Guide: Building a 4K HTPC for madVR - Page 30 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #871 of 3072 Old 04-18-2018, 04:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Here are some benchmarks for the RX Vega 11 (Ryzen iGPU):

Nvidia-GT-1030-vs-AMD-Radeon-RX-Vega-11-Graphics (a little faster than the GT 1030)

Nvidia-GTX-1050-Ti-vs-AMD-RX-Vega-11-Ryzen-iGPU (noticeably slower than the 1050 Ti)

There is no onboard VRAM, so I don't know how it would handle video decoding of 4K UHD HEVC rips. More on that here: AMD Raven Ridge Memory Benchmark & Explanation.

Better options may be on the horizon:

- AMD Radeon RX Vega M GL / 870 (4GB of onboard VRAM - between the 1050 and 1050 Ti in performance)

- AMD Radeon RX Vega M GH (4GB of onboard VRAM - slightly slower than the GTX 1060)

So, for the price, the RX Vega 11 iGPU offers similar performance to the GT 1030. How this would translate to madVR is unknown.
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post #872 of 3072 Old 04-18-2018, 04:24 PM
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I own both a 1050 ti and a 2400g.

1050 ti is much more capable card with madvr.

2400g can do 4k24 and can also do ngu low for 1080p24 to 4k24.

I've been using kodi dsplayer recently and use the builtin player for TV. So that handles 720/1080 60hz to 4k scaling and looks good.

One thing I just noticed is a weird color temp issue where the 2400g output has a little too much red tint. I'm not sure when it started or what caused it. I think it's an isolated issue though.
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post #873 of 3072 Old 04-19-2018, 09:05 AM
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Question....


I see that Nvidia 1060 3GB is about the same price as 1050 Ti 4GB. Is 3GB sufficient for MadVR 4k or do you have to have 4GB?
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post #874 of 3072 Old 04-19-2018, 09:21 AM
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Windows 10 has a lot o services that aren't needed for an HTPC.
Is there any good guide to explain how to configure windows for the best performance on a HTPC?
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post #875 of 3072 Old 04-19-2018, 09:46 AM
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Question....


I see that Nvidia 1060 3GB is about the same price as 1050 Ti 4GB. Is 3GB sufficient for MadVR 4k or do you have to have 4GB?
Yeah, I would like to know too.

I have 3GB on my current card (R9 280)... It's enough to do NGU med chroma, and NGU doubling for 1080p24 to 2160p24. So VRAM is not a bottleneck up until there... I get 21 millisecond render times.

Is there a utility that shows VRAM usage? I did not see anything in madVR... Maybe MSI Afterburner?

-T
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post #876 of 3072 Old 04-19-2018, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dwaleke View Post
One thing I just noticed is a weird color temp issue where the 2400g output has a little too much red tint. I'm not sure when it started or what caused it. I think it's an isolated issue though.
There is another AMD user who is obsessed with the red tint issue. It could be a problem in madVR but seems more likely a driver or display issue (likely a driver issue). Do you have an LG OLED? That was his display. Granted, if you see no issue with the 1050 Ti with the same settings, it is definitely a driver issue.

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post #877 of 3072 Old 04-19-2018, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, I would like to know too.

I have 3GB on my current card (R9 280)... It's enough to do NGU med chroma, and NGU doubling for 1080p24 to 2160p24. So VRAM is not a bottleneck up until there... I get 21 millisecond render times.

Is there a utility that shows VRAM usage? I did not see anything in madVR... Maybe MSI Afterburner?

-T
I use GPU-Z whenever I am attempting to monitor what the GPU is doing.

VRAM usage will go way up when playing 4K UHD compared to 1080p. The upscaling to 4K doesn't impact VRAM a lot. I am guessing 3GB is enough for 4K24p playback, but I think you'd still be safer with 4GB for all usage scenarios.
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post #878 of 3072 Old 04-19-2018, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Onkyoman View Post
There is another AMD user who is obsessed with the red tint issue. It could be an problem in madVR but seems more likely a driver or display issue (likely a driver issue). Do you have an LG OLED? That was his display. Granted, if you see no issue with the 1050 Ti with the same settings, it is definitely a driver issue.
Yes I have an LG oled B7A.

I do not think it's a madvr problem. The Kodi UI shows it too. Definitely a driver/Windows issue. I'm just not sure what triggers it. Definitely after playback. A fresh boot of the computer will display the UI properly.

It's very subtle. I have two devices that output kodi. If I didn't switch back and forth between them it would be easy to miss.
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post #879 of 3072 Old 04-19-2018, 11:10 AM
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it's possible to use more than 3Gb Vram but you would get super high rendertime if you do that.

the real problem is that a R9 280 can't decode HEVC.

the 3GB 1060 is "okish" but it's a completely different card compared to a 1060 6GB.
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post #880 of 3072 Old 04-19-2018, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by gameboy View Post
Question....


I see that Nvidia 1060 3GB is about the same price as 1050 Ti 4GB. Is 3GB sufficient for MadVR 4k or do you have to have 4GB?
I'll say this as I have previously. As was commented about levels of MadVR NGU earlier, I've found with my 1070, you can reach the limits of how high you can set it for my permanent 4K output use pretty easily. The 1080 in my gaming rig on the other hand does quite a lot better. So I know I'd be pretty hesitant to get a 1060 personally. YMMV though of course if your talking usage with a panel vs projector where image size is different and the impact of viewing distance comes into play which may make the processing level less critical.
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post #881 of 3072 Old 04-19-2018, 04:50 PM
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I tried a 1060 for a second machine and decided my 1070 is about a low as I would go for MadVR; even the 1070 has some MadVR limitations. The 1060 handcuffs MadVR further, especially scaling 1080p.
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post #882 of 3072 Old 04-19-2018, 05:17 PM
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I'm new to this so be easy on me just wondering would this PC work for Madvr ?

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/ibuypow...?skuId=6180826

JVC NX5 Panasonic UB820 PC Madvr
Sliver Ticket 120' Cinema white screen
Aggressive 1299 L/C/R/, Volt 10XL x 2 surround, MKII Atmos Modules x 4(Jav's build)
Pioneer Elite SC-LX801 Acurus A125x5
Ported Primate SI 18" HST subs x 2(DIY) V.B.S.S.x 4(MBM)
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post #883 of 3072 Old 04-19-2018, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexgen76 View Post
I'm new to this so be easy on me just wondering would this PC work for Madvr ?

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/ibuypow...?skuId=6180826
Yes it would. But you would have much more fun picking out the parts and building your own PC. And I bet you can do it cheaper than that. 😉

-T
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post #884 of 3072 Old 04-19-2018, 05:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nexgen76 View Post
I'm new to this so be easy on me just wondering would this PC work for Madvr ?

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/ibuypow...?skuId=6180826
Totally overkill for madVR. I assume you are also playing video games. You could spend half that and still be pretty happy with HTPC use. For video game and HTPC use, then it would be fine. I think you might be able to do even better for that price, but I don't know exactly what it would cost. Building your own will always be the cheapest. Or, ordering the parts and having someone else build it for you would also likely be cheaper.
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post #885 of 3072 Old 04-19-2018, 05:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Willie View Post
I tried a 1060 for a second machine and decided my 1070 is about a low as I would go for MadVR; even the 1070 has some MadVR limitations. The 1060 handcuffs MadVR further, especially scaling 1080p.
For most, the 1060 should be more than enough until new algorithms come along. You can waste a lot of performance using NGU very high instead of high, Error Diffusion dithering at 4K 10-bits and chroma upscaling higher than NGU medium at 1080p -> 4K.
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post #886 of 3072 Old 04-19-2018, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie View Post
I tried a 1060 for a second machine and decided my 1070 is about a low as I would go for MadVR; even the 1070 has some MadVR limitations. The 1060 handcuffs MadVR further, especially scaling 1080p.
For most, the 1060 should be more than enough until new algorithms come along. You can waste a lot of performance using NGU very high instead of high, Error Diffusion dithering at 4K 10-bits and chroma upscaling higher than NGU medium at 1080p -> 4K.
On that note, when I was doing 1080p to 2160p upconvert with Blu-ray material, I found it very difficult to tell the difference between super XBR and the ngu algorithms.

With moving video, I was hard-pressed to tell the difference between the two. Super XBR gives me between 10 and 13 millisecond render times. The ngu algorithms give me about twenty one millisecond render times but it makes my fan on the card turn on.

So lately I've been using just the super XBR. Seems like it saves a lot on performance. And it is a little quieter. If I had a passive card and the fan didn't come on I probably wouldn't mind as much.

-T
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post #887 of 3072 Old 04-19-2018, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexgen76 View Post
I'm new to this so be easy on me just wondering would this PC work for Madvr ?

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/ibuypow...?skuId=6180826
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onkyoman View Post
Totally overkill for madVR. I assume you are also playing video games. You could spend half that and still be pretty happy with HTPC use. For video game and HTPC use, then it would be fine. I think you might be able to do even better for that price, but I don't know exactly what it would cost. Building your own will always be the cheapest. Or, ordering the parts and having someone else build it for you would also likely be cheaper.
In this particular case I'd definitely second this thought. It's MadVR for use with a 1080p projector. You can go all out NGU with a lot less, probably even the Nvidia GPU based Gigabyte brix I've got floating around would handle 1080p at pretty high settings .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Onkyoman View Post
For most, the 1060 should be more than enough until new algorithms come along. You can waste a lot of performance using NGU very high instead of high, Error Diffusion dithering at 4K 10-bits and chroma upscaling higher than NGU medium at 1080p -> 4K.
Again I'm going to temper that comment based on the end display device. I know a lot guys here are just doing HTPC with panels which is fine, but if there's a 4K or e-shift projector involved, I'm going to promote the 1070 I use as a good base level. How long before Madshi develops the new algorithm, doesn't look we can hang our hat on said new algorithm just yet from what Madshi's said about the development here a few days ago:

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi
FYI, although I didn't have much time for madVR recently, I did start working on a totally new algorithm (not scaling related) last year, and I've been working on it ever since. I even hired external help for some things I didn't know how to do myself (I'm not a math genius, unfortunately). I'm not completely sure yet if I can manage to make it work. It might end up being much too slow, or too low quality, but I'm hopeful. If it works out as well as I hope, it could be a relatively big thing. But it's going to take several more weeks at least. Sorry, no more information at this point.

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post #888 of 3072 Old 04-19-2018, 08:37 PM - Thread Starter
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On that note, when I was doing 1080p to 2160p upconvert with Blu-ray material, I found it very difficult to tell the difference between super XBR and the ngu algorithms.

With moving video, I was hard-pressed to tell the difference between the two. Super XBR gives me between 10 and 13 millisecond render times. The ngu algorithms give me about twenty one millisecond render times but it makes my fan on the card turn on.

So lately I've been using just the super XBR. Seems like it saves a lot on performance. And it is a little quieter. If I had a passive card and the fan didn't come on I probably wouldn't mind as much.
I used super-xbr for a year and thought it looked pretty good. But it does ring quite a bit compared to NGU. Not everyone will notice, but I did.

Chroma upscaling beyond Bicubic60 + AR or Lanczos3 + AR is hard to notice without the right test image. One of my displays is 4:2:2 and the other is 4:4:4, but it doesn't seem to make that much of a difference.

Considering players like Kodi have Lanczos3 without an anti-ringing filter as its best scaler, madVR doesn't have a ton of competition on the image scaling front. Most players have to cater to low-powered hardware. Anything beyond Lanczos3 + AR in madVR looks good by comparison. And other useful shaders in madVR are often ignored.

You get what you pay for; at least, on the hardware front. A good example is the Nvidia Shield. It is perhaps the best streaming box because it is the only one that will pass HD audio, but it is known for poor image quality. Even if you set the display to RGB Full, it will pass through every 10-bit, 4K source as Y'CbCr 4:2:0. It can't do colorspace conversions from BT.709 to BT.2020. And it appears to use Bilinear scaling, which would explain the "fuzzy" image users complain about. One user in this forum even complained that 4K UHD sources won't play smoothly, adding a soap opera effect. Considering the Shield is $250 or so where I come from, this isn't completely surprising. You get what you pay for...
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post #889 of 3072 Old 04-19-2018, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post
In this particular case I'd definitely second this thought. It's MadVR for use with a 1080p projector. You can go all out NGU with a lot less, probably even the Nvidia GPU based Gigabyte brix I've got floating around would handle 1080p at pretty high settings .



Again I'm going to temper that comment based on the end display device. I know a lot guys here are just doing HTPC with panels which is fine, but if there's a 4K or e-shift projector involved, I'm going to promote the 1070 I use as a good base level. How long before Madshi develops the new algorithm, doesn't look we can hang our hat on said new algorithm just yet from what Madshi's said about the development here a few days ago:

Actually I'm in the process of ordering Sony VPL-285( 4K) projector but this is going to be strictly HTPC no gaming.

JVC NX5 Panasonic UB820 PC Madvr
Sliver Ticket 120' Cinema white screen
Aggressive 1299 L/C/R/, Volt 10XL x 2 surround, MKII Atmos Modules x 4(Jav's build)
Pioneer Elite SC-LX801 Acurus A125x5
Ported Primate SI 18" HST subs x 2(DIY) V.B.S.S.x 4(MBM)
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post #890 of 3072 Old 04-19-2018, 10:03 PM
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Actually I'm in the process of ordering Sony VPL-285( 4K) projector but this is going to be strictly HTPC no gaming.
In that case, you're pretty much on the mark there, you definitely want a decent GPU for the Sony VW285. Incidentally you might want to hold out to CEDIA though as there will most likely be some developments from JVC in the lamp based, full 4K area. I build stuff too, but that kind of price isn't too silly for an off the shelf PC with those specs. If you price something up on PC Parts Picker.com its likely to come up very similar, I just tested a build of something pretty base level and it a couple of hundred more. Things have come a long way with off the shelf system prices it seems. The only drawback I see is a gaming case for an HTPC rig when there's some really nice (and compact) HTPC cases around from the likes of SilverStone, Lian Li, etc. I know I've got an easier time with my equipment with a compact SilverStone case that fits in my equipment rack easily.
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post #891 of 3072 Old 04-19-2018, 10:33 PM
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LG WH16NS40 SVC NS50 showed up today with February 2018 build, so very likely firmware 1.03. I will confirm and look to down or cross flash it this week.
Definitely 1.03 and a royal pain to downgrade to 1.02, but was able to do so after creating a bootable USB drive, formatted with DOSFREE, containing DOSFLASH. I couldn't get DOSFLASH to work at first with repeated "No ATAPI device found", but was good to go after removing all SATA connections and placing LG connection in location 0. I was fortunate that my BIOS allows SATA IDE change. Drive is now showing firmware 1.02 and I confirmed that it can read UHD discs. I followed instructions on this page for using thumbdrive.

Also upgraded to JRiver MC24 now that it's out with BD menu support. Just need to get a video card and deciding between GTX 1060 6GB and 1070 8GB. I plan to use MadVR HDR > SDR tone mapping, so not sure which at this point. These cards are expensive! I'm hoping that a GTX 1060 6GB will be enough once the dust settles.

EDIT: Decided to with a Gigabyte GeForce GTX 1080 Windforce OC GV-N1080WF3OC-8GD for total $585.93 from Jet and another 6% combined rebate from Fidelity CC and eBates. Wasn't much more than a 1070.
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post #892 of 3072 Old 04-19-2018, 10:39 PM
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In that case, you're pretty much on the mark there, you definitely want a decent GPU for the Sony VW285. Incidentally you might want to hold out to CEDIA though as there will most likely be some developments from JVC in the lamp based, full 4K area. I build stuff too, but that kind of price isn't too silly for an off the shelf PC with those specs. If you price something up on PC Parts Picker.com its likely to come up very similar, I just tested a build of something pretty base level and it a couple of hundred more. Things have come a long way with off the shelf system prices it seems. The only drawback I see is a gaming case for an HTPC rig when there's some really nice (and compact) HTPC cases around from the likes of SilverStone, Lian Li, etc. I know I've got an easier time with my equipment with a compact SilverStone case that fits in my equipment rack easily.
After going to CEDIA last year i really don't expect JVC to come anywhere near full 4K after talking to some reps. I expect another Eshift5 with some more bells & whistles. Okay steer me in the right direction what should i start out with if i was going to build HTPC your opinion.

1.CPU

2.Motherboard

3.Graphics Card

Just those can put me in the right direction to help me. I have someone that can build it for me with no problem.

JVC NX5 Panasonic UB820 PC Madvr
Sliver Ticket 120' Cinema white screen
Aggressive 1299 L/C/R/, Volt 10XL x 2 surround, MKII Atmos Modules x 4(Jav's build)
Pioneer Elite SC-LX801 Acurus A125x5
Ported Primate SI 18" HST subs x 2(DIY) V.B.S.S.x 4(MBM)
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post #893 of 3072 Old 04-19-2018, 11:04 PM
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After going to CEDIA last year i really don't expect JVC to come anywhere near full 4K after talking to some reps. I expect another Eshift5 with some more bells & whistles. Okay steer me in the right direction what should i start out with if i was going to build HTPC your opinion.

1.CPU

2.Motherboard

3.Graphics Card

Just those can put me in the right direction to help me. I have someone that can build it for me with no problem.
Ahh don't jump to a conclusion based on reps at last years CEDIA... I speak to senior JVC folk regularly (expecting an update very soon again) and this is fresh info from within the last two months. Worth waiting as honestly the VW285 isn't all that special, especially in lens quality and Native CR, that's coming from a constant Sony owner up for 15 years till selling my VW1100 and VW500 2 years ago.

For your HTPC, CPU and Motherboard aren't going to be super critical. You probably want to go a mid level i7 and a reliable motherboard -which is more going to depend on form factor of case you want, say mini-itx. Given you've got the budget it seems, stick with the 1080 for GPU. Definitely doesn't hurt to have an SSD or even M2 drive for storage. From there if you're getting someone to build it for you, they're likely to be also be able to help guide you with parts choice.
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post #894 of 3072 Old 04-20-2018, 03:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Stick to the guide on page one. If you're going to go crazy with any part, make it the GPU. I would recommend the GTX 1060 6GB at the top end, as I believe you are wasting resources with anything more powerful; especially, if you are already watching high-quality content. There is only so much madVR can do. But others in this thread disagree. An i7 computer is definitely overkill. With an SSD, it is very unnecessary for fast boot times and good OS performance. The CPU will remain mostly idle for HTPC use. An SSD is important, but it doesn't need to be large and expensive. I would economize everywhere but the GPU. You won't notice that much of a difference. You're probably never going to use more than 8GB of RAM, etc., etc. This isn't a video game console/workstation.
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post #895 of 3072 Old 04-20-2018, 03:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Definitely 1.03 and a royal pain to downgrade to 1.02, but was able to do so after creating a bootable USB drive, formatted with DOSFREE, containing DOSFLASH. I couldn't get DOSFLASH to work at first with repeated "No ATAPI device found", but was good to go after removing all SATA connections and placing LG connection in location 0. I was fortunate that my BIOS allows SATA IDE change. Drive is now showing firmware 1.02 and I confirmed that it can read UHD discs.

Also upgraded to JRiver MC24 now that it's out with BD menu support. Just need to get a video card and deciding between GTX 1060 6GB and 1070 8GB. I plan to use MadVR HDR > SDR tone mapping, so not sure which at this point. These cards are expensive! I'm hoping that a GTX 1060 6GB will be enough once the dust settles.

EDIT: Decided to with a Gigabyte GeForce GTX 1080 Windforce OC GV-N1080WF3OC-8GD for total $585.93 from Jet and another 6% combined rebate from Fidelity CC and eBates. Wasn't much more than a 1070.
Tell us your experiences with AnyDVD (HD) vs. DVDFab Passkey. I think you should be able to get a trial version of each one. I am curious which one has better disc support.
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post #896 of 3072 Old 04-20-2018, 03:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onkyoman View Post
Stick to the guide on page one. If you're going to go crazy with any part, make it the GPU. I would recommend the GTX 1060 6GB at the top end, as I believe you are wasting resources with anything more powerful; especially, if you are already watching high-quality content. There is only so much madVR can do. But others in this thread disagree. An i7 computer is definitely overkill. With an SSD, it is very unnecessary for fast boot times and good OS performance. The CPU will remain mostly idle for HTPC use. An SSD is important, but it doesn't need to be large and expensive. I would economize everywhere but the GPU. You won't notice that much of a difference. You're probably never going to use more than 8GB of RAM, etc., etc. This isn't a video game console/workstation.
If you've got the budget why the hell not future proof by being a tight arse. We're hardly talking bank breaking numbers on an i7 vs i5 here for example. He's also declared hes moving to a 4K projector. I'll tell you right now a 1060 won't cop what @Javs recommends for bonafide 4K projector image quality or actual 4K content playback (ie rips), I've had more than enough drama stably playing 4K back on my 1070 rig and had to keep my MadVR settings closer to mid level.
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post #897 of 3072 Old 04-20-2018, 03:55 AM
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I'm using an OPPO 203 at the moment, but i have a 1080p projector (Optoma HD87), so for 4K i have to rely on the (not perfect ATM, OPPO HDR->SDR tone mapping).
I'm considering an HTPC for movie watching only.

I'm torn between using something like an integrated GPU like an AMD 2400g or an AMD 2600X + dedicated "low end" GPU that could handle 4K HDR downscaling to 1080p SDR.
What would be the minimum graphic card / CPU for this scenario (that would offer a future upgrade path for a future 4K projector with HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2).
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post #898 of 3072 Old 04-20-2018, 08:49 AM - Thread Starter
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These links are a start if you want to use an integrated GPU for 4K -> 1080p. You would probably have to use DXVA2 image downscaling for 4K UHD -> 1080p downscaling. I am fairly certain of that based on feedback from a RX 560 user. For SD -> 1080p, you would have more than enough power. You would want a motherboard and case that leaves room for a dedicated GPU in the future.

Link #1

Link #2

I looked at Javs' settings. He does waste some performance by choosing Error Diffusion dithering and NGU very high luma scaling. Some of his other settings choices are also debatable but not a big deal. At 10-bits, there is really no point to using Error Diffusion dithering over Ordered. There is little to no difference at 8-bits and likely no difference at all at 10-bits. Second, using NGU high vs. NGU very high is very small step down in quality compared to NGU high vs. NGU medium, or NGU medium vs. NGU low. Each successive step up has a lower impact on image quality.
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post #899 of 3072 Old 04-20-2018, 09:32 AM
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@Onkyoman , thank you very much for your help.
Unfortunately, the links you posted don't seem to work, both are redirecting to the same #881 post
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post #900 of 3072 Old 04-20-2018, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
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The information starts at post #879 .
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