DTS:X Immersive Sound Format Due March 2015 - Page 12 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #331 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 04:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Frank714 View Post
Frankly, Dolby is providing detailed Dolby Atmos speaker setup guidelines and helpful information on their website.
Very true but DTS hasn't provided anything other than more details will be released.

Dolby on the other hand have given manufacturers the whole package ( For a licence fee) but left it up to them to decide how they want to implement it into a product.

Now without detail we could argue it is just how many speakers to use but that's just speculation.

What we see now could just be Atmos in its the most basic form leaving manufacturers the option of a upgrade path and premium version at a later date.
i.e. measured speaker position ,better algorithms,faster processing power etc.
Edit: What I'm getting at is,as it is open ended are all 1st gen AVR implementing Atmos the same way
The same chips, algorithms processing power?
There seems to be mixed reports on Atmos sounds and how it is using the Top speakers.
I would imagine all DSU's to be the same as users agree it is the best feauture.

If they had told manufacturers that it had to be implemented to a standard to get the licence, sans THX, then I would feel more comfortable that all Dolby Atmos AVR's were born equal.

Obviously I am just playing devils advocate

Last edited by Lesmor; 01-08-2015 at 06:06 AM. Reason: added text
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post #332 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 05:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Frank714 View Post
It sounded differently in that D & M product manager quote posted in the Denon 5200 thread, but that was a few months ago (now almost sounds like like "We (DTS) have changed our overall strategy and pray that we don't alter it any further")
My assumption of a new chip would be needed was based off a few articles I remember reading that said "Additional manufacturer partners will be announced in the coming months. DTS:X solutions are also available for leading 2015 AV receiver silicon platforms representing the majority of the DSP platform market share, including Cirrus Logic, Analog Devices and Texas Instruments."

Maybe the more recent AVRs don't have enough head room in the circuitry to accommodate the additional processing required. I still don't believe it will be a simple & free firmware update. The Atmos update was free because they probably were 85%-95% done with the Atmos coding when the release date came, and probably disabled that portion of the code until they finished it a few weeks later.

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Originally Posted by CaliRaftDude View Post
Seems to me a good BD department in an industry that only has a handful of entities writing major specifications for your equipment would have a pretty tight relationship with said entities and would have some advance notice of these initiatives. Maybe I am naive here.
They probably did get advanced notice (before Dec. 2014), but it came too late in the development cycle or wasn't fully laid out enough to include (or plan for a future firmware update due to lack of specifics) in the release schedule.


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post #333 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Pioneer_Elte View Post
Maybe the more recent AVRs have enough head room in the circuitry to accommodate the additional processing required. I still don't believe it will be a simple & free firmware update. The Atmos update was free because they probably were 85%-95% done with the Atmos coding when the release date came, and probably disabled that portion of the code until they finished it a few weeks later.
That (emphasis bold) was what I had taken / understood from that Denon production manager quote (sorry, I don't have the time digging for it).

He had also said that the Auro-3D upgrade would cost extra (which is precisely what happened), but the DTS UHD (i.e. DTS:X) upgrade would probably be free.

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post #334 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Frank714 View Post
That (emphasis bold) was what I had taken / understood from that Denon production manager quote (sorry, I don't have the time digging for it).

He had also said that the Auro-3D upgrade would cost extra (which is precisely what happened), but the DTS UHD (i.e. DTS:X) upgrade would probably be free.
Sorry, meant to type don't have enough headroom. That's what you get for typing before finishing the morning coffee.
I think DTS threw the news out to put a damper on Dolby Atmos and put some doubt in the minds of people who care to hold off a few months until the DTS:X release. Unfortunately it's evident that DTS doesn't have everything figured out except that they want to compete with Atmos and ruin the party.

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post #335 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 06:07 AM
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Bonjour Robert,

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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Bonjour Hugo,

From what I've read; yes, they are dts:X encoded, but can be read by any BD player (bitstream) and then decoded by a dts:X decoder chip inside an AV receiver or/and SSP (multichannel pre/pro).

Not DTS-HD MA. ...See below, highlighted in red.

♦ Brief; it is a dts:X demo disc with six various cuts from films and others, encoded in dts:X, and has to be decoded by a receiver or SSP having a dts:X decoder chip, and from being played by any Blu-ray player, when using the HDMI connection, and the audio signal out sent in bitstream form.
{Same exact thing as Dolby Atmos.}

That's my read.
Merci for your own understanding of the quoted context. Now IMHO, what we really need here is to stop with endless speculations and have a real and true confirmation.

So as a test shouldn't be too difficult to perform by anybody having the DTS:X disk, let's simply wait for what the person who made the test, can say on the matter.

Hugo
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post #336 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 06:14 AM
 
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Ok.
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post #337 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugo S View Post
Bonjour Robert,







Merci for your own understanding of the quoted context. Now IMHO, what we really need here is to stop with endless speculations and have a real and true confirmation.



So as a test shouldn't be too difficult to perform by anybody having the DTS:X disk, let's simply wait for what the person who made the test, can say on the matter.



Hugo

I'll give my disc a try late Friday or Saturday when I get home on both 5.1 & 7.1 systems...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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post #338 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by petetherock View Post
These couple of years will see a lot of change as one development rolls out after another.
Indeed, the last 6-8 years has been relatively stable by comparison: video up to 8-bit 1080p, audio up to 8 channels of lossless. Those capabilities haven't really changed since BD was introduced. Now we've got a trifecta of change occurring almost simultaneously in audio, video and connectivity. Like a perfect storm.
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post #339 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Indeed, the last 6-8 years has been relatively stable by comparison: video up to 8-bit 1080p, audio up to 8 channels of lossless. Those capabilities haven't really changed since BD was introduced. Now we've got a trifecta of change occurring almost simultaneously in audio, video and connectivity. Like a perfect storm.
Well put sdurani
Perfect storm sums it up
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post #340 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Hugo S View Post
Hi,



When you say in DTS:X format, do you mean that these film extracts are encoded on this DTS Demo Disk with a specific encoding format, needing a specific Bluray player to be read?

Or are these titles encoded in DTS-MA (for example), so today they can be read by any actual Bluray player reading this format. And then if the processor has a DTS:X decoding capacity, it can so extract, decode and play the DTS:X complementary information?

In other words can you watch these DTS:X encoded titles with your current Bluray player and reproduce the sound with a DTS-MA capable processor? If so, how do you rate the sound results that can be obtained with a DTS Neo X processing of these same titles?

Many thks for your answer,

Hugo
From what I've heard on these discs, the sound is great! The DTS:X decoding works just as Atmos as far as backwards capatibility. Right now of course there are no DTS:X decoder son the market, so the best we can get is DTS-HDMA 7.1. Which can be played by any bluray player(always update your firmware) and any DTS-HDMA capable receiver.

I did find out; however that DTS:X will work in principle the same way Atmos does. With using a 7.1 surround channel "bed" and adding objects with metadata to that bed. That being said DTS:X will be fully backwards capatible just as Atmos is all the way back to 5.1 channel decoding.
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post #341 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by SWavePro View Post
My guess would be with audio taking up such little room on the disc, and with the advent of triple sided 4K discs next year. The studios would have no problem putting both DTS and Dolby immersive formats on discs just as they've done before. though I'm sure that most everyone here has recognized that very seldom do we get that treat on discs, it's usually one or the other.
Nope. It'll be one or the other (Atmos or DTS-X), just like it is now with TrueHD or Master Audio. The space will be necessary if they do add HDR and a wider color space gamut, plus possibly higher frame rates, into the mix.

Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!
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post #342 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugo S View Post
Hi,



When you say in DTS:X format, do you mean that these film extracts are encoded on this DTS Demo Disk with a specific encoding format, needing a specific Bluray player to be read?

Or are these titles encoded in DTS-MA (for example), so today they can be read by any actual Bluray player reading this format. And then if the processor has a DTS:X decoding capacity, it can so extract, decode and play the DTS:X complementary information?

In other words can you watch these DTS:X encoded titles with your current Bluray player and reproduce the sound with a DTS-MA capable processor? If so, how do you rate the sound results that can be obtained with a DTS Neo X (or DSU if equipped) processing of these same titles?

Many thks for your answer,

Hugo
DTS-X is backwards compatible to regular DTS Master Audio decoders, just like Atmos is to Dolby TrueHD. After a while, they may want studios to switch over to their DTS Coreless Lossless compression version (it's like TrueHD with no lossy data included) on Ultra HD discs once the new DTS codec packages are in more devices.

Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!
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post #343 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by philipbtz View Post
It will be interesting to see what DTS will bring to the table but I have to say so far Auro 3D has me the most convinced. 2015 is going to be an interesting year for sure!
With DTS-X on the scene and with supposed Fox and Dreamworks studio support, Auro3D has nowhere to go, but down. DTS-X also has the advantage of being able to use Dolby Atmos speaker locations.
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post #344 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 09:56 AM
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In its press release DTS mentionend, that in the first release of the DTS:X renderer there will be fixed locations like in the Dolby Atmos setup. The 2nd release of the renderer, which has been talked about and anounced for the next generation AVRs already, will allow variable locations for the speakers and the DTS:X renderer will be able to adapt to and use those user specific speaker setups. This will be much more convenient compared to the current Atmos fixed locations. They will probably need mor CPU/DSP power for this constellation, not avilable yet with the current breed of AVRs.
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post #345 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by gurkey View Post
In its press release DTS mentionend, that in the first release of the DTS:X renderer there will be fixed locations like in the Dolby Atmos setup. The 2nd release of the renderer, which has been talked about and anounced for the next generation AVRs already, will allow variable locations for the speakers and the DTS:X renderer will be able to adapt to and use those user specific speaker setups. This will be much more convenient compared to the current Atmos fixed locations. They will probably need mor CPU/DSP power for this constellation, not avilable yet with the current breed of AVRs.
I could see a more limited DTS:X implementation (fixed locations mirroring Atmos and no object manipulation) on low to mid level decoders and then the Full Monty version added to high end equipment. I wonder how many speakers DTS:X will allow for: about 32 like most immersive formats bandied about at trade shows before?

Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!
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post #346 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by gurkey View Post
In its press release DTS mentionend, that in the first release of the DTS:X renderer there will be fixed locations like in the Dolby Atmos setup.
I imagine their goal is the same as first generation Atmos: just get the technology into consumer gear (within the limitations of current AVR platforms). The other stuff we were hoping to get from the new immersive formats (positional rendering, more outputs, etc) can come later.
Quote:
The 2nd release of the renderer, which has been talked about and anounced for the next generation AVRs already, will allow variable locations for the speakers and the DTS:X renderer will be able to adapt to and use those user specific speaker setups.
For current Atmos AVR owners, this might be a good excuse to skip a year (i.e., replace their Atmos AVR in 2016).

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post #347 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
I could see a more limited DTS:X implementation (fixed locations mirroring Atmos and no object manipulation) on low to mid level decoders and then the Full Monty version added to high end equipment. I wonder how many speakers DTS:X will allow for: about 32 like most immersive formats bandied about at trade shows before?

QuickQuoting(TM Harry Potter) myself from another thread...

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TWICE.com "reported" from CES 2015 that DTS CEO Jon E. Kirchner 'said' "DTS:X supports from 2.1 to 22.2 speaker configurations" and that "elevated speakers may be omitted because DTS:X includes virtual height features". The last several generations of Yamaha AVRs have included the capability to reproduce virtually the effects of front height (front presence) speakers, i.e., to generate elevated content using only a middle layer 5.1|7.1 speaker setup. It will be interesting to see if|how height speaker content simulation might work when DTS:X and Yamaha CinemaDSP capabilities are 'combined'...?! (Has anyone actually listened to Samsung|DTS Neo:Fusion II playback...?)

And of course there are 'teased' reports that DTS:X supports floor-level bottom layer speakers...?!

_
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post #348 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 11:17 AM
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If DTS:X is based on DTS-MDA which is open source, won't DTS:X be open source as well then? Could be a nice gift for the HTPC crowd if nothing else.
No, they have to make money somewhere.
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post #349 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 12:01 PM
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Reading the various responses in this thread it seems some of you are missing what object based audio delivery to the home represents. First off let me be clear that neither Dolby Atmos nor DTS:X are pure object based delivery solutions. That is they both rely on a traditional 7.1 (as you would get with Dolby THD or DTS-MA) bed for backward compatibility. The additional 'objects' are added in a backward compatible fashion so that the respective decoders can extract them from the bitstream and subsequently subtract them from the full 7.1 mix. The real benefit of an object based delivery is we are no longer tied to one definition of the optimum speaker configuration. So if you've already built your theater to the Atmos spec you'll be able to play a DTS:X disc and the DTS:X renderer will have no problem rendering to that specific speaker placement. According to DTS the first release will either have some presets or recommendations as to placement but in theory you should be free to place your additional speakers wherever you see fit. Now having this ability requires that the user either enter the location of the additional 'object' based speakers or DTS will have to provide an automated speaker location / characterization routine built into the upgraded AVR or processor. The object based renderer requires the spatial location of the additional speakers so it can make the best decisions on how to distribute the sound in order to place the object in 3D space as specified by the accompanying metadata. This feature again in theory makes your speaker placement future proof. Build your theater once with as many speakers as you can afford and practically support and then using either the Atmos decoder or the DTS:X decoder and information describing the physical location of those speakers you will presented with the optimum experience for your specific layout. Hopefully someday the entire mix could be delivered via objects thus supporting any setup from a soundbar to 44.2 with the same payload. That was the original concept.
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post #350 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 12:48 PM
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Still learning here, is there a specific placement of speakers that let's us hear the very same presentation that the sound mixer designed without any guesswork by the renderer?
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post #351 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 02:01 PM
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Still learning here, is there a specific placement of speakers that let's us hear the very same presentation that the sound mixer designed without any guesswork by the renderer?
The Dolby Atmos and Auro3D recommended home setups are pretty much miniature versions of their commercial cinema layouts. DTS, supposedly, has made MDA (the bedrock of their "X" codec) layout agnostic where an audio production company can choose whichever speaker configuration suits their needs at their dubbing stage (usually Atmos or Auro layouts... or both) and mix accordingly. Dolby and Auro have their own prescribed setups that are usually tied with licensing agreements and certification processes at the pro dubbing stage level and with the cinema chains installing their products in various large-market, premium auditoriums.

First gen (maybe even second gen) DTS:X products (mainstream, not high end) will follow fixed, recommended locations due to processing limitations in the chips most companies will choose to go with - more than likely using Dolby Atmos' prescribed layout, making Auro3D the odd man out.

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post #352 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 04:11 PM
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The Dolby Atmos and Auro3D recommended home setups are pretty much miniature versions of their commercial cinema layouts. DTS, supposedly, has made MDA (the bedrock of their "X" codec) layout agnostic where an audio production company can choose whichever speaker configuration suits their needs at their dubbing stage (usually Atmos or Auro layouts... or both) and mix accordingly. Dolby and Auro have their own prescribed setups that are usually tied with licensing agreements and certification processes at the pro dubbing stage level and with the cinema chains installing their products in various large-market, premium auditoriums.

First gen (maybe even second gen) DTS:X products (mainstream, not high end) will follow fixed, recommended locations due to processing limitations in the chips most companies will choose to go with - more than likely using Dolby Atmos' prescribed layout, making Auro3D the odd man out.
This is correct but MDA will support any configuration that the theater owner can afford. In theory this is true for DTS:X as well. The original concept was create/mix once render many. Of course in practice this becomes problematic as the speaker count drops but if you have a good system with reasonable speaker placement in a good room you should be able to closely match the original artistic intent of the mixer.
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post #353 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 04:30 PM
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Thanks, you're making my mind up for me. Kind of a no brainer for the sake of 5-6 months. Just need to find a good used Denon avr4000...
Returned the 7009. Bought a 4100. Now I only have a $1000 boat anchor (the guys at my big box store are really good to me) instead of a $2000 boat anchor. Used 4000s were going for $800ish so decided the 4100 was best best. Sure I can sell it for 50 percent of purchase price when I decide to upgrade to 2nd gen, whenever that may be 6-18 months from now when the dust settles. My only sacrifice for the grand was loss of my wides as I'll do a 5.2.4 not a 7.2.4 and DSU doesn't use wides anyway...I was tempted to do the disposable bic lighter thing with a $450 ATMOS onkyo but couldn't do it because of accu eq reports...too big a sacrifice...
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post #354 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 04:48 PM
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Maybe, because March 2015 is dts:X official launch. But as to know which manufacturer is going to be first in implementing it; that remains to be seen.
I knew that the SR7009 will NOT be dts:X upgradeable.

Here's only my own personal guess: Datasat is going to be first with dts:X ... and very possibly in March. ...From a firmware upgrade.
But receiver's manufacturers like Marantz and Denon and Integra and Onkyo and Pioneer and Yamaha are going to join in too, but later, much later.
EXCEPT! ...For the Marantz AV8802 SSP and the Denon AVR-X7200W AV receiver which should be dts:X firmware upgradeable if they are "impregnated" with that new dts:X 3D surround sound decoder chip. ...Meaning implemented with that new dts chip.

And! Comes Fall time (October or so), we might see new comers from Anthem, or McIntosh, or other audio manufacturers with dts:X inside their products.

We don't have to blind ourselves here; people who have already a Dolby Atmos receiver or pre/pro from Denon/Marantz, Onkyo/Integra, Pioneer Elite, Yamaha Aventage, ...would have to purchase another one (second generation; whenever they come) in order to decode dts:X new 3D surround sound encoded Blu-rays eventually coming up.
To expect a firmware update or upgrade from such already released products is unrealistic, and simply dreaming out-loud.

Sorry I miss quoted my own quote in the post above this one...

Returned the 7009. Bought a 4100. Now I only have a $1000 boat anchor (the guys at my big box store are really good to me) instead of a $2000 boat anchor. Used 4000s were going for $800ish so decided the 4100 was best best. Sure I can sell it for 50 percent of purchase price when I decide to upgrade to 2nd gen, whenever that may be 6-18 months from now when the dust settles. My only sacrifice for the grand was loss of my wides as I'll do a 5.2.4 not a 7.2.4 and DSU doesn't use wides anyway...I was tempted to do the disposable bic lighter thing with a $450 ATMOS onkyo but couldn't do it because of accu eq reports...too big a sacrifice...
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post #355 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by jwtracey View Post
This is correct but MDA will support any configuration that the theater owner can afford. In theory this is true for DTS:X as well. The original concept was create/mix once render many. Of course in practice this becomes problematic as the speaker count drops but if you have a good system with reasonable speaker placement in a good room you should be able to closely match the original artistic intent of the mixer.
True. DTS MDA is supposed to be mix and match to any potential layout configuration. However, they don't want a lot of extra confusion right now (the market place is already a mess of competing layouts and codecs). The safest bet is to use Atmos already chosen schematic until such time as re-mapping can be implemented properly.

Since DTS:X maxes out at 22.2 and some were hinting at ground level speaker support, I wonder if DTS didn't base their "ideal" speaker output amount and locations on the Hamasaki 22.2 system supported by NHK Broadcasting in Japan. Instant major UHDTV broadcasting support if true.

Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!
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post #356 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
*Sigh* Oh for the love ...

Remember when we had 5.1 and we bought our first AVR and that was good for like ten years or so??? When is this going to end ?
Well, I remember back in 1990 buying a Kenwood Stereo receiver and two mini advent bookshelf speakers to go with it. Was a huge, huge upgrade in sound for my video gaming (TurboGrafx-16 at the time). Playing Dungeon Explorer in true stereo, was an amazing thing.

Then, a few years later, Dolby Surround hit the scene. I got a Dolby Surround receiver, and hooked up some back speakers. I was amazed when certain games and movies featured the surround effects on the rear speakers. I remember when Hi-Fi VCR's were around, and you could rent a movie like Jurassic Park on VHS, and if you had a Dolby Surround setup, you would amaze the neighbors.

Then, we eventually got to the DVD players arriving, and having actual DTS and Dolby Digital 5.1 That was a HUGE upgrade. I got a DVD player in 1997 I think. It was a cheapo RCA for like $500 (it was a launch unit). I remember renting this movie called "Legends of the Fall". It had some AMAZING sound back in 1997 (or early 1998). I also remember renting Twister on DVD more than once because I was so impressed with the sound via the 5.1

It was a brand new experience.


Then... when Dolby Pro-Logic IIx came along, and you could have 7.1 systems, that was another huge jump. Even before we had legit 7.1, Pro-Logic IIx added a huge amount to my video gaming enjoyment. You could take a normal 5.1 soundtrack, and make it 7.1 Sure, it was fake 7.1, but it sounded damn good to me. I remember playing Bioshock in fake 7.1, and being totally amazed by it.

Then of course Dolby True HD and DTS Master audio came along, and we got legit 7.1 soundtracks.


Things always improve... it's just the nature of things.

If Dolby Atmos is as good as when Pro Logic IIx came along, then it would be worth the upgrade. Or DTS: X or whatever else. I just need the 11 channel receivers to come down a bit in price.
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post #357 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 06:22 PM
 
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post #358 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 09:06 PM
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This may give some hope that object oriented sound formats can make it into the mainstream.


http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...-pas-bar-atmos

Lowell


The MarvelAtmos Home Theater: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...e-theater.html
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post #359 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 09:19 PM
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I'm hopeful there is an Andrew Jones immersive based soundbar before long with built-in upward firing speakers.
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post #360 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 10:26 PM
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So more news from DTS and Onkyo from my conversations with reps today. I found out from an Onkyo rep that DTS will require a hardware upgrade, so all 2014 receivers will not be able to decode DTS:X, only DTS-HDMA. Not to say DTS-HDMA is garbage, but from a tech standpoint, consumers will have to buy a new receiver when DTS:X rolls out. From what I now understand from some of the DTS reps I talked with, DTS:X will work with any 5.1 up to at least a 7.2.4 Atmos setup. With the added capability to even go as far to add speakers underneath the listening position. Sounds stupid I know, but that just goes to show how flexible the format will be.

To add more fuel to the fire I also learned today while listening to an Auro 3D demo presented by ATI and Cat speakers, that Dolby and DTS are using 2 "levels" of speakers while Auro claims their surround format is better because they use 3 levels. Levels meaning horizontally aligned speakers, height speakers and ceiling speakers. Has anyone else listened to an Auro 3D demo? I personally don't think that they have the marketing edge to break into the surround format war of the big 2.
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