Guide: Building a 4K HTPC for madVR - Page 61 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1801 of 4488 Old 01-03-2019, 01:56 PM
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Question

Great gide man, almost everything on one place for htpc 4k lovers.


I have few noob questions couse i am new to 4k no-hdr movie watching.


Do i need to run native 4k resolution on my htpc to get real 4k or i can have 1080 desktop and it will be otputed to 4k when i run pot player?


Reason i am asking is, at the moment i own x4 750k(oc 4.3) proceesor and "picture throwing" oldy 5750 512m radeon with 6gb of rams.


That card can output only 4k 30fps with cru tweaks.


My low spec htpc was nice for madvr 1080p watching till i transfered to 4k and got problems. (1050ti is on the way btw)



Picture looks crisp and nice and i can proces most of the 4k rips with my procesoor which have lower bitrates.


But, if i put 4k native res(30fps or 60fps with lover bits) i can't play any 4k in any player with lowest madvr settings.


Srry for noob questions, have read many threads but could not find answers to my questions and i wanted to ask the experts


ps. Running madvr-lav-pot player with lowest settings in madvr





Cheers
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post #1802 of 4488 Old 01-04-2019, 12:13 AM
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Let me answer to myself if anyone has same question


Ctrl + j solved all my problems, no i'am not running 4k in 4k native(desktop needs to be in 4k also) and no my processor is to weak for 4k in any scenario accept downscaling 4k to 1080p

Last edited by teachsac; 01-04-2019 at 04:55 AM.
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post #1803 of 4488 Old 01-04-2019, 04:58 AM
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what?
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post #1804 of 4488 Old 01-05-2019, 08:01 AM
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While i'm waiting for all the HTPC components, i'm trying to learn how to properly configure it.

I've downloaded the Kodi 18 RC4, and configured it to use MPC-BE as the movie player, so far so good.
I've bought FLIRC, as its seems the simplest remote solution.

Two simple questions:
- When using an external player (MPC-BE), all the FLIRC mapped buttons work correctly (FF, RW, Stop, Play, Home, etc) ?
- I'm looking for a cheap Backlit Remote, will this work with FLIRC: MX3 PRO Backlit (I'm assuming it does, as its an Infrared remote control.

Last edited by neo_2009; 01-05-2019 at 08:07 AM.
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post #1805 of 4488 Old 01-05-2019, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by neo_2009 View Post
While i'm waiting for all the HTPC components, i'm trying to learn how to properly configure it.

I've downloaded the Kodi 18 RC4, and configured it to use MPC-BE as the movie player, so far so good.
I've bought FLIRC, as its seems the simplest remote solution.

Two simple questions:
- When using an external player (MPC-BE), all the FLIRC mapped buttons work correctly (FF, RW, Stop, Play, Home, etc) ?
- I'm looking for a cheap Backlit Remote, will this work with FLIRC: MX3 PRO Backlit (I'm assuming it does, as its an Infrared remote control.
I think those only do IR for certain keys, not all. Find the manual and check...if that particular model does not have a manual, get one for one of the countless other variants of that remote...they are basically all clones of the same remote.
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post #1806 of 4488 Old 01-05-2019, 09:39 AM
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Thanks, i will also post this question in the FLIRC forum, i will report back when i know the answer.
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post #1807 of 4488 Old 01-06-2019, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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I would consider adding a Harmony 650 at some point: https://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Harm.../dp/B004OVECU0.

They aren't that expensive and are among the best universal remotes you can buy. I have used three different models of Harmony remotes, including the 650.
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post #1808 of 4488 Old 01-06-2019, 10:28 AM
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Amazon has 10 device 665 harmony refurbs for even less.

-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought
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post #1809 of 4488 Old 01-06-2019, 11:59 PM
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Question regarding -real- HDR:

There has been reported on several Forums (Link1, Link2), that most of the current Media Player Boxes (including "flagship" Android and LE/CE ones) just doesn't pass the full HDR metadata to the display. It looks like that the data's Maximum Content Light Level and Maximum Frame-Average Light Level are missing in many cases.

Ever anyone tested it, if the complete HDR meta is really passed in the case of AMD and Nvidia cards with MadVR?
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post #1810 of 4488 Old 01-07-2019, 12:14 AM
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why should a Tv even care about the avg brightness? they have to measure it for every frame anyway you can' control the backlight or do ABL without measuring the brightness of each individual frame.
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post #1811 of 4488 Old 01-07-2019, 12:43 AM
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why should a Tv even care about the avg brightness? they have to measure it for every frame anyway you can' control the backlight or do ABL without measuring the brightness of each individual frame.

So you say these values are totally irrelevant regarding the displayed HDR PQ and don't affect the end result shown on the display at all? Then why are they inserted and what purpose supposed they serve anyway? Cause there must be something...
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post #1812 of 4488 Old 01-07-2019, 03:56 AM
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https://x265.readthedocs.io/en/default/cli.html

i can't even find a way to specify the avg nits in x265.

min and max are important for the encoder but AVG... it may calculated in the end.
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post #1813 of 4488 Old 01-07-2019, 04:42 AM
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After this "analysis", what do you think provides the best image quality: the BD version, or the UHD version mapped to BT.709?
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Originally Posted by brazen1 View Post
So I guess your question only concerns those that don't have 4k capability in which case it wouldn't matter per onkyoman observations.
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I think we have been talking about this in the tone mapping thread, and some of us stated that the HDR2SDR converted image has more contrast.
I've created some screenshot comparisons about this, I'll add 2 more titles to it later, but we can definitely see the difference
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post #1814 of 4488 Old 01-07-2019, 06:10 AM - Thread Starter
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So you say these values are totally irrelevant regarding the displayed HDR PQ and don't affect the end result shown on the display at all? Then why are they inserted and what purpose supposed they serve anyway? Cause there must be something...
Some displays use this information to set a static tone curve for the entire presentation. If the MaxCLL is lower or higher than the mastering display peak, the image gets brighter or darker as a result. MaxFALL is used for displays that can't handle fullscreen brightness beyond a certain average peak brightness and would also limit how bright the entire presentation would appear. I don't think many flat panels use MaxFALL and instead enable ABL as needed.

madVR with a Nvidia or AMD GPU has been tested to pass the metadata, but there has been some debate as to whether it is always accurate.
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post #1815 of 4488 Old 01-07-2019, 09:18 PM
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Some displays use this information to set a static tone curve for the entire presentation. If the MaxCLL is lower or higher than the mastering display peak, the image gets brighter or darker as a result. MaxFALL is used for displays that can't handle fullscreen brightness beyond a certain average peak brightness and would also limit how bright the entire presentation would appear. I don't think many flat panels use MaxFALL and instead enable ABL as needed.

madVR with a Nvidia or AMD GPU has been tested to pass the metadata, but there has been some debate as to whether it is always accurate.
What I've unraveled is, that they are important and can affect the overall PQ as well.
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post #1816 of 4488 Old 01-07-2019, 10:49 PM
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Is there any meaningful difference between the AMD 2400G and the 2200G APU's IGP's performance (and reliability) for MadVR-> 4K / HDR playback?

Or can we just say that they're rather quite equal? So is it worth to choose the 2400G over the 2200G by any means only for HTPC purpose?
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post #1817 of 4488 Old 01-08-2019, 12:47 AM
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the 2400g has a notable faster GPU which is still borderline slow for madVR.
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post #1818 of 4488 Old 01-08-2019, 03:19 AM - Thread Starter
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What I've unraveled is, that they are important and can affect the overall PQ as well.
The metadata is static, so it is supposed to set the brightness for the entire presentation. If the peak brightness is reported as high, the display should get a little darker to preserve the contrast of the source. If the peak brightness is reported as low, the display should do less tone mapping and the image would get brighter.

I think most displays rely on the mastering display peak alone, but the MaxCLL is supposed to be used when available. Static metadata isn't really useful when the movie dynamically changes in brightness. madVR is now using dynamic tone mapping and ignoring this metadata, which will help keep the image brighter when a scene is less bright than the source peak by reducing the amount of tone mapping applied.
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post #1819 of 4488 Old 01-08-2019, 03:20 AM - Thread Starter
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I've created some screenshot comparisons about this, I'll add 2 more titles to it later, but we can definitely see the difference
I also prefer the HDR version in those screenshots. I still don't understand why you get a darker image with HDR content. It must be your 2.40 gamma 3D LUT. I mean your darker contrast with low target nits.
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post #1820 of 4488 Old 01-08-2019, 04:36 AM
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I still don't understand why you get a darker image with HDR content. It must be your 2.40 gamma 3D LUT.
That's my best guess as well. What sdr gamma do you use (what's set in your device)?

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post #1821 of 4488 Old 01-08-2019, 05:05 AM - Thread Starter
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The display is 2.20, but madVR is set to 2.40. I get black crush if madVR is set to 2.20. I find the image starts to get too dark not far above 480 target nits, but it isn't too bad at 200-400 nits.

I also have a plasma display that isn't bad at 500 nits, so display technology must play a part.
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post #1822 of 4488 Old 01-08-2019, 05:30 AM
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where did you set it to 2.4?

if the calibration is successful no gamma should crash anything.
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post #1823 of 4488 Old 01-08-2019, 07:24 AM - Thread Starter
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I think it is just how the HDR to SDR conversion works. I actually get a brighter image with a 2.40 gamma rather than a 2.20 gamma. It doesn't seem to matter how the display is calibrated. 2.20 obviously crushes some black on a black clipping pattern, and 2.40 clips perfectly to the edge of Bar 16. It is spot on.
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post #1824 of 4488 Old 01-08-2019, 07:38 AM
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it's not supposed to crash anything. not saying what you see is wrong more that your calibration isn't as good as it should be.

the HDR -> SDR conversation has troubles with process gamma and doesn't give you what you ask from it in many cases. so the point where you set the gamma is important and madVR react totally different depending on these settings.

2.2 is not supposed to crush anything actually 2.2 should "crush" (if miss use this word here) less than 2.4.
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post #1825 of 4488 Old 01-08-2019, 09:15 AM
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I actually get a brighter image with a 2.40 gamma rather than a 2.20 gamma.
Don't you use 3dlut?

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post #1826 of 4488 Old 01-08-2019, 04:10 PM - Thread Starter
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No, I haven't moved to a 3D LUT, but still plan to at some point. I am also doing most of my viewing on a 1080p IPS LED (edge-lit Samsung 7500 series, basically the same panel as the 8,000 with a couple less features), but thought it made more sense to replace the now aging display than buy a good meter and improve the existing calibration with a proper profile. It was calibrated by someone else five years ago and I've only made a few adjustments, so it wasn't a major concern.

I think HDR -> SDR is working well enough. The last few updates seem to have made a significant improvement in image quality. I have been getting proper black clipping with visible shadow detail, so I'm not fighting with gamma curves. I'm not sure why 2.40 was producing the best result on the two displays I've tested (maybe it better matches the original PQ curve), but it does seem to work that way.

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post #1827 of 4488 Old 01-09-2019, 06:59 AM
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but thought it made more sense to replace the now aging display
Honestly, I lost interest in upgrading anything (I mean: everything! ), I just want to use what I have until something truly remarkable come (qled maybe?), since every display technology bears its cross.

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No, I haven't moved to a 3D LUT, but still plan to at some point. I am also doing most of my viewing on a 1080p IPS LED (edge-lit Samsung 7500 series, basically the same panel as the 8,000 with a couple less features)
Don't you have anybody in the nearby who has an i1 Display Pro to borrow it for a week? That would be the easiest solution.

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I think HDR -> SDR is working well enough. The last few updates seem to have made a significant improvement in image quality.
Agreed, now I can watch it The latest release is so far behind.

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I have been getting proper black clipping with visible shadow detail, so I'm not fighting with gamma curves.
Have you tested with this HDR-10 calibration and test patterns set? (There's a Black level setup included.)

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I'm not sure why 2.40 was producing the best result on the two displays I've tested (maybe it better matches the original PQ curve), but it does seem to work that way.
It's interesting that you say this, because that's what I think as well, but Manni has a completely different opinion. I'll ask about this in the doom9 thread.

Btw, I've finished/updated the image comparison as well by adding more titles.

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post #1828 of 4488 Old 01-09-2019, 07:17 AM
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without the actual display response you are not really comparing anything.

with 2.4(and no other gamma setting used) under this screen is calibrated to madVR will change the 2.4 to 2.2 to match the original brightness of the HDR stream or in short it will lower the gamma. so without the sceens gamma it's not really possible to judge this.

BTW. after 5 years you can easily consider a normally used TV uncalibrated.
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post #1829 of 4488 Old 01-09-2019, 07:55 AM
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without the actual display response you are not really comparing anything.
I guess this wasn't meant for me but Onkyoman.

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post #1830 of 4488 Old 01-09-2019, 08:33 AM
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I've just received FLIRC, and tried with a remote i have, and it worked beautifully, except one minor detail i wasn't able to overcome.
I'm using KODI 18 RC4 with MPC-BE as the external player.

When selecting a file to play, MPC-BE opens and plays the file.
After seeing the file, i want to close MPC-BE, so i can return to Kodi UI.
I tried Stop, Return, etc, but although the file play is stopped, MPC-BE still shows, with the Kodi UI in the background.

Which Key needs to be used to close MPC-BE and return to Kodi UI?
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