MadVR HTPC build for JVC NX7 projector - a build! - Page 8 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #211 of 236 Old 06-30-2019, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Onkyoman View Post
If you already have it figured out, it is probably isn't worth investigating any further.

You should be able to experiment with what you see on the projector panel by simply opening up a media player window on any computer and applying different masking.

If I crop 135 pixels from the top and bottom of the window and 8 pixels from the left and right, I get a cropped rectangle like this with black pixels on the sides:



I don't use this feature at all, but I used these settings to get the fixed rectangle:





If you aren't getting the same cropped image on the projector, then the wider 4096 x 2160p resolution is causing the image to be wider than it appears in the media player window or the zoom big black bars option isn't working at all to crop the window. If the crop is working correctly, you should be able to compensate by simply moving the sides in further until the overshoot disappears.

Well it was a 3840x2160 projector.

But what I assume is going on in your picture is that when you bring the left and right masking in, your vertical is also shrinking too. This is not what we needed to happen. We needed to bring in the sides while leaving the vertical filling the screen.

There should be absolutely no scaling going on with the masking. All that needs to happen is for some black to cover a part of the image. This is the only way to make it work as the aspect ratio of the image needs to be changed to be narrower to fit the 2.37:1 screen with an image from an anamorphic lens that was stretching the image a bit too wide.

To me it seems you cannot get madVR to alter the aspect like that, it always wants to zoom the image keeping the same aspect.

MadVR zooming the image like that also had the downside of breaking 1:1 pixel mapping and also seemed to vastly increase the rendering time when using NGU which were both not good when again, all that needed to happen is to cover some of the image with black.
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post #212 of 236 Old 06-30-2019, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by AndreNewman View Post
Yes very easily but there’s no way(I can find) to select a mask memory without digging in the menus. So it’s impossible to automate it from a Harmony remote.

A hdfury vertex has directly controlled masking but can only mask top or bottom.

Madvr should do it, I’ve created profiles that change the hdr nits, select the lens memory but the masking eludes me, clearly I’m doing something wrong.
Don’t you just set up lens memory and toggle between them? There are 1 button codes for all 10 lens memories. I can make you pronto codes. Will that let you enter them into harmony? Also madvr can send masking codes to your projector based on criteria via ip control but the harmony route is probably easiest. Are codes for lens memory 1 and 2 sufficient? And is pronto format what you need?
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post #213 of 236 Old 06-30-2019, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
Well it was a 3840x2160 projector.

But what I assume is going on in your picture is that when you bring the left and right masking in, your vertical is also shrinking too. This is not what we needed to happen. We needed to bring in the sides while leaving the vertical filling the screen.

There should be absolutely no scaling going on with the masking. All that needs to happen is for some black to cover a part of the image. This is the only way to make it work as the aspect ratio of the image needs to be changed to be narrower to fit the 2.37:1 screen with an image from an anamorphic lens that was stretching the image a bit too wide.

To me it seems you cannot get madVR to alter the aspect like that, it always wants to zoom the image keeping the same aspect.

MadVR zooming the image like that also had the downside of breaking 1:1 pixel mapping and also seemed to vastly increase the rendering time when using NGU which were both not good when again, all that needed to happen is to cover some of the image with black.
You want to set it up just the same way as I did. You need to bring the top and bottom down to create a scope aspect ratio. As you can see in that screenshot, the aspect ratio is not changed at all. It isn't normally necessary to crop the sides, but you can do that if the image still overshoots.

The zoom function will crop any aspect ratio that doesn't fit the rectangle. That rectangle is 2.37:1, so there would be minor cropping for 2.40:1 and 2.35:1 movies. I think Skyfall used as the example is 2.40:1.

The idea is to frame your screen and zoom the image to crop any excess. The extra scaling could be managed with a profile for 4K UHD content.

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post #214 of 236 Old 06-30-2019, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Onkyoman View Post
You want to set it up just the same way as I did. You need to bring the top and bottom down to create a scope aspect ratio. As you can see in that screenshot, the aspect ratio is not changed at all. It isn't normally necessary to crop the sides, but you can do that if the image still overshoots.

The zoom function will crop any aspect ratio that doesn't fit the rectangle. That rectangle is 2.37:1, so there would be minor cropping for 2.40:1 and 2.35:1 movies. I think Skyfall used as the example is 2.40:1.

The idea is to frame your screen and zoom the image to crop any excess. The extra scaling could be managed with a profile for 4K UHD content.
I don't know what to say at this point. You are fundamentally not understanding the issue and why your settings don't work in the case we needed. I assume it's my fault for not being able to articulate it with words.

I've tried all the settings you have shown and they simply do not produce the result that is needed.

I feel like I have exhausted every setting that I have had someone tell me to try and I have exhausted all the possible ways I am able to describe the problem, so I don't know what else to do at this point.

The image cannot be 2.37:1. The screen is 2.37:1, but the lens is stretching it wider than that, so to compensate, the image needs to be narrower.

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post #215 of 236 Old 06-30-2019, 06:47 PM
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I guess I don't understand what you're trying to do. You can avoid changing the aspect ratio by cropping. I don't know why the picture won't fit.

The image becomes narrower from a vertical stretch, which can be applied by madVR or the projector.
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post #216 of 236 Old 06-30-2019, 06:52 PM
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I guess I should mention that masking the top and bottom wouldn't be necessary if a vertical stretch was applied in madVR. But the zoom function is needed to prevent the image from rescaling to a smaller size if the sides are cropped.
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post #217 of 236 Old 06-30-2019, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Onkyoman View Post
I guess I don't understand what you're trying to do. You can avoid changing the aspect ratio by cropping. I don't know why the picture won't fit.

The image becomes narrower from a vertical stretch, which can be applied by madVR or the projector.
All that we needed to do was mask in the sides a little by covering up some pixels with black (so you don't see the image spilling over the frame), without moving the top and bottom edge off of the frame edge where it was already physically aligned via the projector's zoom.

Bringing the sides in via madVR only ever had 2 outcomes. Either it would also bring in the top and bottom because it was down-scaling the entire image, or madVR would zoom the image after crop to have the sides move out to the edge of the projector's panels again.

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post #218 of 236 Old 06-30-2019, 07:01 PM
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I don't know what went wrong. I would have covered the top and bottom black bars with masking in a 2.37:1 ratio and see where that got you in terms of width.
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post #219 of 236 Old 06-30-2019, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Onkyoman View Post
I don't know what went wrong. I would have covered the top and bottom black bars with masking in a 2.37:1 ratio and see where that got you in terms of width.
Doing that to start get us an image that spills off the sides of the screen by several inches.

But maybe I am not sure what you mean by covered with black bars. Covered by what?
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post #220 of 236 Old 06-30-2019, 07:13 PM
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The masking combined with zoom the big black bars away just covers the black bars in CinemaScope movies. The result looks the same as the screenshot I posted.

In terms of pixel dimensions, every consumer video source will have the same width (1920 or 3840) and only the height is scaled to fit any aspect ratio wider than 16:9. The top and bottom cropping is supposed to give you the correct pixel height within the projector panel for widescreen sources with some minor cropping.
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post #221 of 236 Old 06-30-2019, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Onkyoman View Post
The masking combined with zoom the big black bars away just covers the black bars in CinemaScope movies. The result looks the same as the screenshot I posted.

In terms of pixel dimensions, every consumer video source will have the same width (1920 or 3840) and only the height is scaled to fit any aspect ratio wider than 16:9. The top and bottom cropping is supposed to give you the correct pixel height within the projector panel for widescreen sources with some minor cropping.
The problem is when 2.40:1 video is put through his horizontal stretch anamorphic lens (even though it's being vertically stretched by the projector first to fill the whole 16:9 panel), it becomes even wider, like 2.5:1 or so, because it's an imperfect lens.

If we just zoom the projector's lens to line up the image with sides with the screen sides, then there are black bars on top and bottom of even a 2.4:1 screen and that is not wanted. Instead we zoom the projector so that the top and bottom of the image line up with the top and bottom of the screen. This leaves a large spill over the left and right sides of the screen frame.

So all that we needed to do was to cover up the sides of the video image with some black pixels so that the spill over is not seen on the wall. A JVC or Sony or Epson projector normally allow this with the masking feature built into the projector, but he just got a BenQ Laser projector, and it did not have this masking feature.

None of the crop, mask, zoom, black border, etc in madVR would achieve this simple result of just covering up some of the sides of the video with black to narrow the video's aspect ratio.

Anything that involves madVR "zooming" or scaling the picture was already wrong as that breaks the 1:1 pixel mapping of the video to the projector as well as introduces extra rendering time that is unwanted and unneeded. Masking has nothing to do with zooming or scaling, it's simply a cover, that's what the term mask means in the first place.

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post #222 of 236 Old 06-30-2019, 08:17 PM
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The problem is when 2.40:1 video is put through his horizontal stretch anamorphic lens (even though it's being vertically stretched by the projector first to fill the whole 16:9 panel), it becomes even wider, like 2.5:1 or so, because it's an imperfect lens.
What lens is this?
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post #223 of 236 Old 06-30-2019, 08:19 PM
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What lens is this?
Panamorph UH480
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post #224 of 236 Old 06-30-2019, 08:26 PM
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Panamorph UH480
Enough said. Time to upgrade that old relic....
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post #225 of 236 Old 06-30-2019, 09:43 PM
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The problem is when 2.40:1 video is put through his horizontal stretch anamorphic lens (even though it's being vertically stretched by the projector first to fill the whole 16:9 panel), it becomes even wider, like 2.5:1 or so, because it's an imperfect lens.

If we just zoom the projector's lens to line up the image with sides with the screen sides, then there are black bars on top and bottom of even a 2.4:1 screen and that is not wanted. Instead we zoom the projector so that the top and bottom of the image line up with the top and bottom of the screen. This leaves a large spill over the left and right sides of the screen frame.

So all that we needed to do was to cover up the sides of the video image with some black pixels so that the spill over is not seen on the wall. A JVC or Sony or Epson projector normally allow this with the masking feature built into the projector, but he just got a BenQ Laser projector, and it did not have this masking feature.

None of the crop, mask, zoom, black border, etc in madVR would achieve this simple result of just covering up some of the sides of the video with black to narrow the video's aspect ratio.

Anything that involves madVR "zooming" or scaling the picture was already wrong as that breaks the 1:1 pixel mapping of the video to the projector as well as introduces extra rendering time that is unwanted and unneeded. Masking has nothing to do with zooming or scaling, it's simply a cover, that's what the term mask means in the first place.
I just tried it now for you. If you check zoom away small black bars, the scaling on the sides of the image goes away (it is cropped). I guess that's how you are supposed to deal with scaling on the sides of the image.

The same vertical stretch is applied to all sources, so you should be able to crop parts of the image and still get the correct aspect ratio (1:1 pixel mapping) if the image isn't stretched and is only cropped.

You might not want to bother. But I think the combo of big black bars and small black bars in zoom control will do the crop you want.
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post #226 of 236 Old 06-30-2019, 10:26 PM
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I just tried it now for you. If you check zoom away small black bars, the scaling on the sides of the image goes away (it is cropped). I guess that's how you are supposed to deal with scaling on the sides of the image.

The same vertical stretch is applied to all sources, so you should be able to crop parts of the image and still get the correct aspect ratio (1:1 pixel mapping) if the image isn't stretched and is only cropped.

You might not want to bother. But I think the combo of big black bars and small black bars in zoom control will do the crop you want.
I appreciate your suggestions but it still does not do what we need.

Technically it sort of works for 2.40:1 content *IF* you do the vertical stretch in madVR (seems to vastly increase processing time even on an RTX 2070 if you have NGU enabled) So this already technically makes it unacceptable, as performance is much better doing the vertical stretch on the projector. But if you aren't zooming away the big black bars, then the left and right mask don't work, they cause the whole video to scale when you start bringing in the left and right.

And the second reason it doesn't work, is because now consider 2.35:1 content (rather than 2.40:1). If you view a 2.35:1 video, but the projector was zoomed to make 2.40:1 fit the vertical of his screen, now 2.35:1 spills over the top and bottom of his frame a little bit. So now even if you use the vertical stretch in madVR, using the madVR masking top and bottom now scales the whole video again, rather than just covering some of the top and bottom of the image with black pixels like he needs.

It was honestly like a 15 minute programming job to make a simple program to draw black rectangles around the screen so that all he had to do was open up a 2.40:1 video, zoom his projector so that the top and bottom of the video line up with his frame, then switch to a 2.35:1 video and open up my masking program, and bring all 4 sides in to cover all the overspill on all 4 sides, all without touching the video whatsoever. So now when he plays any movie between 2.40:1 and 2.35:1, it always fills his screen perfectly with no spill and no black bars on any side ever.

My program's functionality exactly emulates what you would get if you used the masking feature on a JVC or Sony projector.
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post #227 of 236 Old 06-30-2019, 10:53 PM
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Don’t you just set up lens memory and toggle between them? There are 1 button codes for all 10 lens memories. I can make you pronto codes. Will that let you enter them into harmony? Also madvr can send masking codes to your projector based on criteria via ip control but the harmony route is probably easiest. Are codes for lens memory 1 and 2 sufficient? And is pronto format what you need?


I use the one button codes for lens memories already, one of the RSsomething Harmony profiles has them all. The problem is recalling a mask with a one button code, there doesn’t seem to be an ir code for this.

The obvious (to me) thing would be to have the mask memories associated with the lens memories but that doesn’t appear to be the case. Or have I missed something really really obvious?

I have the lens memories working from Harmony for atv & bluray player. Madvr sends network commands for lens memories for htpc just need to add the mask memories.

I’m 1500 miles from the projector this week on a work trip but I’ll try the mask network commands from madvr when I’m back. It won’t work for the atv or bluray player but that’s less important, madvr will be the main source when it’s all working smoothly.

Thanks
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post #228 of 236 Old 06-30-2019, 10:57 PM
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I use the one button codes for lens memories already, one of the RSsomething Harmony profiles has them all. The problem is recalling a mask with a one button code, there doesn’t seem to be an ir code for this.

The obvious (to me) thing would be to have the mask memories associated with the lens memories but that doesn’t appear to be the case. Or have I missed something really really obvious?

I have the lens memories working from Harmony for atv & bluray player. Madvr sends network commands for lens memories for htpc just need to add the mask memories.

I’m 1500 miles from the projector this week on a work trip but I’ll try the mask network commands from madvr when I’m back. It won’t work for the atv or bluray player but that’s less important, madvr will be the main source when it’s all working smoothly.

Thanks


I was pretty sure that a lens memory will save a mask state.

So copy one of your lens memories to a new one and switch the masking mode in the new lens memory to a different mask mode.

Then when you toggle between the 2 lens memories, the mask is the only thing that will change.

Unless I’m mistaken and the masking mode doesn’t save in the lens memory.
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post #229 of 236 Old 06-30-2019, 11:01 PM
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I was pretty sure that a lens memory will save a mask state.

So copy one of your lens memories to a new one and switch the masking mode in the new lens memory to a different mask mode.

Then when you toggle between the 2 lens memories, the mask is the only thing that will change.

Unless I’m mistaken and the masking mode doesn’t save in the lens memory.


I don’t (didn’t) think it does... However I’m hoping I’m wrong and you are right, very happy to be proved wrong.

I’ll try it on Saturday when I’m home.
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post #230 of 236 Old 06-30-2019, 11:42 PM
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I don’t (didn’t) think it does... However I’m hoping I’m wrong and you are right, very happy to be proved wrong.

I’ll try it on Saturday when I’m home.
I also think mask is copied along with lens memory. But I see mask commands in the IP control set. You could try them using my jvccontrol. Looks like you can enable / disable mask and if its set to custom, you can explicitly specify the pixel masking values.

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post #231 of 236 Old 07-01-2019, 05:45 AM
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But if you aren't zooming away the big black bars, then the left and right mask don't work, they cause the whole video to scale when you start bringing in the left and right.
No, this does not happen. Check zoom small black bars away to get rid of the image scaling caused by adding the small black bars to the sides. I don't even know what we are arguing about anymore. Getting correct CIH at all times with cropping is what zoom control is designed for. I can't test the right configuration on your projector, but you can crop rather than resize depending on the combination of checkboxes you use.

zoom big black bars = large masking cropped; zoom small black bars = small masking cropped. I can crop a video on all four sides without rescaling by using those settings. I don't know how to set up CIH with an anamorphic stretch in madVR with side cropping, but it is probably similar. I've talked to a few people that use the anamorphic stretch with profile rules to handle the extra resources for 4K UHD sources.

Edit: I tried it on another computer. Maybe this feature is buggy because sometimes I got a crop on that computer and sometimes it rescaled. I don't know what conditions cause the image to crop, but it does work.

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post #232 of 236 Old 07-01-2019, 06:05 AM
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No, this does not happen. Check zoom small black bars away to get rid of the image scaling caused by adding the small black bars to the sides. I don't even know what we are arguing about anymore. Getting correct CIH at all times with cropping is what zoom control is designed for. I can't test the right configuration on your projector, but you can crop rather than resize depending on the combination of checkboxes you use.



zoom big black bars = large masking cropped; zoom small black bars = small masking cropped. I can crop a video on all four sides without rescaling by using those settings. I don't know how to set up CIH with an anamorphic stretch in madVR with side cropping, but it is probably similar. I've talked to a few people that use the anamorphic stretch with profile rules for 4K UHD content.



Edit: I tried it on another computer. Maybe this feature is buggy because sometimes I got a crop on that computer and sometimes it rescaled. I don't know what conditions cause the image to crop, but it does work.


Well that’s the thing. I’ve never got it to “crop”.

It always scales and I’ve tried all the settings on multiple computers too.
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post #233 of 236 Old 07-01-2019, 06:07 AM
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I don't know. I give up. You do need DXVA2 (copy-back) decoding, but that didn't solve it when I tried it another computer. After trying a couple of configurations, I got it to crop, but I don't know why it cropped.
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post #234 of 236 Old 07-01-2019, 08:50 AM
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I don't know. I give up. You do need DXVA2 (copy-back) decoding, but that didn't solve it when I tried it another computer. After trying a couple of configurations, I got it to crop, but I don't know why it cropped.
Yeah I was definitely using DXVA2 copy-back. But Like I said, it's OK that it wont't really work out since in the end, the problem is currently already solved for him via another means. I didn't mind perusing this because of course I like to explore how it works and what's possible, but it just seems like this zoom/crop functionality isn't so simple or straight forward and doesn't always do what you would expect it to or need it to.

I would ask madshi for a simple masking feature, because I do think it would be useful (and dead simple to implement), but I know hes way too busy with other things right now. Maybe in another several months I could bring it up.
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post #235 of 236 Old 07-01-2019, 09:01 AM
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Do the numbers on the OSD shows that the video is being cropped or being rescaled ? If yes then how to know it ? Thanks
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post #236 of 236 Old 10-24-2019, 08:41 AM
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Has anyone gotten 3D frame packed working properly with your HTPC and MadVR+New JVC without any issues? For me the only way I have got it working consistently is to check the Enable 3D box and when playing 3D enable box, then also check restore os stereo 3D settings in MadVR>Rendering. Then because I have a second display on my HTPC I have to unplug that monitor(not a big deal), but the real issue is after I stop the movie the JVC just displays snow (like old TV snow) and it wont go back to my HTPC screen until I unplug the HDMI and plug it back in.

Last edited by dgrizzard; 10-24-2019 at 08:45 AM.
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