Guide: Building a 4K HTPC for madVR - Page 137 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4081 of 4173 Old 02-14-2020, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I think a 2060 is a little under powered. Perhaps a 2060 super at min. I have a 1080ti and there are options I've had to turn down. I think on the epson, better upscaling to 4K is not going to be as noticeable as on a true 4K projector. So at least there's that in favor of the cheaper card. I think you can get most the tone mapping features on the 2060. Upscaling you'll have to make compromises, and post processing several compromises. MadVR on 2060 will still can look better than anything else available.
With an RTX 2060 you can enable every tone-mapping option including HSTM and highlight recovery. You can have every trade quality for performance box unchecked. And you can use NGU Medium chroma upscaling, NGU very high image upscaling and SSIM 2D downscaling as well as Error Diffusion dithering and that will put you in the mid to upper 30ms render times. I even also have Enhance Detail enabled in image enhancements.

At least from my point of view the only setting not "maxed out" is the chroma upscaling. But I would challenge anyone to see a difference between medium and very high. Even if I flip between medium and very high chroma on a paused frame with my face up to a native 4K screen I see no difference.
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post #4082 of 4173 Old 02-14-2020, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I think a 2060 is a little under powered. Perhaps a 2060 super at min. I have a 1080ti and there are options I've had to turn down. I think on the epson, better upscaling to 4K is not going to be as noticeable as on a true 4K projector. So at least there's that in favor of the cheaper card. I think you can get most the tone mapping features on the 2060. Upscaling you'll have to make compromises, and post processing several compromises. MadVR on 2060 will still can look better than anything else available.

I have a 1060 and was thinking of upgrading to a 1080ti card. In which areas specifically do you wish the 1080ti could perform better at? Trying to gauge the value in where to upgrade to from my 1060 card ~ bang for the buck. Right now it seems hard to beat the performance a $400 1080ti card would provide vs anything else for the money. Thanks

--------------------------------------------------
Source: HTPC w/madVR, Video: Epson 5040, 150" 16:9, Audio: Onkyo RZ 830 avr, 5.1.4 Atmos setup. 5 speaker Energy C Series: L/R C300's, C C-C100, SR/SL C50's, 4 in-ceiling Micca R-8c. Subwoofers: 1 MiniMarty um18 w/NX3000D. 2 VBSS 18" Subs w/NX3000D.
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post #4083 of 4173 Old 02-14-2020, 07:39 AM
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With an RTX 2060 you can enable every tone-mapping option including HSTM and highlight recovery. You can have every trade quality for performance box unchecked. And you can use NGU Medium chroma upscaling, NGU very high image upscaling and SSIM 2D downscaling as well as Error Diffusion dithering and that will put you in the mid to upper 30ms render times. I even also have Enhance Detail enabled in image enhancements.

At least from my point of view the only setting not "maxed out" is the chroma upscaling. But I would challenge anyone to see a difference between medium and very high. Even if I flip between medium and very high chroma on a paused frame with my face up to a native 4K screen I see no difference.
With that said, do you feel like it's simply a waste to "over-buy" on the gpu? I have a 1060 and was thinking of grabbing a 1080ti card...

Thanks

--------------------------------------------------
Source: HTPC w/madVR, Video: Epson 5040, 150" 16:9, Audio: Onkyo RZ 830 avr, 5.1.4 Atmos setup. 5 speaker Energy C Series: L/R C300's, C C-C100, SR/SL C50's, 4 in-ceiling Micca R-8c. Subwoofers: 1 MiniMarty um18 w/NX3000D. 2 VBSS 18" Subs w/NX3000D.
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post #4084 of 4173 Old 02-14-2020, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidinGA View Post
With that said, do you feel like it's simply a waste to "over-buy" on the gpu? I have a 1060 and was thinking of grabbing a 1080ti card...

Thanks
In my opinion yes. I bought an RTX 2060 for my own system for a reason as it lets me do everything quality wise that I can see.

Other people I'm sure have other opinions.

Even the GTX 1060 in my laptop I can do all the tone-mapping options with no compromise performance for quality options. I just have to take Chroma scaling down to bicubic and dithering down to ordered in order to make frame time.
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post #4085 of 4173 Old 02-14-2020, 07:53 AM
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In my opinion yes. I bought an RTX 2060 for my own system for a reason as it lets me do everything quality wise that I can see.

Other people I'm sure have other opinions.

Even the GTX 1060 in my laptop I can do all the tone-mapping options with no compromise performance for quality options. I just have to take Chroma scaling down to bicubic and dithering down to ordered in order to make frame time.
Thanks.

Does the 20 series offer anything useful for madVR over the 10 series (aside from power usage or simple performance gains)?

It would be interesting to see if anyone has ever really compared the gain/loss in settings taking an entry-level card vs a higher tiered card in real-world visual differences that can be seen/appreciated.

--------------------------------------------------
Source: HTPC w/madVR, Video: Epson 5040, 150" 16:9, Audio: Onkyo RZ 830 avr, 5.1.4 Atmos setup. 5 speaker Energy C Series: L/R C300's, C C-C100, SR/SL C50's, 4 in-ceiling Micca R-8c. Subwoofers: 1 MiniMarty um18 w/NX3000D. 2 VBSS 18" Subs w/NX3000D.
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post #4086 of 4173 Old 02-14-2020, 07:55 AM
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Thanks.

Does the 20 series offer anything useful for madVR over the 10 series (aside from power usage or simple performance gains)?

It would be interesting to see if anyone has ever really compared the gain/loss in settings taking an entry-level card vs a higher tiered card in real-world visual differences that can be seen/appreciated.
There's nothing special about the 20 series over the 10 series yet. The performance per watt is about the same as well.

But in the future we don't know if madshi might use the ray tracing or Tensor cores that the 20 series have.

He has hinted that he would like to and he recommends the 20 series GPUs.
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post #4087 of 4173 Old 02-14-2020, 08:45 AM
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i had said this before but the tensor cores are not the only new types of cores in the 20 series.

the biggest addition is native 16 fp processing you can use it everywhere and on top of this the new int32 cores so the difference is gigantic.
the tensor cores need very specific operations and are very limited in comparison.

newer games leave the 10 series more and more in the dust the 2060 S is already overtaking the 1080
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post #4088 of 4173 Old 02-14-2020, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
With an RTX 2060 you can enable every tone-mapping option including HSTM and highlight recovery. You can have every trade quality for performance box unchecked. And you can use NGU Medium chroma upscaling, NGU very high image upscaling and SSIM 2D downscaling as well as Error Diffusion dithering and that will put you in the mid to upper 30ms render times. I even also have Enhance Detail enabled in image enhancements.



At least from my point of view the only setting not "maxed out" is the chroma upscaling. But I would challenge anyone to see a difference between medium and very high. Even if I flip between medium and very high chroma on a paused frame with my face up to a native 4K screen I see no difference.
Are you running MadVR with a projector? If so, which one? I'm just trying to see how much improvement it will make with my Epson 5050ub.

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post #4089 of 4173 Old 02-14-2020, 09:09 AM
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Are you running MadVR with a projector? If so, which one? I'm just trying to see how much improvement it will make with my Epson 5050ub.

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Yes with my JVC NX5 and it makes a very large improvement.

It would make a big improvement for HDR on your Epson as well.

But you would be better off asking @DavidinGA as he uses madVR with his 5040UB.
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post #4090 of 4173 Old 02-14-2020, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
With an RTX 2060 you can enable every tone-mapping option including HSTM and highlight recovery. You can have every trade quality for performance box unchecked. And you can use NGU Medium chroma upscaling, NGU very high image upscaling and SSIM 2D downscaling as well as Error Diffusion dithering and that will put you in the mid to upper 30ms render times. I even also have Enhance Detail enabled in image enhancements.



At least from my point of view the only setting not "maxed out" is the chroma upscaling. But I would challenge anyone to see a difference between medium and very high. Even if I flip between medium and very high chroma on a paused frame with my face up to a native 4K screen I see no difference.
Are you running MadVR with a projector? If so, which one? I'm just trying to see how much improvement it will make with my Epson 5050ub.

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I use MadVR on a PJ too. JVC RS420 with e-Shift. I pass thru HDR since my PJ processes it well.

I also find ripped blu-rays upscaled to 2160p via MadVR look better than straight 1080p... and does not need a lot of horsepower. I use a Radeon RX580 4GB. MadVR upscaling and enhancement algorithms work really well.

Try it. Take screen captures, or 4K phots of the results. I was a sceptic at first.

-T
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post #4091 of 4173 Old 02-14-2020, 09:27 AM
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i had said this before but the tensor cores are not the only new types of cores in the 20 series.

the biggest addition is native 16 fp processing you can use it everywhere and on top of this the new int32 cores so the difference is gigantic.
the tensor cores need very specific operations and are very limited in comparison.

newer games leave the 10 series more and more in the dust the 2060 S is already overtaking the 1080
But...do those advances correlate into relevant real-world visual benefits for us madVR users?

--------------------------------------------------
Source: HTPC w/madVR, Video: Epson 5040, 150" 16:9, Audio: Onkyo RZ 830 avr, 5.1.4 Atmos setup. 5 speaker Energy C Series: L/R C300's, C C-C100, SR/SL C50's, 4 in-ceiling Micca R-8c. Subwoofers: 1 MiniMarty um18 w/NX3000D. 2 VBSS 18" Subs w/NX3000D.
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post #4092 of 4173 Old 02-14-2020, 09:35 AM
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Are you running MadVR with a projector? If so, which one? I'm just trying to see how much improvement it will make with my Epson 5050ub.

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I have a 5040, and I know the 5050 is slightly better at HDR on its own vs the 5040, but I wouldn't personally even bother watching HDR on my 5040 with a 150" display WITHOUT madVR. It makes that much difference!

HDR on a 150" display is asking a lot for the 5040/5050 to deliver on as the light output is pretty meager at that point (unless you don't mind running on high lamp and listening to that mini jet engine blow and even then the lumens still aren't really there). If you have a smaller display then things may be a bit different for you, as you'll have more light to work with...

--------------------------------------------------
Source: HTPC w/madVR, Video: Epson 5040, 150" 16:9, Audio: Onkyo RZ 830 avr, 5.1.4 Atmos setup. 5 speaker Energy C Series: L/R C300's, C C-C100, SR/SL C50's, 4 in-ceiling Micca R-8c. Subwoofers: 1 MiniMarty um18 w/NX3000D. 2 VBSS 18" Subs w/NX3000D.
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post #4093 of 4173 Old 02-14-2020, 12:11 PM
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I have a 5040, and I know the 5050 is slightly better at HDR on its own vs the 5040, but I wouldn't personally even bother watching HDR on my 5040 with a 150" display WITHOUT madVR. It makes that much difference!



HDR on a 150" display is asking a lot for the 5040/5050 to deliver on as the light output is pretty meager at that point (unless you don't mind running on high lamp and listening to that mini jet engine blow and even then the lumens still aren't really there). If you have a smaller display then things may be a bit different for you, as you'll have more light to work with...
I'm about 125" with a scope film. Do you think the difference is worth spending $800 on a HTPC to run MadVR?

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post #4094 of 4173 Old 02-14-2020, 12:32 PM
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I'm about 125" with a scope film. Do you think the difference is worth spending $800 on a HTPC to run MadVR?

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Throwing your screen size into a calculator vs mine (and accounting for 16:9 vs 2:35 area's), your display is roughly 1.7 times smaller than the screen area I am illuminating. Which means you have significantly more light to work with already than I do.

I'm not certain if the math holds true (someone else can jump in here if I'm wrong), but I have 80 nits on screen in medium lamp and natural mode in my setup and simply multiplying your display setup as 1.7 times brighter would put you at 136 nits on screen in the same mode (should be a bit higher if the 5050 is really brighter out of the box than the 5040). Do you by chance know what the real lumen value you get on screen is? You can get a fairly accurate value if you download a light meter app to your phone and use it for testing.

With that all said, guys are using madVR with OLED tv's for the improved HDR benefits, so the low lumen values of our projectors is only one point of consideration.

I definitely think madVR is worth it in my own experience, and really a must-have feature as I have such a large screen with a low nit value.

--------------------------------------------------
Source: HTPC w/madVR, Video: Epson 5040, 150" 16:9, Audio: Onkyo RZ 830 avr, 5.1.4 Atmos setup. 5 speaker Energy C Series: L/R C300's, C C-C100, SR/SL C50's, 4 in-ceiling Micca R-8c. Subwoofers: 1 MiniMarty um18 w/NX3000D. 2 VBSS 18" Subs w/NX3000D.
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post #4095 of 4173 Old 02-14-2020, 12:36 PM
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I'm about 125" with a scope film. Do you think the difference is worth spending $800 on a HTPC to run MadVR?

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I forgot I would also add that you could build a htpc for less than $800 if you don't mind buying used or have an old pc laying around. Any old pc will usually work after you upgrade the psu (if it doesn't have one powerful enough for the gpu, which most old ones don't have) for $50 and upgrade to a sufficient gpu (nvidia 1060+ is what I would recommend) which you can get for $150 off eBay. So basically any old pc and $200 and your set.
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Source: HTPC w/madVR, Video: Epson 5040, 150" 16:9, Audio: Onkyo RZ 830 avr, 5.1.4 Atmos setup. 5 speaker Energy C Series: L/R C300's, C C-C100, SR/SL C50's, 4 in-ceiling Micca R-8c. Subwoofers: 1 MiniMarty um18 w/NX3000D. 2 VBSS 18" Subs w/NX3000D.
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post #4096 of 4173 Old 02-14-2020, 12:36 PM
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I'm about 125" with a scope film. Do you think the difference is worth spending $800 on a HTPC to run MadVR?

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The benefits of madvr DTM are clearly visible on any screen size.
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post #4097 of 4173 Old 02-14-2020, 02:05 PM
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I forgot I would also add that you could build a htpc for less than $800 if you don't mind buying used or have an old pc laying around. Any old pc will usually work after you upgrade the psu (if it doesn't have one powerful enough for the gpu, which most old ones don't have) for $50 and upgrade to a sufficient gpu (nvidia 1060+ is what I would recommend) which you can get for $150 off eBay. So basically any old pc and $200 and your set.
How's this look for a used PC? I can get it cheap on FB Marketplace.

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post #4098 of 4173 Old 02-14-2020, 02:11 PM
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No Hdd, but fine otherwise.
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post #4099 of 4173 Old 02-14-2020, 02:14 PM
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No Hdd, but fine otherwise.
How will that GPU handle MadVR? Will I be able to use some high settings that will be beneficial?

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post #4100 of 4173 Old 02-14-2020, 02:28 PM
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How will that GPU handle MadVR? Will I be able to use some high settings that will be beneficial?

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DavidinGA and I both have 1060GTX. They are fine for DTM, but I would like to enable higher quality settings.

But you don't know what those settings are or how they look like, so not sure how to describe high settings. You can always upgrade later and test what features you'd like on the current card. It's difficult to advise what card for what settings without having experiencing it.
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post #4101 of 4173 Old 02-14-2020, 02:29 PM
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How's this look for a used PC? I can get it cheap on FB Marketplace.

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That will work great.

That pc has a faster cpu and is newer than what I am using and mine works great for madVR.

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post #4102 of 4173 Old 02-14-2020, 02:39 PM
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That will work great.



That pc has a faster cpu and is newer than what I am using and mine works great for madVR.
I can grab it for $200. Sound fair?

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if it had a ivy bridge CPU maybe but it's not hard to get any pc for 50 and you still have 150 for a used better card.
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post #4104 of 4173 Old 02-15-2020, 05:15 AM
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if it had a ivy bridge CPU maybe but it's not hard to get any pc for 50 and you still have 150 for a used better card.
So you think I should pass on it?

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Guide: Building a 4K HTPC for madVR

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So you think I should pass on it?

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It's pretty old and the GPU is pretty weak. But it would be a start.

I'd prefer to start with something a little more modern. But if your on a super budget it's a system. It'll passthrough HDR. Maybe a little more in madvr.

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post #4106 of 4173 Old 02-15-2020, 10:14 AM
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It's pretty old and the GPU is pretty weak. But it would be a start.

I'd prefer to start with something a little more modern. But if your on a super budget it's a system. It'll passthrough HDR. Maybe a little more in madvr.
Yeah, that's what I was afraid of. I'd hate to buy it, and it not do what I want it to do.

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post #4107 of 4173 Old 02-15-2020, 03:57 PM
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So you think I should pass on it?

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yes i would pass it.

look for used dell PCs without a GPU that have a ivy bridge or better CPU they should be really cheap 40-60.
for the rest get a GPU even a new one should be better then this system.
but if you can'f find PCs for ~50 than this is not absolute terrible. again hard to say depends on the region.

if this is Australia with there high hardware prices is pretty good.
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post #4108 of 4173 Old 02-15-2020, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
yes i would pass it.



look for used dell PCs without a GPU that have a ivy bridge or better CPU they should be really cheap 40-60.

for the rest get a GPU even a new one should be better then this system.

but if you can'f find PCs for ~50 than this is not absolute terrible. again hard to say depends on the region.



if this is Australia with there high hardware prices is pretty good.
Okay, thanks ! Is there any way to tell which Dell models come with the ivy bridge?

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Last edited by biglen; 02-16-2020 at 07:00 AM.
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post #4109 of 4173 Old 02-16-2020, 08:50 PM
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can someone help me decipher the madvr stats graph, or point me in the direction of an explanation? thanks!



Last edited by aeneas01; 02-16-2020 at 10:29 PM.
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post #4110 of 4173 Old 02-17-2020, 02:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Those are brightness histograms used to detect scene changes. The top one is for luminance and the bottom one is for hue (the red, green and blue color channels).

The shape of the histogram shows where most pixels are distributed within the frame: shadows (left), midtones (middle) or highlights (right). That example has most pixels distributed towards the darker part of the histogram.

Cameras use histograms to judge the exposure of the image:

https://digital-photography-school.c...se-histograms/
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