Guide: Building a 4K HTPC for madVR - Page 144 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4291 of 4372 Old 03-10-2020, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
nothing obviously wrong.
thanks, much appreciated!
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post #4292 of 4372 Old 03-10-2020, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by bdht View Post
Is this true? can you cite a source?
Sorry not for Windows 10.

Required for 10-bit output with Windows 7 or 8. fullscreen exclusive mode is not recommended with Windows 10 due to the way Windows 10 handles this mode. In reality, fullscreen exclusive mode is no longer exclusive in Windows 10 and in fact fake, not to mention unreliable with many drivers and media players. Consider it unsupported. It is only useful in Windows 10 if you are unable to get smooth playback with the default windowed mode.

@aeneas01 looks fine.
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post #4293 of 4372 Old 03-10-2020, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
@aeneas01 looks fine.
thanks very much, very helpful!


Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224
fullscreen exclusive mode is not recommended with Windows 10 due to the way Windows 10 handles this mode. In reality, fullscreen exclusive mode is no longer exclusive in Windows 10 and in fact fake...
can you expound on this a bit more? when i see "fullscreen windowed (10bit)" using mpc, is it "fake"? in fact, in reality, is "fullscreen windowed (10bit)" using mpc any different than "fullscreen windowed (8bit)" using potplayer? or does your not apply given both of these scenarios are "windowed"? thanks!
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post #4294 of 4372 Old 03-10-2020, 09:23 PM
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does not apply.
FSE fullscreen exclusive if it would work properly it would be the best or second best depending on what you want but exclusive is not exclusive anymore with win 10 so it's not that useful anymore only some niche use cases are left and that's to microsoft some bugs.

wfs also know as windowed full screen is know to be buggy from time to time too.
there is a major bug right now where madVR is doing a work around in newer versions.
the only render mode that avoid pretty much all bugs is overlay.
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post #4295 of 4372 Old 03-10-2020, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
does not apply.
FSE fullscreen exclusive if it would work properly it would be the best or second best depending on what you want but exclusive is not exclusive anymore with win 10 so it's not that useful anymore only some niche use cases are left and that's to microsoft some bugs.

wfs also know as windowed full screen is know to be buggy from time to time too.
there is a major bug right now where madVR is doing a work around in newer versions.
the only render mode that avoid pretty much all bugs is overlay.
Is FSE still required for 3D in Windows 10?
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post #4296 of 4372 Old 03-10-2020, 09:34 PM
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some user needed it some don't i was able to get 3d running in windowed mode.
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post #4297 of 4372 Old 03-10-2020, 10:42 PM
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so who knows how to read madvr logs? found this post from a couple of years ago:

http://bugs.madshi.net/view.php?id=541

in which madashi helped a potplayer user get 10-bit output, madashi referred to the "render covered by some windows" line in the log and, once fixed, the user was apparently able to get 10-bit output from potplayer + madvr.

here's what my log file looks like, the render lines, the top log shows successful 10-bit using mpc, the bottom log shows unsuccessful 10-bit using potplayer, the same 4k hdr 10-bit file is used:

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post #4298 of 4372 Old 03-10-2020, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
...the only render mode that avoid pretty much all bugs is overlay.
is madvr an overlay render mode?
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post #4299 of 4372 Old 03-11-2020, 12:40 AM
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the bug you linked talks about FSE. at least the answer from madshi is about FSE.
you are tying to use WFS.

the issue is "obviously" something from potplayer with a cryptic name (that's normal) is rendering on top of madVR like the GUI which is not visible most of the time but even then it's still there or at least the surface where it's rendered on.
an image of text you have the text off is not helpful.

madVR has overlay as an option. it can't do 10 bit.
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post #4300 of 4372 Old 03-11-2020, 05:49 AM
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update -

as it turns out potplayer does 10-bit just fine, just like mpc, the problem was i had been using a potplayer skin control option (layered window mode) which enabled an elegant gui interface that layered the player controls over the vid and faded the controls in/out upon hover, once i disabled this potplayer skin option i got 10-bit.

potplayer skin control options:





top image: potplayer skin control option enabled that fades controls in/out upon hover in non-fullscreen windowed mode, but breaks 10-bit in fullscreen windowed mode - bottom image: skin control option disabled causing controls to be visible in non-fullscreen windowed mode, but 10-bit works in fullscreen windowed mode... in both cases vid controls are auto-hidden in fullscreen windowed mode.





left side: potplayer, right side: mpc, stats now seem to be identical:


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post #4301 of 4372 Old 03-17-2020, 02:00 PM
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Windows 7 versus 10

Currently I am using an Apple 4K and Sony UHD player to drive my Epson 5040.

I have an older HTPC and I just installed an AMD RX 580. The motherboard is an Asus M5A97 rev 1 with a 3.6GHZ AMD FX-4100 Quad Core CPU. I have two 4GB RAM memory sticks. The software is Windows 7 Home Premium 64 Bit. I can view YouTube videos in 4K. The drive is an old LG drive that I have used for both BluRay and HDVD - (GGC-H20L)

If I wanted to get this HTPC up to speed for madVR do I need to upgrade to Windows 10? Also, would I need to change anything else hardware/SW wise?

Thanks

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post #4302 of 4372 Old 03-17-2020, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetcobra View Post
Currently I am using an Apple 4K and Sony UHD player to drive my Epson 5040.



I have an older HTPC and I just installed an AMD RX 580. The motherboard is an Asus M5A97 rev 1 with a 3.6GHZ AMD FX-4100 Quad Core CPU. I have two 4GB RAM memory sticks. The software is Windows 7 Home Premium 64 Bit. I can view YouTube videos in 4K. The drive is an old LG drive that I have used for both BluRay and HDVD - (GGC-H20L)



If I wanted to get this HTPC up to speed for madVR do I need to upgrade to Windows 10? Also, would I need to change anything else hardware/SW wise?



Thanks
You definitely need to upgrade that GPU.

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post #4303 of 4372 Old 03-17-2020, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetcobra View Post
Currently I am using an Apple 4K and Sony UHD player to drive my Epson 5040.

I have an older HTPC and I just installed an AMD RX 580. The motherboard is an Asus M5A97 rev 1 with a 3.6GHZ AMD FX-4100 Quad Core CPU. I have two 4GB RAM memory sticks. The software is Windows 7 Home Premium 64 Bit. I can view YouTube videos in 4K. The drive is an old LG drive that I have used for both BluRay and HDVD - (GGC-H20L)

If I wanted to get this HTPC up to speed for madVR do I need to upgrade to Windows 10? Also, would I need to change anything else hardware/SW wise?

Thanks
There's alot of helpful info in the first post on this thread. I run MadVR through Kodi to tone map 4k/HDR on an Epson 5050 and it's awesome, BUT it takes awhile to get everything up and running and it's never quite plug and play like streaming or using a disc.

It might be worth experimenting with the RX580 and Windows 7 to see if you can get it working, and the card might be fast enough to tone map but probably only with all the other enhancements turned off. If you want to burn UHD discs you'll need a UHD friendly drive which is discussed in the first post. Good luck.
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post #4304 of 4372 Old 03-17-2020, 04:11 PM
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Hello everybody,
I have an htpc with i5-9600K, 16gb Ram, Asus Prime Z390-P motherboard, MSI GeForce RTX 2060 Super 8GB Gaming X and Creative Sound Blaster Z. I have also LG 55UK6750 and a home theater. I would like to know if my setup is enough for madvr and 4K upscaling and HDR tone. If someone could give me an advice for which guide to follow to set up my system correctly.
Thank you.
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post #4305 of 4372 Old 03-17-2020, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danonano View Post
There's alot of helpful info in the first post on this thread. I run MadVR through Kodi to tone map 4k/HDR on an Epson 5050 and it's awesome, BUT it takes awhile to get everything up and running and it's never quite plug and play like streaming or using a disc.

It might be worth experimenting with the RX580 and Windows 7 to see if you can get it working, and the card might be fast enough to tone map but probably only with all the other enhancements turned off. If you want to burn UHD discs you'll need a UHD friendly drive which is discussed in the first post. Good luck.
Yes I did find the list of "UHD Friendly drives" after posting so I have found several that are available. The only real purpose of this PC is for video. I have (from before) over 60 HD movies on a mix of 2 x 2TB drives on the HTPC that I ripped using the original AnyDVD, so I am going to study these posts and try W7 before going to W10.

I still need to find a way to pay for the new Redfox AnyDVD, too.

Thanks

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post #4306 of 4372 Old 03-30-2020, 08:44 AM
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Hi folks. Can anyone help. Me desicde what settings to use for madvr? My hardware is :

Ryzen 3600
16gb ram
Nvidia 2060

I use an Epson Tw9400 projector through my av receiver which has a 5.1.4 dolby Atmos setup.the projector is faux 4k and has HDR. I am keen to upscale my old 1080p material and also ensure native 4k stuff looks good.

I will either use kodi dsplayer or mpc.

I've read the guides etc but it still puzzles me. Does anyone know what my setup could deliver with madvr?

Thank you.
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post #4307 of 4372 Old 03-31-2020, 01:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Download the latest madVR beta and check out some of the suggested settings in this thread:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-ho...-settings.html

For upscaling, most prefer NGU Sharp high-very high for image upscaling/image doubling and either NGU Anti-Alias or NGU Sharp medium-high for chroma upscaling.
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post #4308 of 4372 Old 04-02-2020, 05:51 PM
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Jim Peterson of Lumagen is repeatedly posting some very bold claims, statements, and conclusions, criticizing PCs with respect to being used as a video and audio source for home theater.

Here's just some of what he is posting:

"I have to disagree with you on the PC output cards. They are bad for both jitter and electrical noise in my experience. In my experience, they also tend to have other HDMI implementation issues. This is likely in part due to all the circuitry in the PC, rather than just the video output card itself, but I also think they may not be following best "microwave" practices for the HDMI output design. These issues are my observations, and others may disagree. Such performance may be acceptable in a gaming setup but I believe it is not acceptable, or at least not desirable, in a high-end theater environment where the goal is the absolute best in audio and video"

"Given our jitter test results form a PC, that I posted yesterday, you likely want to avoid a PC as a source, if you want the best audio, and video for that matter."

"a high-end PC HDMI output recently measured at 450 pS of jitter at 18 GHz and had over a volt of electrical noise. This jitter and electrical noise is enough that the Tektronix had issues recognizing and locking on to the PC's HDMI signal. The PCs 4.5 times spec jitter and extreme noise IMO will degrade image quality.

At Lumagen we have always strived to have the best video processing, but also to be the reference standard for electrical design. I have not really discussed these electrical requirements much and hope this post helps everyone understand this extremely important aspect of design, and how much it affects audio quality and image quality."


Whilst I am sure that this has absolutely nothing to do with the imminent release of the madVR ENVY I was just wondering what all the fine gentlemen and ladies who operate madVR HTPCs with respect to your Home Theaters have to say about this?

Are you all slumming it with subpar video and audio quality, plagued with persistent HDMI 'problems' due to using a PC within your video and/or audio chain?

Discuss!

Here are his full posts:







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post #4309 of 4372 Old 04-02-2020, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Jim Peterson of Lumagen is repeatedly posting some very bold claims, statements, and conclusions, criticizing PCs with respect to being used as a video and audio source for home theater.

Here's just some of what he is posting:

"I have to disagree with you on the PC output cards. They are bad for both jitter and electrical noise in my experience. In my experience, they also tend to have other HDMI implementation issues. This is likely in part due to all the circuitry in the PC, rather than just the video output card itself, but I also think they may not be following best "microwave" practices for the HDMI output design. These issues are my observations, and others may disagree. Such performance may be acceptable in a gaming setup but I believe it is not acceptable, or at least not desirable, in a high-end theater environment where the goal is the absolute best in audio and video"

"Given our jitter test results form a PC, that I posted yesterday, you likely want to avoid a PC as a source, if you want the best audio, and video for that matter."

"a high-end PC HDMI output recently measured at 450 pS of jitter at 18 GHz and had over a volt of electrical noise. This jitter and electrical noise is enough that the Tektronix had issues recognizing and locking on to the PC's HDMI signal. The PCs 4.5 times spec jitter and extreme noise IMO will degrade image quality.

At Lumagen we have always strived to have the best video processing, but also to be the reference standard for electrical design. I have not really discussed these electrical requirements much and hope this post helps everyone understand this extremely important aspect of design, and how much it affects audio quality and image quality."


Whilst I am sure that this has absolutely nothing to do with the imminent release of the madVR ENVY I was just wondering what all the fine gentlemen and ladies who operate madVR HTPCs with respect to your Home Theaters have to say about this?

Are you all slumming it with subpar video and audio quality, plagued with persistent HDMI 'problems' due to using a PC within your video and/or audio chain?

Discuss!

Here are his full posts:








Noise on PC is an issue. There are two types of noise:

1. Coil whine when GPU is running hot - nothing you can do about it other than try to dampen your case or put it away in another room or cabinet

2. Electrical noise due to grounding of various components that at least for me resulted in a lot of noise from my HDMI out going to my processor and finally the speakers. Grounding all the components correctly fixed this issue.

I have never had problems in locking, or any issues with audio or video quality.

I understand that Lumagen May technically be better but in real world terms I have no issues with my HTPC.


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post #4310 of 4372 Old 04-02-2020, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by tommarra View Post
Noise on PC is an issue. There are two types of noise:

1. Coil whine when GPU is running hot - nothing you can do about it other than try to dampen your case or put it away in another room or cabinet

2. Electrical noise due to grounding of various components that at least for me resulted in a lot of noise from my HDMI out going to my processor and finally the speakers. Grounding all the components correctly fixed this issue.

I have never had problems in locking, or any issues with audio or video quality.

I understand that Lumagen May technically be better but in real world terms I have no issues with my HTPC.
He's not referring to physical audible noise from the PC equipment itself, he's referring to electrical noise and jitter produced by your PC impairing the video and audio performance of your home theater.

So your item 1 is not relevant to this particular discussion. Incidentally, the madVR ENVY is in typical conditions dead quiet operating noise.

Is a Lumagen actually technically better than a high powered HTPC operating madVR or a madVR ENVY? Nope.

The fact of the matter is that historically I personally owned a Lumagen PRO and have been a Lumagen reseller. Then I was fortunate enough to evaluate the new madVR ENVY. In short, I have been so impressed that I sold my Lumagen, and purchased the ENVY, which I have been beta-testing.

Wherein the fact of the matter is that the madVR ENVY significantly outperforms the Lumagen and in more ways than one; plus it improves the video image quality via unique features that the Lumagen does not even possess and almost certainly never will, such as the Bright Highlight Recovery and Shadow Detail Recovery. Another example is the upscaling, wherein there is seriously no contest; the madVR's is massively better.

So if PC components 'significantly impair AV performance', how come in a proper direct A-B comparison the madVR produces significantly superior video image quality and in more ways than one?

Sorry, I am just not buying what he's saying here...

What does everyone else think?
.
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post #4311 of 4372 Old 04-02-2020, 06:52 PM
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Ha, I have been using computers to play my media forever, well over a decade at least.

I have never had a problem with a device like an AVR or display have problems locking onto the signal from my PC's GPU or any problems whatsoever with audio or video quality.

It's not hard to get a digital signal right. When things go wrong it's painfully obvious.
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post #4312 of 4372 Old 04-02-2020, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Jim Peterson of Lumagen is repeatedly posting some very bold claims, statements, and conclusions, criticizing PCs with respect to being used as a video and audio source for home theater.



Here's just some of what he is posting:



"I have to disagree with you on the PC output cards. They are bad for both jitter and electrical noise in my experience. In my experience, they also tend to have other HDMI implementation issues. This is likely in part due to all the circuitry in the PC, rather than just the video output card itself, but I also think they may not be following best "microwave" practices for the HDMI output design. These issues are my observations, and others may disagree. Such performance may be acceptable in a gaming setup but I believe it is not acceptable, or at least not desirable, in a high-end theater environment where the goal is the absolute best in audio and video"



"Given our jitter test results form a PC, that I posted yesterday, you likely want to avoid a PC as a source, if you want the best audio, and video for that matter."



"a high-end PC HDMI output recently measured at 450 pS of jitter at 18 GHz and had over a volt of electrical noise. This jitter and electrical noise is enough that the Tektronix had issues recognizing and locking on to the PC's HDMI signal. The PCs 4.5 times spec jitter and extreme noise IMO will degrade image quality.



At Lumagen we have always strived to have the best video processing, but also to be the reference standard for electrical design. I have not really discussed these electrical requirements much and hope this post helps everyone understand this extremely important aspect of design, and how much it affects audio quality and image quality."




Whilst I am sure that this has absolutely nothing to do with the imminent release of the madVR ENVY I was just wondering what all the fine gentlemen and ladies who operate madVR HTPCs with respect to your Home Theaters have to say about this?



Are you all slumming it with subpar video and audio quality, plagued with persistent HDMI 'problems' due to using a PC within your video and/or audio chain?



Discuss!



Here are his full posts:















Wow, he's grasping at straws...

I find zero issues with my video/audio from my htpc setup.

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Epson 5040, 150" 16:9 1.1gain, Source: HTPC w/madVR, Audio: Onkyo RZ 830 avr, 5.1.4 Atmos setup. 5 speaker Energy C Series: L/R C300's, C C-C100, SR/SL C50's, 4 in-ceiling Micca R-8c. Subwoofers: 1 MiniMarty um18 w/NX3000D. 4 diy Slim VBSS 18" Subs w/NX3000D.
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post #4313 of 4372 Old 04-02-2020, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
He's not referring to physical audible noise from the PC equipment itself, he's referring to electrical noise and jitter produced by your PC impairing the video and audio performance of your home theater.

So your item 1 is not relevant to this particular discussion. Incidentally, the madVR ENVY is in typical conditions dead quiet operating noise.

Is a Lumagen actually technically better than a high powered HTPC operating madVR or a madVR ENVY? Nope.

The fact of the matter is that historically I personally owned a Lumagen PRO and have been a Lumagen reseller. Then I was fortunate enough to evaluate the new madVR ENVY. In short, I have been so impressed that I sold my Lumagen, and purchased the ENVY, which I have been beta-testing.

Wherein the fact of the matter is that the madVR ENVY significantly outperforms the Lumagen and in more ways than one; plus it improves the video image quality via unique features that the Lumagen does not even possess and almost certainly never will, such as the Bright Highlight Recovery and Shadow Detail Recovery. Another example is the upscaling, wherein there is seriously no contest; the madVR's is massively better.

So if PC components 'significantly impair AV performance', how come in a proper direct A-B comparison the madVR produces significantly superior video image quality and in more ways than one?

Sorry, I am just not buying what he's saying here...

What does everyone else think?
.
You're getting pretty rich with the hyperbole Arrow, which is surprising for you. Jim's comments are based on ACTUAL MEASUREMENTS performed with Techtronic analyzers that measure jitter and electrical noise from products. This has been done on quite a few HTPCs that are EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE (cost no object studio based PCs) as well as, let's just say "other" products. The difference in measurements were NOT subtle to say the least.

I can't comment on the quality of images in direct comparisons with a Lumagen and an Envy, or MadVR for that matter. I know of others that I trust that have and have come to different conclusions than you when it comes to tone mapping. And given who they are, I am more inclined to trust them at this point. I was impressed with MadVR's scaling at CEDIA, but the example was obviously crippled by the display they used, so I have held out any judgement and haven't commented on performance because I don't feel that was a fair example (though A LOT of what they showed there looked very promising). As far as fancy names for different approaches to tone mapping, that doesn't interest me. Neither do patents on an approach. Ultimately all that matters is the quality of the tone mapping and based on the testing that is being done on the Lumagen side, other than subjective "enhancements" that may fit someone's subjective taste, I feel that the difference between the two will probably be slight at best if the ultimate intention is to do an on the fly grade to the nit level of the display (what should be the goal of any tone map). Given the people that have seen this first hand with a properly setup Lumagen and the comparisons being done in PROFESSIONAL GRADING SUITES, I'm confident that Lumagen owners are not missing much in that regard.

I think if you want to start a conversation about someone as respected as @jrp , the least you could do is tag him in the post to give him the opportunity to back up his comments. I'd take his insight into video engineering 1000x's over yours given his background and experience.

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post #4314 of 4372 Old 04-02-2020, 11:04 PM
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You're getting pretty rich with the hyperbole Arrow, which is surprising for you. Jim's comments are based on ACTUAL MEASUREMENTS performed with Techtronic analyzers that measure jitter and electrical noise from products. This has been done on quite a few HTPCs that are EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE (cost no object studio based PCs) as well as, let's just say "other" products. The difference in measurements were NOT subtle to say the least.

I can't comment on the quality of images in direct comparisons with a Lumagen and an Envy, or MadVR for that matter. I know of others that I trust that have and have come to different conclusions than you when it comes to tone mapping. And given who they are, I am more inclined to trust them at this point. I was impressed with MadVR's scaling at CEDIA, but the example was obviously crippled by the display they used, so I have held out any judgement and haven't commented on performance because I don't feel that was a fair example (though A LOT of what they showed there looked very promising). As far as fancy names for different approaches to tone mapping, that doesn't interest me. Neither do patents on an approach. Ultimately all that matters is the quality of the tone mapping and based on the testing that is being done on the Lumagen side, other than subjective "enhancements" that may fit someone's subjective taste, I feel that the difference between the two will probably be slight at best if the ultimate intention is to do an on the fly grade to the nit level of the display (what should be the goal of any tone map). Given the people that have seen this first hand with a properly setup Lumagen and the comparisons being done in PROFESSIONAL GRADING SUITES, I'm confident that Lumagen owners are not missing much in that regard.

I think if you want to start a conversation about someone as respected as @jrp , the least you could do is tag him in the post to give him the opportunity to back up his comments. I'd take his insight into video engineering 1000x's over yours given his background and experience.
So lets say that PC HDMI has a ton of jitter. I don't think anyone can actually hear / see this jitter so the fact that it's there is moot. I'm not sure why anyone would indicate that this is 'fine for games' but somehow not fine for anything else. Games have far more detail than videos and if there was any visual artifacts due to something like jitter, it'd be far more noticeable in games than in any video. No device I've ever seen performs as well as my HTPC so if that's what jitter looks like, bring it on. I'll take more please.

Edit: and as far as this concerns ENVY, its use case is between AVR and display. In this case, audio is already handled and stripped away by the AVR so it's only video to worry about.
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post #4315 of 4372 Old 04-02-2020, 11:31 PM
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I can't comment on the quality of images in direct comparisons with a Lumagen and an Envy, or MadVR for that matter
I think this is the key. It all comes down to this comparison.

A direct review of the two devices in the same conditions, with professionally captured photos (same exposure, etc) showing the differences needs to happen.

I'm going to start with MadVR because I already have spare PC's and it'll therefore be free, but long term I'll want a plug and play device that works with any source, and the choice will come down to picture quality.

I do think that looking at electrical noise or jitter is a strange thing to focus on, even if it's accurately & scientifically done. Unless it was accompanied by measurements showing the effect that electrical noise or jitter has on picture quality.

This is particularly true on HTPC devices which vary entirely on the equipment they use, so no one measurement will be repeatable for other users.
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post #4316 of 4372 Old 04-03-2020, 12:40 AM
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So if PC components 'significantly impair AV performance', how come in a proper direct A-B comparison the madVR produces significantly superior video image quality and in more ways than one?



What does everyone else think?
.



Thats the factor above all else...... From my own experience i 100% agree .
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post #4317 of 4372 Old 04-03-2020, 01:34 AM
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while it is not wrong that "noise", "jitter" and other eclectically "issue" can be present in a PC it's not like it will.

if they would affect the image itself you would see that...
is this possible with a very bad PSU/low watt PSU and a "bad" GPU. yes in theory and it will happen in practice very rarely too but that's so rare and more about broken hardware.
if you get an HDMI signal that really degrades image quality you will get very noticeable sparking or a black screen or in short a very bad image or a perfect one.

so if you want to compare these difference you can do it with a bit perfect capture card.
if it get's a degraded image over HDMI it will not magically fix it.

jitter is fixed by buffering everything buffers in the digital world so...

if you want to look up some issues related to PC and any other AV hardware. look up ground loop:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_loop_(electricity)
with digital it shouldn't exist the AVR should filter that (they don't).
with analog audio on PC you are entering the world of doom.
this ranges from the best analog audio quality to the worst with constant noise or load based noise.
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post #4318 of 4372 Old 04-03-2020, 01:53 AM
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while it is not wrong that "noise", "jitter" and other eclectically "issue" can be present in a PC it's not like it will.

if they would affect the image itself you would see that...
is this possible with a very bad PSU/low watt PSU and a "bad" GPU. yes in theory and it will happen in practice very rarely too but that's so rare and more about broken hardware.
if you get an HDMI signal that really degrades image quality you will get very noticeable sparking or a black screen or in short a very bad image or a perfect one.
I learned (i think it was actually in the Lumagen-thread) that the HDMI specification for 4K allows "masking" of bit errors when they occour, so errors are hidden from the viewer. So you won´t see them immediately as with FHD where sparking occours as you have described and which we all know.
If that´s true this could indeed lead to different image quality.
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post #4319 of 4372 Old 04-03-2020, 02:10 AM
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I learned (i think it was actually in the Lumagen-thread) that the HDMI specification for 4K allows "masking" of bit errors when they occour, so errors are hidden from the viewer. So you won´t see them immediately as with FHD where sparking occours as you have described and which we all know.
If that´s true this could indeed lead to different image quality.
This is extremely unlikely and could be verified using pixel patterns and analyzing them carefully. You'd see masked bit errors as noise on something like that.

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post #4320 of 4372 Old 04-03-2020, 02:11 AM
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if you find these changes and link them we can talk about them.

i have not found any changes in that regard:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI

these are not the full HDMI specs.

but how do you mask an error in critical data not the image itself?
and all error test i have ever seen and that not much are from the cable not the GPU itself.
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