Why can't I watch channels with the DRM flag set? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 20 Old 04-30-2017, 11:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Why can't I watch channels with the DRM flag set?

Under Windows 7 with Windows Media Center:
* Is able to automatically set the TV channel video type to the correct value (MPEG-2 or MPEG-4)
* Plays all subscribed to TV channels (even if DRM flag set to copy once or copy never)
* Only enforces the DRM flags (i.e. copy once) for recorded content

Under Windows 10 with NextPVR and WinTV:
* By default sets the TV channel video type to MPEG-2. That works fine for the SD channels and the 8 HD channels that are MPEG-2. I have to manually set each of the 95 HD channels that have type MPEG-4 to the correct value or the channel is not viewable.
* Plays only subscribed to TV channels that have the "copy freely" flag set. The 23 channels have the "copy once" flag are blocked

I thought the purpose of the DRM flags was to control recorded HD content. Why under Windows 10 are they used to control content that can be watched also?

Was Windows Media Center so much better because Microsoft spent a lot of money on it? If so was it that they calculated that the investment was no longer worth it considering that most people seemed to have gone to video streaming.
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post #2 of 20 Old 04-30-2017, 11:20 AM
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Going to move this to the HTPC section.

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post #3 of 20 Old 04-30-2017, 11:52 AM
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Windows Media Center was the only solution that uses PlayReady which allows access to the flagged channels.

SiliconDust is working on a solution, but it isn't exactly ready.

Your solution is to go back to WMC, get a TiVo, or rent the cable box.

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post #4 of 20 Old 04-30-2017, 12:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterEd51 View Post
Under Windows 7 with Windows Media Center:
* Is able to automatically set the TV channel video type to the correct value (MPEG-2 or MPEG-4)
* Plays all subscribed to TV channels (even if DRM flag set to copy once or copy never)
* Only enforces the DRM flags (i.e. copy once) for recorded content

Under Windows 10 with NextPVR and WinTV:
* By default sets the TV channel video type to MPEG-2. That works fine for the SD channels and the 8 HD channels that are MPEG-2. I have to manually set each of the 95 HD channels that have type MPEG-4 to the correct value or the channel is not viewable.
* Plays only subscribed to TV channels that have the "copy freely" flag set. The 23 channels have the "copy once" flag are blocked

I thought the purpose of the DRM flags was to control recorded HD content. Why under Windows 10 are they used to control content that can be watched also?

Was Windows Media Center so much better because Microsoft spent a lot of money on it? If so was it that they calculated that the investment was no longer worth it considering that most people seemed to have gone to video streaming.
The DRM flags are for viewing and recording.

"Copy freely" means it can be viewed or recorded on any device.
"Copy Once" means it can be viewed or recorded on any device meeting the DRM requirements. The recordings can only be viewed on the device that recorded them.
"Copy Never" means that a program can be viewed on any device meeting the DRM requirements, but cannot be recorded.

In this context, WMC Extenders effectively are treated as part of the host WMC machine. Copy Once and Copy Never streams are encrypted prior to transmission, so without the necessary DRM components they cannot be viewed or recorded. It isn't a matter of the software enforcing DRM, it is a matter of the software lacking the necessary DRM components to decrypt the encrypted streams.

Local networks are almost always "copy freely"
Pay Per View movies and events are almost always "copy never"
Other cable channels will typically be "copy freely" or "copy once" depending on the cable provider.

None of this changed with Windows 10. What changed was the decision to (not) include WMC (and the necessary DRM components) in Windows 10. It was the only DVR to support DRM. Since the Windows 10 release SiliconDust has started a Kickstarter campaign which is still in development. I believe they have a Windows 10 client that is in beta that has support for DRM, but no official releases yet.

There has also been a project that allows you to install WMC on Win10, but it us also unofficial and could be disabled via Windows Update at the whim of Microsoft.
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post #5 of 20 Old 04-30-2017, 06:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajhieb View Post
The DRM flags are for viewing and recording.

"Copy freely" means it can be viewed or recorded on any device.
"Copy Once" means it can be viewed or recorded on any device meeting the DRM requirements. The recordings can only be viewed on the device that recorded them.
"Copy Never" means that a program can be viewed on any device meeting the DRM requirements, but cannot be recorded.

In this context, WMC Extenders effectively are treated as part of the host WMC machine. Copy Once and Copy Never streams are encrypted prior to transmission, so without the necessary DRM components they cannot be viewed or recorded. It isn't a matter of the software enforcing DRM, it is a matter of the software lacking the necessary DRM components to decrypt the encrypted streams.

Local networks are almost always "copy freely"
Pay Per View movies and events are almost always "copy never"
Other cable channels will typically be "copy freely" or "copy once" depending on the cable provider.

None of this changed with Windows 10. What changed was the decision to (not) include WMC (and the necessary DRM components) in Windows 10. It was the only DVR to support DRM. Since the Windows 10 release SiliconDust has started a Kickstarter campaign which is still in development. I believe they have a Windows 10 client that is in beta that has support for DRM, but no official releases yet.

There has also been a project that allows you to install WMC on Win10, but it us also unofficial and could be disabled via Windows Update at the whim of Microsoft.
I already tried to install WMC in Windows 10 per the online directions. It did not work so I tried to uninstall it. This only made matters worse because the whole process somehow messed up Windows 10. A number of unrelated programs that were working started crashing or would not run at all. I ended up reinstalling Windows 10.

I just checked on the the SiliconDust Kickstarter campaign. SiliconDust right now has a service called HDHomeRun DVR. You can pay now for early access to the beta release software. After there is a release candidate there will be a yearly subscription charge.

Thanks for your response. I am now seriously considering buying the SiliconDust HDHomeRun PRIME and subscribing to their HDHomeRun DVR service.

Last edited by MisterEd51; 04-30-2017 at 08:09 PM.
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post #6 of 20 Old 05-02-2017, 10:27 PM
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Windows 10 app in the Windows store is free and plays DRM with Creator's update.
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post #7 of 20 Old 05-05-2017, 06:33 AM
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this is hypothetical -

could you run a W10 machine with a W7 virtual machine, and then use a 360 as your WMC gateway?

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post #8 of 20 Old 05-08-2017, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterEd51 View Post
I already tried to install WMC in Windows 10 per the online directions. It did not work so I tried to uninstall it. This only made matters worse because the whole process somehow messed up Windows 10. A number of unrelated programs that were working started crashing or would not run at all. I ended up reinstalling Windows 10.

I just checked on the the SiliconDust Kickstarter campaign. SiliconDust right now has a service called HDHomeRun DVR. You can pay now for early access to the beta release software. After there is a release candidate there will be a yearly subscription charge.

Thanks for your response. I am now seriously considering buying the SiliconDust HDHomeRun PRIME and subscribing to their HDHomeRun DVR service.
The WMC in W10 hack from thegreenbutton was never really stable. W10 updates break it, you have to have W10 pro and set an admin rule policy to get it to ignore updates. It also never consistently handled DRM

HDHomeRun DVR doesn't fully handle DRM yet either, but for *some* already works in their W10 app (for viewing). Lots of people here waiting for their DRM solution to roll out or at least be fully defined as to what it will and will not be able to do. There is an old app that you can no longer officially obtain from Silicondust on Android that would let you view DRM channels, but you have to get it from one of those android app download sites these days

If you try the Silicondust W10 app and it doesn't work for you I would honestly suggest going back to W7 for the time being or the TiVo route. Waiting on the grass to grow is never fun. That being said, the Homerun Prime is the absolute best, most rock-solid tuner you'll find IMO. I have never regretted picking one of those up
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post #9 of 20 Old 05-08-2017, 05:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Xpresso View Post
Windows 10 app in the Windows store is free and plays DRM with Creator's update.
Thanks I'll check that out.
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post #10 of 20 Old 05-08-2017, 05:37 PM - Thread Starter
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this is hypothetical -

could you run a W10 machine with a W7 virtual machine, and then use a 360 as your WMC gateway?
I'm familiar with VMware on Windows 7 because I ran VMs all the time on Windows 7. I even have Windows 10 as one of the VMs there. To run Windows 7 as a VM on Windows 7 might work OK but I would have to come up with a free Windows 7 key to do that. even that were to work it seems like to much work to be worth it. I have never owned a XB or PS. I play all my games on my 3 PCs.

I still have my Windows 7 machine. I moved it across the room. I could start using the TV tuner on it again. It seems that I have gotten WinTV to work good enough for now on Windows 10 that I may stick with it for now.
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post #11 of 20 Old 05-08-2017, 05:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dark_Slayer View Post
The WMC in W10 hack from thegreenbutton was never really stable. W10 updates break it, you have to have W10 pro and set an admin rule policy to get it to ignore updates. It also never consistently handled DRM

HDHomeRun DVR doesn't fully handle DRM yet either, but for *some* already works in their W10 app (for viewing). Lots of people here waiting for their DRM solution to roll out or at least be fully defined as to what it will and will not be able to do. There is an old app that you can no longer officially obtain from Silicondust on Android that would let you view DRM channels, but you have to get it from one of those android app download sites these days

If you try the Silicondust W10 app and it doesn't work for you I would honestly suggest going back to W7 for the time being or the TiVo route. Waiting on the grass to grow is never fun. That being said, the Homerun Prime is the absolute best, most rock-solid tuner you'll find IMO. I have never regretted picking one of those up
I was disappointed that Silicondust still does not have DRM support yet. It seems that they started 2 years ago on that project. I would have gone with their service if they had it finished. Right now I don't see the urgency to get it since it may not work any better than what I already have. Also to commit to it would require me to buy the HomeRun Prime to use with it.

My Hauppauge WinTV-DCR-2650 was actually made by SiliconDust. In fact I have to install the hdhomerun driver in order for NextPVR to recognize it. Still if I run HomeRun software it does not recognize theWinTV-DCR-2650 when it scans for a tuner.
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post #12 of 20 Old 06-17-2017, 06:53 PM
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Hi, I know this thread is a little old, but I'm hoping some or all of you are still following.

I currently have a 6 month old DIRECTV contract on hold until September, and for the past several months I've been using PS Vue + OTA via HDHomerun Connect and Extend.

I just saw an offer for Spectrum cable, internet and phone for the same price as what I'm currently paying for just internet and PS Vue, and the offer includes paying up to $500 for ETF's. Since my ETF will be $360, I thought I should take a look at the offer.

Of course the offer isn't perfect, as it requires paying for each box, which I don't want to do. I can rent a cable card for just $2.00, and I was hoping I could use that in the HDHomerun Prime and watch via the Luve Channels app on my Nvidia Shield and Channels app on my Apple TV's (newest version).

I've read several threads (including this one) and it seems like it may not work but I don't know why. Prime was made to work with cable cards, so I don't understand how or why it doesn't work. Is it just the DVR function that doesn't work with DRM channels, or can those channels not even be watched?

If they can't be watched, I'll just stick with my current setup and pay the ETF myself.

I'd appreciate any insight.

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post #13 of 20 Old 06-17-2017, 07:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Sweetmeat View Post
Hi, I know this thread is a little old, but I'm hoping some or all of you are still following.

I currently have a 6 month old DIRECTV contract on hold until September, and for the past several months I've been using PS Vue + OTA via HDHomerun Connect and Extend.

I just saw an offer for Spectrum cable, internet and phone for the same price as what I'm currently paying for just internet and PS Vue, and the offer includes paying up to $500 for ETF's. Since my ETF will be $360, I thought I should take a look at the offer.

Of course the offer isn't perfect, as it requires paying for each box, which I don't want to do. I can rent a cable card for just $2.00, and I was hoping I could use that in the HDHomerun Prime and watch via the Luve Channels app on my Nvidia Shield and Channels app on my Apple TV's (newest version).

I've read several threads (including this one) and it seems like it may not work but I don't know why. Prime was made to work with cable cards, so I don't understand how or why it doesn't work. Is it just the DVR function that doesn't work with DRM channels, or can those channels not even be watched?

If they can't be watched, I'll just stick with my current setup and pay the ETF myself.

I'd appreciate any insight.
The original Shield (2015) worked fine, but they upgraded the OS to Android Nougat and the new version ships with Nougat and Nougat changes some APIs that SiliconDust was using for DRM content. Eventually the new Grey app is supposed to be compatible with Nougat, but as of right now it isn't.

I'm using basically the setup you're proposing with a cable card from Spectrum, and HDHomerun Prime. I have a Shield but since I upgraded it to Nougat I've mothballed it for the time being and switched to Odroid C2s running Android Marshmallow with the SD Green App for live TV and SPMC for local content.
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post #14 of 20 Old 06-17-2017, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ajhieb View Post
The original Shield (2015) worked fine, but they upgraded the OS to Android Nougat and the new version ships with Nougat and Nougat changes some APIs that SiliconDust was using for DRM content. Eventually the new Grey app is supposed to be compatible with Nougat, but as of right now it isn't.



I'm using basically the setup you're proposing with a cable card from Spectrum, and HDHomerun Prime. I have a Shield but since I upgraded it to Nougat I've mothballed it for the time being and switched to Odroid C2s running Android Marshmallow with the SD Green App for live TV and SPMC for local content.

Thank you for your response. So just to confirm, it is not currently possible to just watch DRM channels using the HDHomerun Prime with the 2017 Shield Pro because of API changes in Nougat?

Not being able to DVR wouldn't bother me if that's all it was, but losing access to channels would be a deal breaker.


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post #15 of 20 Old 06-17-2017, 07:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Sweetmeat View Post
Thank you for your response. So just to confirm, it is not currently possible to just watch DRM channels using the HDHomerun Prime with the 2017 Shield Pro because of API changes in Nougat?

Not being able to DVR wouldn't bother me if that's all it was, but losing access to channels would be a deal breaker.


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Correct. As of now DMR channels are unavailable in Nougat for Live TV as well as DVR.
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post #16 of 20 Old 06-17-2017, 07:28 PM
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Correct. As of now DMR channels are unavailable in Nougat for Live TV as well as DVR.


Well that sucks! Will it work on the newest apple tv's? If so, maybe I'll get a Spectrum box and use it in the family room where my Shield is, and rent a cable card for use in the Prime for my other rooms with Apple TV's.


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post #17 of 20 Old 06-17-2017, 07:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Sweetmeat View Post
Well that sucks! Will it work on the newest apple tv's? If so, maybe I'll get a Spectrum box and use it in the family room where my Shield is, and rent a cable card for use in the Prime for my other rooms with Apple TV's.


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I don't have any experience with the AppleTV, so I can't answer that one for sure, but there isn't a DRM option on there to my knowledge. AFAIK SD only has DRM working on Windows 10/XB1 and Android (prior to Nougat, also requires the Green App which isn't on the Play Store anymore)
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post #18 of 20 Old 06-17-2017, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajhieb View Post
I don't have any experience with the AppleTV, so I can't answer that one for sure, but there isn't a DRM option on there to my knowledge. AFAIK SD only has DRM working on Windows 10/XB1 and Android (prior to Nougat, also requires the Green App which isn't on the Play Store anymore)


Ok, thank you for your responses! You saved me a lot of time and frustration.

Unless someone can confirm DRM channels via Prime works on AppleTV, I'll just keep my existing service and pay my ETF.


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post #19 of 20 Old 06-18-2017, 07:13 AM
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Apple famously refused working with CableLabs. Hence you will never see AppleTV to support CableCard tuner DRM.

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post #20 of 20 Old 06-18-2017, 07:19 AM
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Apple famously refused working with CableLabs. Hence you will never see AppleTV to support CableCard tuner DRM.

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Yeah, I unfortunately found the following on SD's website.


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