DTS:X Immersive Sound Format Due March 2015 - Page 11 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #301 of 3265 Old 01-07-2015, 08:15 PM
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Lol who are we all kidding, ourselves? We love new gear and upgrading receivers and whatnot... It's the whole reason we roam a forum like this.

I would bet most in this thread could easily afford any upgrades if they really wanted them. The only thing holding most of us back are the release of the "right" features and codecs and the lack of content.

On another note, Object oriented is NOT about simple multichannel but instead the ability to steer to any channels that you have in whatever locations they may be.

This requires processor power ... Period. I am not a fan of the way most of the initial processors have been implemented with specific channel/speaker location requirements. It's nonsense like this that makes for a more complicated customer experience that will keep masses from adopting.

Basically the mainstream makers of receivers need a major paradigm shift in the way they make equipment. True "pc grade" processors or a processor similar to what iphones have would be very capable. They do it right ... And I wouldn't be hesitating to buy their stuff.

Comments about some demo setups sounding "harsh" are interesting. Trinnov's setup was accused of being too harsh for example. There could be any number of reasons for this but it is quite possible that they were simply playing too loud while trying to compensate for lack of bass. It's hard to setup those demos corrrectly for bass response. Perhaps the room wasn't setup with enough absorption and diffusion? Perhaps some folks aren't used to listening to horn loaded compression drivers at short range? Whatever the reason its a shame they couldn't setup better than they did.

There is nothing specific to atmos technology that would automatically make some soundtrack sound "harsh". The theater setups have not had this problem that I am aware of.
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post #302 of 3265 Old 01-07-2015, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliRaftDude View Post
Wow.. talk about poaching your own sales, that makes darn near zero sense. Very poor engineering and execution imho.. seems if you had a decent BizDev department you would engineer a solution so that the day DTS:X was released you could upgrade that SR7009.. and announce that right now at CES to get a bump in Q1 sales.

<facepalm>

Well - one of those will NOT be sitting in my HT for a while, I can guarantee you that.

Thanks for the info ~ just what I was looking for last week.
Unfortunately it makes perfect engineering sense for many reasons.
1) the circuit layout and all the analyses were probably already done or almost complete when the DTS:x chipset was announced. So reworking everything to incorporate DTS:x would waste a ton of Engineering budget and time

2) the auro-3d update is $200 and is just a software download. Updating an avr to DTS:x would require an additional chip (or two). Thus a board would need to be replaced (since being able to just add a board would require it to be well thought out ahead of time ~6 months earlier & most likely not in the cards) and would probably cost about $400+. Add in labor and your probably at $500+. How many people do you think would shell out $500+ just to upgrade an avr?

3) their business model is to make money by having you upgrade and maximize profits. Unfortunately this is how it goes. After two years you don't go to verizon wireless and ask them to upgrade the software or a chip on your phone. You sign a new 2-year agreement and buy a new phone.

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post #303 of 3265 Old 01-07-2015, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWavePro View Post
As far as content goes I was handed the DTS 2015 demo disc
Ok...I'm jealous. I always wanted those wonderful DTS demo discs but refuse to buy one on eBay for $20+ when they give them out for free at special events line CES

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post #304 of 3265 Old 01-07-2015, 08:57 PM
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The DTS press release says manufacturers representing nearly 90% of the home AV receiver and surround sound market have agreed to launch products supporting DTS:X in 2015.
My view is there will be significant studio support to have such a high percentage of manufacturers - tick tock till the official launch in March.
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post #305 of 3265 Old 01-07-2015, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orbitron View Post
The DTS press release says manufacturers representing nearly 90% of the home AV receiver and surround sound market have agreed to launch products supporting DTS:X in 2015.
My view is there will be significant studio support to have such a high percentage of manufacturers - tick tock till the official launch in March.

The industry does like the open source model DTS MDA represents. Dolby may have painted themselves into a corner by making Atmos too proprietary.
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Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!
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post #306 of 3265 Old 01-07-2015, 09:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWavePro View Post
As far as content goes I was handed the DTS 2015 demo disc which had :
Between zero and one
Divergent
Locked up
The Olympians
Pinniped eps
Rio 2


All in DTS:X format. The DTS rep also told me that they already have movies being mastered in dtsx, but just like Atmos it's up to the studios to implement those surround formats onto the bluray.
None of those titles above seem to be appetizing. ...I'll pass, on all six of them.
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post #307 of 3265 Old 01-07-2015, 09:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
So, from that list we have Summit Entertainment, 20th Century Fox, Dreamworks, and ??
- Soundscribe Studios (Elefant Films) / ApK
- Lionsgate Films
- TLA Releasing (TLA Entertainment Group)

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post #308 of 3265 Old 01-07-2015, 09:34 PM
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On the Bluray disc front, do people think it's possible to fit Atmos and DTS:X on the same Bluray? or is it more likely the following will occur?
a) Bluray disc title without Atmos and without DTS:X
b) Bluray disc title with Atmos but no DTS:X
c) Bluray disc title with DTS:X but no Atmos
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post #309 of 3265 Old 01-07-2015, 09:37 PM
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Not sure I buy that entirely - although until we know specifically what the requirements and design needs are its speculation, at least on my part.. but:

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Originally Posted by Pioneer_Elte View Post
1) the circuit layout and all the analyses were probably already done or almost complete when the DTS:x chipset was announced. So reworking everything to incorporate DTS:x would waste a ton of Engineering budget and time
Seems to me a good BD department in an industry that only has a handful of entities writing major specifications for your equipment would have a pretty tight relationship with said entities and would have some advance notice of these initiatives. Maybe I am naive here.

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Originally Posted by Pioneer_Elte View Post
2) the auro-3d update is $200 and is just a software download. Updating an avr to DTS:x would require an additional chip (or two). Thus a board would need to be replaced (since being able to just add a board would require it to be well thought out ahead of time ~6 months earlier & most likely not in the cards) and would probably cost about $400+. Add in labor and your probably at $500+. How many people do you think would shell out $500+ just to upgrade an avr?
A lot more than would want to shell out $2000 for the same thing + DTS:X. I remember the DD/DTS mess.. and again, this is considering you need a lot of extra processing or couldn't just engineer a better general purpose engine. Again, maybe I am naive here.

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3) their business model is to make money by having you upgrade and maximize profits. Unfortunately this is how it goes. After two years you don't go to verizon wireless and ask them to upgrade the software or a chip on your phone. You sign a new 2-year agreement and buy a new phone.
That's not an engineering plan, that's a marketing/sales plan and not a very good one if, especially given that someone a few posts ago is already going to return his equipment and wait for what he really wanted.

Maybe I don't get the home audio market as well as you do - but that seems... shoddy.
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post #310 of 3265 Old 01-07-2015, 09:49 PM
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2015 Theatrical Releases - perhaps Taken 3 from 20th Century Fox is a DTS:X Blu-ray.
http://www.darkhorizons.com/dates/films/2015
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post #311 of 3265 Old 01-07-2015, 09:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WynsWrld98 View Post
On the Bluray disc front, do people think it's possible to fit Atmos and DTS:X on the same Bluray?
That just won't happen.


Quote:
or is it more likely the following will occur?
a) Bluray disc title without Atmos and without DTS:X
b) Bluray disc title with Atmos but no DTS:X
c) Bluray disc title with DTS:X but no Atmos
All three of them.
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post #312 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 12:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliRaftDude View Post
Wow.. talk about poaching your own sales, that makes darn near zero sense. Very poor engineering and execution imho.. seems if you had a decent BizDev department you would engineer a solution so that the day DTS:X was released you could upgrade that SR7009.. and announce that right now at CES to get a bump in Q1 sales.

<facepalm>

Well - one of those will NOT be sitting in my HT for a while, I can guarantee you that.

Thanks for the info ~ just what I was looking for last week.
As much as I hate this development, I can also see that it's hard to plan ahead for new technology.
Just as the Denon 4311 was almost everything I wanted except for the DTS Neo-X, I took the bite and upgraded to the 4520 - especially since I got a good price for the older amp.

These couple of years will see a lot of change as one development rolls out after another.

From their perspective, it's easier to roll out a new '2015' amp with DTS-X than to offer a firmware upgrade for free. Doesn't make financial sense.

Caveat emptor I say... and it's heady times to buy with so much tech moving in.

If you are not in a hurry, buy that amp in Autumn or Winter of 2015.
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post #313 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 12:36 AM
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Caveat emptor I say... and it's heady times to buy with so much tech moving in.
If you are not in a hurry, buy that amp in Autumn or Winter of 2015.
Agreed - to be honest, I wasn't even in the market until my existing equipment needed service a few weeks ago... so I am planning for worst case. I would rather invest in a new display which would be a quantum jump for me right now - I guess I will see how it goes.

Cheers~
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post #314 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 01:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WynsWrld98 View Post
On the Bluray disc front, do people think it's possible to fit Atmos and DTS:X on the same Bluray? or is it more likely the following will occur?
a) Bluray disc title without Atmos and without DTS:X
b) Bluray disc title with Atmos but no DTS:X
c) Bluray disc title with DTS:X but no Atmos
My guess would be with audio taking up such little room on the disc, and with the advent of triple sided 4K discs next year. The studios would have no problem putting both DTS and Dolby immersive formats on discs just as they've done before. though I'm sure that most everyone here has recognized that very seldom do we get that treat on discs, it's usually one or the other.
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post #315 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 01:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Pioneer_Elte View Post
Ok...I'm jealous. I always wanted those wonderful DTS demo discs but refuse to buy one on eBay for $20+ when they give them out for free at special events line CES
Just come out here next year then! Drink, party, and collect some demo discs.
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post #316 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 01:28 AM
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As far as content goes I was handed the DTS 2015 demo disc which had :
Between zero and one
Divergent
Locked up
The Olympians
Pinniped eps
Rio 2

All in DTS:X format. The DTS rep also told me that they already have movies being mastered in dtsx, but just like Atmos it's up to the studios to implement those surround formats onto the bluray.
Interesting, as some of these were neither mixed in Atmos nor in Auro for the cinema. Were they already 'secretly' mixed in DTS:X by the director or were they somehow upmixed by the studio?
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post #317 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 02:06 AM
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Interesting, as some of these were neither mixed in Atmos nor in Auro for the cinema. Were they already 'secretly' mixed in DTS:X by the director or were they somehow upmixed by the studio?

It seems to me that the "future TV rerun value" of a new movie might be maximized by (today) ensuring that an 'object-based mix for TV' is among the movie's finished sound mixes (MPEG-H 3D audio is apparently planned to support no more than 4 simultaneous objects for broadcasting). So it may well pay to execute the movie's original sound mix as object-based, even if no object-based initial theatrical release is contemplated.


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post #318 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 02:08 AM
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My guess is you are right with a "secret" DTS:X mix made by the studio, but more than likely it was after the Atmos mix had already gone to the cinema. Presently DTS:X is not available in anyway. It's DTS-HDMA or soon DTS-MDA but no DTS:X yet. They still haven't released the codec to processors for the theaters either.
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post #319 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 02:22 AM
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by SWavePro View Post
As far as content goes I was handed the DTS 2015 demo disc which had :
Between zero and one
Divergent
Locked up
The Olympians
Pinniped eps
Rio 2

All in DTS:X format. The DTS rep also told me that they already have movies being mastered in dtsx, but just like Atmos it's up to the studios to implement those surround formats onto the bluray.
When you say in DTS:X format, do you mean that these film extracts are encoded on this DTS Demo Disk with a specific encoding format, needing a specific Bluray player to be read?

Or are these titles encoded in DTS-MA (for example), so today they can be read by any actual Bluray player reading this format. And then if the processor has a DTS:X decoding capacity, it can so extract, decode and play the DTS:X complementary information?

In other words can you watch these DTS:X encoded titles with your current Bluray player and reproduce the sound with a DTS-MA capable processor? If so, how do you rate the sound results that can be obtained with a DTS Neo X (or DSU if equipped) processing of these same titles?

Many thks for your answer,

Hugo
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post #320 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 03:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pioneer_Elte View Post
Updating an avr to DTS:x would require an additional chip (or two). Thus a board would need to be replaced (since being able to just add a board would require it to be well thought out ahead of time ~6 months earlier & most likely not in the cards) and would probably cost about $400+. Add in labor and your probably at $500+. How many people do you think would shell out $500+ just to upgrade an avr?
It sounded differently in that D & M product manager quote posted in the Denon 5200 thread, but that was a few months ago (now almost sounds like like "We (DTS) have changed our overall strategy and pray that we don't alter it any further")

For the upcoming Denon flagship AVR and the Marantz flagship pre-amp it would be nice to combine a DTS:X upgrade with the HDCP 2.2 upgrade, which I believe won't be happening (both) before Summer 2015.

In general, no offense, I'm somewhat entertained by the conclusions some posters are jumping to regarding DTS:X. The press release from December 30 tells us little to nothing about the actual road map DTS has in mind, and the AVR manufacturers commitment statement ("2015") could be a deliberate attempt to derail Dolby's momentum and put it to pause (which is exactly what's happening now regarding hardware purchase decisions)

Considering we are within a niché of a niché consumer segment, I don't believe, yet, that titles that have not been mixed for DTS:X theatrical release (i.e. older ones) will actually be remixed / redesigned just for Blu-ray home video entertainment.

And if DTS:X requires a processor of its own, how will this reflect in hardware prices? I'd like to think that manufacturers will be forced to offer both DTS:X and Dolby Atmos.

Right now, I'm really and only interested to hear what kind of solid and reliable information DTS is willing to share with us at CES. All we have heard thus far is "We are coming to the immersive sound party, too" but actually with no useful information when exactly and how.

"It is only about things that do not interest one that one can give a really unbiased opinion, which is no doubt the reason why an unbiased opinion is always absolutely valueless." Oscar Wilde

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post #321 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 03:32 AM
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It will be interesting to see what DTS will bring to the table but I have to say so far Auro 3D has me the most convinced. 2015 is going to be an interesting year for sure!
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post #322 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 03:33 AM
 
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If we would have all the info right now, most wise people would wait before wasting their money on less equipped products.
But it is also excellent for other people wanting a huge discount on the first gen Dolby Atmos receivers, soon that the second gen with added dts:X is known to be coming up.

It's a business strategy, a common accord between several players. ...It's like a hockey tournament. ...The Stanley Cup is only @ the end of the final series.
No one wants to share the insider info, unless you have your own insiders/stock brokers doing the research for you. ...It's a market, a business strategy.

I think we should all get a JBL Synthesis sound system.

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post #323 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 03:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWavePro View Post
My guess would be with audio taking up such little room on the disc, and with the advent of triple sided 4K discs next year. The studios would have no problem putting both DTS and Dolby immersive formats on discs just as they've done before. though I'm sure that most everyone here has recognized that very seldom do we get that treat on discs, it's usually one or the other.
Yes l imagine we will be paying 50-60 dollars a disc if that happens.

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post #324 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 03:40 AM
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This whole Auro3D-Atmos-DTS:X hardware roll out is becoming shambolic and is probably going to be miles worse than when Betamax-VHS, HDdvd- Blu-ray etc etc slogged it out and arguably the best formats lost and the consumer was left holding the hardware baby.

Then we had HD televisions being sold as HDready buyers being suckered unaware that they were only 720P changing again to 1080P
Now 4K Tv with no content and the format spec hasn't even been finalised yet.

Dolby have produced Atmos but have given the hardware companies free reign on how to implement it in their systems
They only seem interested in the licence fee instead of a premium product and ensuring the finished product is up to an certain standard as in THX products, I mean are all DSU's born equal, are all the AVR using the same processing power with some to spare?

Some mention waiting for HDCP 2.2 as if it was the end all and be all, how many threads will start discussing its performance, or lack of, and how you now have to have A_B_C to get it to work.

As said many times the greatest percentage of consumers aren't interested,don't care, don't see the difference with HD video and would rather have sound bars.

The studios/distributors will decide which format become de-facto not the enthusiast
The market sees streaming as the future so actual media might well disappear.

OK had to get it out of my system rant over
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post #325 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 03:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesmor View Post
This whole Auro3D-Atmos-DTS:X hardware roll out is becoming shambolic and is probably going to be miles worse than when Betamax-VHS, HDdvd- Blu-ray etc etc slogged it out and arguably the best formats lost and the consumer was left holding the hardware baby.
Indeed, it brings back unpleasant memories of VHS vs. Betamax vs. Video 2000 (the European competitor). I'm afraid Auro-3D (the European competitor) will suffer the same premature fate as Video 2000 did.

Quote:
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Dolby have produced Atmos but have given the hardware companies free reign on how to implement it in their systems
They only seem interested in the licence fee instead of a premium product and ensuring the finished product is up to an certain standard as in THX products, I mean are all DSU's born equal, are all the AVR using the same processing power with some to spare?
Frankly, Dolby is providing detailed Dolby Atmos speaker setup guidelines and helpful information on their website.

In contrast, go to DTS' website and try to find their DTS-HD speaker setup guidelines. I had to use Google to find their DTS-HD brochure which has plenty of variations, but no helpful information about speaker heights. Which setup would confirm to reference standards, the illustrations wouldn't tell.

I really wonder if DTS is going to fix that for DTS:X.

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post #326 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 04:12 AM
 
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Maybe dts:X is just a copycat.
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post #327 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 04:15 AM
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There's hope to learn more today from DTS.

The "Hi-Res Audio Power Panel" takes place between 2.15-3 pm at the CES.

After that we hopefully do know a lot more.

"It is only about things that do not interest one that one can give a really unbiased opinion, which is no doubt the reason why an unbiased opinion is always absolutely valueless." Oscar Wilde
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post #328 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 04:17 AM
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by SWavePro View Post
As far as content goes I was handed the DTS 2015 demo disc which had :
Between zero and one
Divergent
Locked up
The Olympians
Pinniped eps
Rio 2

All in DTS:X format. The DTS rep also told me that they already have movies being mastered in dtsx, but just like Atmos it's up to the studios to implement those surround formats onto the bluray.
When you say in DTS:X format, do you mean that these film extracts are encoded on this DTS Demo Disk with a specific encoding format, needing a specific Bluray player to be read?

Or are these titles encoded in DTS-MA (for example), so today they can be read by any actual Bluray player reading this format. And then if the processor has a DTS:X decoding capacity, it can so extract, decode and play the DTS:X complementary information?

In other words can you watch these DTS:X encoded titles with your current Bluray player and reproduce the sound with a DTS-MA capable processor? If so, how do you rate the sound results that can be obtained with a DTS Neo X processing of these same titles?

Many thks for your answer,

Hugo
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post #329 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 04:17 AM
 
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post #330 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 04:30 AM
 
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Bonjour Hugo,

From what I've read; yes, they are dts:X encoded, but can be read by any BD player (bitstream) and then decoded by a dts:X decoder chip inside an AV receiver or/and SSP (multichannel pre/pro).

Not DTS-HD MA. ...See below, highlighted in red.

♦ Brief; it is a dts:X demo disc with six various cuts from films and others, encoded in dts:X, and has to be decoded by a receiver or SSP having a dts:X decoder chip, and from being played by any Blu-ray player, when using the HDMI connection, and the audio signal out sent in bitstream form.
{Same exact thing as Dolby Atmos.}

That's my read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugo S View Post
Hi,

When you say in DTS:X format, do you mean that these film extracts are encoded on this DTS Demo Disk with a specific encoding format, needing a specific Bluray player to be read?

Or are these titles encoded in DTS-MA (for example), so today they can be read by any actual Bluray player reading this format.
If the processor has a DTS:X decoding capacity, it can so extract, decode and play the DTS:X complementary information.

In other words can you watch these DTS:X encoded titles with your current Bluray player and reproduce the sound with a DTS-MA capable processor? If so, how do you rate the sound results that can be obtained with a DTS Neo X processing of these same titles?

Many thks for your answer,

Hugo
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