Panasonic ZT60 is Potential "Kuro Killer," Plasma Not Dead Yet - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 149 Old 04-11-2013, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

If only... rolleyes.gif

No need to roll eyes. Point is the comparisons are BS. As with all manufacturer made demos.

It's not a good comparison to tell how much better the ZT60 is than the kuro since the kuro wasn't performing its best. I hope D-Nice brings his 141 to the shootout so we can really see how much better these 2013 TV's are over the kuro.

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post #32 of 149 Old 04-11-2013, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

I have it on good authority that the Kuro Panasonic used in the comparison was a Pro-141 signature series. It was confirmed as functional and properly calibrated a few weeks prior to the demonstrations, but that's certainly no guarantee it was still properly calibrated when I saw it.

That kuro was not calibrated. Same as the one from the U.K event.

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post #33 of 149 Old 04-11-2013, 01:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by saprano View Post

No need to roll eyes. Point is the comparisons are BS. As with all manufacturer made demos.

It's not a good comparison to tell how much better the ZT60 is than the kuro since the kuro wasn't performing its best. I hope D-Nice brings his 141 to the shootout so we can really see how much better these 2013 TV's are over the kuro.
There are aspects of performance where the new TVs are visibly superior, such as refresh rate, and screen darkness in partially lit rooms. There's also no proof that the Kuro was not performing at its best. It's definitely a good idea to wait for the shoot outs, before coming to an informed conclusion. However, I would like to dispel any notion that we were looking at a defective Kuro. For all I know, the Kuro could have been calibrated and the Panasonic was too dark. there was a discrepancy, there always is between two different models, it really wasn't that big a deal. For their part, Panasonic seems pretty confident that their TV will emerge on top when the real competitions go down. Their marketing slogan "beyond the reference" reflects that.

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post #34 of 149 Old 04-11-2013, 01:37 PM
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The comparison I'd like to see is between the Samsung F8500 and the ZT60, the two top panels that are in production (or almost in production wink.gif). To me it makes sense to compare panels that are actually available for sale as opposed to those that haven't been in production for years. Novel idea, no?

With that said, Mark's observations are pretty much on target with what I reported. The only difference I'd suggest is that, at least to my eyes, the Kuro blacks looked just a tad blacker. However I really believe the ZT60 did enough things better than the Kuro to make it the better display. I know some will never believe or accept that, and it can be subjective, but there were certain visible and measurable differences in the ZT60's favor that are hard to refute.

The shadow detail was better, it's rendition of reds more realistic, its motion handling better, to my eyes it was sharper and the filter makes it much more usable in brighter light. To me that's a pretty convincing combination of attributes. smile.gif
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post #35 of 149 Old 04-11-2013, 02:01 PM
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I just wish it would come out already so I could see it in person. Not looking for a new TV but it might give me an excuse to replace my VT50 wink.gif

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post #36 of 149 Old 04-11-2013, 02:39 PM
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Really mark? I guess there could be no puffing in their advertising? Anyone recall "Perfect sound forever" How about all the incredible glowing advertising around high end audio and video cables? Again, all these public showings by manufacturers are to be taken with a grain of salt. The Kuro was not functioning properly if it had reddish blacks. I have a calibrated 141 and can show you what it looks like without reddish blacks. For what it is worth, it is about time for a set that is better than a Kuro in all respects. I hope both of these sets are, that is the zt60 and the 8500. They SHOULD be. I know all the calibrators in the shootout and am confident that they will reveal just how good the sets are. You should attend.

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post #37 of 149 Old 04-11-2013, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

There are aspects of performance where the new TVs are visibly superior, such as refresh rate, and screen darkness in partially lit rooms. There's also no proof that the Kuro was not performing at its best. It's definitely a good idea to wait for the shoot outs, before coming to an informed conclusion. However, I would like to dispel any notion that we were looking at a defective Kuro. For all I know, the Kuro could have been calibrated and the Panasonic was too dark. there was a discrepancy, there always is between two different models, it really wasn't that big a deal. For their part, Panasonic seems pretty confident that their TV will emerge on top when the real competitions go down. Their marketing slogan "beyond the reference" reflects that.

I believe you that the ZT60 performed well. I'm just saying the kuro doesn't look like it should. No kuro is that dull and washed out. Something Ken himself said he saw and pretty much agreed with me-
Quote:
So here's another point and it's all too common in these manufacturer A/Bs (and why Robert's shootouts are SOOO much better!). I thought my Pro 151 looked better than the Kuro they had in this comparison. The colors on the ZT60 looked very saturated by comparison to the Kuro. But why did it seem the Kuro's colors were somewhat DEsaturated. Never saw that on mine. Hmm. Saturation and colors on the pale side were never a characteristic of my ISF'd Pro 151. I don't think this aspect of the A/B was accurate, at least not IMO. I think the press, depending on what they want to see, can be fooled more easily than some of us.

I don't know why he's doing a complete 180 now. Not only are the colors out of wack, but the brightness is wrong too. If you're going to do a comparison do it right. That's all i'm saying. This has nothing to do with ZT60 vs Kuro. I believe the ZT60 will rank on top over all sets including the F8500. But fair is fair.

Here is a report from someone who was at the event in february-
Quote:
That said, we also have to stress that the Pioneer Kuro on display had a bit more faded colors that what we are used to from the Kuro TVs. Panasonic was very open and told us that they had basically looked far and wide. After weeks they found a used Kuro that was owned by an enthusiastic user (so it probably has been used quite extensively). They bought it. Panasonic had not fiddled with the settings, a fact we were able to confirm after seeing the menu.

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1361272859

Here's how a kuro really performs-

https://www.avsforum.com/t/1452697/where-is-my-our-kuro-replacement/330#post_22970738

Come on guys. You should know better than this. I shouldn't have to dig out information to prove my point.

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post #38 of 149 Old 04-11-2013, 02:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JWhip View Post

Really mark? I guess there could be no puffing in their advertising? Anyone recall "Perfect sound forever" How about all the incredible glowing advertising around high end audio and video cables? Again, all these public showings by manufacturers are to be taken with a grain of salt. The Kuro was not functioning properly if it had reddish blacks. I have a calibrated 141 and can show you what it looks like without reddish blacks. For what it is worth, it is about time for a set that is better than a Kuro in all respects. I hope both of these sets are, that is the zt60 and the 8500. They SHOULD be. I know all the calibrators in the shootout and am confident that they will reveal just how good the sets are. You should attend.

I am going to attend some shoot-outs, indeed. I'm not naive, a silly slogan like that is not enough to convince me of anything. However, Pioneer used the same kind of marketing language to describe the Kuro when it came out, that's par for the course.

The Kuro did not have reddish blacks, please understand that the photos which revealed that hue were extreme over-exposures. Both TVs exhibited deep blacks that looked proper and neutral to the human eye. The intention of the photos was to reveal the levels of gradation rendered in the deepest shadows. There is no perfect, neutral black in the world of HDTVs, at least not until OLED is available in stores. Plasma TVs will always exhibit some sort of color cast in their supposed "pure black" if photographed in this manner.

" This meticulous attention to detail provides an unmatched HD experience that surpasses the standards of flawlessness." Pioneer, regarding the Kuro 141 Signature Series

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post #39 of 149 Old 04-11-2013, 03:02 PM
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I will be there on the Friday shootout. If you are there, say hello. Robert will point me out for you.

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post #40 of 149 Old 04-11-2013, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
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I will be there on the Friday shootout. If you are there, say hello. Robert will point me out for you.

Cool. My plan is to go both nights, so I'll see you there. Hopefully there will be production units of the ZT60 by then, as well as the Samsung F8500, because according to Panasonic the ZT60 isn't supposed to be available until June, with no MSRP as of now. The VT60 did outperform the VT50, so at least there's that, and the IPS LED panels are truly improving rapidly; I wonder, at some point in the near future—before OLED goes mainstream—will IPS LED will be able to satisfy the most discerning cinephiles? It seems possible.

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post #41 of 149 Old 04-11-2013, 03:15 PM
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The Kuro used @ the Panasonic event was purchased used from E-Bay, eek.gif



A Panasonic engineer compared , in his home , A Pioneer Kuro 111(his own ) and a ZT60 , gave a slight edge in PQ to the Kuro ,kURO ALSO HAD slightly lower MLL , there were some areas the ZT60 was clearly better .
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post #42 of 149 Old 04-11-2013, 03:17 PM
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Sorry for posting this again but 

 

Panasonic ceased plasma developement
PANASONIC CONFIRMS EXIT FROM PLASMA TVS 
By Rasmus Larsen
11 Apr 2013
 

Panasonic’s Vice President of the TV division confirms to The Verge that Panasonic has ceased plasma development. Sales will continue into 2014 at the very least but OLED is the future for Panasonic.

PANASONIC CONFIRMS EXIT FROM PLASMA TVS

The first rumors about Panasonic's exit from plasma TVs surfaced in December 2012 and in March 2013 it was reported that plasma developement has stopped.

Panasonic Display Vice President Kiyoshi Okamoto now confirms the rumors. He says that plasma development has stopped and that the 2013 plasma TVs that are appearing in stores use Panasonic’s “last plasma panel”.

Panasonic ZT60
Panasonic has ceased plasma development but sales will continue into 2014 at the very least


He stresses that Panasonic will continue production and sales. The current 2013 line-up will be sold into 2014 at the very least, he says.

With Panasonic’s decision to exit from plasma TVs, an era ends. Panasonic’s plasma TVs have been recognized and applauded as the best TVs available by many experts in recent years. The 2013 models and the ZT60 flagship will be the last and best ever from the Japanese TV manufacturer.

OLED IS PANASONIC'S FUTURE

Panasonic will instead focus on OLED technology for TVs. Kiyoshi Okamoto says that Panasonic has already moved several plasma engineers to the OLED division.

“OLED is one of the key future products” he says.

Panasonics 4K OLED-TV
Panasonic unveiled this 4K OLED-TV at CES


However, he offers no further details regarding OLED-TVs from Panasonic. Panasonic unveiled its first OLED-TV with the56" 4K OLED TV at CES 2013 back in January but no plans to sell the TV has been announced.

Source: The Verge
 
"This is the end"  Now when can I get my 4K OLED 65" for $4,000 2015 maybe?
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post #43 of 149 Old 04-11-2013, 04:36 PM
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In thinking about this announcement, I do recall at last year's shootout that the fact that Panasonic had decided to not spend any further monies on plasma R & D was discussed by the industry folks, although on the QT. Therefore, after having a few hours to mull this over, this really wasn't new news. They didn't say that they were exiting the plasma business, only that the 2013 line was the top level of performance that they would produce, spending all of their R & D money on OLED. However, the clear import is that once or should I say if, Panasonic figures out how to make a viable 4K OLED display, plasma is a gonner. Therefore, I would not expect a total exit from the business until 2015.

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post #44 of 149 Old 04-11-2013, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWhip View Post

In thinking about this announcement, I do recall at last year's shootout that the fact that Panasonic had decided to not spend any further monies on plasma R & D was discussed by the industry folks, although on the QT. Therefore, after having a few hours to mull this over, this really wasn't new news. They didn't say that they were exiting the plasma business, only that the 2013 line was the top level of performance that they would produce, spending all of their R & D money on OLED. However, the clear import is that once or should I say if, Panasonic figures out how to make a viable 4K OLED display, plasma is a gonner. Therefore, I would not expect a total exit from the business until 2015.

He says that plasma development has stopped and that the 2013 plasma TVs that are appearing in stores use Panasonic’s “last plasma panel”.

This to me, perhaps I am understanding differently or trying to do it with only one eye open but it's there "last plasma panel". So infact this seems to me like it's done. ZT60 will be the best of what they ever made. Plasma is over .....RIP
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post #45 of 149 Old 04-11-2013, 08:25 PM
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An 80" 4K OLED is the holy grail i'm waiting for. smile.gif

Do it Panasonic.

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post #46 of 149 Old 04-11-2013, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post


The Kuro did not have reddish blacks, please understand that the photos which revealed that hue were extreme over-exposures. Both TVs exhibited deep blacks that looked proper and neutral to the human eye. The intention of the photos was to reveal the levels of gradation rendered in the deepest shadows. There is no perfect, neutral black in the world of HDTVs, at least not until OLED is available in stores. Plasma TVs will always exhibit some sort of color cast in their supposed "pure black" if photographed in this manner.

I'll disagree with you there and I mentioned it in my recap of what I saw. To the naked eye I saw the Kuro as having a definite reddish tinge to its blacks. It was particularly obvious in both a fade to black as well as in comparison to the neutral blacks of the ZT.
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post #47 of 149 Old 04-11-2013, 09:59 PM - Thread Starter
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I'll disagree with you there and I mentioned it in my recap of what I saw. To the naked eye I saw the Kuro as having a definite reddish tinge to its blacks. It was particularly obvious in both a fade to black as well as in comparison to the neutral blacks of the ZT.

I agree there was a red bias to that Kuro's blacks. I did not mean to imply there was nothing there. I wanted to clarify that the tone seen in my over-exposed photos is nothing like what we saw at the demo, that's all. I also agree, in that comparison the Kuro's deepest black was not as dark as the ZT60's - my camera captured both those effects. I go not agree that the ZT60 was neutral, I think the ZT60 had slightly cold/blueish blacks. I did not think either effect was all that pronounced on either TV. For what it's worth, the Samsung f8500 came the closest I have seen to a true neutral gray/black tone. 

 

EDIT - OK clearly there are threads that dealt with the red tint when it started to pop up as an issue. So, should that Kuro should have been identified as defective or flawed?

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post #48 of 149 Old 04-11-2013, 10:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by saprano View Post

Here's how a kuro really performs-

https://www.avsforum.com/t/1452697/where-is-my-our-kuro-replacement/330#post_22970738

Come on guys. You should know better than this. I shouldn't have to dig out information to prove my point.

Those pictures you linked to don't capture the blacks. They are "blocked up", so to speak - no detail in the shadows - but that doesn't invalidate your point. I looked at shots of a number of other Kuro screens and found them to be neutral. Then I found the "official" reddish tint thread here on AVS by doing a simple Google search. 

 

For what it's worth, here's the same treatment applied to an image from the Kuro that was at the Panasonic show. It's pretty darned easy to make a color-correct, dynamic-looking picture out of it. 

 

Photo of screen—Kuro at Panasonic event, NYC 2013 - photo by Mark Henninger

 

 

 

Here's the source file:

 

 

 

 

 


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post #49 of 149 Old 04-12-2013, 04:38 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

There is a significant gap between the ZT60 and the VT50, in terms of image quality. The ZT60 is totally competitive with the Kuro.

Exactly the same thing Pana and its supporters said about the jump from the VT30 to the VT50 and it was practically a non-existent improvement.
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An 80" 4K OLED is the holy grail i'm waiting for. smile.gif

Do it Panasonic.

80" ??? Screw that I'm waiting for the 95" 4K
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And it better be a touchscreen for computer work as well.

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post #52 of 149 Old 04-12-2013, 06:37 AM
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I was sold on replacing my calibrated pioneer 6010 (living room tv) with the zt60, but after hearing Panasonic is shagging ass from plasmas next year makes me want to wait.

I was also looking for something to eventually replace my calibrated 151fd (media room tv) but it looks like I'll hsve to wait. It only gets used about 10-15 hours a week so its got a lot of life left.
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post #53 of 149 Old 04-12-2013, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Sorry for posting this again but 

 

Panasonic ceased plasma developement
PANASONIC CONFIRMS EXIT FROM PLASMA TVS 
By Rasmus Larsen
11 Apr 2013
 

Panasonic’s Vice President of the TV division confirms to The Verge that Panasonic has ceased plasma development. Sales will continue into 2014 at the very least but OLED is the future for Panasonic.
 

We also posted this story here:

 

https://www.avsforum.com/t/1467860/panasonic-pulls-plug-on-plasma-progress-zt60-marks-end-of-era

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post #54 of 149 Old 04-12-2013, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View PostWe also posted this story here: https://www.avsforum.com/t/1467860/panasonic-pulls-plug-on-plasma-progress-zt60-marks-end-of-era

Great thank you, great site by the way :)

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post #55 of 149 Old 04-13-2013, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

Yeah. The brightness is wrong on the kuro. They should of got a brand new panel from pioneer and calibrated it or just calibrated the one they had.
Yes ...

Mo Kuro G9 2009 well set with deep blacks and no visible color magenta :

p1190891_1.jpg

wink.gif

Pioneer LX 5090H + Démo G5  C+ Csat HD + DD et la TNT + Pioneer LX58 + Sony BD-S790 ... Pana 50 ST60 + PS3 BD + Pioneer BD320 ... CRT Philips 32 PW 9520 P+2 DNM + TNT Thomson DTI 652 + Pioneer DV 380 ... BR 137 .
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p1190907_1.jpg

cool.gif

Pioneer LX 5090H + Démo G5  C+ Csat HD + DD et la TNT + Pioneer LX58 + Sony BD-S790 ... Pana 50 ST60 + PS3 BD + Pioneer BD320 ... CRT Philips 32 PW 9520 P+2 DNM + TNT Thomson DTI 652 + Pioneer DV 380 ... BR 137 .
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p1190906_1.jpg

cool.gif

Pioneer LX 5090H + Démo G5  C+ Csat HD + DD et la TNT + Pioneer LX58 + Sony BD-S790 ... Pana 50 ST60 + PS3 BD + Pioneer BD320 ... CRT Philips 32 PW 9520 P+2 DNM + TNT Thomson DTI 652 + Pioneer DV 380 ... BR 137 .
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post #58 of 149 Old 04-13-2013, 06:29 AM
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Urga,

What movie(s) are those screenshots from?
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Originally Posted by jjkusaf1 View Post

Urga,

What movie(s) are those screenshots from?

1er : To Catch a Thief

2eme et 3eme : IV Pirates Fountain of Youth ... wink.gif

Pioneer LX 5090H + Démo G5  C+ Csat HD + DD et la TNT + Pioneer LX58 + Sony BD-S790 ... Pana 50 ST60 + PS3 BD + Pioneer BD320 ... CRT Philips 32 PW 9520 P+2 DNM + TNT Thomson DTI 652 + Pioneer DV 380 ... BR 137 .
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post #60 of 149 Old 04-13-2013, 07:05 AM
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My kuro no color faded, but saturated :

p1190942.jpg
p1190943.jpg

Images on Sat Astra HDTV ...

Pioneer LX 5090H + Démo G5  C+ Csat HD + DD et la TNT + Pioneer LX58 + Sony BD-S790 ... Pana 50 ST60 + PS3 BD + Pioneer BD320 ... CRT Philips 32 PW 9520 P+2 DNM + TNT Thomson DTI 652 + Pioneer DV 380 ... BR 137 .
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