Do you think we will see UHD bluray drives for the PC? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
View Poll Results: Will there be a UHD bluray drive for PC?
Yes, there is too much demand 45 56.25%
No, the PC market is not important enough to the Alliance 35 43.75%
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post #1 of 29 Old 09-21-2015, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Do you think we will see UHD bluray drives for the PC?

Just curious what others think. There hasn't been any kind of announcement one way or the other, but with so few legitimate bluray software players I'm not very optimistic.

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post #2 of 29 Old 09-21-2015, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post
Just curious what others think. There hasn't been any kind of announcement one way or the other, but with so few legitimate bluray software players I'm not very optimistic.
I'd bet at least one manufacturer will throw one out there if the licensing makes it possible. Optical media for PCs is pretty close to dead; even Windows 10 won't be sold on shiny discs, but there's always stragglers on the hardware side who chase a shrinking niche.
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post #3 of 29 Old 09-21-2015, 09:28 AM
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According to c|net, the first UHD BDs are likely to be on the same 50GB dual layer discs that existing BDs use. I wonder if this would mean that those discs could be played/ripped with existing PC drives.

Also, BDXL drives have been available for PC for years (I have a R/W/RW BDXL drive), and it seems to me like UHD BD uses very similar technology to existing BDXL data discs, namely tri and quad layer discs. Again, I wonder if existing PC drives will be able to read these new discs!?
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post #4 of 29 Old 09-23-2015, 10:06 PM
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We had this topic before though not on this exact subforum....

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-hom...ions-work.html
In the end there's one guy that thinks even if there aren't PC drives people will just use alleged "custom firmwares" to read and rip the discs, absolutely no problems lol. So if you follow along with his "logic" then you have nothing to fear or worry about.


Most other (sane) people don't know and the reality is there is such little information about 4K BD (now/officially UHD BD) that we don't know if it will be readable on current drives or not, readable on other [to-be-released] drives if not, or just plain not permitted on PC at all.

A google search for 4K BD still brings up next to nothing. Most recent hits (early September) just talk about Samsung's player being the first (also showing even Sony's lack of interest), and there being no discs to play yet. Anything before that is from March and just largely general details and speculation. Oh that and the "UHD BD" name and logo released in May or whatever (oooh...ahhhh! lol).

There's still no real facts or data available on the format even on Wikipedia, and BDA has certainly been mum about PC compatibility. About all you can find out is that it can use HEVC, has a better colour gamut; info on the the capacity of the discs; and that there's one player that's been released that can't even play discs because there are none.
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post #5 of 29 Old 09-24-2015, 05:23 AM
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I'd say for ripping it may happen. However, I doubt you'll see any software players since there are hardly any regular Blu-ray disc options in the first place. Maybe the Slysoft Player will be released for UHD

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post #6 of 29 Old 10-15-2015, 12:58 PM
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Was curious what had happened with this, did a Google search and found this thread, and then, this link:

https://www.blu-raydisc.info/rom4-faq.php

To me, someone completely uneducated on this, it reads that maybe at least some subset of existing BDXL drives could read a 4K disk with a firmware flash. Whether companies will actually spend the time and money to deliver this to existing customers, rather than just making them spend more $$$ on a new 4K drive, remains to be seen.
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post #7 of 29 Old 10-15-2015, 05:48 PM
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That seems to describe some logical format, not necessarily the physical one. This seems to describe the physical format and file system (UDF 2.5) as separate/distinct from the "ROM4" format:
https://www.blu-raydisc.info/format-spec/rom4-spec.php

"The special features of this version are adoption of BDMV featured 4K resolution Video and HDR(HighDynamicRange) and BD-J, capable of newly defined Dual layer 50/66 GB and Triple layer 100 GB Read-Only media also usage of UDF2.5 as file system for PC friendly."
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post #8 of 29 Old 10-15-2015, 07:43 PM
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I really hope so. I've got the first or one of the very first BDXL drives from Pioneer, I'm really hoping it'll be able to read 4K Blu-ray.
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post #9 of 29 Old 02-21-2016, 09:54 AM
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Any new news about UHDBD for PC? I just ordered a PC with a 980ti and if I can get a drive that will place 4k discs for fairly cheap I'd definitely upgrade my optical drive...
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post #10 of 29 Old 02-21-2016, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlaughterX View Post
Any new news about UHDBD for PC? I just ordered a PC with a 980ti and if I can get a drive that will place 4k discs for fairly cheap I'd definitely upgrade my optical drive...
There is still certainly no playback solution available; however, there have been reports of being able to read the discs in some (mainly newer) drives.


See here:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/150-bl...t-request.html


Note that it's not mere BDXL support that determines readability, it's just how new the drive is pretty much. There's even two builds of the same model of LG drive where the older version of the drive can't read them and the newer one can. Same model number, both support BDXL, but only the newer drive can read the discs. Not sure of the exact hardware and firmware differences between the two, but there's certainly something different where the newer ones are capable of reading the discs.


But again without a playback solution, and without AACS 2.0 being cracked yet (it most likely will be at some point), there's not really anything you can do with it anyway.
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post #11 of 29 Old 02-22-2016, 04:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlaughterX View Post
Any new news about UHDBD for PC? I just ordered a PC with a 980ti and if I can get a drive that will place 4k discs for fairly cheap I'd definitely upgrade my optical drive...
The 980TI won't work with protected UHD content because it has the older HDCP. The Pascal equivalent with HBM will be out shortly, so you should cancel your order and wait for that.
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post #12 of 29 Old 02-22-2016, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by LexInVA View Post
The 980TI won't work with protected UHD content because it has the older HDCP. The Pascal equivalent with HBM will be out shortly, so you should cancel your order and wait for that.
Or wait for working drives, or wait more for working software, or wait even longer for the protection to be cracked, or wait even longer than that for the crack to flow into ripping software.

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post #13 of 29 Old 02-22-2016, 06:07 PM
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Let's look at some things....

1. LG obviously updated the factory firmware some time after UHDBD was finalized last May. That's about the time that the new triple-layer disc replication equipment from Singulus were announced and they were delivered a few months later, with UHD-BD replication test runs in the Summer/Fall, which would fit with the manufacture dates of these "updated" drives. The new firmware has probably not been released so as not to compromise any aspect of UHD-BD-ROM security and to allow LG time to tweak accordingly for the new format.

2. The HDCP 2.2 equipped GPUs from Nvidia were made available nearly three months after UHD-BD was finalized and just in time to go along with "updated" BD-XL drives and in wide circulation by the time the first wave of UHD-BD discs had been authored and test replicated in the Fall.

3. We know that the usual players in playback software have obtained licenses for UHD-BD playback software for their respective lines. Cyberlink joined the party right when GPUs with HEVC 2.2/HDMI 2.0, HDMI 2.0 UHDTVs, "updated" BD-XL drives, and test discs were all available.

4. UHD-BD is based on existing hardware and software. It's not like they need two years to figure out how to do things now. It wouldn't take long to create playback software for UHD-BD titles and the UHD-BD party officially begins in March, with the soft-launch happening this month. That's about seven months from when everything started to come together for UHD-BD in terms of hardware.

5. LG, Samsung, etc, all have large-size UHD monitors with HDMI 2.0 coming out this year.

Ergo....

It was Colonel Mustard in the library...oh wait, that's another discussion.

Hmmm....

Ummmm.....

I think we're gonna get what we want. Yeah. I do. Doobie doobie doo.
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post #14 of 29 Old 03-18-2016, 03:01 PM
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Any News about this? My PC, AVP and TV have a hdcp 2.2/hdmi 2.0. I just need a drive to play UHD discs if my ASUS BDXL-drive won't.
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post #15 of 29 Old 03-18-2016, 03:11 PM
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Any News about this? My PC, AVP and TV have a hdcp 2.2/hdmi 2.0. I just need a drive to play UHD discs if my ASUS BDXL-drive won't.
No. You'll also need a software UHD Blu-ray player if there is ever a drive released.
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post #16 of 29 Old 05-20-2016, 10:38 AM
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I just recieved the UHD version of Pan and it doesn't work on my Asus SBW-06D2X-U. For everyone who find this information useful...
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post #17 of 29 Old 05-20-2016, 11:47 AM
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Was it just a bunch of a speculation?--I realize now I haven't heard anything about it in a while--but wasn't being able to retain a full-quality digital copy suppose to be a part of the new UHD disc format?
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post #18 of 29 Old 05-20-2016, 11:49 AM
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Furthermore, I can't imagine why there WOULDN'T be PC drives. The technology for the PC drives and the drives in the actual players themselves can't be too far apart. "Optical technology is a dying breed"? Well, yeah, so are PCs
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post #19 of 29 Old 05-20-2016, 12:36 PM
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Digital Copy is on paper, but it's one of those things they haven't implemented and may not implement. Things are supposedly not locked down on the PC side of things yet, but it should all be in place by next Summer. CES 2017 should give us some PC news to get excited about.
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post #20 of 29 Old 05-20-2016, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post
Furthermore, I can't imagine why there WOULDN'T be PC drives. The technology for the PC drives and the drives in the actual players themselves can't be too far apart. "Optical technology is a dying breed"? Well, yeah, so are PCs
The obvious answer is to prevent piracy.

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post #21 of 29 Old 05-21-2016, 08:07 AM
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The obvious answer is to prevent piracy.
I didn't realize Disney & Paramount had control over the PC drive market
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post #22 of 29 Old 05-21-2016, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post
I didn't realize Disney & Paramount had control over the PC drive market
Disney is on the Board of Directors and Paramount is a Contributor to the Blu-ray Disc Association who license the Blu-ray technology. Sony Corporation, 20th Century Fox, Universal Studios Home Entertainment, Warner Bros. Entertainment are also on the Board of Directors.


Fortunately there are hardware and software makers on the list too.

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post #23 of 29 Old 05-21-2016, 10:32 AM
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Disney is on the Board of Directors and Paramount is a Contributor to the Blu-ray Disc Association who license the Blu-ray technology. Sony Corporation, 20th Century Fox, Universal Studios Home Entertainment, Warner Bros. Entertainment are also on the Board of Directors.


Fortunately there are hardware and software makers on the list too.
PC drives aren't typically licensed by the blu-ray association, hence the need for additional software to play the discs.
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post #24 of 29 Old 05-21-2016, 11:59 AM
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Hardware Manufacturer
You need to obtain the FLLA License. Please download the FLLA License Application and submit it to the Blu-ray Disc Association Licensing Office.
http://www.blu-raydisc.info/need-license/hardware-manufacture-mp.php.


Hopefully BD-XL = Ultra HD BD-ROM so we only are waiting for the software.
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post #25 of 29 Old 05-21-2016, 09:29 PM
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Also, if you want to play UHD, you need to get AACS 2.0 (and AACS 1.0 for regular bd) keys for your drive.

Yes, there are drive keys. The drive reads the disc key (which is not supposed to be exposed outside if the drive) and then mashes it with the drive key to form an intermediate key. The player takes that intermediate key and it's own key to finally produce the title key that will decrypt the media files.

So everything needs to be in place and licensed. In theory the AACS group can deny AACS keys to PC drive manufacturers. Also the AACS spec is not open, so there's another way to keep PCs from playing UHD.

That said, the UHD players are probably using bog standard SATA drives specially licensed, so...
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post #26 of 29 Old 05-21-2016, 11:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Worf View Post
Also, if you want to play UHD, you need to get AACS 2.0 (and AACS 1.0 for regular bd) keys for your drive.

Yes, there are drive keys. The drive reads the disc key (which is not supposed to be exposed outside if the drive) and then mashes it with the drive key to form an intermediate key. The player takes that intermediate key and it's own key to finally produce the title key that will decrypt the media files.

So everything needs to be in place and licensed. In theory the AACS group can deny AACS keys to PC drive manufacturers. Also the AACS spec is not open, so there's another way to keep PCs from playing UHD.

That said, the UHD players are probably using bog standard SATA drives specially licensed, so...
What do you mean by "bog standard" ?
I've seen the inside if the Samsung UHD Blu-ray player, it does not appear to have a standard SATA connection, there is a rather large ribbon connector coming out from the bottom going into the players circuit board.
Is that what you mean by bog standard SATA drive ?

The only stand-alone player (that I've taken the cover of that is) that has a standard (all though be it old) connection is from my Sony BDP-S300 _ it's connection is IDE.
If one desired you could have removed the drive from that machine and installed it in a computer, but my newer BDP-S360 just has the ribbon cable set up like the Samsung.

I suppose someone who is good at hacking and with enough knowledge could scavenge the drive out of the Samsung and tie it into one of the SATA ports.
This would enable that person to reverse engineer AACS 2.0 ???
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post #27 of 29 Old 05-22-2016, 08:49 AM
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Most stand alone players use ribbon cable to connect to the player board to save cost because it can often negates the needs for an extra controller chip on the drive itself. The profit margins on stand alone players are usually razor thin so that they can't afford to use the standard PC drives (sans the 1st gen players where they can't find one cheap enough).
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post #28 of 29 Old 05-22-2016, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ES_Revenge View Post
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-hom...ions-work.html
In the end there's one guy that thinks even if there aren't PC drives people will just use alleged "custom firmwares" to read and rip the discs, absolutely no problems lol. So if you follow along with his "logic" then you have nothing to fear or worry about.
Speaking of this...I wonder where that guy is with his "custom firmwares" now? LOL. Maybe he's so busy working on them that he has no time for eating crow?
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post #29 of 29 Old 06-26-2016, 04:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Worf View Post
Also, if you want to play UHD, you need to get AACS 2.0 (and AACS 1.0 for regular bd) keys for your drive.

Yes, there are drive keys. The drive reads the disc key (which is not supposed to be exposed outside if the drive) and then mashes it with the drive key to form an intermediate key. The player takes that intermediate key and it's own key to finally produce the title key that will decrypt the media files.

So everything needs to be in place and licensed. In theory the AACS group can deny AACS keys to PC drive manufacturers. Also the AACS spec is not open, so there's another way to keep PCs from playing UHD.

That said, the UHD players are probably using bog standard SATA drives specially licensed, so...
The way I read it with an understanding that the PS3 blu-ray player is encryption key paired with the PS3 is that a PC requires a server to pair the encryption key of the drive with the PC player as the USB and eSATA bus is a vulnerability and data going over that bus is encrypted. Embedded/Game consoles do not need the bus server and drive white list server mentioned in the BDA UHD paper.
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