Guide: Building a 4K HTPC for madVR - Page 111 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3301 of 4210 Old 08-18-2019, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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That's good to know. I frequently type from a computer that uses an AMD B450 motherboard. At some point, I planned to purchase an official LG UHD drive if the price was low enough. At least I know now that it should be easy to flash the firmware.

What app did you use to flash it?

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post #3302 of 4210 Old 08-18-2019, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onkyoman View Post
That's good to know. I frequently type from a computer that uses an AMD B450 motherboard. At some point, I planned to purchase an official LG UHD drive if the price was low enough. At least I know now that it should be easy to flash the firmware.



What app did you use to flash it?


Just to be clear I'm talking about friendly drives. The official drives were not recommended. I used the tool on the makemkv forums. I could look into it later to be sure which one.


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post #3303 of 4210 Old 08-18-2019, 11:27 AM
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Be careful... I don't think modified software utilities can be discussed here.

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post #3304 of 4210 Old 08-18-2019, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onkyoman View Post
480 nits places the knee point (roll-off point) where tone mapping begins at 100 nits for a 10,000 nits scene peak, so it is prevents 0-100 nits from being compressed, which can cause the image to appear flat.

HDR to SDR display mapping and roll-offs are explained somewhat here:

https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php...194#pid2745194



Torrents are the primary sources that are encoded without black bars. Any 1:1 rip, regardless of aspect ratio, will be clipped correctly by the clipping algorithm. The live algorithm has an issue with blowing out the highlights in some scenes. That is the only difference.



You could, but some scenes will be brighter than they were originally mastered.



Grey blacks are typically a gamma tracking issue. Buying a colorimeter and creating a 2.20 3D LUT with DisplayCal would be your best bet for improving your gamma tracking. HDR to SDR is hard on any display with less than ideal near black gamma tracking because it renders a lot of detail near black. This would be less apparent with SDR content, as SDR doesn't require heavy tone mapping.



I can only recommend matching madVR to the calibrated gamma of your projector to get better blacks, or create a 3D LUT.

I haven't had any issues with color myself. You are trying to do HDR at 50 nits, which is quite difficult if not impossible when the source master can be as high as 10,000 nits. When I compare screenshots I've taken to Blu-ray reviews online, the hue is almost always identical and only the color saturation is slightly different. But I wouldn't say the color is incorrect.
Inputted 50 real peak nits with the assumption that he screen gain is 1.0. A variant of this screen was measured 33% lower than claimed.
Can the X-Rite ColorMunki Display measure screen gain? Is a 1.0 surface required for comparison or can the light coming from the projector be compared to the light from the screen?

Used 200-250 real nits for the LCD monitor instead of 300(specification) because it's 10 years old and I assume the backlight has dimmed. The guide states that Enter the Minimal target nits / real display peak nits (50-150 recommended for most). Is 150 an upper limit or should this be the peak nits of the display? What if a display has 500 peak nits?
Monitor gamma after calibration with the HDR templates is 2.4. 0 compression limit, 100 dynamic tuning, the rest as in your screenshot.

The monitor is an IPS and the ALR coating on the screen do raise the black floor (both have an IPS glow effect). Seen 25fL/85 nits recommended for HDR on projectors, which is not that much. Activated BC (27% more brightness), set the real nits to 67. It did not make that much of a difference. The calibration still set gamma at 2.2.
I could maximize the nits to 116 (with new lamp, closest positioning), and 164 with the other modes (which have BC on), but that would still be less than the monitor.
The issue with the dark scenes being too dark is that it shows up very similar on the monitor, which is supposed to be brighter than the projector.
Desaturation may not be the correct term, but there seems to be a loss of color vibrancy/brightness, most noticeable in dark scenes. Especially when compared to the SDR versions. I understand the algorithm compresses the nits, but there are a lot of dark scenes in movies. Grey blacks due to the display's I can understand, but the colors should be brighter. Perhaps it's a studio's creative decision with the 4K releases, and/or my subjective impression.


Soulnight's tool creates an Original folder when no previous measurements are present. What is stored in this folder, the first measurement?

There was a thread which explained the MaxCLL, MaxFALL, and all the other values, but can't find it.

(FALL algo) in this post Link claims And if real nits is lower than the no compression limit, it does not play any role except as lower limiter. So at 50 peak nits the 50 is a limiter for no compression?

With the exception of dynamic tuning/100 rather than 50, is this accurate?
Just a quick reminder on the FALL algo formula:
Below the "no compression limit":
Target nits = Peak nits
Above the "no compression limit ":
Target nits = no compression limit + %dynamicTuning/50 × 2×Fall
So the non compression limit is used as an offset/start value in the formula.
Also important, the true "no compression limit " which is being used is equal to:
max (entered real nits, entered no compression limit.)
So when neo-xp says zero no compression limit, he actually uses 150 (his entered real nits) instead.
If someone has only 50nits like myself, I would still advise to use a no compression limit of 150 since it is also used as an offset. Minimum should be 100 nits ( and I have probably already hardcoded that minimum).

Used 0 so far, and in dark scenes there is no difference. So is the compression limit 50 nits (for 50 real peak nits)?

In the formula for the target peak nits, does this part Max(no compression limit, min target / real display peak nits) refer to which ever is greater, the no compression limit or real nits?

What about in the Live algo, what if compression limit is greater than peak nits?

Not sure what overblown looks like ( with dynamic clipping in the Live algo), but in medium to bright scenes activating it (with 100 recovery strength) gives a brightness boost, similar to going from 100 to 50 dynamic tuning. Is this effect bad, because I like the increased brightness.
The files put through Soulnight's utility are darker (with/without dynamic clipping) (either FALL/BT2390) vs the Live algo without dynamic clipping. Algo's settings: 50 peak nits, 100 dynamic tuning, 100 clipping strength, dynamic target nits selection, Preset 3.
What does dynamic clipping do? In this post Link it's suggested that it cuts some of the highlights. The statistics in the tool also indicate this.
I can't see any difference with the algo (FALL or BT2390) between dynamic clipping or without. In the two attachments, under master luminance the values are different - with the algo on the left, without algo on the right. Picture 1 is FALL algo, picture 2 is BT2390. Also can't see any difference, at least the files I've tried, between the the FALL and BT2390 algos.
What are % decompressed pixels? (in the expanded statistics).
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post #3305 of 4210 Old 08-18-2019, 04:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteboy714 View Post
Just to be clear I'm talking about friendly drives. The official drives were not recommended. I used the tool on the makemkv forums. I could look into it later to be sure which one.


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MakeMKV now supports official LG UHD drives and UHD friendly drives:

https://www.makemkv.com/forum/viewto...p?f=16&t=18346

As far as I know, you use the same software to roll back the firmware. I've heard and am hoping they are more reliable at reading every UHD disc on the first try without issue because they are designed for that purpose.

I'll pass along the fact that you can use AMD motherboards to flash friendly drives without even having to use SATA 1 or IDE.
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post #3306 of 4210 Old 08-18-2019, 04:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
Be careful... I don't think modified software utilities can be discussed here.
There is a MakeMKV thread at AVS Forum. It should be okay.
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post #3307 of 4210 Old 08-18-2019, 04:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
Inputted 50 real peak nits with the assumption that he screen gain is 1.0. A variant of this screen was measured 33% lower than claimed.
Can the X-Rite ColorMunki Display measure screen gain? Is a 1.0 surface required for comparison or can the light coming from the projector be compared to the light from the screen?

Used 200-250 real nits for the LCD monitor instead of 300(specification) because it's 10 years old and I assume the backlight has dimmed. The guide states that Enter the Minimal target nits / real display peak nits (50-150 recommended for most). Is 150 an upper limit or should this be the peak nits of the display? What if a display has 500 peak nits?
Monitor gamma after calibration with the HDR templates is 2.4. 0 compression limit, 100 dynamic tuning, the rest as in your screenshot.

The monitor is an IPS and the ALR coating on the screen do raise the black floor (both have an IPS glow effect). Seen 25fL/85 nits recommended for HDR on projectors, which is not that much. Activated BC (27% more brightness), set the real nits to 67. It did not make that much of a difference. The calibration still set gamma at 2.2.
I could maximize the nits to 116 (with new lamp, closest positioning), and 164 with the other modes (which have BC on), but that would still be less than the monitor.
The issue with the dark scenes being too dark is that it shows up very similar on the monitor, which is supposed to be brighter than the projector.
Desaturation may not be the correct term, but there seems to be a loss of color vibrancy/brightness, most noticeable in dark scenes. Especially when compared to the SDR versions. I understand the algorithm compresses the nits, but there are a lot of dark scenes in movies. Grey blacks due to the display's I can understand, but the colors should be brighter. Perhaps it's a studio's creative decision with the 4K releases, and/or my subjective impression.


Soulnight's tool creates an Original folder when no previous measurements are present. What is stored in this folder, the first measurement?

There was a thread which explained the MaxCLL, MaxFALL, and all the other values, but can't find it.

(FALL algo) in this post Link claims And if real nits is lower than the no compression limit, it does not play any role except as lower limiter. So at 50 peak nits the 50 is a limiter for no compression?

With the exception of dynamic tuning/100 rather than 50, is this accurate?
Just a quick reminder on the FALL algo formula:
Below the "no compression limit":
Target nits = Peak nits
Above the "no compression limit ":
Target nits = no compression limit + %dynamicTuning/50 × 2×Fall
So the non compression limit is used as an offset/start value in the formula.
Also important, the true "no compression limit " which is being used is equal to:
max (entered real nits, entered no compression limit.)
So when neo-xp says zero no compression limit, he actually uses 150 (his entered real nits) instead.
If someone has only 50nits like myself, I would still advise to use a no compression limit of 150 since it is also used as an offset. Minimum should be 100 nits ( and I have probably already hardcoded that minimum).

Used 0 so far, and in dark scenes there is no difference. So is the compression limit 50 nits (for 50 real peak nits)?

In the formula for the target peak nits, does this part Max(no compression limit, min target / real display peak nits) refer to which ever is greater, the no compression limit or real nits?

What about in the Live algo, what if compression limit is greater than peak nits?

Not sure what overblown looks like ( with dynamic clipping in the Live algo), but in medium to bright scenes activating it (with 100 recovery strength) gives a brightness boost, similar to going from 100 to 50 dynamic tuning. Is this effect bad, because I like the increased brightness.
The files put through Soulnight's utility are darker (with/without dynamic clipping) (either FALL/BT2390) vs the Live algo without dynamic clipping. Algo's settings: 50 peak nits, 100 dynamic tuning, 100 clipping strength, dynamic target nits selection, Preset 3.
What does dynamic clipping do? In this post Link it's suggested that it cuts some of the highlights. The statistics in the tool also indicate this.
I can't see any difference with the algo (FALL or BT2390) between dynamic clipping or without. In the two attachments, under master luminance the values are different - with the algo on the left, without algo on the right. Picture 1 is FALL algo, picture 2 is BT2390. Also can't see any difference, at least the files I've tried, between the the FALL and BT2390 algos.
What are % decompressed pixels? (in the expanded statistics).
That is a Goddamn mess. I'll have to read through it and reply some other time.
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post #3308 of 4210 Old 08-18-2019, 05:31 PM
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That is a Goddamn mess. I'll have to read through it and reply some other time.
Well onkyoman was good for a laugh today lol, don't know why this was to funny to me but it was.

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post #3309 of 4210 Old 08-19-2019, 10:34 AM
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Guys, considering latest fiasco with previous Win Update and necessity to roll back, with lots of hustle attached, I was wondering if it safe to update to this one: https://www.techradar.com/news/windo...o-task-manager and it will not screw HDR as before:

Quote:
I need some help here, latest Windows 10 May 2019 Update broke HDR settings or something, any HDR move is now displayed in magenta colours, and even if I tried to switch on HDR in Windows (HDR for games) it does the same, I searched quickly in the forum but could not find any solution.

Anyone came across this?

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post #3310 of 4210 Old 08-19-2019, 11:17 PM
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it's a preview build you are pretty much asking for issues here.
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post #3311 of 4210 Old 08-26-2019, 07:15 AM
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Anybody tone mapping with a ryzen 2400g? Was wondering if it could be done with basically everything else turned off. Thinking about the smallest Kodi box I could build and still have the ability to use madvr with tone mapping. Preferably without a dedicated GPU.

My 1060 handles it fine. And still renders at like 24. Seems like I could have less power and be ok. Not sure what the minimum is though.

EDIT## Seems like it is unnecessary, HDR isn't great on my Sammy when set to passthrough, but on my TCL's it looks as expected. Still might bite the bullet and build a mini pc with something like a mini 1070.

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post #3312 of 4210 Old 08-26-2019, 06:39 PM
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if you want it small look at zotac zbox.
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post #3313 of 4210 Old 08-26-2019, 07:06 PM
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if you want it small look at zotac zbox.


Yeah those are sweet. But the diy guy in me has a hard time buying a prebuilt. Mainly because of cost. I think I worked out my HDR issue though. Probably going to buy a little Odroid to run Coreelec to play around with.

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Can someone give me a pointer here. I am trying to having a group for 720p60 and 720p24.

I thought I had done it right, but when I play a video that is 720p 23.976, the profile for standard 720 is being used because it is using NGU low instead of NGU high which I have set in the 24p profile.

I have confirmed this by adjsting the NGU setting in the standard 720p profile.
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post #3315 of 4210 Old 08-27-2019, 04:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Probably going to buy a little Odroid to run Coreelec to play around with.
I just found out about the ODROID-N2 recently. It looks like a good replacement for the Rasberry Pi with actual support for HDR passthrough on a Linux operating system. I'm curious what you can do with the Google Play Store mentioned in the Odroid documentation.

The specs look promising and the price is very good.

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post #3316 of 4210 Old 08-27-2019, 04:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Can someone give me a pointer here. I am trying to having a group for 720p60 and 720p24.

I thought I had done it right, but when I play a video that is 720p 23.976, the profile for standard 720 is being used because it is using NGU low instead of NGU high which I have set in the 24p profile.

I have confirmed this by adjsting the NGU setting in the standard 720p profile.
You are missing (deintFps <= XX).

Try adapting these rules:

if (deintFps <= 25) and (srcHeight > 1080) "2160p25"
else if (deintFps <= 25) and (srcWidth > 1920) "2160p25"

else if (deintFps > 25) and (srcHeight > 1080) "2160p60"
else if (deintFps > 25) and (srcWidth > 1920) "2160p60"

else if (deintFps <= 25) and ((srcHeight > 720) and (srcHeight <= 1080)) "1080p25"
else if (deintFps <= 25) and ((srcWidth > 1280) and (srcWidth <= 1920)) "1080p25"

else if (deintFps > 25) and ((srcHeight > 720) and (srcHeight <= 1080)) "1080p60"
else if (deintFps > 25) and ((srcWidth > 1280) and (srcWidth <= 1920)) "1080p60"

else if (deintFps <= 25) and ((srcHeight > 540) and (srcHeight <= 720)) "720p25"
else if (deintFps <= 25) and ((srcWidth > 960) and (srcWidth <= 1280)) "720p25"

else if (deintFps > 25) and ((srcHeight > 540) and (srcHeight <= 720)) "720p60"
else if (deintFps > 25) and ((srcWidth > 960) and (srcWidth <= 1280)) "720p60"

else if (deintFps <= 25) and ((srcWidth <= 960) and (srcHeight <= 540)) "540p25"

else if (deintFps > 25) and ((srcWidth <= 960) and (srcHeight <= 540)) "540p60"
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post #3317 of 4210 Old 08-27-2019, 05:07 PM
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I just found out about the ODROID-N2 recently. It looks like a good replacement for the Rasberry Pi with actual support for HDR passthrough on a Linux operating system. I'm curious what you can do with the Google Play Store mentioned in the Odroid documentation.

The specs look promising and the price is very good.
Yeah I was debating whether it would be better to use Android or CoreElec. With android you could get stuff like Netflix, but with it not being certified the program is gimped so not really worth it imo. Have you seen the kit that just came out preloaded with coreElec? Pretty sweet deal ready to go out of the box. I think I am going to get it. If anything just to play around, maybe do some retro gaming on it.

https://ameridroid.com/collections/n...reelec-edition
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You are missing (deintFps <= XX).

Try adapting these rules:

if (deintFps <= 25) and (srcHeight > 1080) "2160p25"
else if (deintFps <= 25) and (srcWidth > 1920) "2160p25"

else if (deintFps > 25) and (srcHeight > 1080) "2160p60"
else if (deintFps > 25) and (srcWidth > 1920) "2160p60"

else if (deintFps <= 25) and ((srcHeight > 720) and (srcHeight <= 1080)) "1080p25"
else if (deintFps <= 25) and ((srcWidth > 1280) and (srcWidth <= 1920)) "1080p25"

else if (deintFps > 25) and ((srcHeight > 720) and (srcHeight <= 1080)) "1080p60"
else if (deintFps > 25) and ((srcWidth > 1280) and (srcWidth <= 1920)) "1080p60"

else if (deintFps <= 25) and ((srcHeight > 540) and (srcHeight <= 720)) "720p25"
else if (deintFps <= 25) and ((srcWidth > 960) and (srcWidth <= 1280)) "720p25"

else if (deintFps > 25) and ((srcHeight > 540) and (srcHeight <= 720)) "720p60"
else if (deintFps > 25) and ((srcWidth > 960) and (srcWidth <= 1280)) "720p60"

else if (deintFps <= 25) and ((srcWidth <= 960) and (srcHeight <= 540)) "540p25"

else if (deintFps > 25) and ((srcWidth <= 960) and (srcHeight <= 540)) "540p60"
Thanks man I will add them now and see how she goes.

EDIT#### Thank you these did the trick, man upscaling 720p really puts a hurting on the ol' gpu. Had to not some things down as I was testing with settings in your guide. Got them good enough though I think.

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Last edited by whiteboy714; 08-27-2019 at 05:38 PM.
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post #3318 of 4210 Old 08-28-2019, 06:30 PM
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madVR by default is supersampling 720p make sure it doesn't do that and you should be good using jinc for the last scaling step is not really worth it too.
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post #3319 of 4210 Old 08-29-2019, 04:00 AM
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Guys, since Geforce 1080ti come affordable, I have had and idea of upgrading my MSI Geforce 1060 6G with MSI 1080ti 11Gb, but is it really worth it?, I have most of madVr 1080->4K up-conversion settings at its mid range at the moment. Is it worth $500 upgrade? It is 5.5/6 meters viewing distance with 180" screen.

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post #3320 of 4210 Old 08-29-2019, 05:55 AM - Thread Starter
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When I Google the Sony VPL-HW65ES in your signature, it says it is a 1080p projector. In that case, you don't need the extra horsepower.

If you had a true 4K projector, it could be worth the investment. But I would wait until the next build is released to determine what you will be upgrading for. Tone mapping HDR10 content at maximum quality, adding a 3D LUT and increasing your upscaling settings can all be worth it when you are using a projector and screen of that size.
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post #3321 of 4210 Old 08-29-2019, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Onkyoman View Post
When I Google the Sony VPL-HW65ES in your signature, it says it is a 1080p projector. In that case, you don't need the extra horsepower.

If you had a true 4K projector, it could be worth the investment. But I would wait until the next build is released to determine what you will be upgrading for. Tone mapping HDR10 content at maximum quality, adding a 3D LUT and increasing your upscaling settings can all be worth it when you are using a projector and screen of that size.
Apologies, I completely forgot to update my signature, 65W is amazing projector but long ago sold, and updated with 4K JVC x7900 (RS540)

Edited: signature now updated.

4K JVC DLA-X7900BE (RS540); 7.1 Audio: Atmos, DTS-HD, True-HD, Screen: Black Widow Dulux DS1 (on the wall); TV: 4K LG 55'
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post #3322 of 4210 Old 08-29-2019, 06:20 AM
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Apologies, I completely forgot to update my signature, 65W is amazing projector but long ago sold, and updated with 4K JVC x7900 (RS540)

Edited: signature now updated.
Still probably not worth it as the eshift projector is not true 4K. Also, your screen is huge but you sit too far back to probably benefit from native 4K anyway. If you upgrade to native 4K and push your seating to within 1 screen width or closer, I think the upgrade would be well worth it.
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post #3323 of 4210 Old 09-01-2019, 06:47 PM
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Hey guys, I have a quick question regarding a NAS. I am new to it and have done some reading. I’ve been looking at the synology devices. Right now I run my HTPC off hard drives that are either directly in the HTPC or external hard drive. I am looking at streaming the movies to other devices/TVs in the house however I want to keep a direct connection to the HTPC and not stream as I don’t want to worry about network issues or anything as that is where I do my favourite watching so to speak. Is this possible with a NAS or is it strictly streaming? Can I plug the entire thing into the HTPC and it will see it as an external hard drive or something?

Thanks for any help. Sorry for the newbie question.

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post #3324 of 4210 Old 09-02-2019, 03:09 PM
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Anyone able to comment on the madvr performance of an amd 5700?

TCL 65R625 -- Denon X1400h -- Klipsch RP600m -- RP450C -- Micca M-6S 6.5 -- Dual Klipsch RW-10
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post #3325 of 4210 Old 09-03-2019, 05:33 AM - Thread Starter
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I've only heard of a couple of reports. I'm not sure exactly how fast it would be with madVR, but it is probably inline with its video game performance, which is just above the RTX 2060.

However, the only models available from AMD suffer from some thermal throttling and would likely be noisy under load for watching videos due to its subpar fan. If you ever wanted to buy one, I would wait for a custom model with a better blower.
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post #3326 of 4210 Old 09-03-2019, 06:42 AM
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i will get one soon.

availability is currently not great except for cards with names like thicc...

and if you want here is an exploitation of GPU cooler types:
https://www.howtogeek.com/365215/wha...ir-gpu-cooler/

i didn't read it but the image are good enough you don't want a blower.
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post #3327 of 4210 Old 09-03-2019, 07:44 AM
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I've only heard of a couple of reports. I'm not sure exactly how fast it would be with madVR, but it is probably inline with its video game performance, which is just above the RTX 2060.



However, the only models available from AMD suffer from some thermal throttling and would likely be noisy under load for watching videos due to its subpar fan. If you ever wanted to buy one, I would wait for a custom model with a better blower.

I wasn't sure if that's how performance worked with madvr comparing AMD and Nvidia.

I figured stock on aib cards had settled down by now. Apparently not.

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post #3328 of 4210 Old 09-03-2019, 08:06 AM
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Hey guys, I have a quick question regarding a NAS. I am new to it and have done some reading. I’ve been looking at the synology devices. Right now I run my HTPC off hard drives that are either directly in the HTPC or external hard drive. I am looking at streaming the movies to other devices/TVs in the house however I want to keep a direct connection to the HTPC and not stream as I don’t want to worry about network issues or anything as that is where I do my favourite watching so to speak. Is this possible with a NAS or is it strictly streaming? Can I plug the entire thing into the HTPC and it will see it as an external hard drive or something?

Thanks for any help. Sorry for the newbie question.
NAS stands for "network attached storage". There's no such thing as plugging this into the PC. You get to it via a network. The NAS controller is some form of computer running its own operating system. If you have gigabit networking, you'll have no problems with your media being on a network drive in the house with multiple people playing at same time.

If you want your HTPC to have the storage inside of it instead, then put the drives into your HTPC and share them from there making your HTPC double up as the NAS and HTPC.

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post #3329 of 4210 Old 09-04-2019, 06:50 AM
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the direct plug you are looking for is an RJ45 present on any PC which is capable of over 100 mbyte sec which you will get if your hard drivers are fast enough.
this is so fast UHD BD is like a joke for a connection like this.
an SMB share is seen as an "external" harddrive and will pretty much work like one.

don't get confused by words like "streaming" do you know that AMD calls it GPU cores streaming processors.
use cat 5e or better cables and you are fine.
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post #3330 of 4210 Old 09-07-2019, 03:01 AM
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That is a Goddamn mess. I'll have to read through it and reply some other time.
There is a lot of information, just trying to parse though it.

Was in the process of testing but had some display issues. Took the time to do some reading, but there are still some questions:

If real peak nits is supposed to be displays actual peak nit, why are some users settings this value lower? I've seen OLED owners with 150 or lower real peak nits set in madvr. Aren't these displays capable of ~700 nits?

The guide says when enabling dynamic clipping in the Live algo there is the risk of blown out highlight detail. Is there an example to how this blowout manifest itself, link or screenshots? Or a specific scene in a demo or movie I could try?

Last edited by noob00224; 09-07-2019 at 03:26 AM.
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