DTS:X Immersive Sound Format Due March 2015 - Page 13 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #361 of 3265 Old 01-08-2015, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by SWavePro View Post
So more news from DTS and Onkyo from my conversations with reps today. I found out from an Onkyo rep that DTS will require a hardware upgrade, so all 2014 receivers will not be able to decode DTS:X, only DTS-HDMA. Not to say DTS-HDMA is garbage, but from a tech standpoint, consumers will have to buy a new receiver when DTS:X rolls out. From what I now understand from some of the DTS reps I talked with, DTS:X will work with any 5.1 up to at least a 7.2.4 Atmos setup. With the added capability to even go as far to add speakers underneath the listening position. Sounds stupid I know, but that just goes to show how flexible the format will be.

To add more fuel to the fire I also learned today while listening to an Auro 3D demo presented by ATI and Cat speakers, that Dolby and DTS are using 2 "levels" of speakers while Auro claims their surround format is better because they use 3 levels. Levels meaning horizontally aligned speakers, height speakers and ceiling speakers. Has anyone else listened to an Auro 3D demo? I personally don't think that they have the marketing edge to break into the surround format war of the big 2.
At least using the demo disc from CEDIA, movies didn't seem to sound any better than 5.1, just more of it. I didn't really sense a 3D space was being created. The better Dolby Atmos clips, music video, and trailers did a much more convincing job of having sounds pan around and above me.

Field recordings of a countryside locale were quite good, however. The mono VOG speaker seemed to call attention to itself for direct pans over your head in a way that Atmos didn't... it was there in those demos, but more cohesive. The pipe organ music gave an adequate sense of scale and power, but the orchestral material sounded artificial, as if the heights had too much direct sound coming from them rather than hall ambiance like at a real concert event (an orchestra recorded from the audience perspective should sound wide in the horizontal plane, not tall like a pipe organ - but Auro doesn't have front wides).
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post #362 of 3265 Old 01-09-2015, 12:49 AM
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As I read what John Kellogg stated posted in Audioholics, he said that they (DTS) are not sure weather the blu-ray players would need a firmware upgrade or one may need a new player.


Now that said, it seems that the new players, wheather HD Blu-rays or Ultra HD coming out in fall will have the DTS-X chip inside to decode the new sound.


My question is if you run analog 7.1 would a player with DTS-X, would that player then decode the new audio codec passing it's information through the pre/pro and out to your speakers? If so then one may need only a new DTS-X capable Blu-ray player IF one runs analog thru the processor.


Can anybody chime on that.

Thanks

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post #363 of 3265 Old 01-09-2015, 01:57 AM
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Originally Posted by SWavePro View Post

To add more fuel to the fire I also learned today while listening to an Auro 3D demo presented by ATI and Cat speakers, that Dolby and DTS are using 2 "levels" of speakers while Auro claims their surround format is better because they use 3 levels. Levels meaning horizontally aligned speakers, height speakers and ceiling speakers. Has anyone else listened to an Auro 3D demo? I personally don't think that they have the marketing edge to break into the surround format war of the big 2.
You should pop over to the Auro thread to get some opinions:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/showth...8#post30631098

I personally listened to Auro and Atmos and found Auro way more immersive and natural then Atmos. My speaker layout will mainly be guided by the Auro layout.
I agree with everyone that the likeleyhood of lots of Auro3D native BluRays in comparison to Atmos or DTS:X is rather small, but especially the Auromatic (Auro's upmixer) is supposed to very good, and my (personal) movie consumption is more back-titles then new blockbusters anyway!
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post #364 of 3265 Old 01-09-2015, 02:25 AM
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Returned the 7009.
Funny, after reading finally some solid information from DTS' yesterday press conference published a twice.com - http://www.twice.com/blog/open-circu...onfusion/55571 - it now looks that the analog / RCA 7.1 multi-channel input of the Marantz SR 7009 could become an important feature to somehow futureproof it.

twice.com: Familiar layouts include 5.1 layouts without height speakers. “We don’t require elevation speakers,” Kirchner said. “We can render height virtually.”

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My question is if you run analog 7.1 would a player with DTS-X, would that player then decode the new audio codec passing it's information through the pre/pro and out to your speakers? If so then one may need only a new DTS-X capable Blu-ray player IF one runs analog thru the processor.
My thoughts exactly. Oppo still manufactures BD Players with 7.1 multi-channel analog outputs. Looks like these could come in very handy, should Oppo consider implementing DTS:X processors in one of their next product lines.

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post #365 of 3265 Old 01-09-2015, 04:10 AM
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Funny, after reading finally some solid information from DTS' yesterday press conference published a twice.com - http://www.twice.com/blog/open-circu...onfusion/55571 - it now looks that the analog / RCA 7.1 multi-channel input of the Marantz SR 7009 could become an important feature to somehow futureproof it.

twice.com: Familiar layouts include 5.1 layouts without height speakers. “We don’t require elevation speakers,” Kirchner said. “We can render height virtually.”



My thoughts exactly. Oppo still manufactures BD Players with 7.1 multi-channel analog outputs. Looks like these could come in very handy, should Oppo consider implementing DTS:X processors in one of their next product lines.
Thanks, great info!! Yup, that could work...I've ordered the 4100 but actually have until Jan 22 to physically return the 7009. I wish there was a definitive answer on this one. If I new the 7009 could somehow support DTS:X, I would keep it. Unfortunately Maratnz has told me no it won't but to the point of your info, it could. Unfortunately I don't have a money tree in the back yard and can't afford to strand a $2k investment on the 7009 in "hopes" of compatibility. Perhaps between now and Jan. 22 more info will emerge
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post #366 of 3265 Old 01-09-2015, 04:33 AM
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With the prospect of using the 7.1 multi-channel input of the Marantz SR 7009 for an external DTS:X sound source, I'd speculate that the owners of Dolby Atmos equipped Denon AVRs (except the 7200 because of a) the upgrade option rumors and b) its 7.1 input) are in bigger need of a future DTS:x upgrade option, but I'm afraid the sceptics will turn out to be correct.

Frankly, right from the start, I did wish for an 11.1 analog multi-channel input, but I had not imagined that the available 7.1 input of the SR 7009 would gain such significance in such a short time.

Come to think of it, I believe it's fair to say that the analog multi-channel inputs have been one of the best AV inventions ever to ensure some sort of longevity.

My first Parasound pre-amp had these (I'm still thinking of using it for the living room and hook it up to my Pioneer BDP with multi-channel / format analog outputs), my Rotel RSP-1098 enabled SACD multi-channel and Dolby TrueHD/DTS-HD listening from my players, and now with the SR 7009 I might be in for a treat once DTS:X is available in consumer products with multi-channel outputs.

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Last edited by Frank714; 01-09-2015 at 04:44 AM. Reason: I love analog multi-channel inputs!
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post #367 of 3265 Old 01-09-2015, 04:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Frank714 View Post
With the prospect of using the 7.1 multi-channel input of the Marantz SR 7009 for an external DTS:X sound source, I'd speculate that the owners of Dolby Atmos equipped Denon AVRs (except the 7200 because of a) the upgrade option rumors and b) its 7.1 input) are in bigger need of a future DTS:x upgrade option, but I'm afraid the sceptics will turn out to be correct.

Frankly, right from the start, I did wish for an 11.1 analog multi-channel input, but I had not imagined that the available 7.1 input of the SR 7009 would gain such significance in such a short while.
Given this is new to me, so you would need a BR player with 7 channel output and built in DTS:X decoder, and run those outputs to the 7009 analog inputs. What happens with the 4 height channels and subs? Do those just travel via HDMI into the 7009 and somehow get integrated in to the output?
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post #368 of 3265 Old 01-09-2015, 04:53 AM
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If you have something like the oppo that is decoding the 7.1 DTS:X to pcm then you should be able to just use hdmi and just make sure there isn't any post processing (e.g. DSU) being applied by the avr/ssp. No need for analog inputs.

And no you wouldn't get the extra channels only the 7.1 and whatever virtual channels they might be able to create from the 7.1.
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post #369 of 3265 Old 01-09-2015, 05:30 AM
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If you have something like the oppo that is decoding the 7.1 DTS:X to pcm then you should be able to just use hdmi and just make sure there isn't any post processing (e.g. DSU) being applied by the avr/ssp. No need for analog inputs.

And no you wouldn't get the extra channels only the 7.1 and whatever virtual channels they might be able to create from the 7.1.
Ok, I'm confused, folks above seemed to think the 7009 analogue input would future proof the avr for DTS:X...but u r saying for 7.1 not 7.2.4? Ie no height channels? Well, if that's true, it's not a solution...am I understanding correctly?
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post #370 of 3265 Old 01-09-2015, 05:34 AM
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You're understanding it correctly and I agree you may as well use the DTS hdma.
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post #371 of 3265 Old 01-09-2015, 06:56 AM
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Ok, I'm confused, folks above seemed to think the 7009 analogue input would future proof the avr for DTS:X...but u r saying for 7.1 not 7.2.4? Ie no height channels? Well, if that's true, it's not a solution...am I understanding correctly?
Again, Jon Kirchner (CEO and chairman of DTS) said yesterday that for the (immersive) new sound experience of DTS:X, we won't need any height channels, thus it follows that DTS:X playback in 7.1 is possible.

On the other hand, you will need height (overhead) channels for Dolby Atmos / DSU playback.

How well DTS:X performs in a 7.1 setup versus a 7.1.4 setup remains to be seen as currently it's only obvious that DTS wants to tell us, that we don't have to add extra speakers.

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post #372 of 3265 Old 01-09-2015, 07:02 AM
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Again, Jon Kirchner (CEO and chairman of DTS) said yesterday that for the (immersive) new sound experience of DTS:X, we won't need any height channels, thus it follows that DTS:X playback in 7.1 is possible.

On the other hand, you will need height (overhead) channels for Dolby Atmos / DSU playback.

How well DTS:X performs in a 7.1 setup versus a 7.1.4 setup remains to be seen as currently it's only obvious that DTS wants to tell us, that we don't have to add extra speakers.
It's probably because height channels are not needed that they put 10 height speakers in their demo at CES


You can have DTS:X in headphones, so of course you can have DTS:X with just a 7.1 bed.


If you believe that this will be as good as with discrete height channels (especially to position objects precisely in the 3D space), then I guess you must really want to believe that buying your 7009 wasn't a bad decision.


By the way, I don't think it necessarily was a bad decision, but what you say is not different than saying that a soundbar simulating 5.1 from stereo content with virtual 5.1 is just as good as a proper 5.1 set up with discrete speakers reproducing 5.1 discrete channels from native dolby digital content.


The fact that you can hook up your dvd player with stereo analog channels to simulate a 5.1 reproduction on the soundbar doesn't allow you to get the information that's missing from the native 5.1 content in the dolby digital track.


The same principle applies here.

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post #373 of 3265 Old 01-09-2015, 07:13 AM
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It's probably because height channels are not needed that they put 10 height speakers in their demo at CES


You can have DTS:X in headphones, so of course you can have DTS:X with just a 7.1 bed.


If you believe that this will be as good as with discrete height channels (especially to position objects precisely in the 3D space), then I guess you must really want to believe that buying your 7009 wasn't a bad decision.


By the way, I don't think it necessarily was a bad decision, but what you say is not different than saying that a soundbar simulating 5.1 from stereo content with virtual 5.1 is just as good as a proper 5.1 set up with discrete speakers reproducing 5.1 discrete channels from native dolby digital content.


The fact that you can hook up your dvd player with stereo analog channels to simulate a 5.1 reproduction on the soundbar doesn't allow you to get the information that's missing from the native 5.1 content in the dolby digital track.


The same principle applies here.
Amen, that's what I was "trying" to say!
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post #374 of 3265 Old 01-09-2015, 08:01 AM
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Thanks, great info!! Yup, that could work...I've ordered the 4100 but actually have until Jan 22 to physically return the 7009. I wish there was a definitive answer on this one. If I new the 7009 could somehow support DTS:X, I would keep it. Unfortunately Maratnz has told me no it won't but to the point of your info, it could. Unfortunately I don't have a money tree in the back yard and can't afford to strand a $2k investment on the 7009 in "hopes" of compatibility. Perhaps between now and Jan. 22 more info will emerge
I understand your internal conflict on this one. I also recently upgraded to the 7009. I am thoroughly enjoying Atmos content, and everyone who has listened to it in my HT has been blown away also. I look at it this way....When did they originally announce Atmos? April 2012 http://investor.dolby.com/releasedet...leaseID=666401 It wasn't until October of 2013 that they even hit the 85 film mark. I have gone through 2 receiver upgrades since 2012! My personal opinion...Yeah, there's tons of hype with DTS announcing the X theater format, but there was TONS of hype when Dolby announced the Atmos format..go back and look at the old AVS forum threads...they sound eerily familiar to what is being said right now. Look how much Atmos home theater content we currently have now...in January 2015....3 Whole Blu-rays! Clearly it takes time to implement this kind of tech. I personally would like to see a whole heap of special edition re-released Blu-rays with Atmos content that was available at the theatrical releases but not incorporated into the blu-ray releases.

So yes, in a year...maybe 2, when there is actual DTS:X content that has made it's way into the home theater offering then I probably will upgrade my receiver if that's what it takes. I think DTS is really screwing people with not making this a firmware up-gradable format, perhaps it will give Aura 3D an advantage, though I doubt it.
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post #375 of 3265 Old 01-09-2015, 08:08 AM
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I understand your internal conflict on this one. I also recently upgraded to the 7009. I am thoroughly enjoying Atmos content, and everyone who has listened to it in my HT has been blown away also. I look at it this way....When did they originally announce Atmos? April 2012 http://investor.dolby.com/releasedet...leaseID=666401 It wasn't until October of 2013 that they even hit the 85 film mark. I have gone through 2 receiver upgrades since 2012! My personal opinion...Yeah, there's tons of hype with DTS announcing the X theater format, but there was TONS of hype when Dolby announced the Atmos format..go back and look at the old AVS forum threads...they sound eerily familiar to what is being said right now. Look how much Atmos home theater content we currently have now...in January 2015....3 Whole Blu-rays! Clearly it takes time to implement this kind of tech. I personally would like to see a whole heap of special edition re-released Blu-rays with Atmos content that was available at the theatrical releases but not incorporated into the blu-ray releases.

So yes, in a year...maybe 2, when there is actual DTS:X content that has made it's way into the home theater offering then I probably will upgrade my receiver if that's what it takes. I think DTS is really screwing people with not making this a firmware up-gradable format, perhaps it will give Aura 3D an advantage, though I doubt it.
Thanks, I was wondering what the gap was between when ATMOS was announced and when receivers/content were available...good point regardless if I keep the 7009 or the 4100, it's still minimum a year before things start to come together...
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post #376 of 3265 Old 01-09-2015, 08:21 AM
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If you believe that this will be as good as with discrete height channels (especially to position objects precisely in the 3D space), then I guess you must really want to believe that buying your 7009 wasn't a bad decision.
Of course it wasn't because my Rotel pre-amp was defect beyond repair and I did need a new AVR or pre-amp anyway.


But what I find noteworthy is this:
  • Dolby told us upfront that we'll be needing at least one pair of overhead speakers / ceiling reflections
  • DTS claims these are not necessary for an immersive DTS:X experience.
Wouldn't really call this a confidence booster if the DTS claim were incorrect, and still no word from Mark or Scott whether they did like the personalized DTS:X demo presentation they experienced yesterday.

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post #377 of 3265 Old 01-09-2015, 08:25 AM
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It's probably because height channels are not needed that they put 10 height speakers in their demo at CES
I counted only 7. ;-)
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post #378 of 3265 Old 01-09-2015, 08:29 AM
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Of course it wasn't because my Rotel pre-amp was defect beyond repair and I did need a new AVR or pre-amp anyway.



But what I find noteworthy is this:
  • Dolby told us upfront that we'll be needing at least one pair of overhead speakers
  • DTS claims these are not necessary for an immersive DTS:X experience.
Wouldn't really call this a confidence booster if the DTS claim were incorrect, and still no word from Mark or Scott whether they did like the personalized DTS:X demo presentation they experienced yesterday.
You need at least one pair of overhead speakers (or dolby enabled speakers) with Atmos to benefit from the discrete channels and object rendering of the format.


Atmos upmixer can ALSO work without any height speakers, as some users have reported. They couldn't make much of a difference between listening to this and listening to DTS-HD MA.


It's great that you have so much faith in a company's vague pre-announce, and so little faith in the law of physics .


Of course DTS will say that they don't need height speakers. It doesn't mean that you will get the same results as with heights speakers, therefore your convoluted analog solution is not a solution or even a workaround, just a bizarre compromise.


I honestly don't understand what kind of miracle you expect a player with analog in and no height channels to achieve. Yes, it can do some kind of height simulation, just like my sony headphones can simulate 9.2. But does that produce a similar effect?


I really can't understand why you believe this, but it is your right .
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post #379 of 3265 Old 01-09-2015, 08:44 AM
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As I read what John Kellogg stated posted in Audioholics, he said that they (DTS) are not sure weather the blu-ray players would need a firmware upgrade or one may need a new player.
I find this disturbing: they don't (yet) know enough about the implementation of DTS:X to know if it can "bitstream" like every other audio codec upgrade?! I can tell you this: for almost any Blu-Ray player older than a year, a required firmware upgrade might as well be a hardware (throw-away) upgrade, because most manufacturers stop supporting older models as a matter of lifecycle design (e.g. they want you to buy a new one).

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Originally Posted by groundtrac View Post
I understand your internal conflict on this one. I also recently upgraded to the 7009. I am thoroughly enjoying Atmos content, and everyone who has listened to it in my HT has been blown away also. I look at it this way....When did they originally announce Atmos? April 2012 http://investor.dolby.com/releasedet...leaseID=666401 It wasn't until October of 2013 that they even hit the 85 film mark. I have gone through 2 receiver upgrades since 2012! My personal opinion...Yeah, there's tons of hype with DTS announcing the X theater format, but there was TONS of hype when Dolby announced the Atmos format..go back and look at the old AVS forum threads...they sound eerily familiar to what is being said right now. Look how much Atmos home theater content we currently have now...in January 2015....3 Whole Blu-rays! Clearly it takes time to implement this kind of tech. I personally would like to see a whole heap of special edition re-released Blu-rays with Atmos content that was available at the theatrical releases but not incorporated into the blu-ray releases.

So yes, in a year...maybe 2, when there is actual DTS:X content that has made it's way into the home theater offering then I probably will upgrade my receiver if that's what it takes. I think DTS is really screwing people with not making this a firmware up-gradable format, perhaps it will give Aura 3D an advantage, though I doubt it.
Adding to what groundtrac said. Look at DTS Neo:X...There are only 3 Blu-rays that were optimized for that format with the last one being released (again) 2 years ago in January 2013.

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post #381 of 3265 Old 01-09-2015, 09:13 AM
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You need at least one pair of overhead speakers (or dolby enabled speakers) with Atmos to benefit from the discrete channels and object rendering of the format.


Atmos upmixer can ALSO work without any height speakers, as some users have reported. They couldn't make much of a difference between listening to this and listening to DTS-HD MA.


It's great that you have so much faith in a company's vague pre-announce, and so little faith in the law of physics .


Of course DTS will say that they don't need height speakers. It doesn't mean that you will get the same results as with heights speakers, therefore your convoluted analog solution is not a solution or even a workaround, just a bizarre compromise.


I honestly don't understand what kind of miracle you expect a player with analog in and no height channels to achieve. Yes, it can do some kind of height simulation, just like my sony headphones can simulate 9.2. But does that produce a similar effect?


I really can't understand why you believe this, but it is your right .
Manni01, you are overreacting. Calm down, breathe in and out.

What DTS was saying was when you use a DTS:X decoder to extract a DTS:X encoded movie, if you do not have height speakers attached you can turn on a virtual height DSP mode that will give you a simulated sensation of overheads. You still have to have a DTS:X licensed product for it to work. They're trying to differentiate their product from Dolby's by stating that unlike Atmos, where you have to buy "enabled" speakers to get any kind of overhead effect (sans mounting physical overheads), we can do a similar head-related transfer function (HRTF) effect with the same speakers you already have.

Whether it will be as good as Atmos "enabled" upfiring speakers trying to create a simulated height effect remains to be heard.
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post #382 of 3265 Old 01-09-2015, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Manni01, you are overreacting. Calm down, breathe in and out.

What DTS was saying was when you use a DTS:X decoder to extract a DTS:X encoded movie, if you do not have height speakers attached you can turn on a virtual height DSP mode that will give you a simulated sensation of overheads. You still have to have a DTS:X licensed product for it to work. They're trying to differentiate their product from Dolby's by stating that unlike Atmos, where you have to buy "enabled" speakers to get any kind of overhead effect (sans mounting physical overheads), we can do a similar height transfer function (HTF) effect with the same speakers you already have.

Whether it will be as good as Atmos "enabled" upfiring speakers trying to create a simulated height effect remains to be heard.

I'm very calm, as illustrated by the


That's exactly my understanding of what DTS says. I'm not even comparing this with Atmos using upfiring speakers. I'm comparing this with DTS:X using heights speakers.


If you want a rating regarding rendering 3D sound, I'd say:


7.1 bed
<
DTS:X with simulated heights
<
Dolby Atmos with upfiring speakers (if your room can accommodate it), because at least there is discrete information sent to actual discrete speakers.
<
DTS:X/Dolby Atmos/Anything using actual heights speakers properly positioned.


So Dolby offered the Dolby enabled speakers, and DTS offers the simulated heights. Great. I'm just not interested .


I want the full effect, as precise and efficient as possible, and no simulation will give this.


That means heights speakers properly positioned


Saying that DTS:X works without heights speakers is like saying that you can listen to an Atmos or DTS:X soundtrack with headphones. It's not incorrect. It's just not a solution for someone who wants the full effect.


And as I'm not stuck with a 7009, I'm just going to leave it there. I'm happy if it's a partial solution for some, I just find it slightly excessive to present it as a solution to the lack of DTS:X codec support in the AVR.


I'm super relaxed by the way .
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post #383 of 3265 Old 01-09-2015, 09:37 AM
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Sounds like I need to build a lot more speakers come march!
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post #384 of 3265 Old 01-09-2015, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I'm very calm, as illustrated by the


That's exactly my understanding of what DTS says. I'm not even comparing this with Atmos using upfiring speakers. I'm comparing this with DTS:X using heights speakers.


If you want a rating regarding rendering 3D sound, I'd say:


7.1 bed
<
DTS:X with simulated heights
<
Dolby Atmos with upfiring speakers (if your room can accommodate it), because at least there is discrete information sent to actual discrete speakers.
<
DTS:X/Dolby Atmos/Anything using actual heights speakers properly positioned.


So Dolby offered the Dolby enabled speakers, and DTS offers the simulated heights. Great. I'm just not interested .


I want the full effect, as precise and efficient as possible, and no simulation will give this.


That means heights speakers properly positioned


Saying that DTS:X works without heights speakers is like saying that you can listen to an Atmos or DTS:X soundtrack with headphones. It's not incorrect. It's just not a solution for someone who wants the full effect.


And as I'm not stuck with a 7009, I'm just going to leave it there. I'm happy if it's a partial solution for some, I just find it slightly excessive to present it as a solution to the lack of DTS:X codec support in the AVR.


I'm super relaxed by the way .
100 percent agreed. That's why I'm returning my $2000 7009 and going with an interim $1000 4100. Will sound exactly the same until this format war is over and then I'll be more than happy to upgrade...
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post #385 of 3265 Old 01-09-2015, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I'm very calm, as illustrated by the


That's exactly my understanding of what DTS says. I'm not even comparing this with Atmos using upfiring speakers. I'm comparing this with DTS:X using heights speakers.


If you want a rating regarding rendering 3D sound, I'd say:


7.1 bed
<
DTS:X with simulated heights
<
Dolby Atmos with upfiring speakers (if your room can accommodate it), because at least there is discrete information sent to actual discrete speakers.
<
DTS:X/Dolby Atmos/Anything using actual heights speakers properly positioned.


So Dolby offered the Dolby enabled speakers, and DTS offers the simulated heights. Great. I'm just not interested .


I want the full effect, as precise and efficient as possible, and no simulation will give this.


That means heights speakers properly positioned


Saying that DTS:X works without heights speakers is like saying that you can listen to an Atmos or DTS:X soundtrack with headphones. It's not incorrect. It's just not a solution for someone who wants the full effect.


And as I'm not stuck with a 7009, I'm just going to leave it there. I'm happy if it's a partial solution for some, I just find it slightly excessive to present it as a solution to the lack of DTS:X codec support in the AVR.


I'm super relaxed by the way .
Oh, I do agree that real overheads trump simulated "enabled" or DSP created overheads any day... that was my experience at CEDIA with Atmos. DTS:X will have positional object metadata for overheads just like Atmos and that's what they demoed at CES. They're just trying to calm the Joe and Jane 6-Pack crowd and allay their fears of needing to buy a bunch of new speakers - whether they really need to or not.

As for possibly needing a firmware upgrade for Blu-ray players... I think they're hedging their bets via corporate speak just like Dolby did when Atmos for the home was first announced. I'm sure most any player on the market can play DTS:X encoded movies via bitstreaming just like Atmos.

Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!
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post #386 of 3265 Old 01-09-2015, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post


Of course DTS will say that they don't need height speakers. It doesn't mean that you will get the same results as with heights speakers, therefore your convoluted analog solution is not a solution or even a workaround, just a bizarre compromise.


I honestly don't understand what kind of miracle you expect a player with analog in and no height channels to achieve. Yes, it can do some kind of height simulation, just like my sony headphones can simulate 9.2. But does that produce a similar effect?


I really can't understand why you believe this, but it is your right .

This is how it will work. I agree with you and with Frank714


If you go to Techgeek interviews with John Kellogg of DTS both in the 2013 and 2014 this is how the MDA (DTS-X) file will work.


It is an open-based platform that will work with any device. It is also openly flexible in that one can use it from a sound bar to 22 speakers or so. The final result will be up to the END USER in how many speakers are implemented. DTS-X is designed to work well with 7.1 set-ups and will be even more precise with more elaborate ones. DTS-X will be and immersive object-based platform even WITH 5.1/7.1 set-ups, just not quite as immersive as with set-ups involving more speakers. If the room is mid sized, then the new codec will work better with 7.1 than it would in a large room with the same amount of speakers. This is to say that larger rooms will require more speakers for DTS-X to work as it would with only 7 speakers in a mid-sized or smaller room.


This said, for 5.1/7.1 users (like myself) DTS-X will work very well.
The issue then that remains for those of us who have multi-channel inputs in our AVRs is.....
1 - Blu-ray player manufacturers instill a DTS-X decoder in their players for processing at the player level
2 - Oppo Digital or Cambridge Audio (who still use multi-channel analog inputs) CONTINUE to offer those inputs in their players.


This will give immersive DTS-X sound to their existing systems.
I use Klipsch RF-82 fronts with their large center and surround speakers in an 1800 cubic ft room. There is plenty of output capability in my room with 7 capable speakers to fill it.


For what it's worth, I'm not planning to implement more speakers in my room. DTS is poised to be inclusive of all set-ups in all environments. Bottom line the vast vast majority of homes are not interested in ceiling speakers. Dolby is at a huge mass consumer disadvantage and DTS knows this.
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post #387 of 3265 Old 01-09-2015, 10:27 AM
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I have no problem understanding how DTS:X works, or how DTS is trying to sell the format to a mass audience.


I have a problem understanding why some here, on AVS, seem to believe that any simulated DSP will give the same effect as having discrete heights channels with discrete heights speakers, irrespective of the room size (provided you have enough separation between ear level and height/top layers of course, if you're a hobbit living in a 5 feet high room then of course 7.1 is more than you need).


Anyway, I'm leaving it there because I can't see anything that could make my point clearer.
If DTS:X pleases those who don't want height speakers at all for whatever reason, that's fantastic .
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post #388 of 3265 Old 01-09-2015, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I have no problem understanding how DTS:X works, or how DTS is trying to sell the format to a mass audience.


I have a problem understanding why some here, on AVS, seem to believe that any simulated DSP will give the same effect as having discrete heights channels with discrete heights speakers, irrespective of the room size (provided you have enough separation between ear level and height/top layers of course, if you're a hobbit living in a 5 feet high room then of course 7.1 is more than you need).


Anyway, I'm leaving it there because I can't see anything that could make my point clearer.
If DTS:X pleases those who don't want height speakers at all for whatever reason, that's fantastic .



Hey Manni. Just to clarify here. I do agree with you in that processing will not equal discreet overhead speakers. What I am saying is that DTS just wants to be flexible for all users and even they admit that compromises will be experienced using existing platforms and even more going down to 2 channel layouts. Hobbits aside, existing system layouts will work fairly well but not like ones with overhead speakers. Most in the mass consumer market will not be implementing such elaborate systems. The trend is less speakers nowadays and not more.


In my company our AVS dept does not sell surround sound like it once used to. That's the mass consumer trend I'm afraid.

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post #389 of 3265 Old 01-09-2015, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by bass excavator View Post
Hey Manni. Just to clarify here. I do agree with you in that processing will not equal discreet overhead speakers. What I am saying is that DTS just wants to be flexible for all users and even they admit that compromises will be experienced using existing platforms and even more going down to 2 channel layouts. Hobbits aside, existing system layouts will work fairly well but not like ones with overhead speakers. Most in the mass consumer market will not be implementing such elaborate systems. The trend is less speakers nowadays and not more.


In my company our AVS dept does not sell surround sound like it once used to. That's the mass consumer trend I'm afraid.

Oh then we're in agreement
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post #390 of 3265 Old 01-09-2015, 11:45 AM
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When you say height speakers does it mean in-ceiling speakers? In my present configuration I have front speakers, above the main front ones, at the top of the front wall; two speakers, over the surround ones, at the top of side walls; rear speakers, at the top of the back wall. Should Dolby atmos or DTS:X (by supposal) work out well in such a configuration? I use two subwoofers also.
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