Guide: Building a 4K HTPC for madVR - Page 40 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1171 of 3052 Old 08-23-2018, 09:41 AM - Thread Starter
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You can pick and choose between the settings in that post (only 1080p and 4K profiles, for example). I promise to clean up the first and last sections of that post after the next build. But those settings are a place to start before choosing your own preferences.
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post #1172 of 3052 Old 08-23-2018, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by clark17 View Post
I got gtx1060 (6gb), so what would be good starting point to make my JVC RS420 shine?



1080p to 4k and best 4k settings (including HDR to SDR)?


Thank you in advance.

I was on the move yesterday so I couldn't go searching for info I wanted to pass on using my phone. I'm a fan of Javs' setting, in particular for the fact he's done a stack of side by side analysis using his JVC projectors. Only thing being is I'm not sure if he's revised anything since he did these @Javs : https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post49913417
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post #1173 of 3052 Old 08-24-2018, 05:12 AM
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Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post
I was on the move yesterday so I couldn't go searching for info I wanted to pass on using my phone. I'm a fan of Javs' setting, in particular for the fact he's done a stack of side by side analysis using his JVC projectors. Only thing being is I'm not sure if he's revised anything since he did these @Javs : https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post49913417
Thank you very much for the info. I'll take a look at it tonight. With all the great help from AVS community (THNAK YOU ALL!) and some excellent guides I'm getting around with madVR . There is a lot of material up there, but it is a little overwhelming and help from you guys goes long way...


So currently I've managed to setup resolution profiles for my likings. I've used RivaTuner (with MSI afterburner) stats OSD to get CPU/GPU/VRAM usage to maximize settings etc. I know RivaTuner might be ideal (works for games) but with my settings I know I'm reaching 4GB of VRAM usage. Maybe I will post some concrete results, once I will stop tweaking / changing the settings.


I have few questions (I hope someone can point me in the right direction )


Question 1: With madVR set to only display in 4k (upscale 1080p and below) how do I handle 1080p 3D? I found with added 1080p24 to the display modes. Some 1080p 2D files instead of being upscale to 4k they stay at 1080p24. Is there a way to force 1080p24 only for 1080p 3D sources and 1080p 2D sources to 4k? I've added profile for 3D using "3D" flags, which seems to work, however this does not control display mode.


Question 2: I'm having hell of time to properly set gamma. My JVC projector currently is set to 2.4 gamma, which I set it in madVR. However depending on the source, the results to my untrained eyes very. As a result since I don't know what I'm doing I disabled yesterday in madVR "calibration - this display is already calibrated" and "color & gamma - enable gamma processing". Is there an easy way to get this done?


Question 3: Once I get MPC-HC going with madVR to my likings. What is recommend to use MPC-HC (madvr) with Kodi or Kodi with DSplayer support?
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post #1174 of 3052 Old 08-24-2018, 08:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by clark17 View Post
Question 1: With madVR set to only display in 4k (upscale 1080p and below) how do I handle 1080p 3D? I found with added 1080p24 to the display modes. Some 1080p 2D files instead of being upscale to 4k they stay at 1080p24. Is there a way to force 1080p24 only for 1080p 3D sources and 1080p 2D sources to 4k? I've added profile for 3D using "3D" flags, which seems to work, however this does not control display mode.
You don't have to put in a separate entry for 3D because madVR will not upscale it.

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Question 2: I'm having hell of time to properly set gamma. My JVC projector currently is set to 2.4 gamma, which I set it in madVR. However depending on the source, the results to my untrained eyes very. As a result since I don't know what I'm doing I disabled yesterday in madVR "calibration - this display is already calibrated" and "color & gamma - enable gamma processing". Is there an easy way to get this done?
The gamma setting is only used if you are using HDR -> SDR because the PQ output must be converted to some gamma. SDR content will always use the same gamma as the source, so it is passthrough. If using HDR -> SDR, you can find a scene with a lot of shadow detail, pause it, and try different gamma values if it looks off.

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Question 3: Once I get MPC-HC going with madVR to my likings. What is recommend to use MPC-HC (madvr) with Kodi or Kodi with DSplayer support?
DSPlayer is a fine option, but there is no technical support and it is unknown if there will be a v18. It is up to you if you want to venture into DSPlayer with the knowledge you may have some trouble and be stuck on v17.6 for an unknown time period. I've been using DSPlayer, but I have been using it for several years.
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post #1175 of 3052 Old 08-24-2018, 08:46 AM
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You don't have to put in a separate entry for 3D because madVR will not upscale it.
Thank you for all your feedback ;P


Great, so I don't need any 3D resolution to be included in display modes.

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The gamma setting is only used if you are using HDR -> SDR because the PQ output must be converted to some gamma. SDR content will always use the same gamma as the source, so it is passthrough. If using HDR -> SDR, you can find a scene with a lot of shadow detail, pause it, and try different gamma values if it looks off.
There are some JVC threads I will look into. I might have to calibrate my projector before going after the player.

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DSPlayer is a fine option, but there is no technical support and it is unknown if there will be a v18. It is up to you if you want to venture into DSPlayer with the knowledge you may have some trouble and be stuck on v17.6 for an unknown time period. I've been using DSPlayer, but I have been using it for several years.
Thank you I will try that.
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post #1176 of 3052 Old 08-24-2018, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clark17 View Post
Question 2: I'm having hell of time to properly set gamma. My JVC projector currently is set to 2.4 gamma, which I set it in madVR. However depending on the source, the results to my untrained eyes very. As a result since I don't know what I'm doing I disabled yesterday in madVR "calibration - this display is already calibrated" and "color & gamma - enable gamma processing". Is there an easy way to get this done?
setting your projector to gamma 2.4 doesn't mean a lot without calibration is is nearly for sure not gamma 2.4 but something else.

if gamma processing is enabled you can change the gamma but there is no "correct" gamma anyway.
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post #1177 of 3052 Old 08-24-2018, 08:33 PM
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setting your projector to gamma 2.4 doesn't mean a lot without calibration is is nearly for sure not gamma 2.4 but something else.

if gamma processing is enabled you can change the gamma but there is no "correct" gamma anyway.

It does with a JVC as they have quite precise gamma steps which are pretty close out of the box so it's better to run 2.4 rather stuff around with other level as a 'base' - whether you believe 2.4 to approximately right or not (it is for JVCs). It's also ultra easy to Autocal an even more precise gamma with a Spyder on them.
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post #1178 of 3052 Old 08-24-2018, 09:16 PM
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if it is "pretty close" on one doesn't mean it is on the other unit.

the first gamma i found from an JVC DLA-RS4500 is 2.1 and that none constant at all this is not even close...

there was an sony Tv that was tested on a bigger site and was fine out of the box and not only the gamma. that doesn't mean if you buy the same TV you will get the same results.

a "correct" gamma is BT1886 these days which is only gamma 2.4 on OLED screen and lower on anything else. and even this is not correct because gamma is quite a complicated thing and depends on other factors too. but what so ever even a wrong gamma doesn't look "strange" as long as it is constant it just makes the all over appearances of image bright or darker.
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post #1179 of 3052 Old 08-24-2018, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
if it is "pretty close" on one doesn't mean it is on the other unit.

the first gamma i found from an JVC DLA-RS4500 is 2.1 and that none constant at all this is not even close...

there was an sony Tv that was tested on a bigger site and was fine out of the box and not only the gamma. that doesn't mean if you buy the same TV you will get the same results.

a "correct" gamma is BT1886 these days which is only gamma 2.4 on OLED screen and lower on anything else. and even this is not correct because gamma is quite a complicated thing and depends on other factors too. but what so ever even a wrong gamma doesn't look "strange" as long as it is constant it just makes the all over appearances of image bright or darker.

Are you trying to say to you tested a 4500?? I have one and I find that statement to be utter bs frankly. Out the box with the 4500 if say set to 2.3, you'd mostly see around a 2.24-26, hardly a shocking deviation... The Z1/4500 would be one of THE most accurate projectors I've ever seen out of the box. I mean close in terms of JVC 4,5,6 series not straying that radically and plus what would your rather do, just use completely wrong gamma setting out of the box on a JVC?!? The good reviewers also back up my thoughts on the 'out the box' gamma settings as well just quietly.



Panels a different story yet again as you state, so I'm not going to muddy the waters there in jumping into that aspect while in the subject of JVC gamma settings as per the OP's question.

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post #1180 of 3052 Old 08-24-2018, 11:30 PM
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you are missing the point here even if i would test one that doesn't help other to get >correct< gamma.

and i don't go and just blindly assume a gamma of 2.4 is correct anyway madVR is not doing this to BTW.

so you come up with they are accurate out of the box and now you need to set it to gamma 2.4 to get correct gamma by blindly assuming it has to be closer to 2.4? seriously what are you talking about maybe our understanding of "correct" are just different.
if you understand a gamma of AVG 2.1 with changing from 2.2 to 2.0x to be accurate them i disagreeing while clearly not garbadge:
https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/...jector-review/

is this a good review blaming the meter for a 6k CR device... to have troubles with reading blacks? clearly not but that's not important here. if you want good results you take a meter and do it your self everything else is just guessing.
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post #1181 of 3052 Old 08-25-2018, 01:55 AM
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I am using my panasonic uhd blu ray with hdr to sdr tonemappping on my jvc rs420 and ik really like the picture with this setting .

I have bult a htpc with kodi dsplayer with madv and a Gtx 1070 and i’m very pleased with the picture ,but i would like te know what are the best recommended setting for now in madv with HDR to SDR tonemapping that can match the Panasonic .

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post #1182 of 3052 Old 08-25-2018, 09:38 AM - Thread Starter
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I haven't seen the Panasonic, so I don't know what it looks like. I would wait for the next build before getting in too far. You could try dumb convert late or complex scientific RGB clip in the meantime. Neither option will be available in the next build. By that point, you won't have much to think about when it comes to settings besides adjusting the brightness and a couple of checkboxes. I think there are still some issues with HDR -> SDR at this point, so hopefully it is ironed out.

Edit: I looked up the Panasonic conversion on YouTube. It doesn't look like it is doing a very good job, at least not at BT.709. It is a bit yellow and oversaturated at times.

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post #1183 of 3052 Old 08-26-2018, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
you are missing the point here even if i would test one that doesn't help other to get >correct< gamma.

and i don't go and just blindly assume a gamma of 2.4 is correct anyway madVR is not doing this to BTW.

so you come up with they are accurate out of the box and now you need to set it to gamma 2.4 to get correct gamma by blindly assuming it has to be closer to 2.4? seriously what are you talking about maybe our understanding of "correct" are just different.
if you understand a gamma of AVG 2.1 with changing from 2.2 to 2.0x to be accurate them i disagreeing while clearly not garbadge:
https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/...jector-review/

is this a good review blaming the meter for a 6k CR device... to have troubles with reading blacks? clearly not but that's not important here. if you want good results you take a meter and do it your self everything else is just guessing.



No one is ever going to frigging assume a spot on result with factory gamma in projector. You miss the point in terms of what baseline gamma someone with a particular model of projector might start with as an out of the box setting, as an uncalibrated gamma preset. I might even quote directly from that review that I'm well aware of since it was written:



Quote:
As expected, the RS4500 measures pretty well out of the box. The gamma is clearly engineered to the 2.2 power function rather than BT.1886 which makes it compatible with more content, but not necessarily the latest material. The differences are extremely minor though.
Honestly Huhn you're back and forths with this sort of stuff are somewhat reminiscent of the same kind of stuff put on Kris Deering (to the point he's not going to post on AVS any more as at today) by the German dude, Christoffe in the next line of 4K projectors anticipation thread .. Like Kris, I too am out (from this HTPC/MadVR thread at least).
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post #1184 of 3052 Old 08-26-2018, 10:56 PM
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I think there are still some issues with HDR -> SDR at this point, so hopefully it is ironed out.
What's exactly wrong with the conversion in MadVR?
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post #1185 of 3052 Old 08-27-2018, 12:58 AM
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What's exactly wrong with the conversion in MadVR?
there is no "correct" way to do it that doesn't mean the correct version is bad there is just space for improvement.

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No one is ever going to frigging assume a spot on result with factory gamma in projector. You miss the point in terms of what baseline gamma someone with a particular model of projector might start with as an out of the box setting, as an uncalibrated gamma preset. I might even quote directly from that review that I'm well aware of since it was written:



Honestly Huhn you're back and forths with this sort of stuff are somewhat reminiscent of the same kind of stuff put on Kris Deering (to the point he's not going to post on AVS any more as at today) by the German dude, Christoffe in the next line of 4K projectors anticipation thread .. Like Kris, I too am out (from this HTPC/MadVR thread at least).
if gamma 2.1(THX) is not farm away from bt1886 than i wonder how big the difference is to 2.4. i wonder who is back and forth here. just run don't bring arguments.
JVC is like all others not perfect.
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post #1186 of 3052 Old 08-27-2018, 02:03 AM
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if gamma 2.1(THX) is not farm away from bt1886 than i wonder how big the difference is to 2.4. i wonder who is back and forth here. just run don't bring arguments.
JVC is like all others not perfect.

Sorry but what in the 'f' are you going on about.... We were talking about a recommended 'out of the box' setting for a current JVC lamp based projectors (4,5,6 series) as per the originally posted question by an owner. The 2.4 example used works for tonemapping(see Zombie10K's post below), how well MadVR handles that vs say a UB820 disc player is a different question of course and for general 4K HDR with MadVR use the 2.3 setting. As for dropping into the unrelated argument about the 4500, what in hell does the statement in the article have to do specifically with a 2.4 level man -I certainly never made any connection there?!? Now I'm done arguing with you here on projector gamma.



https://www.avsforum.com/forum/149-b...l#post56648708


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post #1187 of 3052 Old 08-27-2018, 02:19 AM
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that's a reasonable thing to do he never claimed it is correct. he pretty much said try this and ask me back if you don't like the image.

and you quote there bad understanding of gamma not me. so you just posted it or do you understand gamma as 2.1 "good"?
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post #1188 of 3052 Old 08-27-2018, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
setting your projector to gamma 2.4 doesn't mean a lot without calibration is is nearly for sure not gamma 2.4 but something else.

if gamma processing is enabled you can change the gamma but there is no "correct" gamma anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
if it is "pretty close" on one doesn't mean it is on the other unit.

the first gamma i found from an JVC DLA-RS4500 is 2.1 and that none constant at all this is not even close...

there was an sony Tv that was tested on a bigger site and was fine out of the box and not only the gamma. that doesn't mean if you buy the same TV you will get the same results.

a "correct" gamma is BT1886 these days which is only gamma 2.4 on OLED screen and lower on anything else. and even this is not correct because gamma is quite a complicated thing and depends on other factors too. but what so ever even a wrong gamma doesn't look "strange" as long as it is constant it just makes the all over appearances of image bright or darker.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
you are missing the point here even if i would test one that doesn't help other to get >correct< gamma.

and i don't go and just blindly assume a gamma of 2.4 is correct anyway madVR is not doing this to BTW.

so you come up with they are accurate out of the box and now you need to set it to gamma 2.4 to get correct gamma by blindly assuming it has to be closer to 2.4? seriously what are you talking about maybe our understanding of "correct" are just different.
if you understand a gamma of AVG 2.1 with changing from 2.2 to 2.0x to be accurate them i disagreeing while clearly not garbadge:
https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/...jector-review/

is this a good review blaming the meter for a 6k CR device... to have troubles with reading blacks? clearly not but that's not important here. if you want good results you take a meter and do it your self everything else is just guessing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
there is no "correct" way to do it that doesn't mean the correct version is bad there is just space for improvement.



if gamma 2.1(THX) is not farm away from bt1886 than i wonder how big the difference is to 2.4. i wonder who is back and forth here. just run don't bring arguments.
JVC is like all others not perfect.
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Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
that's a reasonable thing to do he never claimed it is correct. he pretty much said try this and ask me back if you don't like the image.

and you quote there bad understanding of gamma not me. so you just posted it or do you understand gamma as 2.1 "good"?
That 4500 you linked was NOT a new unit, it had gamma droop and is not indicative of a machine in its true factory state. It would have been passed around more than the town cheerleader.

Here was my X9500 literally out of the box in 2.2 gamma mode. 2.21 average



Here was my X9900 out of the box as measured in 2.3 gamma mode. 2.28 average



Here is my X9500 calibrated to 2.3 gamma mode. 2.30 average absolutely phenomenal accuracy.



I have set up a handful of JVC's now, and they are all pretty much bang on out of the box in regards to gamma and even the colour. The do droop though in the first year or so, you need to check on them every 500 hours or so, but that's not a whole lot different from many displays out there.

Calibration is of course useful and important, but to advocate ignoring MadVR's gamma options due to unknowns is pushing it. Its better to tell MadVR the correct gamma intention rather than nothing at all. Point is, if you are set to gamma 2.2 you should tell MadVR to tone map to gamma 2.2 also, or you risk incorrect gamma levels in the content after tone mapping. At least starting off at the right 'number' before checking your actual calibration is better than doing nothing at all.

Also BT.1886 is actually not the way all Bluray discs are mastered - no real easy way to find out which is which either.. If you have a projector or display with deep black levels (JVC) you are better off using something like Gamma 2.4 in a light controlled room for a gamma target since you shouldn't have much of an issue resolving near black shadow detail. Personally I use either 2.3 or 2.4, right now I am using 2.4. Tone mapping should be either 2.2 or 2.4 but that is CRITICAL that MadVR and your display are on the same page there or its not going to work properly, even Madshi is swaying on which setting is preferred at the moment if you are keeping up with the Tone Mapping Thread.
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post #1189 of 3052 Old 08-28-2018, 12:02 AM
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That 4500 you linked was NOT a new unit, it had gamma droop and is not indicative of a machine in its true factory state. It would have been passed around more than the town cheerleader.

Here was my X9500 literally out of the box in 2.2 gamma mode. 2.21 average



Here was my X9900 out of the box as measured in 2.3 gamma mode. 2.28 average



Here is my X9500 calibrated to 2.3 gamma mode. 2.30 average absolutely phenomenal accuracy.



I have set up a handful of JVC's now, and they are all pretty much bang on out of the box in regards to gamma. The do droop though in the first year or so, you need to check on them every 500 hours or so, but that's not a whole lot different from many displays out there.

Calibration is of course useful and important, but to advocate ignoring MadVR's gamma options due to unknowns is pushing it. Its better to tell MadVR the correct gamma intention rather than nothing at all. Point is, if you are set to gamma 2.2 you should tell MadVR to tone map to gamma 2.2 also or your risk incorrect gamma levels after tone mapping. At least starting off at the right 'numbers' before checking your actual calibration is better than doing nothing at all.

Thanks Javs, you pretty much knocked it out of the park there buddy, great info! Glad to have you on thread to intervene before I totally lost my patience with Huhn over this JVC factory gamma argument
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post #1190 of 3052 Old 08-28-2018, 12:32 AM
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That 4500 you linked was NOT a new unit, it had gamma droop and is not indicative of a machine in its true factory state. It would have been passed around more than the town cheerleader.
you are a calibrate for a change what is the first thing you do with a new device before calibration?
and why is there not a single review with your out of the box "perfect" setting i have a problem with the idea that a tested unit is run for 500 H before testing while i'm pretty sure it will be run for quite sometime.
Quote:
I have set up a handful of JVC's now, and they are all pretty much bang on out of the box in regards to gamma. The do droop though in the first year or so, you need to check on them every 500 hours or so, but that's not a whole lot different from many displays out there.
review tell me something else
Quote:
Calibration is of course useful and important, but to advocate ignoring MadVR's gamma options due to unknowns is pushing it. Its better to tell MadVR the correct gamma intention rather than nothing at all. Point is, if you are set to gamma 2.2 you should tell MadVR to tone map to gamma 2.2 also or your risk incorrect gamma levels after tone mapping. At least starting off at the right 'numbers' before checking your actual calibration is better than doing nothing at all.
you are aware what that madVR setting does on it's own?
and did i say to him to not use it i only said it will be something else. and again sooner or later it will be the same on your unit and any other device.
and i noted that there is no correct gamma anyway and it looks like you found gamma 3.0 to be your "correct" because your friend told me 2.4 is >correct< so what is this about?

Quote:
Here was my X9900 out of the box as measured in 2.3 gamma mode. 2.28 average
Quote:
Here was my X9500 literally out of the box in 2.2 gamma mode. 2.21 average
the second image is about gamma ~2.3. so if have to trust you on some old readings? you know for sure are out of the box. because you are opretty much showing me that you can calibrate these absolutely fine.
Quote:
Here is my X9500 calibrated to 2.3 gamma mode. 2.30 average absolutely phenomenal accuracy.
even a max deltaE of 2.4 is not phenomenal in my book this is as expect that you can calibrate these would be sad if this would not be the case.
BTW. starting from this and adding a 3D LUT should give you phenomenal results and "fix" your red too.

here is other review:
https://www.arrow-av.com/news-review...ojector-review
let me guess they are this unit is 300 H old?

btw. you managed to quote a totally unrelated quote in your haste.

@OzHDHT hi where is your definitely correct 2.4 maybe you should next time tell him about the context.
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post #1191 of 3052 Old 08-28-2018, 12:41 AM
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you are a calibrate for a change what is the first thing you do with a new device before calibration?
and why is there not a single review with your out of the box "perfect" setting i have a problem with the idea that a tested unit is run for 500 H before testing while i'm pretty sure it will be run for quite sometime.

review tell me something else


you are aware what that madVR setting does on it's own?
and did i say to him to not use it i only said it will be something else. and again sooner or later it will be the same on your unit and any other device.
and i noted that there is no correct gamma anyway and it looks like you found gamma 3.0 to be your "correct" because your friend told me 2.4 is >correct< so what is this about?



the second image is about gamma ~2.3. so if have to trust you on some old readings? you know for sure are out of the box. because you are opretty much showing me that you can calibrate these absolutely fine.


even a max deltaE of 2.4 is not phenomenal in my book this is as expect that you can calibrate these would be sad if this would not be the case.
BTW. starting from this and adding a 3D LUT should give you phenomenal results and "fix" your red too.

here is other review:
https://www.arrow-av.com/news-review...ojector-review
let me guess they are this unit is 300 H old?

btw. you managed to quote a totally unrelated quote in your haste.

@OzHDHT hi where is your definitely correct 2.4 maybe you should next time tell him about the context.
Urgh your English is so bad you can't seem to construct a proper, clear argument. I'm not really sure what you are trying to say now.

I see you quote one of Nigel's reviews, let's see what he has to say
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post #1192 of 3052 Old 08-28-2018, 01:19 AM
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jays please.

if my english is so bad how do you even know the context about this discussion?
you come in can't read my english but state i said: "Calibration is of course useful and important, but to advocate ignoring MadVR's gamma options due to unknowns is pushing it."
you will not find a this because it is not there.

this is the core quote OzHDHT has a problem with
Quote:
setting your projector to gamma 2.4 doesn't mean a lot without calibration is is nearly for sure not gamma 2.4 but something else.

if gamma processing is enabled you can change the gamma but there is no "correct" gamma anyway.
feel free to agree or disagree.

Quote:
Calibration is of course useful and important, but to advocate ignoring MadVR's gamma options due to unknowns is pushing it. Its better to tell MadVR the correct gamma intention rather than nothing at all. Point is, if you are set to gamma 2.2 you should tell MadVR to tone map to gamma 2.2 also, or you risk incorrect gamma levels in the content after tone mapping. At least starting off at the right 'number' before checking your actual calibration is better than doing nothing at all.
where did i say not use it?
this is a general thing that should not be ignored. if a JVC is better out of the box than other devices has nothing todo with it.
btw. it does nothing to gamma on it's own. this option doesn't change the gamma. so doing nothing at all or this has the same effect.

i'm sure we can look eye to eye jays.
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post #1193 of 3052 Old 08-28-2018, 02:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
you are a calibrate for a change what is the first thing you do with a new device before calibration?
and why is there not a single review with your out of the box "perfect" setting i have a problem with the idea that a tested unit is run for 500 H before testing while i'm pretty sure it will be run for quite sometime.

review tell me something else


you are aware what that madVR setting does on it's own?
and did i say to him to not use it i only said it will be something else. and again sooner or later it will be the same on your unit and any other device.
and i noted that there is no correct gamma anyway and it looks like you found gamma 3.0 to be your "correct" because your friend told me 2.4 is >correct< so what is this about?



the second image is about gamma ~2.3. so if have to trust you on some old readings? you know for sure are out of the box. because you are opretty much showing me that you can calibrate these absolutely fine.


even a max deltaE of 2.4 is not phenomenal in my book this is as expect that you can calibrate these would be sad if this would not be the case.
BTW. starting from this and adding a 3D LUT should give you phenomenal results and "fix" your red too.

here is other review:
https://www.arrow-av.com/news-review...ojector-review
let me guess they are this unit is 300 H old?

btw. you managed to quote a totally unrelated quote in your haste.

@OzHDHT hi where is your definitely correct 2.4 maybe you should next time tell him about the context.
Urgh your English is so bad you can't seem to construct a proper, clear argument. I'm not really sure what you are trying to say now.

I see you quote one of Nigel's reviews, let's see what he has to say [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
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Nail on the head. Struggled across this entire thread with old mate here lol.

I'm sure 'Jays' will agrees here!



Sorry couldn't resist
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post #1194 of 3052 Old 08-28-2018, 03:06 AM
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Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post
It does with a JVC as they have quite precise gamma steps which are pretty close out of the box so it's better to run 2.4 rather stuff around with other level as a 'base' - whether you believe 2.4 to approximately right or not (it is for JVCs). It's also ultra easy to Autocal an even more precise gamma with a Spyder on them.
looks like like your friend javs misses this point. he is using 2.3

but keep going i have my fun with this.
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post #1195 of 3052 Old 08-28-2018, 03:10 AM
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Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post
It does with a JVC as they have quite precise gamma steps which are pretty close out of the box so it's better to run 2.4 rather stuff around with other level as a 'base' - whether you believe 2.4 to approximately right or not (it is for JVCs). It's also ultra easy to Autocal an even more precise gamma with a Spyder on them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
if it is "pretty close" on one doesn't mean it is on the other unit... the first gamma i found from an JVC DLA-RS4500 is 2.1 and that none constant at all this is not even close...
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Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post
Are you trying to say to you tested a 4500?? I have one and I find that statement to be utter bs frankly. Out the box with the 4500 if say set to 2.3, you'd mostly see around a 2.24-26, hardly a shocking deviation...
Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
you are missing the point here even if i would test one that doesn't help other to get >correct< gamma... and i don't go and just blindly assume a gamma of 2.4 is correct anyway madVR is not doing this to BTW... so you come up with they are accurate out of the box and now you need to set it to gamma 2.4 to get correct gamma by blindly assuming it has to be closer to 2.4? seriously what are you talking about maybe our understanding of "correct" are just different. if you understand a gamma of AVG 2.1 with changing from 2.2 to 2.0x to be accurate them i disagreeing while clearly not garbadge: https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/...jector-review/ is this a good review blaming the meter for a 6k CR device... to have troubles with reading blacks? clearly not but that's not important here. if you want good results you take a meter and do it your self everything else is just guessing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post
No one is ever going to frigging assume a spot on result with factory gamma in projector. You miss the point in terms of what baseline gamma someone with a particular model of projector might start with as an out of the box setting, as an uncalibrated gamma preset. I might even quote directly from that review that I'm well aware of since it was written:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
there is no "correct" way to do it that doesn't mean the correct version is bad there is just space for improvement... if gamma 2.1(THX) is not farm away from bt1886 than i wonder how big the difference is to 2.4. i wonder who is back and forth here. just run don't bring arguments. JVC is like all others not perfect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post
Sorry but what in the 'f' are you going on about.... We were talking about a recommended 'out of the box' setting for a current JVC lamp based projectors (4,5,6 series) as per the originally posted question by an owner. The 2.4 example used works for tonemapping(see Zombie10K's post below), how well MadVR handles that vs say a UB820 disc player is a different question of course and for general 4K HDR with MadVR use the 2.3 setting. As for dropping into the unrelated argument about the 4500, what in hell does the statement in the article have to do specifically with a 2.4 level man -I certainly never made any connection there?!? Now I'm done arguing with you here on projector gamma.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
that's a reasonable thing to do he never claimed it is correct. he pretty much said try this and ask me back if you don't like the image... and you quote there bad understanding of gamma not me. so you just posted it or do you understand gamma as 2.1 "good"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
That 4500 you linked was NOT a new unit, it had gamma droop and is not indicative of a machine in its true factory state. It would have been passed around more than the town cheerleader.

Here was my X9500 literally out of the box in 2.2 gamma mode. 2.21 average

Here was my X9900 out of the box as measured in 2.3 gamma mode. 2.28 average

Here is my X9500 calibrated to 2.3 gamma mode. 2.30 average absolutely phenomenal accuracy.

I have set up a handful of JVC's now, and they are all pretty much bang on out of the box in regards to gamma and even the colour. The do droop though in the first year or so, you need to check on them every 500 hours or so, but that's not a whole lot different from many displays out there.

Calibration is of course useful and important, but to advocate ignoring MadVR's gamma options due to unknowns is pushing it. Its better to tell MadVR the correct gamma intention rather than nothing at all. Point is, if you are set to gamma 2.2 you should tell MadVR to tone map to gamma 2.2 also, or you risk incorrect gamma levels in the content after tone mapping. At least starting off at the right 'number' before checking your actual calibration is better than doing nothing at all.

Also BT.1886 is actually not the way all Bluray discs are mastered - no real easy way to find out which is which either.. If you have a projector or display with deep black levels (JVC) you are better off using something like Gamma 2.4 in a light controlled room for a gamma target since you shouldn't have much of an issue resolving near black shadow detail. Personally I use either 2.3 or 2.4, right now I am using 2.4. Tone mapping should be either 2.2 or 2.4 but that is CRITICAL that MadVR and your display are on the same page there or its not going to work properly, even Madshi is swaying on which setting is preferred at the moment if you are keeping up with the Tone Mapping Thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post
Thanks Javs, you pretty much knocked it out of the park there buddy, great info! Glad to have you on thread to intervene before I totally lost my patience with Huhn over this JVC factory gamma argument
Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
you are a calibrate for a change what is the first thing you do with a new device before calibration?
and why is there not a single review with your out of the box "perfect" setting i have a problem with the idea that a tested unit is run for 500 H before testing while i'm pretty sure it will be run for quite sometime... review tell me something else... you are aware what that madVR setting does on it's own? and did i say to him to not use it i only said it will be something else. and again sooner or later it will be the same on your unit and any other device. and i noted that there is no correct gamma anyway and it looks like you found gamma 3.0 to be your "correct" because your friend told me 2.4 is >correct< so what is this about? the second image is about gamma ~2.3. so if have to trust you on some old readings? you know for sure are out of the box. because you are opretty much showing me that you can calibrate these absolutely fine. even a max deltaE of 2.4 is not phenomenal in my book this is as expect that you can calibrate these would be sad if this would not be the case. BTW. starting from this and adding a 3D LUT should give you phenomenal results and "fix" your red too.

here is other review: https://www.arrow-av.com/news-review...ojector-review
let me guess they are this unit is 300 H old?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Urgh your English is so bad you can't seem to construct a proper, clear argument. I'm not really sure what you are trying to say now.

I see you quote one of Nigel's reviews, let's see what he has to say
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Here's my two cents:

Firstly, given the discussion relates to the JVC eShift range of projectors I fail to see what that JVC RS4500/Z1 has to do with anything?

Secondly, @mightyhuhn you have referenced two reviews of the JVC RS4500/Z1.

With respect to the former, this relates to an early pre-production prototype unit that had had considerable usage prior to the review being carried out, because it was the very same unit that had been shipped all over the world and demoed at numerous various AV trade shows. Consequently, the review is pretty meaningless because it does not relate to the production units, regarding which there were also some issues (which I will come onto in a second) and hence is by no means representative of the performance of the projector thereafter, let alone to date. Hence that's a bad data sample and needs to be discounted.

With respect to the latter, you have referenced my initial review of the JVC RS4500/Z1; where it should be noted that that review had in fact been removed from my website many months ago. This did not happen by accident, but because that review is no longer valid. It relates to the first batch of production units with initial firmware, which whilst being a brand new unit, it suffered from a number of technical faults and performance issues meaning it is by no means representative of the performance of the projector thereafter let alone to date. Hence that's also similarly a bad data sample and hence also needs to be discounted.

However, even so, it should be noted that with respect to the out-of-the-box gamma performance, when set to 2.4 gamma the performance was mean 2.45 with a very accurate flat profile with deviation of only +-0.01 from the mean. This is in fact very good for out-of-the-box performance. Sure 0.05 is not as good as the excellent 0.01 - 0.02 typical variation with respect to out-of-the-box performance of JVC's eShift range, but it's much better than as compared with many other projectors. And a flat gamma profile with deviation of only +-0.01 from the mean is pretty damn amazing for out-of-the-box uncalibrated performance in my opinion.

But like I said, that unit had a lot wrong with it which JVC subsequently fixed shortly thereafter. It was/is by no means representative of the performance of the production units subsequent to JVC fixing things in more ways than one. Hence, the review became invalid, which is why it was long-since removed from my website.

As it happens, I will shortly be re-reviewing the JVC RS4500/Z1 using a brand new unit with the latest firmware. This will be done as part of an in depth review and direct comparison versus some other projectors. So if you want a valid data point with respect to out-of-the-box gamma performance with respect to the JVC RS4500/Z1, then be sure to check this out as and when I publish it.

So I fail to see what is the point and/or problem here exactly?

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post #1196 of 3052 Old 08-28-2018, 03:30 AM
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Firstly, given the discussion relates to the JVC eShift range of projectors I fail to see what that JVC RS4500/Z1 has to do with anything?
it has nothing to do with but he has to defend it. what ever reason and you have to set it to gamma 2.4 because that'S the correct setting for JVC. as a reminder not my worlds.

Quote:
With respect to the former, this relates to an early pre-production prototype unit that had had considerable usage prior to the review being carried out, because it was the very same unit that had been shipped all over the world and demoed at numerous various AV trade shows. Consequently, the review is pretty meaningless because it does not relate to the production units, regarding which there were also some issues (which I will come onto in a second) and hence is by no means representative of the performance of the projector thereafter, let alone to date. Hence that's a bad data sample and needs to be discounted.
prove it. that doesn't mean i don't believe you. but does this really matter?
there are quite low number of test out there. and what does this change if it takes time to get inaccurate or is inaccurate out of the box. i never said it is
even if it takes a couple of hours it doesn't change my statement that you simply should not trust in such a setting and that not with this device in mind but will all devices in mind.

Quote:
As it happens, I will shortly be re-reviewing the JVC RS4500/Z1 using a brand new unit with the latest firmware. This will be done as part of an in depth review and direct comparison versus some other projectors. So if you want a valid data point with respect to out-of-the-box gamma performance with respect to the JVC RS4500/Z1, then be sure to check this out as and when I publish it.
even if this unit is perfect out of the box it has nothing todo with the reality it will not stay like this and other reviews show something else. and that to be excepted

but feel free to debunk this as a calibrator: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-ho...l#post56692470
but get more people in here. at least we have some that now know what they are talking about.
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post #1197 of 3052 Old 08-28-2018, 03:38 AM
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looks like like your friend javs misses this point. he is using 2.3

but keep going i have my fun with this.

Nice one, but you're going back in time to use older post information against me there man and essentially just trolling now with such posts.. As you'll see I adapted that specific level I referred to earlier by later qualifying why and when you might use it in case you weren't paying attention earlier i.e. with JVC gamma, you can definitely apply 2.4 for tonemapping as per Zombie10k with the Panasonic UB820. Or as Javs points out use 2.3 etc for good accuracy with MadVR....

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post #1198 of 3052 Old 08-28-2018, 03:51 AM
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WIth MadVR in SDR I dont allow MadVR to modify the gamma whatsoever, I tell MadVR to 'Disable Calibration Controls' for the device, you can use 2.2, 2.3 or 2.4 or BT.1886 gamma for SDR if you really want to, whatever floats your boat! There is no rule. Generally in light treated rooms you would use higher than 2.2. I used to like 2.3 for quite some time, I felt it retained better shadow detail, right now I am using 2.4, but thats entirely my prerogative, it doesnt make other settings wrong.

For HDR tone mapping you must use either 2.2 or 2.4 AND tell MadVR precicely which gamma you are using so it can tailor the tone mapping to that gamma. MadVR doesnt have an option for 2.3. Currently I believe based on the tone mapping thread I linked to earlier, MadVR is interannly basing its actual tone mapping calculations on a gamma of 2.2, that may change though, Madshi seems to be considering making it 2.4 gamma.

Anyway, none of this is up for debate frankly. I came in here to contend up the notion that you seem to think JVCs are not accurate with gamma out of the box by citing one review and went on to claim thats 'how it is', which is why I provided measurements to the contrary of my own units of out of the box modes and how well that can be calibrated.

Thats it, nothing else to it. Anything else you seem to 'think' I am saying is incorrct or a misunderstanding.
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post #1199 of 3052 Old 08-28-2018, 04:02 AM
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so he uses 2.3 for good accuracy with madVR. what has madVR to do with that.
why should 2.3 be more accurate with madVR? back stuff up.

just a a reminder you get a guy in here that said he can't read what i'm saying.
pretends i said something i didn't without been able to read it anyway.
calibrates this device to 2.3 and i don't see a problem in there because i know there isn't a correct gamma anyway.

and you started this with your it has to be 2.4 with JVC. start to meme around and know you notice maybe not...
well who said that there is no correct gamma well...

but get them coming. i stand to what i say.
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post #1200 of 3052 Old 08-28-2018, 04:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
WIth MadVR in SDR I dont allow MadVR to modify the gamma whatsoever, I tell MadVR to 'Disable Calibration Controls' for the device, you can use 2.2, 2.3 or 2.4 or BT.1886 gamma for SDR if you really want to, whatever floats your boat! There is no rule. Generally in light treated rooms you would use higher than 2.2. I used to like 2.3 for quite some time, I felt it retained better shadow detail, right now I am using 2.4, but thats entirely my prerogative, it doesnt make other settings wrong.

For HDR tone mapping you must use either 2.2 or 2.4 AND tell MadVR precicely which gamma you are using so it can tailor the tone mapping to that gamma. MadVR doesnt have an option for 2.3. Currently I believe based on the tone mapping thread I linked to earlier, MadVR is interannly basing its actual tone mapping calculations on a gamma of 2.2, that may change though, Madshi seems to be considering making it 2.4 gamma.

Anyway, none of this is up for debate frankly. I came in here to contend up the notion that you seem to think JVCs are not accurate with gamma out of the box by citing one review and went on to claim thats 'how it is', which is why I provided measurements to the contrary of my own units of out of the box modes and how well that can be calibrated.

Thats it, nothing else to it. Anything else you seem to 'think' I am saying is incorrct or a misunderstanding.
you still put word in my mouth i didn't say.

you post this:
Quote:
Here was my X9900 out of the box as measured in 2.3 gamma mode. 2.28 average
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