Originally Posted by westom
Chris - read only what is posted. Stop reading hidden meanings. Your biases are only confusing you. If you want to learn, start by assuming everything you know was probably wrong. Then read only what was posted - especially every number.
What biases? What are you talking about?
I am not assuming anything, but you're not telling me anything coherent.
I have never assumed anything in this thread. My very first post said among other things: ...I'm in a position of ignorance regarding surge supressors I wanted to avoid the real cheap stuff mainly out of peace of mind, which may or may not be wasted money.
And:I don't really know if I should or should not have peace of mind with the protection I currently have, or whether I should in the future not spend so much money on it. I've never really found any really good explanations that were specific enough to particular products that made it very helpful to really know what I should be looking at.
I don't know how much more clearly to state that I do not know much about the products I purchased, which I did so from a state of ignorance. Hence asking questions in this thread. Unfortunately, it's not helping get any good explanations of anything, I'm just going in circles and you're not making any sense.
Zerosurge accurately shows what that indicator light reports. Nothing bashes MOVs. Exampled were MOV protectors so grossly undersized to maximize profits - to not provide protection. Nothing in the Zerosurge pictures discuss 'whole house' protectors. Did you get that? Zerosurge was critical of plug-in protectors that do not provide and do not claim to provide protection. Completely different is a 'whole house' protector.
Their article and other tech articles written by people affiliated with zerosurge do criticize MOVs. That's their main selling point. They appear to me to be very well-written articles, however I take them with a grain of salt because they have a particular product niche that obviously may bias their perspective, hence I don't just blindly accept what they're saying.
Why assume plug-in and 'whole house' protectors do same? If you read only what I posted, you learned a 'whole house' protector does things that a plug-in protector cannot. A 'whole house' protector even earths direct lightning strikes and remains functional. A 'whole house' protector means nobody even knew a surge existed. And still some so ignore numbers as to believe MOVs are sacrificial devices.
Well that's what zero surge is saying that MOVs are sacrificial.
Do you understand just how contradicting, convoluted, confusing, and utterly disorganized your posts are? You are not making any sense.
Effective protectors are constructed using MOVs. So let's make it simpler. Point 1: Some of the crappiest protectors use MOVs. And some of the best protectors use MOVs. Zerosurge pictures show that IF you make no assumptions. Where does Zerosurge discuss 'whole house' protectors? It does not - obviously.
I am looking for your point here. I don't see one.
Let's make it simpler. Point 2: If you want to be scammed, buy a plug-in protector. If you want protection, earth a 'whole house' protector. A list of 'whole house' protectors were posted yesterday. Posted earlier were the numbers you memorized - because selection mean you grasped every number.
Well, I've been a zillion commercial installations with plug-in protectors as well as panel devices. I can't say that I'm convinced given that numerous utilities and others also recommend plug-in protectors of some type, because surges may originate inside a building particularly if it's a large commercial complex.
Let's make it simple. Point 3: Wall receptacle provides no earth ground. A receptacle is safety grounded; not earth grounded.
What? What do you mean by this? Neutral and safety ground both are grounded to the earth. That's their nature. What are you talking about?
Reading only what was posted means you read that earth ground "must meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical code". Not safety ground. Every ground to wall receptacles obviously is not earth ground. If you disagree, then your post includes many numbers that say why you disagree.
Disagree with what? What the heck are you saying? Both the ground and the neutral are grounded AND bonded together at the panel. Obviously there is some resistance which may be a concern by the time you get all the way to where your outlet is, but what are you saying, that ground and neutral are NOT grounded!?
Numbers Chris. Your every reply never has numbers. That suggests your eyes routinely glaze over with each number. You are learning nothing if reading subjectively. What was posted is consistent. But if you did not grasp every number as if your life depended on it, then you did not read what was posted. Ignoring numbers explains why you are confused and frustrated. Explains why your replies are inconsistent with what was posted.
That's because I'm not an EE, I've been busy with other things, and the numbers I have seen are conflicting and conflict with numbers and claims I've seen elsewhere.
Stop being accusatory. Your accusations say how much you still have to learn. You replies should be reposting every number with questions to better understand those numbers. Instead you are making the classic mistake - thinking subjectively. Not discussing every posted number.
I'm not thinking subjectively. I'm asking questions which nobody is addressing in a coherent, intelligible way. English is my native tongue, and I have years of tech experience, but you're not making a damn bit of sense.
[quote] You ignored facts posted previously. Even ignored so many 'whole house' protectors posted yesterday. Previously posted were numbers for any minimally effective protector. You did not even acknowledge that 'learn it or die' fact. AV Doogle also provided a very robust solution.
Posted were benchmarks to identify ineffective protectors. Did you read that? 1) It has no dedicated connection to earth. 2) Manufacturer does not discuss earth ground. If you did, then you know the difference is massive between a plug-in protector and a 'whole house' protector. But your repeated frustration suggests you ignored every number.
Plug-in protectors have no dedicated earth wire (Strike one).
Eh? What do you mean? They're grounded. That's where they dump the surge if they're an MOV shunting it to ground. This strike does not make sense to me. Ball one.
The manufacturer does not discuss earthing (Strike two).
Which manufacturer? Most simple MOV devices give you a light that at least verifies that ground is present. Doesn't tell you it's much good, but at least that it's there. That's not discussing it? This doesn't make sense to me either. Ball two.
Its numeric specs make no claims for surge protection (Strike three).
The only two devices I mentioned were a tripplite unit which does list joules of surge protection, as does the surgex unit. Ball three. I don't know how to interpret these claims because I'm not an EE and it has not been sufficiently explained to me by anyone here or elsewhere so I'm still in the dark.
See those scary pictures that demonstrate frequent problems only with plug-in protectors (Strike four).
Yes. But as you said, only if they're undersized MOVs and cheaply designed, so I don't see how that's relevant except to say that you shouldn't buy the cheapest plug-in protector you can find since it's probably cheesy and might catch on fire if hit with too many surges. Ball four.
The $25 and $150 plug-in protectors have the same protector circuit selling for $7 in a grocery store - because its purpose if profits; not protection (Strike five).
Again, you wrote above stuff that contradicts this. There are clearly very different capabilities in different MOV plug-in units.
You asked for effective protection. Scary pictures alone show a major difference between plug-in and 'whole house' protectors. But then one is sold for maximum profit. The other is sold by far more responsible companies to provide actual surge protection. Numbers that define protection were also provided. If you grasped the numbers, you would not be so confused. If you posted actual questions with numbers rather than being accusatory, then I might actually believe you are reading before posting.
Somehow you are infatuated with MOVs rather than what makes MOVs so effective. Your replies suggest only superficial reading. Did not read multiple times with enough care to understand the massive difference between plug-in and ‘whole house’ protectors.
I feel like I'm trying to listen to Glenn Beck here. You're going in rambling incoherent circles. I shouldn't be infatuated with MOVs yet I should
be infatuated with how they're so effective? What?
I'm just trying to ask questions, and you're kind of treating me like a fool for trying to figure this stuff out. I don't appreciate it. If you want to provide something helpful, GREAT! Please do. Otherwise, what the hell? Sense: please start making some!