Guide: Building a 4K HTPC for madVR - Page 63 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1861 of 4509 Old 01-14-2019, 03:31 PM
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there are desktop composition you will not fix.

there are major technical problems with win 10 what they are currently do with FSE is not even funny anymore.
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post #1862 of 4509 Old 01-15-2019, 04:40 AM
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I'm looking for a cheap Blu-ray reader.
Is the ASUS - BC-12D2HT a safe bet?
It is mentioned in deUHD supported drives.
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post #1863 of 4509 Old 01-15-2019, 05:34 AM - Thread Starter
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I think you will have to flash the firmware to make it a friendly drive, unless DeUHD works differently than MakeMKV. Better to wait until official LG UHD drives are supported by MakeMKV some time this year. DeUHD already lists theses drives, so they might already be supported by DeUHD.
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post #1864 of 4509 Old 01-16-2019, 04:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onkyoman View Post
I meant did you try setting the tone mapping curve in madVR to "clipping" and the target nits to 120?
There's no such option (clipping) in recent madvr test builds.

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there are desktop composition you will not fix.
What exactly do you mean about this? (The one that mdvr OSD displays?)

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there are major technical problems with win 10 what they are currently do with FSE is not even funny anymore.
Do you remember since when it was introduced? Since the beginning or from some major update?
I don't use FSE anymore.

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post #1865 of 4509 Old 01-16-2019, 05:50 AM - Thread Starter
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There's no such option (clipping) in recent madvr test builds.
You're right. The option to choose a tone mapping curve is now fixed to BT.2390. Oh well, I would have been curious to see your results. If you can set the brightness of the test patterns to 120 nits, you could still force madVR into clipping.
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post #1866 of 4509 Old 01-16-2019, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Onkyoman View Post
If you can set the brightness of the test patterns to 120 nits, you could still force madVR into clipping.
I could go back to a previous madvr build but I don't see the point of it I'll stick with 2.4 gamma @ 120 target nits and problem solved.

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post #1867 of 4509 Old 01-16-2019, 06:43 AM
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What exactly do you mean about this? (The one that mdvr OSD displays?)
yes depends on the build. the current windows version with the lastest nvidia driver is "fine".
the desktop composition is the rate the desktop works with which can be 24 hz when you are using 60 hz. yes that buggy.
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Do you remember since when it was introduced? Since the beginning or from some major update?
I don't use FSE anymore.
it gets worse and worse with major updates. it's pretty much simulated right know and you clearly don't get an exclusive surface.
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post #1868 of 4509 Old 01-19-2019, 07:46 AM
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Some of the top UHD players (ie Panasonic UB 820/9000) and media players (ie Ziddo X20 Pro, etc) have a separate HDMI out put for sound only with an improved clock and jitter process (over the combined output). Is it possible to build a 4K HTPC for MadVR with this capability? I tried searching the forums on this but really could not find anything that went beyond splitting the signal.
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post #1869 of 4509 Old 01-19-2019, 08:30 AM
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HTPC + Motu 1248 might be an option there, if you have amps versus a receiver.
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post #1870 of 4509 Old 01-19-2019, 09:49 AM
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HTPC + Motu 1248 might be an option there, if you have amps versus a receiver.
But you would loose the capability to use object based formats, as Atmos, DTX-X, etc
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post #1871 of 4509 Old 01-19-2019, 05:59 PM
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It will be playing alot of 3D and UHD rips with Atmos,DTS:X, and a few Auro 3D. I'd like to pair the madVR dynamic tone mapping with a low jitter audio feed if possible.
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post #1872 of 4509 Old 01-20-2019, 07:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Do you have any genuine evidence to imply sound quality is improved? I always have my doubts. I am far more worried about the digital-to-analog conversion of the pre-pro/receiver and the noise floor of the amplifier section, not the source feeding uncompressed digital data. It seems like a lot of headache to achieve no real subjective benefit.
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post #1873 of 4509 Old 01-20-2019, 08:15 AM
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digital audio doesn't have jitter "issues".

if you send digital audio to like an AVR it doesn't matter if the signal has jitter because it needs to be buffered first before anything can be done to it so even if there was jitter in the digital signal it would be gone now.
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post #1874 of 4509 Old 01-20-2019, 11:03 AM
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“In the case of separates, with the transport in a box and the DAC in another it is now clear that it is necessary to supply the DAC with a clock as clean as possible.

It is obvious that the better the clock from the transport, the better the reconstructed clock at the DAC. A very simple and very cheap way to get a better signal from a transport is to re-clock the S/PDIF flow just before it leaves the transport with the cleanest available clock. This allows achieving the best possible results with a very low cost.”


https://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/diginterf1_e.html
https://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/diginterf2_e.html
https://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/jitter1_e.html
https://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/jitter2_e.html
https://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/jitter3_e.html

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post #1875 of 4509 Old 01-20-2019, 11:28 AM
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nice write up ignoring buffering totally and now talking about a new clock generator in your AVR which doesn't match the source clock which is totally normal and does matter at all because it will never match even without jitter...
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post #1876 of 4509 Old 01-20-2019, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
nice write up ignoring buffering totally and now talking about a new clock generator in your AVR which doesn't match the source clock which is totally normal and does matter at all because it will never match even without jitter...
Buffering does not address the issue. I added the full write up
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post #1877 of 4509 Old 01-20-2019, 11:45 AM
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because buffering doesn't remove jitter?

better think about lan cable jitter or wifi. you can lossless transport audio even video over HDMI or spdif.

not matching clocks is not jitter and there are multiply technical ways to work around it too the most obvious is resampling and supersampling is a normal thing for DACs anyway. you can even change the clock speed at the DAC site without re sampling. even with jittering the clock difference is not hard to calculate.
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post #1878 of 4509 Old 01-20-2019, 12:02 PM
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I believe the write up explains need need for a high quality clock right before transport, but I’ll take the word of the top engineers from Panasonic, Pioneer, Dune, Ziddo, Egreat, etc, all have separated the audio on a separate HDMI out with an enhanced clock on their flagship players. This also minimizes transmission jitter for the audio stream (as discussed in write up}.
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post #1879 of 4509 Old 01-20-2019, 12:26 PM
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the write up has this great image of jitter : https://www.tnt-audio.com/gif/jitter001.gif
but what was the HDMI 2 encoding again ? 128/130 bit. so these 130 bit with jitter need to be stored before you can do anything with them so later

we are on a PC here: so wasn't USB slaved to the PC clock leaving us with only PCIe/PCI to even change the audio "clock"?
Quote:
I believe the write up explains need need for a high quality clock right before transport, but I’ll take the word of the top engineers from Panasonic, Pioneer, Dune, Ziddo, Egreat, etc, all have separated the audio on a separate HDMI out with an enhanced clock on their flagship players. This also minimizes transmission jitter for the audio stream (as discussed in write up}.
or that's the reason: http://download.oppodigital.com/UDP2...GLISH_V1.0.pdf
Quote:
 The UDP-203’s Dual HDMI connection mode ensures that you can enjoy the highest possible
video quality and resolution, in addition to high bit rate audio content. Use an HDMI cable to
connect the HDMI OUT (Main) output to your TV, and another HDMI cable to connect the HDMI
OUT (Audio Only) output to your receiver.
This configuration is recommended when you have a 3D or UHD compatible display, but your
receiver is not 3D or UHD compatible.
This configuration will allow you to send the video signal
(3D or UHD in this case) directly to the TV and send the audio signal to the receiver.
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post #1880 of 4509 Old 01-20-2019, 12:32 PM
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As this is a "Building a 4K HTPC" thread, maybe the Jitter/DAC's discussions could be had in a different thread?
This thread might have some interesting information on the subject: DAC blind test: NO audible difference whatsoever
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post #1881 of 4509 Old 01-20-2019, 12:37 PM
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if you want to bit stream audio you can't change anything on a PC.

the current topic is about the signal before it get's to the DAC.
you can kind of compare it to custom resolutions problem and why it even is a thing but not between video and audio but between digital audio interface and DAC clock. very simplified.
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post #1882 of 4509 Old 01-20-2019, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
A nice side benefit for the initial players, Oppo is dead. All the new player writeups focus is on the improved clock and resulting jitter from the separate HDMI enhance audio output. Backward accommodation is a nice two for. I gather this can’t be accommodated on an HTPC, too bad.
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post #1883 of 4509 Old 01-20-2019, 02:56 PM
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I have a BW-16D1HT which is UHD friendly and I've used two different firmware versions (3.01 and 3.02). I'm having about a 1/5 success rate even trying to get UHD discs to read. Is this normal and, if so, do you all have extraordinary patience and multiple drives?
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post #1884 of 4509 Old 01-20-2019, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lasalle View Post
A nice side benefit for the initial players, Oppo is dead. All the new player writeups focus is on the improved clock and resulting jitter from the separate HDMI enhance audio output. Backward accommodation is a nice two for. I gather this can’t be accommodated on an HTPC, too bad.
links? not that i don't believe you they have to come up with something to give user a reason to buy a new one.

BTW. you are aware that double HDMI can backfire "a little" A/V sync is out of control.

and i have a very hard time to believe your link text.

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In facts, while the CD contains the music information, the rate with which this information must be transformed into music is a pre-defined, fixed standard, depending only on the type of support (CD, DVD, SACD) and the track or layer selected. Much alike the turntable, by the way: the reproduction speed, at least in the recent decades, was standardized at 33 1/3 or 45 RPM.

By the way, there is a major difference between turntable and CD speed: while the vinyl record is to be read at a constant rotational speed, the CD must be read at a constant linear speed: that is, while the turntable rotates always at the same RPM, whichever the position of the pickup on the record, the CD player rotates slower when the laser pickup is in the inner areas than when it is in the outer. This means that, in order to supply a perfectly stable and constant data flow, it is necessary to control the speed of the player spinning motor through sophisticated systems. The motor in turn can absorb high current pulses when a sudden speed correction is required, causing a great part of the EMI pollution in a CD player.

In integrated CD players, the master clock is normally placed near the DAC circuits, and for very good reasons, as we'll see. When the transport is designed also for stand-alone operation, however, often it can be instead found directly on the transport board (e.g. Philips CD Pro2 and all the CD ROM readers: in both cases, however, there is also a "service" DAC on board)
there is no way a modern player isn't buffering and read the CD much faster just to be able do error correction.
on DVD and BD the data stream is VBR anyway.

and if jitter would be a problem for audio it would be a problem for video too both is fixed the same way.
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post #1885 of 4509 Old 01-20-2019, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lasalle View Post
A nice side benefit for the initial players, Oppo is dead. All the new player writeups focus is on the improved clock and resulting jitter from the separate HDMI enhance audio output. Backward accommodation is a nice two for. I gather this can’t be accommodated on an HTPC, too bad.
If I had money to burn this snake oiled beauty would be in my system:
https://u p g r a d e c o m p a n y.com/brands/oppo/product/1018-oppo-udp-205d-universal-blu-ray-player-with-signature-upgrade-edition

I got old Pioneer Elite bluray used from user here done by upgrade company. Very pleased with analog audio out which is not hdmi. Better than original I have. Don't really use in my video system. Had the Oppo 205 stock and returned for 203. I did see some video differences from Upgrade company, but as I have 17 hdmi cables in my bizarre Atmos sound bar system I'm staying with Mono Price hdmi. Guilty of borrowing $1200 cable for my sound bar sub and it makes a little difference by even neurotic audiophile standards. I'm glad to see mightyhuhn shoot down the need for splitting hdmi.

One might become suicidal if trying to take a 14 channel home theater system to neurotic two channel standards. Around avsforum most seem to get their sonic movie jollies by running many subwoofers. I'd like to hear a really top notch video system. I've toyed with idea of going for it on the subwoofer front, but with my luck the neighbors would come knocking as the bass moves from their yards to inside their homes.

-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought
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I have read here and on another forum some chatter, that there might be some issues with the later Windows 10 updates concerning HTPC users. Definitely something about some HDR degradation with MadVR as well. Can someone sum up, that what are these issues concretely and also that with what last Win10 update version do they still work properly?

Thanks!

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post #1887 of 4509 Old 01-21-2019, 03:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mount81 View Post
I have read here and on another forum some chatter, that there might be some issues with the later Windows 10 updates concerning HTPC users. Definitely something about some HDR degradation with MadVR as well. Can someone sum up, that what are these issues concretely and also that with what last Win10 update version do they still work properly?
I don't know much about HDR (due to lack of device) but this is my opinion apart from that, the rest of the guys can help you with HDR.
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post #1888 of 4509 Old 01-21-2019, 06:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mount81 View Post
I have read here and on another forum some chatter, that there might be some issues with the later Windows 10 updates concerning HTPC users. Definitely something about some HDR degradation with MadVR as well. Can someone sum up, that what are these issues concretely and also that with what last Win10 update version do they still work properly?

Thanks!
Some of the recent driver versions have failed to get the metadata to the display, but I haven't heard of any issues with regards to image quality. I think it is still identical to a standalone 4K Blu-ray player.
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post #1889 of 4509 Old 01-21-2019, 06:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c.kingsley View Post
I have a BW-16D1HT which is UHD friendly and I've used two different firmware versions (3.01 and 3.02). I'm having about a 1/5 success rate even trying to get UHD discs to read. Is this normal and, if so, do you all have extraordinary patience and multiple drives?
No, it is not normal unless you have a very unusual collection of UHD discs that are not already in the MakeMKV database. Do you have the latest MakeMKV hashed key file installed? Or the correct flashed firmware for that drive, such as the one linked towards the end of the first post?

Have you been able to rip any discs? It could be the drive itself, but best to rule out other things first.
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post #1890 of 4509 Old 01-21-2019, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Onkyoman View Post
No, it is not normal unless you have a very unusual collection of UHD discs that are not already in the MakeMKV database. Do you have the latest MakeMKV hashed key file installed? Or the correct flashed firmware for that drive, such as the one linked towards the end of the first post?

Have you been able to rip any discs? It could be the drive itself, but best to rule out other things first.
My UHD collection is fairly standard. I do have the latest hashed key file and every movie I've tried is in there. I tried two different firmware revisions on the drive. It takes up to 10 minutes for the disc to populate in MakeMKV. I was able to rip one film and I gave up on the rest. I hope this is abnormal because I'm going to return this drive...
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