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post #1 of 27 Old 12-28-2007, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
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I recently bought the Epson TW2000 1920*1080 projector. Must say, a great one! But since the switch to this pj (came from a Mitsubishi HC3000) I have big tearing troubles with my HTPC. (I own the 7600GS 256mb ddr2 card and installed the latest Nvidia driver). Tonight I DID found a way to eliminate eg. 80% of the tearing but it is stil there sometimes. What I did to solve most of the tearing was turn ON 'Wait for Vertical Sync' in the Nvidia config. Turning this to 'let app. decide' or 'OFF' gives me tearing almost the entire movie playback!

So at this moment the tearing IS less but it is still there and annoying. I just watched a whole movie and every minute or so there is tearing. Most of all (like expected) the tearing is worse during fast scenes in a movie.

So what steps do I take to eleminate this problem?

What you should know:

- Full Screen mode in TheaterTek is turned ON
- I use a custom made resolution with Powerstrip that matches with reclock EXACTLY (zero drops and repeats that reclock reports after an entire movie!)
- Use the lastest Nvidia drivers
- XP with SP2
- Latest TT version with VMR9

I also know that the problem is probably caused by the VMR9 renderer but I do not want to switch to Vista (and use the evr renderer) because of ReClock incompatibility with Vista.

I made a custom res. with Powerstrip of 1920*[email protected],971 which results in a 47,959Hz (VERY close to the PERFECT 47,952Hz as you can see!) reported by ReClock.

So what more steps can I take to solve this problem?
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post #2 of 27 Old 12-28-2007, 02:30 PM
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I own the Dell 2007wfp.
When I play iTunes Music Videos, particularly Feist's "Inside and Out" I get bad tearing.

This is using XP MCE 2005, ATI X1300 pro PCIE.

I tried fiddling around with the vsync refresh, and all the other settings and nothing fixed it.

I also Own Vista Premium, and playing any iTunes Music video with the same setup I get no tearing.
In fact the picture is beautiful, clear, no artifacts.

What might work for you is if you switch from XP to Vista.
In the mean time, try out iTunes on your MCE PC and buy Feist's "Inside and out" and see if it tears.
It should show tearing I would guess.
If it shows tearing you can expect Vista to fix both the iTunes video and your dvd tearing.


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post #3 of 27 Old 12-28-2007, 02:43 PM
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If you didn't have such tearing with the previous projector, perhaps Epson is responsable for trouble?
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post #4 of 27 Old 12-28-2007, 03:15 PM
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Here's a test pattern, see if you can see the full image: Link


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post #5 of 27 Old 12-28-2007, 03:53 PM
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Using these patterns, you should be able to resolve a picture with 1 pixel lines if your projector can display 1920x1080p.
Not all monitors can resolve the resolution they are advertised at.
If your can't, it will flicker, or might blur I suspect.

Vertical test
Horizontal test

"For resolution testing, I think the top bar will still flicker even with full res. if you do not have a 1920 x 1080(p) display."
Link to quote.

When a 1080p is not 1080p, but a lower resolution. They say the full resolution is not resolved.
For lcd's and crt's this is common.
Trying to get 1080p when your monitor can't display it might introduce tearing.


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post #6 of 27 Old 12-28-2007, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8:13 View Post

Trying to get 1080p when your monitor can't display it might introduce tearing.

How do you figure that?
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post #7 of 27 Old 12-28-2007, 06:28 PM
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I remember reading somewhere that Progressive showed one frame at a time, while interlaced showed the frame in pieces.
If the interlaced had fast motion, there was tearing.

I'm assuming if you set your resolution to 1080 and it has to interlace it you'll get tearing during fast motion.
I'm not sure as I've lost the link. I was reading it the other day. That if your lcd can only do a lower resolution than the advertised progressive resolution, that it would not be treated as the progressive resolution?

If the smaller resolution is not treated as the larger progressive resolution, then with sanderdvd, the tearing might be a result of trying to get a progressive resolution and a different resolution is being worked with.


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post #8 of 27 Old 12-28-2007, 06:45 PM
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To put it simply; no.
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post #9 of 27 Old 12-28-2007, 06:52 PM
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kylebisme,

No what?

No that the smaller resolution is or is not treated as the larger progressive resolution?
Or,
That I could get 720p to be treated as 1080p?


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post #10 of 27 Old 12-28-2007, 07:55 PM
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I'm sorry.

For the past few days I was reading about crt's since the direct views are cheap now and I forgot lcd's are never interlaced.


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post #11 of 27 Old 12-28-2007, 08:23 PM
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What type of connection are you using?

I've got a projector and tv that both tear considerably when using a vga cable. Nothing I have tried will stop it.

If I connect them with a component video cable or hdmi/dvi cable the tearing disappears.
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post #12 of 27 Old 12-29-2007, 12:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8:13 View Post

What might work for you is if you switch from XP to Vista.

Like I said in my post. I do not want to switch to Vista cause of the ReClock incompatibility. thxz anyway!
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post #13 of 27 Old 12-29-2007, 12:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kylebisme View Post

If you didn't have such tearing with the previous projector, perhaps Epson is responsable for trouble?

no, because I ve tested the same dvd material with other upscaling components like the PS3 and this gives no tearing issues. So you say, why not pick the PS3 as player? Because I strongly believe in the PQ of an HTPC!
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post #14 of 27 Old 12-29-2007, 12:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boke01 View Post

What type of connection are you using?

I've got a projector and tv that both tear considerably when using a vga cable. Nothing I have tried will stop it.

If I connect them with a component video cable or hdmi/dvi cable the tearing disappears.


Using the HDMI cable of course. So that s not the problem.
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post #15 of 27 Old 12-29-2007, 01:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8:13 View Post

kylebisme,

No what?

"No" as in; no, you aren't making any sense at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post

no, because I ve tested the same dvd material with other upscaling components like the PS3 and this gives no tearing issues.

Playing back the DVDs on your PS3 shows the projector can handle a 60hz singal without tearing, but it doesn't say anything for it's ablity to handle a 48hz singal like you are running from your PC.
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post #16 of 27 Old 12-29-2007, 02:16 AM - Thread Starter
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what about trying 24 or 72Hz as output? Could this maybe solve my problem? Are there any disadvantages about 72Hz?
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post #17 of 27 Old 12-29-2007, 02:49 AM
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Both 72hz or 24hz could conceivably give you tear free and smooth playback, so yeah they are certianly worth trying.
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post #18 of 27 Old 12-29-2007, 04:39 AM
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Those who are experiencing tearing using Nvidia cards and DVI/HDMI connections need to be aware of the following:

Several years ago, Nvidia omitted an important logic function from their cards for the DVI outputs. Basically they omitted the logic that restricts refresh of the image to the sync intervals between frames. The result of this is that when the refresh occurs during the actual time that the image is being output, visible tearing will occur. The higher your output resolution and the higher your refresh rate, the more likely that the tearing will become visible. This is because the actual sync time between frames is being reduced in relation to the overall time it takes to output a frame.

This ONLY affects VMR9 using DVI. Overlay is OK, VMR7 is OK. VGA is OK. If you see tearing when not using DVI and VMR9, look elsewhere for your problem.

When NVidia was made aware of these tearing problems, their response was that VMR9 should only be used in renderless full screen mode with a custom allocator-presenter.

Some software, like Theatertek, provide support for this mode. The problem with using this mode is that functions we take for granted (like supporting pop-up menus) become the responsibility of the application coder rather than the OS.

ATI cards do not have this problem.

If this is the cause of the tearing you are seeing, you have several choices.

Use VMR9 renderless full screen mode which limits your software choices. (That's what the original poster did)
Use VMR7.
Use Overlay.
Switch to ATI. Either the 3850 or the 3870 are excellent choices for Video and HD playback.

Vern
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post #19 of 27 Old 12-29-2007, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vern Dias View Post

If this is the cause of the tearing you are seeing, you have several choices.

Use VMR9 renderless full screen mode which limits your software choices. (That's what the original poster did)
Use VMR7.
Use Overlay.
Switch to ATI. Either the 3850 or the 3870 are excellent choices for Video and HD playback.

Vern

Vern, is it easy to output 24Hz signal from ATI cards that you are recommending ? Using WinXP SP2.

Thanks, Davie.
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post #20 of 27 Old 12-31-2007, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vern Dias View Post

Those who are experiencing tearing using Nvidia cards and DVI/HDMI connections need to be aware of the following:

Several years ago, Nvidia omitted an important logic function from their cards for the DVI outputs. Basically they omitted the logic that restricts refresh of the image to the sync intervals between frames. The result of this is that when the refresh occurs during the actual time that the image is being output, visible tearing will occur. The higher your output resolution and the higher your refresh rate, the more likely that the tearing will become visible. This is because the actual sync time between frames is being reduced in relation to the overall time it takes to output a frame.

This ONLY affects VMR9 using DVI. Overlay is OK, VMR7 is OK. VGA is OK. If you see tearing when not using DVI and VMR9, look elsewhere for your problem.

When NVidia was made aware of these tearing problems, their response was that VMR9 should only be used in renderless full screen mode with a custom allocator-presenter.

Some software, like Theatertek, provide support for this mode. The problem with using this mode is that functions we take for granted (like supporting pop-up menus) become the responsibility of the application coder rather than the OS.

ATI cards do not have this problem.

If this is the cause of the tearing you are seeing, you have several choices.

Use VMR9 renderless full screen mode which limits your software choices. (That's what the original poster did)
Use VMR7.
Use Overlay.
Switch to ATI. Either the 3850 or the 3870 are excellent choices for Video and HD playback.

Vern

I also have intermittent tearing problems on my HTPC with an nvidia card and TT. I tried switching to VMR7 and that did not help. I know unequivically that the tearing is the HTPC because it does not happen on any other source regardless of resolution.

Any other ideas?
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post #21 of 27 Old 01-04-2008, 01:58 PM
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So hey guys I have the Nvidia 8600GTS card in my HTPC and with any DVD played with either WMC or PowerDVD I get the tearing which makes it not much fun to watch. My question is, if I switch to a ATI card such as the "ASUS EAH3850 256MB PCI-E" will that solve my problem. Note I don't mind buying the new card just don't want it to be a waisted effort. Also I get terrible overscan with my setup will the ATI card help that at all?
Thanks for any help
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post #22 of 27 Old 01-04-2008, 02:39 PM
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This is a shot in the dark, but current Rivatuner downloads contain an app called D3doverrider. This will force Vsync (and triplebuffering if desired) to be enabled in everything that runs in/on DirectX.
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post #23 of 27 Old 01-04-2008, 08:27 PM
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Thanks SteelWill I will give it a try. Funny when I started this HTPC setup I never thought I would run into all these problems but what the heck that's what makes this stuff interesting....
Thanks again
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post #24 of 27 Old 01-13-2008, 10:34 PM
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I wanted to bump this because I've been running into this issue myself since discovering hulu.com. Windows XP doesn't enforce vsync on anything rendered by the desktop renderer. You can see this by dragging a window side to side quickly to produce tearing. Well this will also show up in things like Flash videos that don't use anything other than the desktop GDI for rendering. Vista enforces vsync on the desktop so it's not an issue in that OS, but it looks like there is just no way to get around this in XP. At least not one that I have been able to find.

There's a related article here with this ominus conclusion:

Avoiding tearing with GDI

Neither the vertical blank nor the beam position can be accessed with GDI. Therefore, unless you're running on Windows Vista with the desktop composition engine enabled, the answer is: you don't.
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post #25 of 27 Old 01-14-2008, 12:22 AM
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It sounds to me like a problem with response time on the projector.
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post #26 of 27 Old 01-14-2008, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidryder View Post

It sounds to me like a problem with response time on the projector.

I think most of us have enough sources to rule out the projector on this issue. I know its not my projector, anyway.

But, mysteriously, my HTPC has not had a problem with the last 4 or 5 things I've played. I re-started it recently (for another reason). Maybe that helped. If it starts doing it again, I'll re-start and see what happens.
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post #27 of 27 Old 01-14-2008, 07:50 AM
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For me the newer nVidia drivers are the culprit. In my HTPC I had a 7900 GTO. I upgraded to the 8800GT and installed the new drivers. I got very bad tearing. Meanwhile my desktop PC that also had a 7900GTO showed no tearing. Then I noticed that the same nVidia drivers I had for the 8800GT were available for the 7900GTO, so I upgraded these too. Voila, I introduced tearing in a setup that previously was free of tearing by installing the latest drivers. That was in December and I haven't checked for a new release that may have improved (or worsened) things.
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