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post #1111 of 1210 Old 07-19-2019, 12:34 PM
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I See ist,but cause of my english i Had Problem with it

Do you have Tipps for imorovement nativ 4k?
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post #1112 of 1210 Old 07-20-2019, 04:58 AM - Thread Starter
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I would disable all of the trade quality for performance checkboxes related to tone mapping and enable everything under tone map HDR using pixel shaders with the exception of output video in HDR format and color tweaks for fire & explosions. You should leave those two disabled.
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post #1113 of 1210 Old 07-20-2019, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Onkyoman View Post
I would disable all of the trade quality for performance checkboxes related to tone mapping and enable everything under tone map HDR using pixel shaders with the exception of output video in HDR format and color tweaks for fire & explosions. You should leave those two disabled.
have a 1080ti, there is nothing clicked.
does not mean under picture improvement also nothing, or artifakt distance?
and what is Highlight Recovery for?
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post #1114 of 1210 Old 07-20-2019, 06:56 AM - Thread Starter
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You can check any of the image enhancements that you want. There is no recommendation for those settings. Whatever looks best to your eyes.

I provided a description of highlight recovery strength a few posts ago.
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post #1115 of 1210 Old 07-20-2019, 01:15 PM
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So you recommend high for Highlight Recovery?

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post #1116 of 1210 Old 07-20-2019, 08:56 PM - Thread Starter
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I prefer medium, but higher values are preferred by some.
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post #1117 of 1210 Old 07-21-2019, 03:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Onkyoman View Post
I prefer medium, but higher values are preferred by some.
Hi,
I'm using madVR with Kodi (DSPlayer) for UHD-Content with HDR2SDR-Tonemapping, based on latest beta-build.

My Beamer (Sony VPL-VW 550 ES) is set to Custom5-Profile, HDR-Off, No Picture-Enhancements, Contrast to Max.
But I had the fealing the picture has not enough punch. No I read about "If the display uses a strict 100-120 nits SDR calibration, low brightness HDR can be the result."



Could this be the reason? Which settings in the Sony needs to be tuned. Any hints, links or tipps are welcome.


Regards
Michael
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post #1118 of 1210 Old 07-21-2019, 05:28 AM
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I finally got around to taking a photo of the info screen for another video stream that I was watching which exhibited the same sort of slightly jerky motion during pans.
Your screen doesnt show any red flags other than your rendering time being too low. Your render queues are empty which means the GPU is not keeping up with your settings. A 1070TI is plenty of power to keep up with regular old dynamic tone mapping. So, which build are you running and with what settings on the HDR screens? Any post processing options checked? What is checked / not checked on trade quality for performance?

Also I see that the display is set for RGB 8 / Full but madVR seems to be set to limited? I'd go fix that to be full also. You want your whole chain to be full (display, madvr, windows).

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post #1119 of 1210 Old 07-21-2019, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Your screen doesnt show any red flags other than your rendering time being too low. Your render queues are empty which means the GPU is not keeping up with your settings. A 1070TI is plenty of power to keep up with regular old dynamic tone mapping. So, which build are you running and with what settings on the HDR screens? Any post processing options checked? What is checked / not checked on trade quality for performance?

Also I see that the display is set for RGB 8 / Full but madVR seems to be set to limited? I'd go fix that to be full also. You want your whole chain to be full (display, madvr, windows).
Thanks for the response, Mark. Regarding the madVr version, I am on 0.92.17 (beta 78). Strangely enough, on 1080P content where most of the upscaling happens, I don't see any issues, but I see a few issues when playing 4K content.

The default display is set to 4K 8 bit 60 hz, but if the content coming through is 10 bit or 12 bit, I have it setup to switch over to those bit rates, but at 30 hz or less (given the bandwidth limitation of HDMI 2.0). In my madVR settings, I have the output level set at RGB Full (0 - 255) (screenshot attached). Is there any other setting that I need to modify to ensure that it's set to Full and not limited?

Trade quality for performance: nothing is checked
Image enhancements: nothing is checked

I have now enabled "delay playback start until render queue is full"

I have attached a few screenshots specific to my HDR and post-processing options. Please do take a look and let me know if there is anything funky.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	madVR-HDR.png
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Name:	madVR-4K-artifactRemoval.png
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Name:	madVR-4K-chromaUpscaling.png
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Name:	madVR-4K-upscalingRefinement.png
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ID:	2593098  
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post #1120 of 1210 Old 07-21-2019, 09:02 PM
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anti ringing is very costly.
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post #1121 of 1210 Old 07-21-2019, 10:59 PM
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Dir me ist the question what all the the Things makes in the movie?

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post #1122 of 1210 Old 07-22-2019, 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted by the_jaguar View Post
Thanks for the response, Mark. Regarding the madVr version, I am on 0.92.17 (beta 78). Strangely enough, on 1080P content where most of the upscaling happens, I don't see any issues, but I see a few issues when playing 4K content.

The default display is set to 4K 8 bit 60 hz, but if the content coming through is 10 bit or 12 bit, I have it setup to switch over to those bit rates, but at 30 hz or less (given the bandwidth limitation of HDMI 2.0). In my madVR settings, I have the output level set at RGB Full (0 - 255) (screenshot attached). Is there any other setting that I need to modify to ensure that it's set to Full and not limited?

Trade quality for performance: nothing is checked
Image enhancements: nothing is checked

I have now enabled "delay playback start until render queue is full"

I have attached a few screenshots specific to my HDR and post-processing options. Please do take a look and let me know if there is anything funky.
Those settings look very familiar

What I'd suggest is on the 4K profile, disable some of the artifact removal stuff. You may not need it as much on a good quality 4K source anyway. I'd start by removing "reduce ringing artifacts" and "reduce banding artifacts" and see what performance you get.

You have some costly stuff in the upscaling refinement tab also but I don't think that should be running if you are playing 4K source material. Can you try the above and see if it drops you under 42ms and show your ctrl+j screen?

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post #1123 of 1210 Old 07-22-2019, 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by DoXer View Post
Hi,
I'm using madVR with Kodi (DSPlayer) for UHD-Content with HDR2SDR-Tonemapping, based on latest beta-build.

My Beamer (Sony VPL-VW 550 ES) is set to Custom5-Profile, HDR-Off, No Picture-Enhancements, Contrast to Max.
But I had the fealing the picture has not enough punch. No I read about "If the display uses a strict 100-120 nits SDR calibration, low brightness HDR can be the result."



Could this be the reason? Which settings in the Sony needs to be tuned. Any hints, links or tipps are welcome.


Regards
Michael
I assume the madVR with Kodi (DSPplayer) uses Leia (17.4) build correct? If so, how do you safetly upgrade madVR version to the lastest release to work with 17.4? Just copy madVR over the top of the old version? I hate to mess things up by doing something wrong, so please advise.


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post #1124 of 1210 Old 07-22-2019, 06:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Kodi DSPlayer is based on v17.6 Krypton. madVR is an external installation, so there is no need to overwrite any internal copies.

There is a detailed DSPlayer set up guide here:

https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=222576
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post #1125 of 1210 Old 07-22-2019, 09:28 AM
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Those settings look very familiar

What I'd suggest is on the 4K profile, disable some of the artifact removal stuff. You may not need it as much on a good quality 4K source anyway. I'd start by removing "reduce ringing artifacts" and "reduce banding artifacts" and see what performance you get.

You have some costly stuff in the upscaling refinement tab also but I don't think that should be running if you are playing 4K source material. Can you try the above and see if it drops you under 42ms and show your ctrl+j screen?
Haha - I wonder why the settings look familiar

I will try disabling the "reduce ringing artifacts" and report back my findings. And yes, for the upscaling refinement, all my content is ripped bit to bit from a UHD disc with no compression, so these refinements shouldn't come into effect.
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post #1126 of 1210 Old 07-22-2019, 04:27 PM
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Last night I ran Aquaman on MadVR but passed the HDR through to my RS2000 for auto tone mapping. It looked great. It's probably the best HDR experience I've seen the RS2000 handle so far.

However, passing HDR through to the projector makes me think that I'm missing out on the dynamic tone mapping feature from the recent Beta builds (build 86 at the moment). Although MadVR definitely handles tone mapping exceptionally well, the RS2000 seems to behave better in HDR mode (to my eyes at least, not thoroughly tested yet). This is why I ran Aquaman with metadata pass through the other night.

I'm curious to know more about double tone mapping, where I set MadVR to do the dynamic tone mapping that I love but still pass the metadata through to the projector. Is there a reason why that option is off by default? Do I lose any benefits of MadVR dynamic tone mapping if I pass through the metadata? Also, do I need a different setting for actual nits if I pass through the metadata? The projector definitely receives different metadata numbers when I change that nits value.

I'll play with this some more tonight and see if I can identify any benefits.
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post #1127 of 1210 Old 07-22-2019, 05:30 PM
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Guys my AVR seems to not be able to pass [email protected] anymore...don't know why yet. [email protected] passthrough is working fine though.

Here's my question: If I set MadVR to only ever output [email protected] kind of problems will that bring when I play 24hz material ?( Which is the vast majority of my collection.)

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post #1128 of 1210 Old 07-22-2019, 06:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Guys my AVR seems to not be able to pass [email protected] anymore...don't know why yet. [email protected] passthrough is working fine though.

Here's my question: If I set MadVR to only ever output [email protected] kind of problems will that bring when I play 24hz material ?( Which is the vast majority of my collection.)
Playing 24 Hz content at 60 Hz will engage 3/2 pulldown and add some slight motion judder to the image. Your display might be able to remove this judder if it can detect the 24 fps frame cadence, but I don't know if it can or not.

It is less optimal than playing back 24 fps content at 24 Hz, where the refresh rate matches perfectly.

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post #1129 of 1210 Old 07-22-2019, 06:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by wombats View Post
Last night I ran Aquaman on MadVR but passed the HDR through to my RS2000 for auto tone mapping. It looked great. It's probably the best HDR experience I've seen the RS2000 handle so far.

However, passing HDR through to the projector makes me think that I'm missing out on the dynamic tone mapping feature from the recent Beta builds (build 86 at the moment). Although MadVR definitely handles tone mapping exceptionally well, the RS2000 seems to behave better in HDR mode (to my eyes at least, not thoroughly tested yet). This is why I ran Aquaman with metadata pass through the other night.

I'm curious to know more about double tone mapping, where I set MadVR to do the dynamic tone mapping that I love but still pass the metadata through to the projector. Is there a reason why that option is off by default? Do I lose any benefits of MadVR dynamic tone mapping if I pass through the metadata? Also, do I need a different setting for actual nits if I pass through the metadata? The projector definitely receives different metadata numbers when I change that nits value.

I'll play with this some more tonight and see if I can identify any benefits.
I think it all comes down to tastes. Chances are Aquaman is a bright movie and the projector's internal tone mapping works well with bright movies (most projectors do).

You would want to find a dark movie with a low black floor to use for comparison. That is the greatest benefit of converting HDR to SDR and using the dynamic target nits feature -- the dynamic target nits should keep the image bright when the movie gets dark. The projector might tone map some movies too aggressively and make them dim as a result.

Otherwise, most projectors will be converting HDR content internally to some type of gamma, anyways. By outputting in HDR, you are simply compressing the content for the projector ahead of time and it should have an easier time mapping the compressed image after tone mapping has already been applied. You get less control over the display curve compared to having madVR convert to SDR, but this combination is not much different than combining the HDR Optimiser in the Panasonic UB820/UB9000 Blu-ray players with the RS2000. If you set the real display nits to 214 nits or greater, madVR's tone mapping is largely applied to the spectral highlights alone. The projector would still tone map the SDR range to some extent, albeit it should do it with a less aggressive display curve that reflects the lower reported static metadata.
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post #1130 of 1210 Old 07-22-2019, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Onkyoman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by annisman View Post
Guys my AVR seems to not be able to pass [email protected] anymore...don't know why yet. [email protected] passthrough is working fine though.

Here's my question: If I set MadVR to only ever output [email protected] kind of problems will that bring when I play 24hz material ?( Which is the vast majority of my collection.)
Playing 24 Hz content at 60 Hz will engage 3/2 pulldown and add some slight motion judder to the image. Your display might be able to remove this judder if it can detect the 24 fps frame cadence, but I don't know if it can or not.

It is less optimal than playing back 24 fps content at 24 Hz, where the refresh rate matches perfectly.
Ok but the actual quality of the image should be the same at least right ?

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Yamaha 681 AVR
Polk Audio 3.1.2 Atmos
Panasonic UB820
Custom HTPC/Emby WMC/MPC-BE/MadVR
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post #1131 of 1210 Old 07-23-2019, 04:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, only motion is impacted by 3/2 pulldown.
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post #1132 of 1210 Old 07-23-2019, 05:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wombats View Post
I'm curious to know more about double tone mapping, where I set MadVR to do the dynamic tone mapping that I love but still pass the metadata through to the projector. Is there a reason why that option is off by default? Do I lose any benefits of MadVR dynamic tone mapping if I pass through the metadata? Also, do I need a different setting for actual nits if I pass through the metadata? The projector definitely receives different metadata numbers when I change that nits value.
There are two cases where there's an option to pass through HDR metadata:

For "passthrough HDR to display" there's "send HDR metadata to the display". I don't understand this one at all, since it seems that if you don't have the metadata, you have nothing at all.

For "tonemap HDR using pixel shaders" there's "output video in HDR format". As I understand it, what this one does is to tell the display to switch to HDR mode, but doesn't supply any actual metadata and thus the display doesn't do any actual HDR processing. I believe that madshi said once that this option was there primarily for OLED tv's that have extra brightness in HDR mode. When he said that, he didn't seem too clear whether he thought it would be of value. I know that, for me, it does switch the the TV/projector/monitor into a different picture mode without seeming to affect the HDR processing at all.

It's not clear to me which of these cases you're talking about. If you could clarify, perhaps we could figure this out.

And if anybody else has better information than I do, I'm interested in that.
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post #1133 of 1210 Old 07-23-2019, 05:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jmonier View Post
There are two cases where there's an option to pass through HDR metadata:

For "passthrough HDR to display" there's "send HDR metadata to the display". I don't understand this one at all, since it seems that if you don't have the metadata, you have nothing at all.

For "tonemap HDR using pixel shaders" there's "output video in HDR format". As I understand it, what this one does is to tell the display to switch to HDR mode, but doesn't supply any actual metadata and thus the display doesn't do any actual HDR processing. I believe that madshi said once that this option was there primarily for OLED tv's that have extra brightness in HDR mode. When he said that, he didn't seem too clear whether he thought it would be of value. I know that, for me, it does switch the the TV/projector/monitor into a different picture mode without seeming to affect the HDR processing at all.

It's not clear to me which of these cases you're talking about. If you could clarify, perhaps we could figure this out.

And if anybody else has better information than I do, I'm interested in that.
You can apply tone mapping with HDR output. The video is compressed with pixel shader tone mapping to match the real display peak nits set in the control panel and the static metadata is in fact altered and sent to the display with the MaxCLL changed to reflect the real display peak nits entered in madVR.

There is more information here:

https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php...949#pid2238949
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post #1134 of 1210 Old 07-23-2019, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by the_jaguar View Post
Thanks for the response, Mark. Regarding the madVr version, I am on 0.92.17 (beta 78). Strangely enough, on 1080P content where most of the upscaling happens, I don't see any issues, but I see a few issues when playing 4K content.



The default display is set to 4K 8 bit 60 hz, but if the content coming through is 10 bit or 12 bit, I have it setup to switch over to those bit rates, but at 30 hz or less (given the bandwidth limitation of HDMI 2.0). In my madVR settings, I have the output level set at RGB Full (0 - 255) (screenshot attached). Is there any other setting that I need to modify to ensure that it's set to Full and not limited?



Trade quality for performance: nothing is checked

Image enhancements: nothing is checked



I have now enabled "delay playback start until render queue is full"



I have attached a few screenshots specific to my HDR and post-processing options. Please do take a look and let me know if there is anything funky.


I would also go low on the Chroma upscaling on 4K content - of all things you can upscale I have read that Chroma is the least useful. You can goto Lancoz or something else.

Also Anti ringing is very expensive and not really very useful for good 4K source.




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post #1135 of 1210 Old 07-24-2019, 10:15 AM
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I would also go low on the Chroma upscaling on 4K content - of all things you can upscale I have read that Chroma is the least useful. You can goto Lancoz or something else.

Also Anti ringing is very expensive and not really very useful for good 4K source.




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what would be a sensible attitude with native 4k material?

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post #1136 of 1210 Old 07-24-2019, 11:52 AM
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When using 4k on a 4k display, there is nothing to upscale. So you should reign in your upscale settings and use the resources where they are more valuable. If you want to refine the image, do it in processing. I set it at cubic/Bicupic60. The only thing that matters is chroma. So you should set chroma to something like NGU AA medium or even NGU sharp. It's really a matter of what you prefer. The differences will probably be subtle depending on the size of your display be it a PJ or panel. The larger, the more critical it becomes. Smaller, such as 65", you probably won't see any differences.

When using lower resolutions like 1080p and below on a 4k display, Luma (aka upscaling) becomes more important than chroma. Set upscaling as high as possible, then adjust chroma.

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post #1137 of 1210 Old 07-24-2019, 02:55 PM
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what would be a sensible attitude with native 4k material?

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Start with HDR

Then post post processing, Banding, etc

Then goto Chroma and go as high as you can to get max 35 ms of rendering time


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post #1138 of 1210 Old 07-25-2019, 05:35 AM
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You have some Screenshots?

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post #1139 of 1210 Old 07-25-2019, 07:55 AM
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So according to this post we should now all abandon the rock solid 385.28 Nvidia drivers for 430.39 ? Is anybody using these successfully with MadVR playback ?

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=176013

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post #1140 of 1210 Old 07-25-2019, 08:26 AM
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So according to this post we should now all abandon the rock solid 385.28 Nvidia drivers for 430.39 ? Is anybody using these successfully with MadVR playback ?

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=176013
No more 3D though, unless you use the method posted on the geforce forum to retain 3D capabilities.
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