-8087 ports from a RAID controller to the Intel RAID Expander RES2SV240. The remaining 20 (five SFF-8087 ports) are available to connect to disk drives, backplanes, or expanders.
  • Another option, is to connect two SFF-8087 ports from a RAID controller to the Intel RAID Expander RES2SV240. The remaining 16 (four SFF-8087 ports) are available to connect to disk drives, backplanes, or expanders.

Intel® RAID controller individual ports act as waterfall-type connections. If you are transferring less than 6 Gb (theoretical) from the controller to the Intel RAID Expander RES2SV240, you only use one port. Otherwise, if it is more than 6 Gb, it falls to other ports to enable the required throughput.
Your description is correct for the most part, but all the expanders I've seen are "symmetrical" for the most part. (3gb up/3gb down, 6up/6down, etc) So the speed to any given device is the same, but if everything were running at max bandwidth (which isn't a realistic scenario) the drives in a 2:1 setup would have their bandwidth cut in half.
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post #4207 of 4731 Old 02-11-2015, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajhieb View Post
The speed of your HBA and expander shouldn't have anything to do with drive seeking. The biggest difference you'll see is on small reads/writes where you're actually reading/writing to the drives buffer, which will allow you to utilize all of the given bandwidth of a 3gb, 6gb or 12gb connection. When transferring to/from the physical media very few devices can saturate even a 3gb channel by itself.



If you are using expanders, it may be beneficial to use the faster speeds depending on your setup. If you're accessing several drives at once, the additional bandwidth can prevent you from having a bottleneck (or at least minimize it) But if you have a 3gb card connected to a 3gb expander, connected to another 3gb expander, connected to another 3gb expander, connected to a 3gb drive, that drive can still transfer at 3gb. The only time you should see any sort of slowdown is when multiple drives are being accessed simultaneously.



A 12gb 8 channel card for example should be able to handle 64 drives (with expander) without a significant slowdown during simultaneous access (assuming the drives can't transfer faster than 1.5gb which most cant)



In other words a SAS expander behaves very much like a network switch. Any devices connected can communicate at full speed as long as they bandwidth is available to do so.

When I said drive seek, what I should have said was drive routing which I read as the older sas 1.0 models did not do, along with a few other features native to sas 2.0 and greater.

Thanks for confirming that there won't be significant slow down during parity checks on a large disc number array. How much of an impact is having a large cache, or even a small one, for these applications? I know the speed benefit is tremendous in raid arrays, but I've never done a jbod before.
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post #4208 of 4731 Old 02-11-2015, 06:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DotJun View Post
When I said drive seek, what I should have said was drive routing which I read as the older sas 1.0 models did not do, along with a few other features native to sas 2.0 and greater.

Thanks for confirming that there won't be significant slow down during parity checks on a large disc number array. How much of an impact is having a large cache, or even a small one, for these applications? I know the speed benefit is tremendous in raid arrays, but I've never done a jbod before.
It probably won't make a difference. Parity checks/updates are instances when it is much more likely though. During those operations you'll be reading from all data drives at the same time, so the potential for a bottleneck is much higher then. If you're using 3gb equipment then you're going to be limited to about 10 drives per 4 lane SAS port before you start to run into bottlenecks.

The usefulness of cache is going to vary depending on the type of disk activity you're expecting. It will be most useful for small random writes, but write cache (if not protected by BBU) runs the risk of data corruption in the event of power failure.
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post #4209 of 4731 Old 02-14-2015, 07:02 PM
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Can I get some info on flexraid guys?

On a 2 port controller with 8 lanes:

1)
DRU on port 1, lane 1.
I want to upgrade the drive to a larger drive. Can this be done?

2)
DRU on port 1, lane 1. PPU's on port 2, lanes 1, 2 and 3.
I want to plug port 2 into a sas extender. Can I just unplug the drives, plug port 2 into the extender and then plug the drives into the extender? Will I retain my array or do I have to rebuild?

3)
Same question as question 2, but this time, for port 1 and let's say 3 DRU's.

4)
If a drive degrades, do I need to replace it with the same capacity drive or can I upgrade to a larger one with the extra capacity being available for use of course?

Does flexraid mark the lane and phy of each port in the GUI?
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post #4210 of 4731 Old 02-14-2015, 09:48 PM
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FlexRAID doesn't care one bit about where a drive is located. You can even copy the data to another computer entirely and redirect the mount point to a network share and it would continue on as if nothing changed. At any time, for any reason, you can upgrade the drive capacity. Or even downgrade capacity, as long as the data that was on the previous drive will fit on the replacement.
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post #4211 of 4731 Old 02-15-2015, 08:07 AM
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FlexRAID doesn't care one bit about where a drive is located. You can even copy the data to another computer entirely and redirect the mount point to a network share and it would continue on as if nothing changed. At any time, for any reason, you can upgrade the drive capacity. Or even downgrade capacity, as long as the data that was on the previous drive will fit on the replacement.

Awesome, thanks! I figured as much for the ppu, I just didn't know how it handled the dru drive.
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post #4212 of 4731 Old 02-16-2015, 09:48 AM - Thread Starter
 
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You have a link or thread on your new project you are doing?
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post #4213 of 4731 Old 02-16-2015, 10:32 PM
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You have a link or thread on your new project you are doing?
I do not, no. It's not a new project really. More of a continuation. The box I'm working on is a Lian-Li 343B. Right now I am using Norco ss-400's on the right side of the case. Eight 3tb Reds are in a raid 6 configuration on a 3Ware 9650.

What I'm trying to do now is to try out software raid (flexraid or snapraid). I ended up getting a cheap LSI 9211-8e as a controller. It will end up being paired with this Chenbro expander. I went ahead and purchased these Rosewill hot swap drive cages to try out since they were so cheap. I'm just waiting on the new seagate 8tb drives to come out, but for now I'll be using some 2tb and 3tb drives I have lieing around.

I honestly don't know if the parts I chose will work since this is my first outing into non-raid card stuff, so all I can do is cross my fingers.
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post #4214 of 4731 Old 02-18-2015, 11:17 AM
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So I read every page up until page 59, then jumped to pg 120 or so and finally got to this point. Along the way, I bought a Dell Perc H310 and tried to flash it. Well, now my computer that I would be using won't post which is fine. I was going to upgrade it anyways. But now I have a card that I can't flash and is pretty useless to me.

The links I want to add will be in the next post...

Would there be any downside to it? I wouldn't be streaming to multiple computers or away from my house so I don't need the crazy fast speeds.

Unless I can send the card I've got and either swap it or flash it?

This project hasn't officially started yet, maybe in a month or so before I can really sit down and start playing/ordering more parts.
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post #4215 of 4731 Old 02-18-2015, 11:19 AM
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The two other cards I was looking at were:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...=ATVPDKIKX0DER
and
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Like I stated above, I won't be streaming away from home and I'll only be streaming to one htpc.
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post #4216 of 4731 Old 02-18-2015, 11:25 AM - Thread Starter
 
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The two other cards I was looking at were:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...=ATVPDKIKX0DER
and
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Like I stated above, I won't be streaming away from home and I'll only be streaming to one htpc.
Problem with those is they are x1 speed cards and slots.

The Perc and IBM are x8 speed cards. Also- SAS ports rather than SATA, which makes more sense when hooking up hard drives in multiples, or using backplanes.

You'd need a little more info on your design goals and rest of the gear to really be able to tell you which one is sufficient or best.
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post #4217 of 4731 Old 02-18-2015, 11:26 AM - Thread Starter
 
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So I read every page up until page 59, then jumped to pg 120 or so and finally got to this point. Along the way, I bought a Dell Perc H310 and tried to flash it. Well, now my computer that I would be using won't post which is fine. I was going to upgrade it anyways. But now I have a card that I can't flash and is pretty useless to me.

The links I want to add will be in the next post...

Would there be any downside to it? I wouldn't be streaming to multiple computers or away from my house so I don't need the crazy fast speeds.

Unless I can send the card I've got and either swap it or flash it?

This project hasn't officially started yet, maybe in a month or so before I can really sit down and start playing/ordering more parts.
Ship your card to someone to flash it for you is probably better still. Cheaper, and still a better card.
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post #4218 of 4731 Old 02-18-2015, 11:45 AM
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I think I'm going to be staying in the AMD realm seeing as that's all I've ever worked with so;

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813128659 -mobo

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819113348 -cpu

Everything else I can scavenge from my down computer.
4x4gb ram @ 1333mhz
650w psu
1 - 2tb WD green
1 - 1.5 WD green
1 - 3tb seagate
1 - 4tb seagate for parity

I'll be adding more drives slowly as deals come up.

And I'll be using flexraid, haven't decided which one yet.
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post #4219 of 4731 Old 02-18-2015, 11:50 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Depending on CPU power you need, no reason you can't stay with AMD. It's good stuff too. It won't really matter which platform you go with in the end, other than the CPU power. Reuse you existing gear- that is what I did. You can always upgrade or replace it when you feel you want/need it.

I'd PM Andy Steb and see if you can send your card to have him flash it for a small fee. He did mine for me the second time around. Then just build your machine and enjoy You won't find a card as good as the one you have under $100 at retail, and shipping back and forth is a lot less.
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post #4220 of 4731 Old 02-18-2015, 11:54 AM
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Great, thanks for the quick replies!
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post #4221 of 4731 Old 02-18-2015, 11:57 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Good luck. Post up some pics here if you get a chance and let us know how it works out.
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post #4222 of 4731 Old 02-18-2015, 12:21 PM
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Wol

Does anyone us WOL WITHOUT magic packets, i am interested on using this in conjunction with samba shares. i post this here because i have a similar server setup as everyone here.
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post #4223 of 4731 Old 02-18-2015, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricBurns View Post
So I read every page up until page 59, then jumped to pg 120 or so and finally got to this point. Along the way, I bought a Dell Perc H310 and tried to flash it. Well, now my computer that I would be using won't post which is fine. I was going to upgrade it anyways. But now I have a card that I can't flash and is pretty useless to me.

The links I want to add will be in the next post...

Would there be any downside to it? I wouldn't be streaming to multiple computers or away from my house so I don't need the crazy fast speeds.

Unless I can send the card I've got and either swap it or flash it?

This project hasn't officially started yet, maybe in a month or so before I can really sit down and start playing/ordering more parts.
Will that PC post without the H310 installed? If so, you may need to mask the pins on the H310: http://lime-technology.com/forum/ind...?topic=29236.0

I had the same problem on my PC, but the electrical tape solved it.
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post #4224 of 4731 Old 02-18-2015, 03:46 PM
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Will that PC post without the H310 installed? If so, you may need to mask the pins on the H310: http://lime-technology.com/forum/ind...?topic=29236.0

I had the same problem on my PC, but the electrical tape solved it.
I tried it first without the tape and nothing. Then I taped it and it started fine. Once I started the process of flashing it is when I ran into problems. Now with the card out of the computer, it won't post.
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post #4225 of 4731 Old 02-19-2015, 08:27 AM
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I read it so long ago that I forgot why you guys are flashing your cards. Can someone tell me why and whether I will be having to do the same with my LSI 9211?
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post #4226 of 4731 Old 02-19-2015, 09:31 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I read it so long ago that I forgot why you guys are flashing your cards. Can someone tell me why and whether I will be having to do the same with my LSI 9211?
Flash away the BIOS boot screen and RAID to make it a transparent host bust adapter. Basically just more sata ports- which works well with flexraid and just of bunch of disk configurations.
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post #4227 of 4731 Old 02-19-2015, 01:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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So....

For some reason my thumbnails broke again on my desktop. When I navigate to my Flexraid drive, none of the thumbnails on my desktop seem to work for the movie folders.

But oddly... now they work fine on the actual WHS machine itself via remote desktop.

I'd prefer them to work for both, but would rather them work on the desktop more than the server itself since I do more with that. Suggestions?
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post #4228 of 4731 Old 02-21-2015, 10:36 AM
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Someone on ebay is selling the res2sv240 real cheap, offered $55 and he countered with $60! He has about 80 available so get them while you can. Even though I don't need one right now, its too good of a deal to pass up.



http://www.reddit.com/r/homelab/comm...xpanders_6075/
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post #4229 of 4731 Old 02-22-2015, 10:55 AM
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Someone on ebay is selling the res2sv240 real cheap, offered $55 and he countered with $60! He has about 80 available so get them while you can. Even though I don't need one right now, its too good of a deal to pass up.



http://www.reddit.com/r/homelab/comm...xpanders_6075/

Thanks for sharing. I got one for the same price.
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post #4230 of 4731 Old 02-23-2015, 06:18 AM
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So is flashing these the same process as the M1015 and Dell?
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