Unable to pass whiter-than-white with JVC Projector..help please - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 23 Old 05-13-2020, 01:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Unable to pass whiter-than-white with JVC Projector..help please

Hello,
I am struggling to pass WTW with my JVC RS520 and my HTPC setup.
This is on Windows 10 with GTX 1070 and latest NVidia studio drivers (the non gaming ones).

I have the settings in Nvidia Control Panel as RGB, 12 bits (tried 8 and same results), FULL.
madvr set to 16-235 and my projector to Standard (16-235).
No matter what I try, when I play the clip, I cannot see more thank barely 235 flashing.


I tried mpc-be as well with its internal fiters just in case it was related to lava filters but same results.
Ran out of ideas on this :/

Projector: JVC DLA-RS520
Receiver: Onkyo TX-NR3010 Speakers: Rockets RS-760, RSC-200 (Bigfoot), RS-250, ELT525 | Subs: dual HSU VTF-15H and one MFW-15
Power Conditioner: Monster HTPS 7000 Signature
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post #2 of 23 Old 05-13-2020, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luis Gabriel Gerena View Post
Hello,
I am struggling to pass WTW with my JVC RS520 and my HTPC setup.
This is on Windows 10 with GTX 1070 and latest NVidia studio drivers (the non gaming ones).

I have the settings in Nvidia Control Panel as RGB, 12 bits (tried 8 and same results), FULL.
madvr set to 16-235 and my projector to Standard (16-235).
No matter what I try, when I play the clip, I cannot see more thank barely 235 flashing.


I tried mpc-be as well with its internal fiters just in case it was related to lava filters but same results.
Ran out of ideas on this :/

Why would expect to see anything beyond 16-235 when your projector is set not to show it?
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post #3 of 23 Old 05-13-2020, 03:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Vern Dias View Post
Why would expect to see anything beyond 16-235 when your projector is set not to show it?
because I said "No matter what I try, when I play the clip, I cannot see more thank barely 235 flashing."
meaning, I tried 0-255 madvr, 0-255 projector no matter how I configure it, I do not get flash over 235...

Projector: JVC DLA-RS520
Receiver: Onkyo TX-NR3010 Speakers: Rockets RS-760, RSC-200 (Bigfoot), RS-250, ELT525 | Subs: dual HSU VTF-15H and one MFW-15
Power Conditioner: Monster HTPS 7000 Signature
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post #4 of 23 Old 05-13-2020, 03:07 PM
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OK, but that's not what you said in your original post.


What player, what video decoder? What test pattern?
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post #5 of 23 Old 05-13-2020, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vern Dias View Post
OK, but that's not what you said in your original post.


What player, what video decoder?
mpc-hc, madvr, lav filters. Tried mpc-be with its internal filters and same issue.

Projector: JVC DLA-RS520
Receiver: Onkyo TX-NR3010 Speakers: Rockets RS-760, RSC-200 (Bigfoot), RS-250, ELT525 | Subs: dual HSU VTF-15H and one MFW-15
Power Conditioner: Monster HTPS 7000 Signature
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post #6 of 23 Old 05-13-2020, 03:13 PM
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PC HDMI connected directly to projector HDMI port ?
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post #7 of 23 Old 05-13-2020, 03:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vern Dias View Post
PC HDMI connected directly to projector HDMI port ?
Correct, HDMI to the projector directly and I disconnected the 2nd monitor I had just in case.

Projector: JVC DLA-RS520
Receiver: Onkyo TX-NR3010 Speakers: Rockets RS-760, RSC-200 (Bigfoot), RS-250, ELT525 | Subs: dual HSU VTF-15H and one MFW-15
Power Conditioner: Monster HTPS 7000 Signature
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post #8 of 23 Old 05-13-2020, 03:47 PM
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You might want to try a desktop test pattern and use it to validate the video card and projector settings.


http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/
https://www.eizo.be/monitor-test/
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post #9 of 23 Old 05-14-2020, 12:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vern Dias View Post
You might want to try a desktop test pattern and use it to validate the video card and projector settings.


http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/
https://www.eizo.be/monitor-test/
There is something odd with the Nvidia driver I assume.
If i download the white pattern from lagom and run it in madvr, with either 16-235 in both madvr and projector (GPU 0-255) or with everything 0-255, I can see all patterns.
But the clipping white video test still wont show my over 235 no matter what.
Tried a laptop with an old Quadro card and same thing.
BUT then tried a work laptop that has an intel card and at 16-235 madvr and projector, it finally shows me all bars. This only when I had both displays (monitor lcd and projector) duplicate 1080p. When I switched to extended, I was not able to get the same thing from the projector so not sure how to interpret this.
Very confusing results...so likely I will just ignore this and move on with my life lol

Projector: JVC DLA-RS520
Receiver: Onkyo TX-NR3010 Speakers: Rockets RS-760, RSC-200 (Bigfoot), RS-250, ELT525 | Subs: dual HSU VTF-15H and one MFW-15
Power Conditioner: Monster HTPS 7000 Signature
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post #10 of 23 Old 05-14-2020, 01:51 PM
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Intel iGPU has a nasty known issue that it automatically converts 0-255 into 16-235 over HDMI connection. So what you see is actually a wrongly converted video output unless you set your video output to 0-255 but then, anything over 235 is already clipped at your PC side before it reached graphics card.

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post #11 of 23 Old 05-14-2020, 09:07 PM
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I did some more research on this issue and discovered that the JVC projectors have a somewhat unusual take on levels.
It's called Super White and it uses 16-255. It is automatically invoked in any of the THX modes.


From the JVC FAQ:


The Input Level feature (also know as HDMI Input on older projectors) allows you to select the HDMI input setting that matches the HDMI setting of the device that is connected to the projector. For projector models that are THX certified, you have a choice of Enhanced, Standard and Super White (and Auto for newer models). For nearly all your video sources you would want to use Standard mode, unless it is forced to Super White by THX mode. Super White is used for when the video source is uning "whiter-than-white" video levels (this is not very common, except for THX certified movies). Enhanced mode should be used for PC input signals using the HDMI input.
A deeper understanding of HDMI levels will help to clarify the proper use of this feature, so here is a basic primer: HDMI is a digital signal format used for transmitting audio and video signals. For consumer grade video, shades of gray (and color shades) are represented by the digital value range of 0 - 255 (8-bit video). Fundamentally, value 0 is black, value 255 is white, and the values between are levels of gray. However, the actual range of video for each type of signal source is:

0 – 255 = Video range for PC graphic signals (Enhanced setting)

  • 16 – 235 = Video range for standard video signals (Standard setting)
    16 – 255 = Video range for Super White video sources (Super White setting)
Although video from a PC utilizes the entire 0 – 255 range, typical video sources use level 16 as the base level for black and level 235 as the peak level for 100% white. Super White video sources also use level 16 for black but use level 255 for peak white. You might experience crushed blacks, clipped whites, or a washed out image if your projector HDMI level setting doesn’t match the video source.
Normally, the preferred method is to set both the Blu-ray player and the Projector to Standard mode. Some Blu-ray players do not have an option to change the HDMI output levels but they are typically defaulted to Standard video levels. Some Blu-ray players have a Super Bright output mode (it might have another name), but that would only be preferred if you projector is defaulting to Super White because you have selected the THX mode. But the preferred (and standardized) method is to use Standard mode for all non-THX modes.
Please note that the projector’s Standard, Enhanced, and Super White mode selection is a global setting that will not save with any of the Picture Modes.



This may shed some light on your issue.
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post #12 of 23 Old 05-16-2020, 09:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vern Dias View Post
I did some more research on this issue and discovered that the JVC projectors have a somewhat unusual take on levels.
It's called Super White and it uses 16-255. It is automatically invoked in any of the THX modes.


From the JVC FAQ:


The Input Level feature (also know as HDMI Input on older projectors) allows you to select the HDMI input setting that matches the HDMI setting of the device that is connected to the projector. For projector models that are THX certified, you have a choice of Enhanced, Standard and Super White (and Auto for newer models). For nearly all your video sources you would want to use Standard mode, unless it is forced to Super White by THX mode. Super White is used for when the video source is uning "whiter-than-white" video levels (this is not very common, except for THX certified movies). Enhanced mode should be used for PC input signals using the HDMI input.
A deeper understanding of HDMI levels will help to clarify the proper use of this feature, so here is a basic primer: HDMI is a digital signal format used for transmitting audio and video signals. For consumer grade video, shades of gray (and color shades) are represented by the digital value range of 0 - 255 (8-bit video). Fundamentally, value 0 is black, value 255 is white, and the values between are levels of gray. However, the actual range of video for each type of signal source is:

0 – 255 = Video range for PC graphic signals (Enhanced setting)

  • 16 – 235 = Video range for standard video signals (Standard setting)
    16 – 255 = Video range for Super White video sources (Super White setting)
Although video from a PC utilizes the entire 0 – 255 range, typical video sources use level 16 as the base level for black and level 235 as the peak level for 100% white. Super White video sources also use level 16 for black but use level 255 for peak white. You might experience crushed blacks, clipped whites, or a washed out image if your projector HDMI level setting doesn’t match the video source.
Normally, the preferred method is to set both the Blu-ray player and the Projector to Standard mode. Some Blu-ray players do not have an option to change the HDMI output levels but they are typically defaulted to Standard video levels. Some Blu-ray players have a Super Bright output mode (it might have another name), but that would only be preferred if you projector is defaulting to Super White because you have selected the THX mode. But the preferred (and standardized) method is to use Standard mode for all non-THX modes.
Please note that the projector’s Standard, Enhanced, and Super White mode selection is a global setting that will not save with any of the Picture Modes.



This may shed some light on your issue.
That is intriguing for sure. Thanks for looking that up!

Projector: JVC DLA-RS520
Receiver: Onkyo TX-NR3010 Speakers: Rockets RS-760, RSC-200 (Bigfoot), RS-250, ELT525 | Subs: dual HSU VTF-15H and one MFW-15
Power Conditioner: Monster HTPS 7000 Signature
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post #13 of 23 Old 05-21-2020, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vern Dias View Post
I did some more research on this issue and discovered that the JVC projectors have a somewhat unusual take on levels.
It's called Super White and it uses 16-255. It is automatically invoked in any of the THX modes.
Keep in mind you lose about 20% peak luminance when you use Super White.
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post #14 of 23 Old 05-21-2020, 11:48 AM
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Keep in mind you lose about 20% peak luminance when you use Super White.
So, you're saying that none of the THX presets should ever be used since they all force Super White?
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post #15 of 23 Old 05-21-2020, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Vern Dias View Post
So, you're saying that none of the THX presets should ever be used since they all force Super White?
I didn’t say anything like that. I was just pointing out the consequences of using Super White. Many people have plenty of lumens to spare when watching SDR (calibrating to 50 nits peak white), so losing 20% is not an issue.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 05-21-2020 at 03:35 PM.
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post #16 of 23 Old 05-21-2020, 12:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I didn’t say anything like that. I was just pointing out the consequences of using Super White. Many people they have plenty of lumens to spare when watching SDR (calibrating to 50 nits peak white), so losing 20% is not an issue.
Indeed, 20% in my case is a big no no.

Projector: JVC DLA-RS520
Receiver: Onkyo TX-NR3010 Speakers: Rockets RS-760, RSC-200 (Bigfoot), RS-250, ELT525 | Subs: dual HSU VTF-15H and one MFW-15
Power Conditioner: Monster HTPS 7000 Signature
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post #17 of 23 Old 05-21-2020, 02:06 PM
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I was just pointing out the consequences of using Super White.
I'm curious where your 20% value is coming from unless you are assuming that the device is still sending the projector limited range video, which would not be advisable. With MadVR, you can easily configure a custom video range of 16 to 255 and set the video card to output full range. Of course, YMMV, and it should be validated with the appropriate test patterns.
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post #18 of 23 Old 05-21-2020, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vern Dias View Post
I'm curious where your 20% value is coming from unless you are assuming that the device is still sending the projector limited range video, which would not be advisable. With MadVR, you can easily configure a custom video range of 16 to 255 and set the video card to output full range. Of course, YMMV, and it should be validated with the appropriate test patterns.
This thread is about passing WTW, which is only possible with the device sending limited range and the projector in Super White. That results in the 20% “loss”.

If you configure a custom video range of 16-255 it would be “going back to square one” as far as WTW is concerned. I can’t see any advantage with this, compared with using 0-255.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 05-21-2020 at 02:31 PM.
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If you configure a custom video range of 16-255 it would be “going back to square one” as far as WTW is concerned. I can’t see any advantage with this, compared with using 0-255.
The possible advantage would only apply to using a projector (like the JVC) that won't (actually can't) support 0-255 when using a THX option setup. Note that I have not done extensive research into the advantages or disadvantages of the THX options on the JVC. The JVC manual statement for the THX modes simply states: Image quality certified by THX.
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post #20 of 23 Old 05-22-2020, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vern Dias View Post
The possible advantage would only apply to using a projector (like the JVC) that won't (actually can't) support 0-255 when using a THX option setup. Note that I have not done extensive research into the advantages or disadvantages of the THX options on the JVC. The JVC manual statement for the THX modes simply states: Image quality certified by THX.
The reason JVC uses 16-255 for THX is to allow WTW to be passed to the the display without being clipped. If you use a custom range of 16-255 for the source that defeats the purpose of Super White as there will be no longer any headroom for WTW.

In any case, I’m signing out of this discussion.
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post #21 of 23 Old 05-22-2020, 10:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, I have tried Super White but still does not get me there. The only time I saw WTW passing was with that Intel GPU laptop so I am forgetting about WTW for now.

Projector: JVC DLA-RS520
Receiver: Onkyo TX-NR3010 Speakers: Rockets RS-760, RSC-200 (Bigfoot), RS-250, ELT525 | Subs: dual HSU VTF-15H and one MFW-15
Power Conditioner: Monster HTPS 7000 Signature
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post #22 of 23 Old 05-22-2020, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luis Gabriel Gerena View Post
Well, I have tried Super White but still does not get me there. The only time I saw WTW passing was with that Intel GPU laptop so I am forgetting about WTW for now.
The source also needs to pass WTW.
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post #23 of 23 Old 05-22-2020, 10:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The source also needs to pass WTW.
It must have something to do with the GTX 1070 because that is the difference between the two tests one Intel and one GTX1070. Although someone said INtel has a bug that forces 16-235...
Too much hassle in the end for this to bother finding out why IMO.

Projector: JVC DLA-RS520
Receiver: Onkyo TX-NR3010 Speakers: Rockets RS-760, RSC-200 (Bigfoot), RS-250, ELT525 | Subs: dual HSU VTF-15H and one MFW-15
Power Conditioner: Monster HTPS 7000 Signature
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