Guide: Building a 4K HTPC for madVR - Page 120 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3571 of 3730 Old 11-08-2019, 01:08 AM
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Originally Posted by coxy2416 View Post
For now I am just going to go back to the Shield for its ease and simplicity. I'll give MadVR another shot when I have some more time as I seem to be spending more time trying to configure a movie then watch it.

I get and see the possibilities of MadVR with DTM and hopefully something a little more user friendly will come along.
I'm not sure what you mean by "a little more user friendly", but my setup couldn't be anymore user friendly. I hit a button on my remote to fire up my kodi / plex player and pick what I want to watch and it starts playing. What you're having problems with is the initial setup. That's not the same thing as using it. Once things are properly setup you never touch the setup again.

Anyways, I also have an nvidia shield and the picture from madVR destroys it.The shield got moved out of the theater and into another room. It would never be used in the theater. If your nvidia shield is looking better then you can only imagine how much better things should be looking if you properly setup the madVR setup.

Anyways, yea if you're not willing to take some debug steps the problem(s) will never be solved. I asked for a few specifics. You came back frustrated trying tons of other things but never did the things I suggested (which weren't necessarily fixes but had the purpose of gathering more information).

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post #3572 of 3730 Old 11-08-2019, 03:37 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by "a little more user friendly", but my setup couldn't be anymore user friendly. I hit a button on my remote to fire up my kodi / plex player and pick what I want to watch and it starts playing. What you're having problems with is the initial setup. That's not the same thing as using it. Once things are properly setup you never touch the setup again.

Anyways, I also have an nvidia shield and the picture from madVR destroys it.The shield got moved out of the theater and into another room. It would never be used in the theater. If your nvidia shield is looking better then you can only imagine how much better things should be looking if you properly setup the madVR setup.

Anyways, yea if you're not willing to take some debug steps the problem(s) will never be solved. I asked for a few specifics. You came back frustrated trying tons of other things but never did the things I suggested (which weren't necessarily fixes but had the purpose of gathering more information).
Jus so that we are on the same page, here are a few things:

1) Using MadVR is as easy as any other media player once it is setup. Once all you settings are configured there is nothing you have to do but watch the movie. Maybe I should have stated that a little better. The user friendliness I am referring to is on the setup. As an example, an Apple TV is extremely user friendly to setup but MadVR is not but once setup there are both just as easy to use
2) Do know that I tried and/or verified the suggestions that were given by yourself, zombie10k, Sirmaster and Onkyoman and greatly appreciate them as without them I would be even worse off. I think it was Sirmaster's suggestion for the Nvidia Control settings that fixed my stuttering issue in John Wick 2. The only suggestion I have yet to try is a different player other then Kodi. But since the videos will play fine on Kodi through the Shield I do not believe that is the issue.
3) I have probably spent over 10 hours trying to adjust and change settings to correct the issue without any luck and that does not include the hours before hand of researching MadVR

I am baffled as to what would be causing the issue as I believe I have it setup properly for the most part. There is just something I am missing or something in my computer system causing the 1080P look of these movies [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/confused.gif[/IMG]

Come the weekend I may dive back into this as I really want to be able to use it and at that point I would still appreciate any help from yourself or any of the other forum members.

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post #3573 of 3730 Old 11-08-2019, 06:24 AM
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you are aware that you are using an in work beta build of madVR?
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post #3574 of 3730 Old 11-08-2019, 06:52 AM
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you are aware that you are using an in work beta build of madVR?
Yes I do. I wanted to try it out for the DTM and unfortunately have had issues with my setup.

And that’s to be expected with betas as well as HTPC because there can always be unforeseen circumstances as everyone is running it on a different setup.

I just have to figure out why the resolutions looks like a bad 1080 movie and not a crisp 4K movie.

Even if MadVR HDR settings aren’t proper and I am getting a picture that’s too dark or light shouldn’t my resolution still look pretty good?

I will probably give it one more shot as it’s nagging me why it’s not working.

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post #3575 of 3730 Old 11-08-2019, 06:59 AM - Thread Starter
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I don't know why resolution would be the issue, but there could be many factors that make the image appear soft because of the number of tone mapping parameters available in the test builds.

I would recommend waiting until an official build is available with optimized tone mapping parameters and simplified set up dialogs before trying again.

Getting into a HTPC with madVR is never going to be as user-friendly as the Shield or Apple TV, or as reliable, but you do it for the customization and quality of the end result. I wouldn't say it is for everyone.
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post #3576 of 3730 Old 11-08-2019, 07:32 AM
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Getting into a HTPC with madVR is never going to be as user-friendly as the Shield or Apple TV, or as reliable, but you do it for the customization and quality of the end result. I wouldn't say it is for everyone.
Yea I dont agree with this. Once that stuff is setup, its as easy or easier than those other devices. Those other devices have issues also. For example, on the nvidia shield in the living room, hitting the back button repeatedly within the plex app puts you on the nvidia shield desktop. My wife is constantly struggling with this. On my HTPC, I was able to easily customize that behavior so it just goes as far back as the root menu only.

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post #3577 of 3730 Old 11-08-2019, 07:38 AM
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The only suggestion I have yet to try is a different player other then Kodi. But since the videos will play fine on Kodi through the Shield I do not believe that is the issue.
We have no basis of making this claim at this point. The fact that Kodi runs fine on the shield is not relevant at all to how it may or may not be running on the PC. It's a completely different operating system and code base between the two. And Kodi will run fine, but its important to know if your playback problems are caused by DSPlayer or by the renderer. At this point we don't know because you haven't tested with another player to see (yet).

Lots of things can make a picture look soft. One of them is poor contrast. If you have a color space mismatch such as indicated in the overlay "downstream is limited" or whatever it said, that could possibly be causing the problem also. I saw your destkop was at RGB full and something else was working in limited.

How about testing an SDR video on both to eliminate tone mapping settings from the scenario?

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post #3578 of 3730 Old 11-08-2019, 07:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Oh, come on, you can probably concede the set up process for a PC running Windows is more convoluted and complex than simply installing Kodi or Plex on the Shield and importing your media collection and hitting play. A PC is also running Windows underneath, so you are far more likely to encounter bugs related to Windows or the many driver installations required for the connected devices. I have encountered a litany of bugs from various users as well as experienced many myself.

Advanced users like yourself who have obtained the necessary fundamental knowledge of how everything works and applied trial-and-error over months to get things working correctly may get a reliable experience without having to redo any calibration for months, but you don't always get to start there as a new user with your own unique set up without some hiccups or frustration.
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post #3579 of 3730 Old 11-08-2019, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by coxy2416 View Post
Yes I do. I wanted to try it out for the DTM and unfortunately have had issues with my setup.

And that’s to be expected with betas as well as HTPC because there can always be unforeseen circumstances as everyone is running it on a different setup.

I just have to figure out why the resolutions looks like a bad 1080 movie and not a crisp 4K movie.

Even if MadVR HDR settings aren’t proper and I am getting a picture that’s too dark or light shouldn’t my resolution still look pretty good?

I will probably give it one more shot as it’s nagging me why it’s not working.
Did you ever try something other than kodi? That's an easy place to start...

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post #3580 of 3730 Old 11-08-2019, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by coxy2416 View Post
The only suggestion I have yet to try is a different player other then Kodi. But since the videos will play fine on Kodi through the Shield I do not believe that is the issue.
We have no basis of making this claim at this point. The fact that Kodi runs fine on the shield is not relevant at all to how it may or may not be running on the PC. It's a completely different operating system and code base between the two. And Kodi will run fine, but its important to know if your playback problems are caused by DSPlayer or by the renderer. At this point we don't know because you haven't tested with another player to see (yet).

Lots of things can make a picture look soft. One of them is poor contrast. If you have a color space mismatch such as indicated in the overlay "downstream is limited" or whatever it said, that could possibly be causing the problem also. I saw your destkop was at RGB full and something else was working in limited.

How about testing an SDR video on both to eliminate tone mapping settings from the scenario?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coxy2416 View Post
Yes I do. I wanted to try it out for the DTM and unfortunately have had issues with my setup.

And that’️s to be expected with betas as well as HTPC because there can always be unforeseen circumstances as everyone is running it on a different setup.

I just have to figure out why the resolutions looks like a bad 1080 movie and not a crisp 4K movie.

Even if MadVR HDR settings aren’️t proper and I am getting a picture that’️s too dark or light shouldn’️t my resolution still look pretty good?

I will probably give it one more shot as it’️s nagging me why it’️s not working.
Did you ever try something other than kodi? That's an easy place to start...

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
I think you both have a good point and I think I will try a different player to see what my results are for just playing a 1080P movie.

I have VLC player so I will run a 1080P movie through that and see how it looks.

I can also try a different media player. I have just stuck with Kodi as I am familiar with it for the setup. I think Zombie10k sent me some instruction for Jriver but I haven’t given that a shot as of yet.

Again I really do want to get this working as I see what it can be if I get it working correctly.
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post #3581 of 3730 Old 11-08-2019, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Onkyoman View Post
Oh, come on, you can probably concede the set up process for a PC running Windows is more convoluted and complex than simply installing Kodi or Plex on the Shield and importing your media collection and hitting play. A PC is also running Windows underneath, so you are far more likely to encounter bugs related to Windows or the many driver installations required for the connected devices. I have encountered a litany of bugs from various users as well as experienced many myself.



Advanced users like yourself who have obtained the necessary fundamental knowledge of how everything works and applied trial-and-error over months to get things working correctly may get a reliable experience without having to redo any calibration for months, but you don't always get to start there as a new user with your own unique set up without some hiccups or frustration.


Thank you. Let's be real here. HTPCs while great can be a pain. Even for someone that has used them for years.

But that's part of the fun I think for many. The advanced control your have over your device.
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post #3582 of 3730 Old 11-08-2019, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by coxy2416 View Post
I think you both have a good point and I think I will try a different player to see what my results are for just playing a 1080P movie.

I have VLC player so I will run a 1080P movie through that and see how it looks.

I can also try a different media player. I have just stuck with Kodi as I am familiar with it for the setup. I think Zombie10k sent me some instruction for Jriver but I haven’t given that a shot as of yet.

Again I really do want to get this working as I see what it can be if I get it working correctly.

I prefer and recommend MPC-BE. Give that a try...


https://www.videohelp.com/software/MPC-BE
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post #3583 of 3730 Old 11-08-2019, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coxy2416 View Post
I think you both have a good point and I think I will try a different player to see what my results are for just playing a 1080P movie.

I have VLC player so I will run a 1080P movie through that and see how it looks.

I can also try a different media player. I have just stuck with Kodi as I am familiar with it for the setup. I think Zombie10k sent me some instruction for Jriver but I haven’️t given that a shot as of yet.

Again I really do want to get this working as I see what it can be if I get it working correctly.

I prefer and recommend MPC-BE. Give that a try...


https://www.videohelp.com/software/MPC-BE
I can certainly try that. I’ll have a look at that when I get home. Is it easy to configure to work with MadVR?
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post #3584 of 3730 Old 11-08-2019, 12:56 PM
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I can certainly try that. I’ll have a look at that when I get home. Is it easy to configure to work with MadVR?
I didn't find it too troublesome.

In the grand scheme of things, the problems that arise are due to having to use multiple app's, gpu drivers/apps, and of course the fun introduced by the OS (win10 in particular). If by some coding marvel madVR was an all-in-one app, we wouldn't have any issues.


I'm sure you've seen the detailed guide, if not review that - https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=259188


Short version:

Install - madVR, LAV filters, Player of choice (MPC-BE is my fav)

Install madVR 0.92.17, then install over with any beta versions you'd like (they're up over build 100 now).

LAV Video - set hardware decoder to D3D11 (I believe everything is already set correctly).

MPC-BE ->options->video->"video renderer" madVR

MPC-BE ->options->external filters->should be 4 LAV boxes checked here

Set GPU to full range, RGB, 0-255

OS (Win10) - HDR set to off


That should be basically all of it if my memory serves me correctly...

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post #3585 of 3730 Old 11-08-2019, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by coxy2416 View Post
I think you both have a good point and I think I will try a different player to see what my results are for just playing a 1080P movie.

I have VLC player so I will run a 1080P movie through that and see how it looks.

I can also try a different media player. I have just stuck with Kodi as I am familiar with it for the setup. I think Zombie10k sent me some instruction for Jriver but I haven’t given that a shot as of yet.

Again I really do want to get this working as I see what it can be if I get it working correctly.
Jriver is a whole media center similar to kodi. Vlc is not a direct show capable player and doesn’t support madvr. Neither of those are good choices for a quick test to tell you something. Go get mpc-hc and try that. It’s a well known entity and just a player no media management etc. It would be easy in that to switch between madvr and a different renderer to test. Also would like to know is this:

How does a 1080p video look inside madvr compared to shield?

What resolution is the shield outputting? Let’s see the projector info screen on the shield vs when pc is playing 4K madvr.

Are you able to pause and snap a photo that shows what you mean by looks like 1080p compared to the shield? I understand if it won’t translate well here via a photo. Is the picture soft? Pixelated? Showing jaggies? What are you playing to judge it?
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post #3586 of 3730 Old 11-09-2019, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Jriver is a whole media center similar to kodi. Vlc is not a direct show capable player and doesn’t support madvr. Neither of those are good choices for a quick test to tell you something. Go get mpc-hc and try that. It’s a well known entity and just a player no media management etc. It would be easy in that to switch between madvr and a different renderer to test. Also would like to know is this:

How does a 1080p video look inside madvr compared to shield?

What resolution is the shield outputting? Let’s see the projector info screen on the shield vs when pc is playing 4K madvr.

Are you able to pause and snap a photo that shows what you mean by looks like 1080p compared to the shield? I understand if it won’t translate well here via a photo. Is the picture soft? Pixelated? Showing jaggies? What are you playing to judge it?
So I tried playing some 1080 material through Kodi with MadVR and all and all I would say it looked pretty good. Definitely way better then the Shield could ever do. And looks better then the 4K material I am trying to play.

I paused and took a photo in Kodi and hopefully you can see what I am talking about. The picture looks soft and pixelated.
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post #3587 of 3730 Old 11-09-2019, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Jriver is a whole media center similar to kodi. Vlc is not a direct show capable player and doesn’️t support madvr. Neither of those are good choices for a quick test to tell you something. Go get mpc-hc and try that. It’️s a well known entity and just a player no media management etc. It would be easy in that to switch between madvr and a different renderer to test. Also would like to know is this:

How does a 1080p video look inside madvr compared to shield?

What resolution is the shield outputting? Let’️s see the projector info screen on the shield vs when pc is playing 4K madvr.

Are you able to pause and snap a photo that shows what you mean by looks like 1080p compared to the shield? I understand if it won’️t translate well here via a photo. Is the picture soft? Pixelated? Showing jaggies? What are you playing to judge it?
So I tried playing some 1080 material through Kodi with MadVR and all and all I would say it looked pretty good. Definitely way better then the Shield could ever do. And looks better then the 4K material I am trying to play.

I paused and took a photo in Kodi and hopefully you can see what I am talking about. The picture looks soft and pixelated.
Ended up watching a bit more 1080 material and overall it wasn’t looking as good as I initially thought. Definitely something really messed up with my system
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post #3588 of 3730 Old 11-09-2019, 05:51 PM
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So I tried playing some 1080 material through Kodi with MadVR and all and all I would say it looked pretty good. Definitely way better then the Shield could ever do. And looks better then the 4K material I am trying to play.

I paused and took a photo in Kodi and hopefully you can see what I am talking about. The picture looks soft and pixelated.
Zooming up in the face it looks super blocky. Is this what your'e talking about? Something's majorly wrong that's not at all how it should look.

How's the same scene look in MPC-HC in EVR renderer and also in MPC-HC using madVR?

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post #3589 of 3730 Old 11-09-2019, 05:56 PM
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So I tried playing some 1080 material through Kodi with MadVR and all and all I would say it looked pretty good. Definitely way better then the Shield could ever do. And looks better then the 4K material I am trying to play.

I paused and took a photo in Kodi and hopefully you can see what I am talking about. The picture looks soft and pixelated.
Zooming up in the face it looks super blocky. Is this what your'e talking about? Something's majorly wrong that's not at all how it should look.

How's the same scene look in MPC-HC in EVR renderer and also in MPC-HC using madVR?
That’s kind of what I’m taking about. It just looks off and not a sharp clear picture like I get with the Shield. Kind of like its pixelated and out of focus.

Looks the same in MPC-BE with MadVR. As I said it’s does not look good at all and I wonder if it’s something in my computer system causing it?

I have tried every setting I could think of and it never fixes the issue.
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post #3590 of 3730 Old 11-09-2019, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by coxy2416 View Post
That’s kind of what I’m taking about. It just looks off and not a sharp clear picture like I get with the Shield. Kind of like its pixelated and out of focus.

Looks the same in MPC-BE with MadVR. As I said it’s does not look good at all and I wonder if it’s something in my computer system causing it?

I have tried every setting I could think of and it never fixes the issue.
Again asking for how it looks playing mpc using another renderer like evr ?
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post #3591 of 3730 Old 11-09-2019, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coxy2416 View Post
That’s kind of what I’m taking about. It just looks off and not a sharp clear picture like I get with the Shield. Kind of like its pixelated and out of focus.

Looks the same in MPC-BE with MadVR. As I said it’s does not look good at all and I wonder if it’s something in my computer system causing it?

I have tried every setting I could think of and it never fixes the issue.
Try a different pc?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

--------------------------------------------------
Source: HTPC w/madVR, Video: Epson 5040, 150" 16:9, Audio: Onkyo RZ 830 avr, 5.1.4 Atmos setup. 5 speaker Energy C Series: L/R C300's, C C-C100, SR/SL C50's, 4 in-ceiling Micca R-8c. Subwoofer: MiniMarty um18 w/NX3000D.
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post #3592 of 3730 Old 11-09-2019, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by coxy2416 View Post
So

I paused and took a photo in Kodi and hopefully you can see what I am talking about. The picture looks soft and pixelated.
As @markmon1 stated..... that is NOT how it should look.

It looks "blurred" "out of focus" because there is no texture detail..... almost like looking a VERY low bitrate compressed video.
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post #3593 of 3730 Old 11-09-2019, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by coxy2416 View Post
So

I paused and took a photo in Kodi and hopefully you can see what I am talking about. The picture looks soft and pixelated.
As @markmon1 stated..... that is NOT how it should look.[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif[/IMG]

It looks "blurred" "out of focus" because there is no texture detail..... almost like looking a VERY low bitrate compressed video.
That’s a good analogy and how it looks. Just no idea why.
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post #3594 of 3730 Old 11-09-2019, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidinGA View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by coxy2416 View Post
That’️s kind of what I’️m taking about. It just looks off and not a sharp clear picture like I get with the Shield. Kind of like its pixelated and out of focus.

Looks the same in MPC-BE with MadVR. As I said it’️s does not look good at all and I wonder if it’️s something in my computer system causing it?

I have tried every setting I could think of and it never fixes the issue.
Try a different pc?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
I’ll have to see if the other computer in the house can run the 2060.
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post #3595 of 3730 Old 11-09-2019, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coxy2416 View Post
That’s kind of what I’m taking about. It just looks off and not a sharp clear picture like I get with the Shield. Kind of like its pixelated and out of focus.

Looks the same in MPC-BE with MadVR. As I said it’s does not look good at all and I wonder if it’s something in my computer system causing it?

I have tried every setting I could think of and it never fixes the issue.
Keep in mind, madvr should look better than the shield in almost every aspect. No one would be interested in it if it made stuff look blurry or lower res. I can’t even watch the Roku or shield anymore with 1080p content because madvr upscales it so well and it looks terrible now on the shield.

So yea we already know there’s a problem in your computer. But no one can just magically say “oh it’s the blah go change this”. Instead, we need to try different things (that aren’t fixes but that gather data) to eliminate what it’s not then we are left with what it must be due to elimination. At this point we have not isolated madvr and tested another renderer. Looks like we did just eliminate displayer as the cause.

So waiting to hear back how evr renderer compare to madvr and shield. Evr should look same as shield on 1080p non hdr content.
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post #3596 of 3730 Old 11-09-2019, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by coxy2416 View Post
So I tried playing some 1080 material through Kodi with MadVR and all and all I would say it looked pretty good. Definitely way better then the Shield could ever do. And looks better then the 4K material I am trying to play.

I paused and took a photo in Kodi and hopefully you can see what I am talking about. The picture looks soft and pixelated.
That looks like oversharpening/enhance details effect.

What are the settings in:
madvr>processing >artifact removal>reduce compression artifact
>processing >artifact removal>reduce random noise
>processing >artifact removal>image enhancements
>scaling algorithms>upscaling refinement
>trade quality for performance


In NVCP >Video> Adjust video image settings.

Sharpness settings of projector?
Not sure if JVC's have some sort of upscaling details in the projector menu.

What kind of HDMI cables are used?

Have you tried from GPU to PJ directly?

What is the source exactly?

Screenshots would be easier for all of these.
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post #3597 of 3730 Old 11-09-2019, 07:20 PM
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Looks like a high artifact removal / de-noising / smoothing filter to me.
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post #3598 of 3730 Old 11-09-2019, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by coxy2416 View Post
So I tried playing some 1080 material through Kodi with MadVR and all and all I would say it looked pretty good. Definitely way better then the Shield could ever do. And looks better then the 4K material I am trying to play.

I paused and took a photo in Kodi and hopefully you can see what I am talking about. The picture looks soft and pixelated.
That looks like oversharpening/enhance details effect.

What are the settings in:
madvr>processing >artifact removal>reduce compression artifact
>processing >artifact removal>reduce random noise
>processing >artifact removal>image enhancements
>scaling algorithms>upscaling refinement
>trade quality for performance


In NVCP >Video> Adjust video image settings.

Sharpness settings of projector?
Not sure if JVC's have some sort of upscaling details in the projector menu.

What kind of HDMI cables are used?

Have you tried from GPU to PJ directly?

What is the source exactly?

Screenshots would be easier for all of these.
I will have to double check all my setting in MadVR next time I’m on the computer but essentially all settings except for the HDR settings and image upscaling are turned off.

There is a enhancement setting on the JVC and it’s set to 4 but I’ve tried dialling it down and it does not fix the issue.

The HDMI cable is a certified cable from monoprice.

I have not tried going directly to the projector as of yet. It’s currently routed through an Anthem MRX720.

The source files are all 4K MKV files. They play fine through the Shield so I don’t think they are the issue.

I will need to test out another renderer to make sure it’s not MadVR causing the issue. And possibly trying a different computer.
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post #3599 of 3730 Old 11-09-2019, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
Looks like a high artifact removal / de-noising / smoothing filter to me.
Other then the HDR settings, chroma setting and image upscale settings everything else is turned off.
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post #3600 of 3730 Old 11-09-2019, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by coxy2416 View Post
Other then the HDR settings, chroma setting and image upscale settings everything else is turned off.
Well none of those things would show in that screenshot anyways. And those filters could be done outside of madVR like in the player itself or even in the GPU drivers. Or even in the projector, but you said you already checked that one.
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