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post #1 of 24 Old 02-08-2016, 04:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Budget GPU for LAV & MADVR

Hello folks,

I am looking to upgrade my HD5450 with a GPU that will improve the video playback with Mediaportal+LAV and MPC+LAV, particularly of SD and compressed/artifacty videos - with which I'm hoping that MADVR will be able to improve. MediaPortal+LAV is also used for 1080i playback, so I don't want to compromise LAV over MADVR
Unfortunately my budget is about $70 (£50), so I'm currently considering,
GT430 1GB DDR5 techpowerup.com/gpudb/b3003/evga-gt-730-low-profile
R7 240 Boost 1GB DDR5 techpowerup.com/gpudb/b2474/sapphire-r7-240-1-gb-with-boost
I can't decide whether the GT430 with more cores is better than the 240 with the higher memory bandwidth, and the more I read the more uncertain I am.

Can anybody with a better understanding of the technical aspects of LAV & MADVR enlighten me, please.
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post #2 of 24 Old 02-08-2016, 04:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dark Eyes View Post
Hello folks,

I am looking to upgrade my HD5450 with a GPU that will improve the video playback with Mediaportal+LAV and MPC+LAV, particularly of SD and compressed/artifacty videos - with which I'm hoping that MADVR will be able to improve. MediaPortal+LAV is also used for 1080i playback, so I don't want to compromise LAV over MADVR
Unfortunately my budget is about $70 (£50), so I'm currently considering,
GT430 1GB DDR5 techpowerup.com/gpudb/b3003/evga-gt-730-low-profile
R7 240 Boost 1GB DDR5 techpowerup.com/gpudb/b2474/sapphire-r7-240-1-gb-with-boost
I can't decide whether the GT430 with more cores is better than the 240 with the higher memory bandwidth, and the more I read the more uncertain I am.

Can anybody with a better understanding of the technical aspects of LAV & MADVR enlighten me, please.
For background, my CPU is only an AMD 250 3GHz dual core with 4GB of DDR3 RAM, so as far as I;m aware the GPU has to handle the majority of the decoding and the rendering.
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post #3 of 24 Old 02-08-2016, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Dark Eyes View Post
For background, my CPU is only an AMD 250 3GHz dual core with 4GB of DDR3 RAM, so as far as I;m aware the GPU has to handle the majority of the decoding and the rendering.
MadVR is a bit different. I think that CPU would choke trying to process MadVR. Not knocking your setup, just illustrating MadVR isnt like most other codecs

Ill let someone else answer your question about the GPU. Im running MadVR with on-board i7 4600 graphics and it works just fine *for 1080p*.

edit: here's another thread talking about CPU/GPU requirements for MadVR: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-hom...no-gaming.html

Last edited by blackangst; 02-08-2016 at 05:06 PM.
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post #4 of 24 Old 02-08-2016, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Dark Eyes View Post
Hello folks,

I am looking to upgrade my HD5450 with a GPU that will improve the video playback with Mediaportal+LAV and MPC+LAV, particularly of SD and compressed/artifacty videos - with which I'm hoping that MADVR will be able to improve. MediaPortal+LAV is also used for 1080i playback, so I don't want to compromise LAV over MADVR
Unfortunately my budget is about $70 (£50), so I'm currently considering,
GT430 1GB DDR5 techpowerup.com/gpudb/b3003/evga-gt-730-low-profile
R7 240 Boost 1GB DDR5 techpowerup.com/gpudb/b2474/sapphire-r7-240-1-gb-with-boost
I can't decide whether the GT430 with more cores is better than the 240 with the higher memory bandwidth, and the more I read the more uncertain I am.

Can anybody with a better understanding of the technical aspects of LAV & MADVR enlighten me, please.
Try this thread: Building a 1080p HTPC for madVR

I'd consider an overclocked GTS 450 the minimum GPU required to run madVR. I am currently using this card at the moment with the core clock boosted to 925 Mhz and the memory clock boosted to 1900 Mhz with MSI Afterburner. This is considered a light overclock, but the card likely can't handle much more.

These are the settings I'm able to use: http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?...974#pid2238974.

I have to reduce chroma upscaling to Catmull-Rom for 25-29.97 fps content with a couple of the trade quality for performance boxes checked. Those are the only compromises required with the settings posted.

Last edited by Onkyoman; 02-09-2016 at 12:24 PM.
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post #5 of 24 Old 02-09-2016, 11:08 AM
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Get a GTX 950 and don't look back. It's future-proof in that it can fully decode HEVC/H.265, has HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2, and it can handle almost anything that madVR can throw at it. Can be had for as little as $139.

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I got a 2GB version of GTX750. (Not even Ti)... It just happened to be at arms reach and I didn't put much thought into it.. I think it was on sale.

Anyway,... I bet you can find those cheap being all not Ti and stuff.

Seems to work great for me with MadVR including 3D which looks freaking amazing.

Maybe you can't max all options... maybe you can... again I haven't really tried. I sort of assume it can't do it all though I did remove all the checkboxes in the Trade Quality for Performance section and I do use a 3DLUT.


-Brian
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post #7 of 24 Old 02-10-2016, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
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post #8 of 24 Old 02-10-2016, 12:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the advice folks, I have been reading more and more about GPUs and MadVR, and I have realised that those cards are probably very basic for MadVR usuage. So now I am considering a R7 250X OC or a GTX 750 Ti KalmX !
The 750Ti seems to be a popular card amongst MadVR users, and the passive option is appealing for a HTPC, although it is $30 more expensive, although I don't know it offers much more in terms of perfomance in MadVR - https://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-hom...l#post25728969

Now it seems that Nvidia are dropping DX9 support in their latest drivers, and I dont know if the AMD's OPENGL is a better option than CUDA, Renethx seemed to think so https://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-hom...l#post25625017

All this is interesting, but driving me slowly MAD!
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post #9 of 24 Old 02-10-2016, 12:41 PM - Thread Starter
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VBB Not another option !
It is bad enough that I have almost tripled my budget, without the temptation to just push it a bit higher - were will it end...

Although performance- wise it is a bit of a boost, and obviously the H265 decoding might be useful in the future (although H265 software decoding is okay on my HD5450 with the Lentoid decoder) - the fact that it is not available fanless deters me slightly (and the price hike).
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post #10 of 24 Old 02-11-2016, 12:34 PM
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If you need fanless, then yeah, your options are pretty limited. For madVR, you want a GPU that can handle all the good stuff, trust me.

Henry

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post #11 of 24 Old 02-11-2016, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Eyes View Post
Thanks for the advice folks, I have been reading more and more about GPUs and MadVR, and I have realised that those cards are probably very basic for MadVR usuage. So now I am considering a R7 250X OC or a GTX 750 Ti KalmX !
The 750Ti seems to be a popular card amongst MadVR users, and the passive option is appealing for a HTPC, although it is $30 more expensive, although I don't know it offers much more in terms of perfomance in MadVR - https://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-hom...l#post25728969

Now it seems that Nvidia are dropping DX9 support in their latest drivers, and I dont know if the AMD's OPENGL is a better option than CUDA, Renethx seemed to think so https://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-hom...l#post25625017

All this is interesting, but driving me slowly MAD!
The 750 Ti would be plenty powerful enough for 1080p. You might be deprived of NNEDI3 Luma Doubling at 720p -> 1080p, but that is hardly important. I would use Jinc or super-xbr with SuperRes, anyways. The difference is not worth a new graphics card.

At 4K, it would be a different story, as image doubling would be more important.
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post #12 of 24 Old 02-11-2016, 06:01 PM
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I have the asus strix nvidia gtx 960 and love it. It has zero fan when there is no load which is most of the time including watching blu-ray / mkv. The fan revs up if you start gaming that requires a bunch of cuda cores. MadVR works fine but it can cause the 960 to choke at really high settings.
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post #13 of 24 Old 02-11-2016, 06:39 PM
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Keep an eye on your local used market. Older GPUs don't really hold value. I just grabbed an R9 270 for $100CAD (What's that, like $12.75USD now?). It let's me run most everything maxed in MadVR except Luma and Chroma Doubling.
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post #14 of 24 Old 02-11-2016, 07:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Keep an eye on your local used market. Older GPUs don't really hold value. I just grabbed an R9 270 for $100CAD (What's that, like $12.75USD now?). It let's me run most everything maxed in MadVR except Luma and Chroma Doubling.
Thanks for the suggestion, I will have a look on ebay before I purchase the 750Ti, although you never quite know what issues the card might have until you install it.
I think I am also a bit limited by my 380W power supply, as it has 6 HDDs to power, and all the usual PC electronics. A higher spec card with a fan draws a significant amount of power under load, and the fans will probably be noticeable under load.

P.S. $100CAD is about $72US or £50 to me.
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post #15 of 24 Old 02-11-2016, 07:48 PM
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Thanks for the suggestion, I will have a look on ebay before I purchase the 750Ti, although you never quite know what issues the card might have until you install it.
I think I am also a bit limited by my 380W power supply, as it has 6 HDDs to power, and all the usual PC electronics. A higher spec card with a fan draws a significant amount of power under load, and the fans will probably be noticeable under load.

P.S. $100CAD is about $72US or £50 to me.
Perhaps it may be time to rethink your plan to run MadVR and stick with an EVR based player. You're running a 7 year old CPU and struggling to come up with even a basic GPU. MadVR requires hardware to realize any benefits, there's no way around that. It's much like trying to run a new game on an older PC, there's only so much you can do to slim down the options and still have a poor experience.

For frame of reference I run an i5 4440 in my HTPC, with a Geforce 650ti I was barely able to run MadVR
with any real quality gaining options enabled. Once I threw in an R9 270, I was able to get to where I could see a real improvement over EVR.

If this were my system and my money, I'd forget MadVR for now, spend the GPU money on a modern CPU/Motherboard/Ram and then worry about a GPU.
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post #16 of 24 Old 02-11-2016, 09:26 PM
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Perhaps it may be time to rethink your plan to run MadVR and stick with an EVR based player. You're running a 7 year old CPU and struggling to come up with even a basic GPU. MadVR requires hardware to realize any benefits, there's no way around that. It's much like trying to run a new game on an older PC, there's only so much you can do to slim down the options and still have a poor experience.

For frame of reference I run an i5 4440 in my HTPC, with a Geforce 650ti I was barely able to run MadVR
with any real quality gaining options enabled. Once I threw in an R9 270, I was able to get to where I could see a real improvement over EVR.

If this were my system and my money, I'd forget MadVR for now, spend the GPU money on a modern CPU/Motherboard/Ram and then worry about a GPU.
I have a Core 2 Duo and an overclocked GTS 450 and can run madVR with image doubling on some profiles and image sharpening and debanding on all profiles. It doesn't take anything more than a 650 Ti to get the most out of madVR if you are scaling to 1080p.
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post #17 of 24 Old 02-12-2016, 03:45 AM
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I have a Core 2 Duo and an overclocked GTS 450 and can run madVR with image doubling on some profiles and image sharpening and debanding on all profiles. It doesn't take anything more than a 650 Ti to get the most out of madVR if you are scaling to 1080p.
Sorry, that's not been my experience. My 650ti was in the mid to high 30ms range for rendering times with SuperXBR chroma upscaling with Super Res, lancos upscaling (no hope of running jinc), debanding, and error difusion 1 dithering. No image doubling enabled.

That barely squeaked by for 1080p to 1080p output or 720p upscaled to 1080.

My main point is throwing a GPU into that system just for MadVR would be like throwing a high end exhaust onto an old civic with a beat up engine. Sure it might sound a little cooler but your missing out on all the advantages the exhaust could provide if paired with the appropriate engine.
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post #18 of 24 Old 02-12-2016, 10:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Perhaps it may be time to rethink your plan to run MadVR and stick with an EVR based player. You're running a 7 year old CPU and struggling to come up with even a basic GPU. MadVR requires hardware to realize any benefits, there's no way around that. It's much like trying to run a new game on an older PC, there's only so much you can do to slim down the options and still have a poor experience.
Thanks for the advice, I had realised that my CPU will probably bottleneck the system, so I'm swapping the CPU & mobo with my i5-3570 desktop PC that just does basic computing. That should also allow me to use the i5 (with QuickSync) to decode the video, freeing the GPU up for MadVR.

I appreciate that MadVR is like a game and needs a high end GPU for higher settings, but renethxs's post https://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-hom...l#post25728969 and this on the kodi forum http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?...974#pid2238974 give me some hope that the 750Ti will provide some noticeable benefits over EVR.

Unfortunately, my options are always going to a compromise (pesky kids)
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post #19 of 24 Old 02-12-2016, 10:58 AM
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Thanks for the advice, I had realised that my CPU will probably bottleneck the system, so I'm swapping the CPU & mobo with my i5-3570 desktop PC that just does basic computing. That should also allow me to use the i5 (with QuickSync) to decode the video, freeing the GPU up for MadVR.

I appreciate that MadVR is like a game and needs a high end GPU for higher settings, but renethxs's post https://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-hom...l#post25728969 and this on the kodi forum http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?...974#pid2238974 give me some hope that the 750Ti will provide some noticeable benefits over EVR.

Unfortunately, my options are always going to a compromise (pesky kids)
With that 3570 in there, I would now at this point say a 750ti would be a great buy and you'll benefit from MadVR. My main point was, why worry about the last 5% that MadVR can provide before dealing with the prior 95% that a modern system will allow for. If you use Kodi, you'll see a huge bump in speed moving from the X2 250 to the 3570.
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post #20 of 24 Old 02-13-2016, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Thrillho View Post
Keep an eye on your local used market. Older GPUs don't really hold value. I just grabbed an R9 270 for $100CAD (What's that, like $12.75USD now?). It let's me run most everything maxed in MadVR except Luma and Chroma Doubling.
I agree that an R9 270/270X or 7850*/7870 is a great idea. I got a used 7870 for $80 about 4-5 months ago and I'm surprised how close it is in performance to a 7950/R9 280 (which I have in another machine). I don't get the obsession with OP and a 750 (Ti). 750 Ti, IMO, is a "never was" card. For most of its life it was around the same price as a 270 and the 270 is a much faster card. The only real benefit it has is lower power consumption. Admittedly that may be a concern for the OP but still I never understood why people bought the 750 Ti. To get 7870/270X performance you needed to buy a GTX 760 and I've barely ever heard of anyone having bought one of those, likely because it was more expensive for the same performance.


I agree with the other guy about getting a GTX 950 instead as well. I mean it's a bit more money (and a good bit over a used 750) but really if buying new you might as well go for a 950 which is slightly faster than a 270X, uses much less power, and supports HEVC and HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2. But if buying used a Pitcairn card (7850/7870/265/270/270X) is a better buy--you're likely getting this at the same price as a 750/750 Ti and these are all faster GPUs. I'm not 100% sure about the performance in madVR TBH, but unless someone can say a 750 is faster than Pitcairn at madVR I'm going to err on the side of the fact that Pitcairn is much faster as a GPU otherwise so it should hold true in madVR.


In other words, if buying new, spend the extra and get a GTX 950. If buying used, get a Pitcairn card as they are better value (but do use more power). The 750 just always posed a poor value proposition to me whether new or used.


*Note that a 7850 isn't equal to a R9 270; a 270 is essentially a clocked-down 270X/7870 while a 7850 is a cut-down 7870, and is equal to a R7 265 or R7 370. And yes that means an R7 370 is actually worse than an R9 270 because AMD pulled a fast one there R7 370X is the same as an R9 270X though.

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I think I am also a bit limited by my 380W power supply, as it has 6 HDDs to power, and all the usual PC electronics. A higher spec card with a fan draws a significant amount of power under load, and the fans will probably be noticeable under load.
Granted, with such a [relatively] low wattage PSU, a 750/Ti would be more acceptable at just 60W. However depending on what you have available on the 12V rail(s), you might still be able to squeeze something like a 270 in there, at 150W.

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P.S. $100CAD is about $72US or £50 to me.
I think he was more joking about the fact that the CDN dollar v. the US has slid quite a ways. After having a near-par dollar for more than half of the last decade, it's come down in the last year or so...to the point where it's been as bad as $1.50 CDN for $1 US. As for comparison to UK, well there you have the problem that things are typically more expensive in the UK--I'm betting you'd never find a used 270 there for as low as 50 pounds?
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post #21 of 24 Old 02-13-2016, 04:43 PM
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I haven't followed madvr for sometime now, but it used to never ever be limited by cpu. Enthusiasts still went with i5 and i7 setups but it didn't make any real difference in the past. Lots of advice comes in the Tim Allen format, more power, which is usually fine but rarely necessary. A nice GPU should take you as far as you need, if not worry about the CPU at that point since the GPU can be repurposed. No need to go wholesale from the beginning without knowing for sure
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post #22 of 24 Old 02-22-2016, 04:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Thrillho View Post
Sorry, that's not been my experience. My 650ti was in the mid to high 30ms range for rendering times with SuperXBR chroma upscaling with Super Res, lancos upscaling (no hope of running jinc), debanding, and error difusion 1 dithering. No image doubling enabled.
super-xbr chroma upscaling and especially error diffusion is icing on the cake. It's nice to have if your GPU is really fast. But you'll get much more bang for your buck if you spend the available power on better luma upscaling / doubling / refinement.

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I haven't followed madvr for sometime now, but it used to never ever be limited by cpu.
Fully agreed. madVR consumes a little bit more CPU than EVR, but not dramatically so. My HTPC (soon to be upgraded) currently runs on a 10 year old Intel mobile CPU which isn't even fast enough to decode 2D Blu-Rays in real time. But using LAV DXVA copyback decoding, everything runs smoothly with madVR, including doubling, super res, sharpening and all sorts of stuff (all that stuff is limited only by the GPU not the CPU). No problems at all. Since hardware 3D decoding isn't supported by LAV atm, though, I plan to upgrade the PC soon.

IMHO the only reason to upgrade the CPU atm is if the CPU is too slow for 3D decoding, or if you want to use SVP or some AviSynth scripts.
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post #23 of 24 Old 02-22-2016, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Fully agreed. madVR consumes a little bit more CPU than EVR, but not dramatically so. My HTPC (soon to be upgraded) currently runs on a 10 year old Intel mobile CPU which isn't even fast enough to decode 2D Blu-Rays in real time. But using LAV DXVA copyback decoding, everything runs smoothly with madVR, including doubling, super res, sharpening and all sorts of stuff (all that stuff is limited only by the GPU not the CPU). No problems at all. Since hardware 3D decoding isn't supported by LAV atm, though, I plan to upgrade the PC soon.

IMHO the only reason to upgrade the CPU atm is if the CPU is too slow for 3D decoding, or if you want to use SVP or some AviSynth scripts.
Which settings do you use?
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post #24 of 24 Old 02-22-2016, 09:41 PM
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Which settings do you use?
Those settings would relate to the GPU not the CPU mentioned. The GPU model is not mentioned at all. The CPU is primarily there to decode the video, not render it. At least, it is with madVR. He is saying hardware decoding can make any CPU suitable for madVR.
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