Plex vs Kodi?? - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 12Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #91 of 125 Old 11-10-2015, 05:56 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Roc, NY
Posts: 48
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Liked: 4
I know it's been a couple months old, but I installed Plex on my desktop being used as a media server and then installed the client on my HTPC. Ended up having issues with plugins not working and metadata not being gathered for anything I have, so I got rid of it.

I'm looking now into Emby or Kodi. Should I installed Emby server with the Kodi add-on? Or just install Kodi?

Is there another option I'm not seeing?

Thanks in advance.
EricBurns is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #92 of 125 Old 11-10-2015, 05:58 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
pittsoccer33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,117
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 657 Post(s)
Liked: 434
From my experience Plex is much better with metadata than Kodi. Plex and Media Browser look for naming the same way, so I assume the newer version Emby does it like that as well.

I had such a nightmare getting Kodi to handle tv shows and music that I installed the PleXBMC add on to use my Plex metadata on my Kodi machine for those two libraries.

My basement media room and bar
Epson 2030, Onkyo TX-NR626, and Kodi based system

Mironto's Panasonic plasma black level restoration guide
Restore the initial MLL on a 2009 Panasonic plasma
pittsoccer33 is offline  
post #93 of 125 Old 11-10-2015, 06:00 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bryansj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 9,424
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1756 Post(s)
Liked: 791
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricBurns View Post
I know it's been a couple months old, but I installed Plex on my desktop being used as a media server and then installed the client on my HTPC. Ended up having issues with plugins not working and metadata not being gathered for anything I have, so I got rid of it.

I'm looking now into Emby or Kodi. Should I installed Emby server with the Kodi add-on? Or just install Kodi?

Is there another option I'm not seeing?

Thanks in advance.
Emby uses a Server / Client model the same as Plex. Kodi doesn't need a server, but you can link up Emby Server to provide Kodi with your library. If Plex couldn't figure out your metadata then Emby might not either. You have to have your files named correctly for them to get matched. You can go in and manually update those that still are incorrect, but that should be more like 10% instead of 90%.

bryansj is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #94 of 125 Old 11-10-2015, 06:54 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
TornadoTJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hill Country, Texas
Posts: 7,901
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1950 Post(s)
Liked: 626
What he said above. If you don't have them named properly, nothing is going to get the metadata. Your movies have to exactly match the titles as they are presented in this database:
https://www.themoviedb.org/?language=en
For example, Iron Man can't (typically) just be ironman.mkv or im.mkv or Iron Man 720p InSaNe.mkv. It has to be exactly Iron Man (2008).mkv. Resolving this will most likely resolve any Plex issues you were having. I've been running Plex quite happily for about 3 years now.

Kodi has an Emby add-on, which requires an Emby Server back-end, not the other way around. Kodi is happy to work on its own if you want. The advantage to the Emby back-end is that you can stop a movie in one room, then go to another and pick up where you left off.
TornadoTJ is offline  
post #95 of 125 Old 11-10-2015, 06:57 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Roc, NY
Posts: 48
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Liked: 4
Thanks @bryansj . I think it was all of the posters and banners for my movies weren't coming through. The movie names were correct but the image was just a random shot from the film. That, and none of the channels to watch TV shows/movies in a plugin would work.

I'll load up Emby when I get home tonight and go from there.
EricBurns is offline  
post #96 of 125 Old 11-10-2015, 07:18 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bryansj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 9,424
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1756 Post(s)
Liked: 791
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricBurns View Post
Thanks @bryansj . I think it was all of the posters and banners for my movies weren't coming through. The movie names were correct but the image was just a random shot from the film. That, and none of the channels to watch TV shows/movies in a plugin would work.

I'll load up Emby when I get home tonight and go from there.
Plex doesn't use your existing posters and banners if that is what you needed. It needs to grab them using its metadata manager. You can go back and point it to your custom image files one at a time.

I use the following format:
D:\Movies\Movie Name (Year)\Movie Name (Year).mkv
D:\TV Series\Series Name\Season XX\Series Name - SXXEXX - Episode Title.mkv

However, Plex should work with just a Movies folder full of correctly named files and Kodi too. I'm not sure Emby works without individual movie folders for each movie file.

bryansj is offline  
post #97 of 125 Old 11-10-2015, 07:30 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Roc, NY
Posts: 48
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Liked: 4
I'll have to add the year to all of my movies then once I get home.

My main concern was that any of the channels I added wouldn't work. That was the main reason for installing Plex was to try and watch a TV show that aired last night and all of the ones I added, like Icefilms and Let me watch this, weren't playing anything listed.
EricBurns is offline  
post #98 of 125 Old 11-10-2015, 07:46 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
TornadoTJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hill Country, Texas
Posts: 7,901
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1950 Post(s)
Liked: 626
Put your movies in individual folders, and name the folder properly.
TornadoTJ is offline  
post #99 of 125 Old 11-10-2015, 07:57 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Roc, NY
Posts: 48
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Liked: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by TornadoTJ View Post
Put your movies in individual folders, and name the folder properly.
Should I do this regardless of which program I use, Plex or Emby?
EricBurns is offline  
post #100 of 125 Old 11-10-2015, 08:01 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bryansj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 9,424
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1756 Post(s)
Liked: 791
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricBurns View Post
Should I do this regardless of which program I use, Plex or Emby?
Yes, that would help.

bryansj is offline  
post #101 of 125 Old 11-10-2015, 08:01 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
TornadoTJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hill Country, Texas
Posts: 7,901
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1950 Post(s)
Liked: 626
Yes. I learned this the hard way. Plex or Emby, and set them to store the movie data (metadata) within the individual folders. Kodi doesn't really care.
TornadoTJ is offline  
post #102 of 125 Old 11-10-2015, 08:12 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Roc, NY
Posts: 48
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Liked: 4
Sounds good, thanks. Looks like I have some more work ahead of me.

Any add-ons/plugins you would recommend?
EricBurns is offline  
post #103 of 125 Old 11-10-2015, 08:34 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
mrfattbill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,086
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 144 Post(s)
Liked: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricBurns View Post
I'll have to add the year to all of my movies then once I get home.

My main concern was that any of the channels I added wouldn't work. That was the main reason for installing Plex was to try and watch a TV show that aired last night and all of the ones I added, like Icefilms and Let me watch this, weren't playing anything listed.
Icefilms and Let Me Watch This are both add ons for streaming pirated content, when they don't work don't blame the software you are adding them to.

Bill
mrfattbill is offline  
post #104 of 125 Old 11-10-2015, 09:59 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Roc, NY
Posts: 48
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Liked: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrfattbill View Post
Icefilms and Let Me Watch This are both add ons for streaming pirated content, when they don't work don't blame the software you are adding them to.

Bill
I was not aware of that.

I guess I should keep researching/googling then.
EricBurns is offline  
post #105 of 125 Old 11-10-2015, 10:02 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
stanger89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Marion, IA
Posts: 23,130
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4156 Post(s)
Liked: 2388
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricBurns View Post
I'll have to add the year to all of my movies then once I get home.
I know in Kodi, most of the time you don't need to include the year. It's most useful for resolving duplicates. It's probably a good habit to get into, but I wouldn't necessarily go back and change everything you've got done.
stanger89 is offline  
post #106 of 125 Old 11-10-2015, 12:34 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
steelman1991's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,766
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 464 Post(s)
Liked: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricBurns View Post
I was not aware of that.

I guess I should keep researching/googling then.
Yeah sure you didn't - you just got all that new content (TV and film) paid nothing for it and didn't know it was pirated - oh c'mon lol.
steelman1991 is online now  
post #107 of 125 Old 11-10-2015, 01:16 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bryansj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 9,424
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1756 Post(s)
Liked: 791
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelman1991 View Post
Yeah sure you didn't - you just got all that new content (TV and film) paid nothing for it and didn't know it was pirated - oh c'mon lol.
Reminds me of the Napster days.

bryansj is offline  
post #108 of 125 Old 11-10-2015, 01:53 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
TornadoTJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hill Country, Texas
Posts: 7,901
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1950 Post(s)
Liked: 626
Don't get me wrong, I'm old enough (beyond unfortunately) to remember Napster, but the first thing that came to my mind was Limewire and Bear Share. "What? I didn't know it was illegal" is what I heard when I'd walk over to an employee because suddenly I saw torrent downloads going across my network border...
TornadoTJ is offline  
post #109 of 125 Old 11-10-2015, 05:09 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Roc, NY
Posts: 48
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Liked: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelman1991 View Post
Yeah sure you didn't - you just got all that new content (TV and film) paid nothing for it and didn't know it was pirated - oh c'mon lol.
I never even got a chance to play anything on either plugin because nothing was working.
EricBurns is offline  
post #110 of 125 Old 11-11-2015, 12:37 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
steelman1991's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,766
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 464 Post(s)
Liked: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericburns View Post
i never even got a chance to play anything on either plugin because nothing was working.
lol
steelman1991 is online now  
post #111 of 125 Old 03-10-2016, 03:05 AM
Senior Member
 
sjackson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 209
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 91 Post(s)
Liked: 37
Interesting thread as I'd never considered Emby before......


So I'm trialling JRMC and not really blown away by it after years of using Kodi - the UI is just not as good. I'm thinking of switching back and my priority is picture & sound quality (Atmos etc). I'm going to take a closer look at Kodi (DSPlayer build) I think. I was using MPC-HC with madVR. I like the idea of having my library managed by a server and picked up by clients (I know I could do this with Kodi MySQL).


So can someone explain exactly how Emby works with Kodi? In the case where I have a powerful HTPC, will Emby simply act as a metadata supplier? That is, Kodi will still pick up the file from my fileserver and play it from it's own client or does it get transcoded from Emby? I can understand transcoding to an iPhone, iPad etc but not to a machine powerful enough to play the media natively.


Also in a separate room, can the Amazon Fire TV with Kodi installed be configured with the Emby plugin? Or is there a better player on the Fire TV?

__________________________________________

DIY Sound Group 893 & Volt 8's Build Thread
sjackson is offline  
post #112 of 125 Old 03-10-2016, 06:57 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
TornadoTJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hill Country, Texas
Posts: 7,901
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1950 Post(s)
Liked: 626
Sounds like you have it nailed down.

Look on the Amazon store and see if Emby is there. I don't remember, I've been using Plex on mine, when I actually use it.
TornadoTJ is offline  
post #113 of 125 Old 03-10-2016, 07:17 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
psuKinger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,721
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1594 Post(s)
Liked: 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post
From my experience Plex is much better with metadata than Kodi. Plex and Media Browser look for naming the same way, so I assume the newer version Emby does it like that as well.

I had such a nightmare getting Kodi to handle tv shows and music that I installed the PleXBMC add on to use my Plex metadata on my Kodi machine for those two libraries.
Yes.

All of my content is named properly for Plex.

Kodi looks at those files and gets all of my movies right, but TV Shows and Music are a total hit-and-miss mess. I have Media Center Master set up (perhaps incorrectly) to put Kodi metadata files in the folders... doesn't seem to help. Most (but not all) TV shows appear properly, but within each specific show the episode names are all rubbish (mostly just season number and episode number... can't even get the episode title to display, must less any "summary" info).
psuKinger is offline  
post #114 of 125 Old 03-10-2016, 07:45 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
TornadoTJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hill Country, Texas
Posts: 7,901
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1950 Post(s)
Liked: 626
MCE Buddy does a pretty good job of correcting TV shows for me, about 80% when I record with WMC, and 100% so far with the HDHR DVR recordings.

If the names are not pretty much perfect, Plex will choke on them.
TornadoTJ is offline  
post #115 of 125 Old 03-10-2016, 09:38 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Dark_Slayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,714
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 764 Post(s)
Liked: 473
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjackson View Post
Interesting thread as I'd never considered Emby before......


So I'm trialling JRMC and not really blown away by it after years of using Kodi - the UI is just not as good. I'm thinking of switching back and my priority is picture & sound quality (Atmos etc). I'm going to take a closer look at Kodi (DSPlayer build) I think. I was using MPC-HC with madVR. I like the idea of having my library managed by a server and picked up by clients (I know I could do this with Kodi MySQL).


So can someone explain exactly how Emby works with Kodi? In the case where I have a powerful HTPC, will Emby simply act as a metadata supplier? That is, Kodi will still pick up the file from my fileserver and play it from it's own client or does it get transcoded from Emby? I can understand transcoding to an iPhone, iPad etc but not to a machine powerful enough to play the media natively.


Also in a separate room, can the Amazon Fire TV with Kodi installed be configured with the Emby plugin? Or is there a better player on the Fire TV?
Emby can transcode or play directly. For devices like the Fire a few things have to be transcoded like vc1 (I think) but a lot of others will just be streaming from your server the same way they were before ever using the Emby plugin. The only differences will be that all of your artwork, watched states, etc will be managed by Emby. The plugin populates your Kodi library with paths that are presented to Kodi in the same fashion as letting it scrape your whole library, however the Emby plugin will load a Kodi library up much much faster since everything is scraped by Emby. Kodi doesn't handle importing large libraries very well, and it does a very p1$s poor job of keeping watched states and multiple clients synchronized or even allowing you to update between releases. Until they improve the library structure it will continue to be this way. Music metadata, music art, movie art, tv series organization, extra artworks like disc art and clear logos, it is very hobbled into Kodi. If you like the overly simplistic views where there is only a title and a poster then it wont matter. If you like the full artwork experience, upnp sharing still doesn't cut it even 6 point releases after it was introduced. Mysql does but has a few quirks like during a version update. Letting Emby or Plex manage all this is by far the best way. Plex remains very simplistic in their artwork, so it isn't much greater than just using UPNP sharing and letting kodi manage the library with the exception that it does a better job storing your watched states. The plex plugin only offers widget support in the Amber and Titan skins, and it doesn't expose your library the way the Emby plugin does. You can add fake menu entries for Plex to any skin, but you aren't going to be able to sort on genre, in progress, year, actors, etc. Nor will you get a plot as far as I'm aware, and no trailer support in their plugin either I believe. Also, since they don't expose the plex entries to Kodi as a typical movie the skins that have Youtube trailer integration probably wont offer a trailer for those items since they dont know what kind of content they are

I have a central Emby server, and my brother in laws and sister transcode from it at their houses (over WAN) running Kodi. In our house we have three devices running Kodi, no transcoding inside the house whatsoever
sjackson likes this.
Dark_Slayer is offline  
post #116 of 125 Old 03-10-2016, 10:02 AM
Senior Member
 
sjackson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 209
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 91 Post(s)
Liked: 37
Great thanks. I'm looking at building a new Xeon based unRAID server with my HTPC as a VM inside that. I like the sound of Emby so I'll investigate that as my library manager in a docker app.....

__________________________________________

DIY Sound Group 893 & Volt 8's Build Thread
sjackson is offline  
post #117 of 125 Old 03-10-2016, 12:23 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Brian B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,589
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 245 Post(s)
Liked: 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by psuKinger View Post
I have Media Center Master set up (perhaps incorrectly) to put Kodi metadata files in the folders... doesn't seem to help. Most (but not all) TV shows appear properly, but within each specific show the episode names are all rubbish (mostly just season number and episode number... can't even get the episode title to display, must less any "summary" info).
Yeah, something must be wrong. I've been using MCM for years and never have any issues. I'm not sure I'd be able to help you fix it, but it should be renaming your files and the part about XBMC/Kodi should be checked in the metadata menu area so it makes the appropriate files.

Once a TV show is set up I never have issues.

B.
Brian B is offline  
post #118 of 125 Old 03-10-2016, 01:38 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
psuKinger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,721
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1594 Post(s)
Liked: 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
Yeah, something must be wrong. I've been using MCM for years and never have any issues. I'm not sure I'd be able to help you fix it, but it should be renaming your files and the part about XBMC/Kodi should be checked in the metadata menu area so it makes the appropriate files.

Once a TV show is set up I never have issues.

B.
Yea that's what I figured, thanks for the input.

Does MCM actually rename the actual files? Or is it just creating a kodi-file (I can't remember the extension off hand) with kodi-metadating, pairing a specific file with a specific piece of meta-data?

Because I believe I've followed Plex's naming Convention, and Plex does read all of these same files correctly:
Folder with TV Show Name ("Seinfeld")
Subfolder - Season Number ("Season 04")
.wtv files of episodes of Seinfeld Season 4, named using the following convention:
Seinfeld - s04e07 - The Bubble Boy

Does Kodi just use those MCM-generated kodi-files to identify the specifics of the files contained within that folder? Or does it actually rename your files for you? Because my files aren't being renamed... nor do I think I'd want them to be, if that means it'd break Plex?
psuKinger is offline  
post #119 of 125 Old 03-10-2016, 01:57 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Brian B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,589
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 245 Post(s)
Liked: 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by psuKinger View Post
Yea that's what I figured, thanks for the input.

Does MCM actually rename the actual files? Or is it just creating a kodi-file (I can't remember the extension off hand) with kodi-metadating, pairing a specific file with a specific piece of meta-data?

Because I believe I've followed Plex's naming Convention, and Plex does read all of these same files correctly:
Folder with TV Show Name ("Seinfeld")
Subfolder - Season Number ("Season 04")
.wtv files of episodes of Seinfeld Season 4, named using the following convention:
Seinfeld - s04e07 - The Bubble Boy

Does Kodi just use those MCM-generated kodi-files to identify the specifics of the files contained within that folder? Or does it actually rename your files for you? Because my files aren't being renamed... nor do I think I'd want them to be, if that means it'd break Plex?
Under the "Download Parser" you can select "auto-rename". Under "Metadata" you check "Generate Kodi/XBMC compatible metadata (.nfo)."
Under "Organization" you set the TV naming convention, so if you want it like above then you would set it to N - sXXeYY - T or something like that.

That should get you working. Just let it rename them as Plex wants them and it will write the data so Kodi can understand what they are.

B.
psuKinger likes this.
Brian B is offline  
post #120 of 125 Old 03-10-2016, 01:59 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
psuKinger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,721
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1594 Post(s)
Liked: 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
Under the "Download Parser" you can select "auto-rename". Under "Metadata" you check "Generate Kodi/XBMC compatible metadata (.nfo)."
Under "Organization" you set the TV naming convention, so if you want it like above then you would set it to N - sXXeYY - T or something like that.

That should get you working. Just let it rename them as Plex wants them and it will write the data so Kodi can understand what they are.

B.
Wow. Fantastic. Thanks for taking the time to guide me like that. I will definitely try that when I get home tonight.
psuKinger is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Home Theater Computers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off