Joe Kane/Samsung HDR Demo at CE Week 2015 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 73Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 114 Old 07-29-2015, 04:52 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scott Wilkinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Burbank, CA
Posts: 3,258
Mentioned: 94 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1881 Post(s)
Liked: 4909
Joe Kane/Samsung HDR Demo at CE Week 2015



High dynamic range took center stage at CE Week as Joe Kane discussed his vision for the future of television content and reproduction.

At CE Week in New York last month, video guru Joe Kane presented a wonderful demonstration of high dynamic range (HDR) several times during the show. (Thanks to John Bishop of Bishop Audio Services for the photo above of Joe doing his thing at CE Week.) He started by emphasizing that the rules of video—up to and including HD—are based on CRT (cathode-ray tube) capabilities. Any new display technologies had to look like CRT—even though CRT displays were disappearing—and if they offered greater capabilities, they had to be dumbed down to match the limits of CRT.

The transition to Ultra HD began with the same limitations. TV manufacturers started making what amounted to HDTVs with four times as many pixels, but the content-creation community was left out at first, so there was no standardization of other aspects of image quality, such as dynamic range and color gamut. As a result, content creators continued to use standard dynamic range with a peak brightness of 100 nits, power-law gamma, and the BT.709 color gamut—the same specs as HD, which are more or less based on CRT capabilities—to create UHD content. And UHDTVs must be "reigned in" to conform to these specs, even if they can do more, to reproduce that content as the creator saw it in the mastering process.

Then, in August 2012, the opportunity to evolve beyond CRT in both content and reproduction appeared in the form of the ITU-R (International Telecommunication Union-Radiocommunication Sector) BT.2020 specification. This spec includes a much wider color gamut, new equations for converting RGB to YCbCr, 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 color subsampling, and other enhancements that go way beyond the capabilities of any CRT.

However, BT.2020 is not perfect by any means. For example, it says nothing about high dynamic range or an EOTF (electro-optical transfer function)—the function currently served by gamma—though it does include specs for 10- and 12-bit coding, which is vital for any implementation of HDR. According to Joe, its biggest contribution is opening the door to reconsider everything, to put all parameters on the table, paving the way to a vastly improved set of standards for the next generation of video content and display—and beyond.

Many experts believe that HDR requires a new EOTF, which determines how a display responds to the brightness information in a video signal. Gamma just doesn't cut it—even with 12-bit resolution, banding between adjacent brightness values is visible at low light levels. The best-known candidate for a new EOTF is called PQ (Perceptual Quantizer), which was introduced by Dolby as part of its Dolby Vision HDR system and has now been standardized by SMPTE (Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers) as ST 2084.


With 10-bit resolution, BT.1886 gamma and the PQ curves are above the Barten Ramp Threshold throughout the practical brightness range, which means that banding will be visible in the image. BTW, as you can see, there is a 10,000-nit and 1000-nit PQ curve in this and the following graph, which reflects the fact that Dolby was trying out different peak-brightness levels early in the development process. But as I learned from Joe and Dolby, PQ is now tied to a peak brightness of 10,000 nits, as discussed below.


With 12-bit resolution, BT-1886 gamma is above the Barton Ramp Threshold at luminance levels below about 8 nits, which means that banding will be visible in low-luminance images. The 12-bit PQ curves are below the Barton Ramp, which means no banding will be visible at any luminance level.

One of Joe's most interesting points—and something I hadn't known before—was that PQ uses a fixed reference for peak brightness, whereas gamma is relative to whatever the display is capable of. The peak brightness of PQ is typically defined as 10,000 nits, 100 times more than the current standard of 100 nits for peak brightness in the mastering process. This is way beyond the capabilities of any current display technology—except for a custom display built by Dolby that focuses all the light from a digital-cinema projector onto a 24" screen!

Dolby's own Pulsar HDR LCD monitor has a peak brightness of 4000 nits, but it's liquid-cooled (!), and the company's second-generation HDR monitor maxes out at 2000 nits. Samsung's SUHD HDR-capable TVs can reach 1100 nits, but only in small areas of the image—with a full-screen white field (or, say, a scene dominated by bright snow), the peak brightness drops to around 300 nits in order to avoid drawing an inordinate amount of power. These TVs are not unlike plasma in this regard.

Because PQ uses a fixed peak-brightness of 10,000 nits, content graded for a peak brightness of 1000 nits uses only 80% of the range of brightness values, while grading for a peak brightness of 300 nits (typical for current OLED TVs) uses only 60% of the brightness range—higher values are limited to the same light-output level. As a result, Joe would prefer a relative EOTF; as he puts it, HDR is really about contrast, not absolute light output.


If content is graded for a peak brightness of 1000 nits using PQ—which is likely, at least for now—brightness values above about 80% will be limited to 1000 nits, since PQ is tied to a peak brightness of 10,000 nits. If the content is graded for a peak brightness of 300 nits—a common peak brightness for OLED—values above about 60% will be limited to 300 nits.

Joe also talked about bit depth, pointing out that moving from 8 to 10 bits increases the number of brightness code values by a factor of 4. In BT.2020, black is defined as 64, nominal white is 940, and peak white is 1019, though the spec also says that video data can exist between 4 and 1019. (Values 0-3 and 1020-1023 are reserved for timing data.) Interestingly, 8-bit black is defined as 16 and white is 235, both of which are exactly one quarter of the 10-bit values. There is a self-imposed upper limit of 235 in most 8-bit content, and there are discussions of imposing an upper limit of 940 in the 10-bit world. As Joe notes, it is quite ironic that HDR content might not use all the dynamic range available to it in the signal. He would prefer the nominal-white value to be 1019, allowing more of the range to be used routinely.


The range of brightness values using 10 bits is four times the range of 8 bits.

Another critical aspect of HDR is color—not necessarily a wider gamut (though the wider P3 gamut is used in almost all currently available HDR content), but more saturated colors at higher (and lower) brightness levels than standard dynamic range can manage. As the overall brightness increases, colors become less saturated and converge on white; similarly, as the overall brightness decreases, the colors converge on black. With higher dynamic range, colors can remain saturated over a wider range of brightness levels.


As a display approaches its maximum or minimum brightness, the color gamut converges on white or black. With high dynamic range using more than 8 bits, colors remain saturated at higher and lower brightness levels than 8-bit standard dynamic range can manage. For example, this means the sky can remain more blue if it's a brighter part of the image.

Since everything is "on the table" as we make the transition to UHD, Joe advocates what he calls a container approach—that is, capture and store as much information as possible (highest dynamic range, greatest bit depth, widest color gamut, etc.) in a standardized "container" format, and then derive what the current display technology can accommodate as the delivered content. When display technology improves, new metadata can be applied to the existing container so information can be extracted to more closely fit the characteristics of the new technology.

In addition to all this great info, Joe also demonstrated still photos and video he had captured in HDR, displaying them on a Samsung UN65JS9500. The photos had been shot on a Nikon D800E DSLR with a native resolution of about 8K and a dynamic range of about 14 stops, which is equivalent to 14 bits. The video footage was shot on a Sony PMW-F55 digital-cinema camera with a native resolution of 4K and a dynamic range of 14 stops.

Joe doesn't know the spectral sensitivity of the D800E or F55, though he says the F55 is probably very similar to the F65, whose spectral sensitivity is shown below. He's convinced that the D800E can capture at least Adobe RGB and probably more, but Nikon won't reveal that info, so he intends to profile the camera himself.


The Sony PMW-F55 digital-cinema camera has a very wide spectral sensitivity, much larger than P3. The F65 probably has much the same sensitivity.

Of course, all this material had to be downconverted for the 10-bit/P3 Samsung TV, but it still looked amazing. However, there were some differences between different pieces of material. For example, the photos from the D800E were downsampled from 8K to UHD, and they looked sharper than the native 4K footage, demonstrating that capturing at higher resolution than you'll end up with is better than capturing at the final resolution to begin with. And one of the shots from the F55 was captured at 1080p/60 and upscaled, which looked softer than the rest of the footage that was captured at 2160p/24.

After Joe's presentation, representatives from Samsung showed clips from Exodus and The Maze Runner in 4K HDR—the same files that are available to download on M-Go—from a UHD Video Pack server on the JS9500 and in HD SDR from an Oppo BDP-83 Blu-ray player on a UN65JU7100 sitting just below the JS9500. The engineer with the remotes was a wizard at getting the two sources synchronized! The HDR versions were clearly better, with greater contrast and richer colors.

After we all got back from CE Week, I visited Joe at his house, where he has a Samsung UN85S9 and UN78JS9500 set up in his living room. Of course, the S9 is an 8-bit UHD panel and not capable of displaying HDR, but the JS9500 is fully capable of HDR with a 10-bit panel and a wide color gamut (WCG) that encompasses over 90% of the P3 gamut. Sitting in a chair positioned exactly 1.5 times the screen height from the center of the JS9500, I watched a UHD clip from Oblivion graded in HDR and P3 color and then in SDR and 709 color using two TV presets calibrated for each clip.


Joe Kane's living room has two Samsung flat panels, a UN85S9 (left) and UN78JS9500. Notice he has placed chairs directly in front of each set at the optimal distance for UHD resolution.

In that orientation and at that distance, my objections to curved screens disappeared, replaced by a complete sense of immersion (though no one else could experience it that way at the same time). The HDR/P3 clip was stunningly gorgeous, while the SDR/709 clip looked much duller with less color. Even played sequentially rather than side by side, the difference was obvious—the HDR image put the SDR version to shame. I can't wait for HDR/WCG content and displays to become commonplace!

Like AVS Forum on Facebook
Follow AVS Forum on Twitter
+1 AVS Forum on Google+

Last edited by Scott Wilkinson; 07-30-2015 at 07:41 PM.
Scott Wilkinson is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 114 Old 07-29-2015, 05:11 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
mo949's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 4,955
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 1193
The comparison I need to see is 100 NIT SDR with P3Color and 10bit in a dim environment Vs. 1,000 NIT HDR with P3 Color and 10bit in the same environment. That will be a much more relevant comparison as a home consumer to whether the HDR aspect really represents anything of worth during 'movie time' at home.
mo949 is offline  
post #3 of 114 Old 07-29-2015, 06:12 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scott Wilkinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Burbank, CA
Posts: 3,258
Mentioned: 94 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1881 Post(s)
Liked: 4909
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post
The comparison I need to see is 100 NIT SDR with P3Color and 10bit in a dim environment Vs. 1,000 NIT HDR with P3 Color and 10bit in the same environment. That will be a much more relevant comparison as a home consumer to whether the HDR aspect really represents anything of worth during 'movie time' at home.
Actually, 100-nit SDR with P3 color and 10 bits is not what a consumer would ever see at home, so I think this is not a good comparison to see if HDR really represents anything worthwhile. The comparison that makes the most sense to me is 100-nit/8-bit SDR with 709 color (which represents the vast majority of current consumer content) on a set calibrated for it versus content graded for 1000-nit/10-bit HDR with P3 color on a set calibrated for that. This is exactly the comparison I saw at Joe's as described in the OP, and the difference is stunning.
GeorgeAB, Dhalmo, jcr159 and 4 others like this.

Last edited by Scott Wilkinson; 07-29-2015 at 08:04 PM.
Scott Wilkinson is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 114 Old 07-29-2015, 06:25 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
ray0414's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: michigan
Posts: 16,924
Mentioned: 266 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12746 Post(s)
Liked: 12054
Scott, question regarding this Oblivion clip. Can you give any indication of how he got this clip, and was it the whole movie or just part? Was this Oblivion clip graded in the standard SMPTE HDR or in DV? from what I have heard this movie was graded in Dolby along with a couple others including Man of Steel also. Did it receive both HDR grades? Thats one of my favorite movies, Id love to see it in HDR!

82Q90R*75Q9FN(RIP)*55C8OLED*Galaxy Note10+*Ub820 fed into Oppo 203*XB1X*4k DenonX4200

MASTER LIST OF HDR CONTENT THREAD HERE, UPDATED OFTEN
ray0414 is online now  
post #5 of 114 Old 07-29-2015, 06:46 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Cleveland,Ohio
Posts: 7,043
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2987 Post(s)
Liked: 2830
Edge lit doesn't have the precision to control or modulate the different nits on each pseudo zone, it can only control 8 true zones around the edge.

you either affect the blacks or whites when trying to adjust either one.

law of physics ,a true zone base display is the way to go for HDR.

I think Scott is aware of this issue he is been writing articles about HDR since 2007.

when the edge lit display want to send high nits it have to travel trough the diffuser giving a inaccurate form of HDR.

the weakest point of the edge lit is the center.


What this HDR Samsung files do is crank the settings of the TV to max , that's what this file have been doing on the 2014 displays with the new OCB box.

Last edited by losservatore; 07-29-2015 at 06:55 PM.
losservatore is offline  
post #6 of 114 Old 07-29-2015, 06:59 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
ray0414's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: michigan
Posts: 16,924
Mentioned: 266 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12746 Post(s)
Liked: 12054
Quote:
Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
Edge lit doesn't have the precision to control or modulate the different nits on each pseudo zone, it can only control 8 true zones around the edge.

you either affect the blacks or whites when trying to adjust either one.

law of physics ,a true zone base display is the way to go for HDR.

I think Scott is aware of this issue he is been writing articles about HDR since 2007.

when the edge lit display want to send high nits it have to travel trough the diffuser giving a inaccurate form of HDR.

the weakest point of the edge lit is the center.


What this HDR Samsung files do is crank the settings of the TV to max , that's what this file have been doing on the 2014 displays with the new OCB box.

in no way shape or form is this comment on topic to the article. hijack much?

82Q90R*75Q9FN(RIP)*55C8OLED*Galaxy Note10+*Ub820 fed into Oppo 203*XB1X*4k DenonX4200

MASTER LIST OF HDR CONTENT THREAD HERE, UPDATED OFTEN
ray0414 is online now  
post #7 of 114 Old 07-29-2015, 07:11 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Cleveland,Ohio
Posts: 7,043
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2987 Post(s)
Liked: 2830
Quote:
Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
in no way shape or form is this comment on topic to the article. hijack much?
why ray? before you post your HDR pictures and comments like you usually do on not related topics, I decided to post my opinion first, but! I think that I should had waited for you to make all your posts first.


I just would like to known Scott opinion about what I think about HDR on Edge lit displays.

Last edited by losservatore; 07-30-2015 at 02:00 AM.
losservatore is offline  
post #8 of 114 Old 07-29-2015, 07:14 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
ray0414's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: michigan
Posts: 16,924
Mentioned: 266 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12746 Post(s)
Liked: 12054
Quote:
Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
why ray? before you post your pictures and comments like you usually do, I'm posting my opinion.


nothing wrong with that, I would like to read Scott opinion about what I think.


if pictures can relate to topic yes, but this topic is about what scott experienced at joes house. nowhere in Scotts article did he discuss edge or fald or the the differences between oled.

IMO you did not ask Scott any questions, instead you came after me, as if you followed me into the thread to continue a grudge you seem to have with me and edge lit tvs. give it a rest for a while. now lets see if you go back and edit your post, and reword it into "questions".

82Q90R*75Q9FN(RIP)*55C8OLED*Galaxy Note10+*Ub820 fed into Oppo 203*XB1X*4k DenonX4200

MASTER LIST OF HDR CONTENT THREAD HERE, UPDATED OFTEN
ray0414 is online now  
post #9 of 114 Old 07-29-2015, 07:21 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Cleveland,Ohio
Posts: 7,043
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2987 Post(s)
Liked: 2830
Quote:
Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
if pictures can relate to topic yes, but this topic is about what scott experienced at joes house.

IMO you did not ask Scott any questions, instead you came after me, as if you followed me into the thread to continue a grudge you seem to have with me and edge lit tvs. give it a rest for a while.
Not sir I'm not following you ,there is an Active topics column on the right and HDR is been a very hot topic around the threads and you know that.

by the way joe kane have a beautiful setup ,I like the idea that he seat at the best possible distance.
ray0414 likes this.

Last edited by losservatore; 07-29-2015 at 07:26 PM.
losservatore is offline  
post #10 of 114 Old 07-29-2015, 07:41 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Fanboyz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,036
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 549 Post(s)
Liked: 167
Dynamic Range without black is worthless.
All of these innovations are still behind what Pioneer and Panasonic was doing 5 years ago.

All these new displays can only become brighter and brighter, largely negating any advance beyond 8 bits.

LG OLED65B6P. Klipsch: RF82, RC62, RS52, RB61, RP-140SA. SVS PB-U13. Denon 6300H. Oppo 103D. Oppo UPD 203.
Fanboyz is offline  
post #11 of 114 Old 07-29-2015, 07:42 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
ray0414's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: michigan
Posts: 16,924
Mentioned: 266 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12746 Post(s)
Liked: 12054
Quote:
Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
Not sir I'm not following you ,there is an Active topics column on the right and HDR is been a very hot topic around the threads and you know that.

by the way joe kane have a beautiful setup ,I like the idea that he seat at the best possible distance.

tell you what, perhaps you should ask a more detailed question on the issue in this other thread. Scott and Imagic are taking questions to which they will answer on july 31st in a podcast they are doing. that way you can get answers from BOTH of them, not just Scott. maybe they can debate it and share their experiences if they have any with said topic.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/138-av...ter-geeks.html

82Q90R*75Q9FN(RIP)*55C8OLED*Galaxy Note10+*Ub820 fed into Oppo 203*XB1X*4k DenonX4200

MASTER LIST OF HDR CONTENT THREAD HERE, UPDATED OFTEN
ray0414 is online now  
post #12 of 114 Old 07-29-2015, 09:38 PM
Mark Henninger
 
imagic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 16,094
Mentioned: 442 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9171 Post(s)
Liked: 16170
Nice that you get to stop by Joe's place, Scott. Love the 2-channel sound for the S9, that's the way to do it!

Mark Henninger
Editor, AVS Forum
imagic is offline  
post #13 of 114 Old 07-29-2015, 09:44 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 6,996
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2031 Post(s)
Liked: 1925
the idea of using CRT as the reference is something that always bothered and confused me. much like i don't agree with the idea of a home theater being about making your home like a theater.
imo, the ultimate reference should be real life. make your display as accurate as possible, make the source as accurate as possible, make the specs as accurate as possible, to REAL LIFE. directors/editors etc will still have the option to alter things to their vision, but if we aren't using real life as our ultimate goal, we get stuck in this bizarre idea that we can't make displays, or sources that exceed out-dated specs.

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1130K, 7.1/5.1.2 audio
Sources: HTPC, PS3, XBOX360, Wii
Control: Harmony One
fierce_gt is offline  
post #14 of 114 Old 07-29-2015, 09:49 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scott Wilkinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Burbank, CA
Posts: 3,258
Mentioned: 94 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1881 Post(s)
Liked: 4909
Quote:
Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
Scott, question regarding this Oblivion clip. Can you give any indication of how he got this clip, and was it the whole movie or just part? Was this Oblivion clip graded in the standard SMPTE HDR or in DV? from what I have heard this movie was graded in Dolby along with a couple others including Man of Steel also. Did it receive both HDR grades? Thats one of my favorite movies, Id love to see it in HDR!
According to Joe, he only has a clip, not the entire movie. It was supplied by Universal to use in his work with the ASC (American Society of Cinematographers). It's graded in SMPTE HDR, not Dolby Vision; I don't know if it was also graded in DV. I agree with you, I'd love to see the entire movie in HDR!
Ph8te and ray0414 like this.

Last edited by Scott Wilkinson; 07-29-2015 at 11:56 PM.
Scott Wilkinson is offline  
post #15 of 114 Old 07-29-2015, 09:56 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 6,996
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2031 Post(s)
Liked: 1925
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
Actually, 100-nit SDR with P3 color and 10 bits is not what a consumer would ever see at home, so I think this is not a good comparison to see if HDR really represents anything worthwhile. The comparison that makes the most sense to me is 100-nit/8-bit SDR with 709 color (which represents the vast majority of current consumer content) on a set calibrated for it versus content graded for 1000-nit/10-bit HDR with P3 color on a set calibrated for that. This is exactly the comparison I saw at Joe's as described in the OP, and the difference is stunning.
is it not possible to get P3 color and 10bit without HDR?
i would agree with you if that's the case, but if it's possible to get everything without having to wear sunglasses while watching tv, i'd agree with the first poster. i want to know that increase in luminosity is worth something, or not. i KNOW that improved color and bit depth will be an upgrade, so when that's 'bundled' into the comparison, it makes it's tough to know if the extra 900nits is helping, hurting, or insignificant

with any comparison, the fewer things changed the better.
mo949 and Ftoast like this.

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1130K, 7.1/5.1.2 audio
Sources: HTPC, PS3, XBOX360, Wii
Control: Harmony One
fierce_gt is offline  
post #16 of 114 Old 07-29-2015, 11:00 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
ray0414's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: michigan
Posts: 16,924
Mentioned: 266 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12746 Post(s)
Liked: 12054
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
According to Joe, he only has a clip, not the entire movie. It's graded in SMPTE HDR, not Dolby Vision; I don't know if it was also graded in DV. I agree with you, I'd love to see the entire movie in HDR!

this is a tough question, and you may not know the answer, but was this clip graded in HDR by universal or could it have been another production company?

also, i am assuming you have also seen the life of pi and exodus clips as well. Did you enjoy the oblivion clip more visually?

82Q90R*75Q9FN(RIP)*55C8OLED*Galaxy Note10+*Ub820 fed into Oppo 203*XB1X*4k DenonX4200

MASTER LIST OF HDR CONTENT THREAD HERE, UPDATED OFTEN
ray0414 is online now  
post #17 of 114 Old 07-29-2015, 11:17 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Cleveland,Ohio
Posts: 7,043
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2987 Post(s)
Liked: 2830




fierce I think both go together the 10 bit with the backlight to create HDR.

Last edited by losservatore; 07-29-2015 at 11:25 PM.
losservatore is offline  
post #18 of 114 Old 07-29-2015, 11:26 PM
Advanced Member
 
EvLee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 690
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 397 Post(s)
Liked: 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post

If content is graded for a peak brightness of 1000 nits using PQ—which is likely, at least for now—brightness values above about 80% will be clipped, since PQ is tied to a peak brightness of 10,000 nits. If the content is graded for a peak brightness of 300 nits—a common number for OLED—values above about 60% will be clipped.
I haven't read the whole post yet (it's quite long!) so I may end up doing a couple replies. First on the note of clipping - this is not correct. Clipping introduces rather objectionable artifacts and is strongly discouraged! To the point that it may be strictly disallowed. Tone mapping, on the other hand, is allowed and is actually the correct way to deal with very bright PQ values. I think your statement needs to be corrected otherwise people may arrive at the wrong impression that OLED will be clipping a great amount of highlight detail.
EvLee is offline  
post #19 of 114 Old 07-29-2015, 11:41 PM
Advanced Member
 
EvLee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 690
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 397 Post(s)
Liked: 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
In addition to all this great info, Joe also demonstrated still photos and video he had captured in HDR, displaying them on a Samsung UN65JS9500. The photos had been shot on a Nikon D800E DSLR with a native resolution of about 8K and a dynamic range of about 14 stops, which is equivalent to 14 bits. The video footage was shot on a Sony PMW-F55 digital-cinema camera with a native resolution of 4K and a dynamic range of 14 stops.

Joe doesn't know the native color gamut captured by the D800E or F55, though he says the F55 is probably very similar to the F65, whose native capture gamut is shown below. He's convinced that the D800E can capture at least Adobe RGB and probably more, but Nikon won't reveal that info, so he intends to profile the camera himself.


The Sony PMW-F65 digital-cinema camera captures a very wide native color gamut, much larger than P3. The F55 probably captures much the same native gamut.
Okay, next comment. Output devices have gamuts. Input devices like cameras don't have gamuts. They have spectral sensitivities. Those sensitivities are quite different from the human eye's. You can map the sensor output to whatever gamut you want, but ideally you'd want to do this in a way that minimizes color error versus a reference observer. This is the whole reason ACES workflow requires all cameras be provided with an input device transform from the manufacturer that maps their RAW output into the ACES gamut.

http://www.color-image.com/2012/08/a...a-color-gamut/

And that's actually my last comment. Overall a very well written article Scott. Interesting to hear that the "curve" worked for you once positioned accordingly. It's too bad that only works with an audience of one.

Last edited by EvLee; 07-29-2015 at 11:55 PM.
EvLee is offline  
post #20 of 114 Old 07-30-2015, 12:02 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scott Wilkinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Burbank, CA
Posts: 3,258
Mentioned: 94 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1881 Post(s)
Liked: 4909
Quote:
Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
this is a tough question, and you may not know the answer, but was this clip graded in HDR by universal or could it have been another production company?

also, i am assuming you have also seen the life of pi and exodus clips as well. Did you enjoy the oblivion clip more visually?
I don't know who did the grading. I have seen the Life of Pi and Exodus clips, but not in the ideal position with respect to the screen as I did with Oblivion. They are all very impressive, but I'd have to say I enjoyed the Oblivion clip more because of the circumstances.
Scott Wilkinson is offline  
post #21 of 114 Old 07-30-2015, 02:05 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 268
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 181 Post(s)
Liked: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
the idea of using CRT as the reference is something that always bothered and confused me. much like i don't agree with the idea of a home theater being about making your home like a theater.
imo, the ultimate reference should be real life. make your display as accurate as possible, make the source as accurate as possible, make the specs as accurate as possible, to REAL LIFE. directors/editors etc will still have the option to alter things to their vision, but if we aren't using real life as our ultimate goal, we get stuck in this bizarre idea that we can't make displays, or sources that exceed out-dated specs.
In real life, you don't switch between night and day in a fraction of a second! Often, a movie has to compress into 2-3 hours stories developing in a span of several days and nights.
Point is, to discern all details in scenes playing in a dark setting, you HAVE to watch the movie in a dark room, so you if calibrate the screen with a white point of a thousand or, worse, ten thousand nits, all you're accomplishing is blinding yourself.

I can't even stand movies at 100 nits in the dark, it filled my eyes with tears! I don't have any clue how you can sustain that!
Optimus_Fine is offline  
post #22 of 114 Old 07-30-2015, 02:18 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Cleveland,Ohio
Posts: 7,043
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2987 Post(s)
Liked: 2830
Quote:
Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
tell you what, perhaps you should ask a more detailed question on the issue in this other thread. Scott and Imagic are taking questions to which they will answer on july 31st in a podcast they are doing. that way you can get answers from BOTH of them, not just Scott. maybe they can debate it and share their experiences if they have any with said topic.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/138-av...ter-geeks.html
Thanks I saw the thread but some members already posted something related to my post ,I will make the question.

Thanks!
losservatore is offline  
post #23 of 114 Old 07-30-2015, 04:30 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
TMcG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Earth
Posts: 4,725
Mentioned: 96 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1657 Post(s)
Liked: 1914
Admittedly, I haven't been following the gyrations of HDR and the new standards being proposed very closely, so your article summarized the current state of affairs very nicely.

I'm also glad there are people like Joe Kane advocating for what amounts to a very robust standard for video reproduction, thereby removing any practical limitations on content creators from offering a quality level that will not be constrained by inadequate and limited display standards.
@Scott Wilkinson - How were these signals being transferred to the displays....HDMI 2.0a? DisplayPort? Thunderbolt? Direct USB 3.0 connection? And as I said above, it's nice that Joe is an advocate for a very wide display standard, but I am sure the associated bandwidth needed to transfer that much data would be huge. Did Joe mention anything related to his preferred connection standard? As I understand it, more than half of the available 18Gbps HDMI 2.0 bandwidth is used up by HDCP 2.2. This is bandwidth that could otherwise be used for increased resolution, color depth, HDR and 3D audio formats - not to mention higher frame rates and the eventual addition of 3D 4K. I was curious if Joe had any comment on this limitation.
TMcG is offline  
post #24 of 114 Old 07-30-2015, 05:29 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
KidHorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Derwood, Maryland
Posts: 5,442
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1861 Post(s)
Liked: 1286
Will all the UHD blu-ray players support HDR and/or WCG? Or will it be a premium feature?
KidHorn is offline  
post #25 of 114 Old 07-30-2015, 05:35 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
KidHorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Derwood, Maryland
Posts: 5,442
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1861 Post(s)
Liked: 1286
Quote:
Originally Posted by Optimus_Fine View Post
In real life, you don't switch between night and day in a fraction of a second! Often, a movie has to compress into 2-3 hours stories developing in a span of several days and nights.
Point is, to discern all details in scenes playing in a dark setting, you HAVE to watch the movie in a dark room, so you if calibrate the screen with a white point of a thousand or, worse, ten thousand nits, all you're accomplishing is blinding yourself.

I can't even stand movies at 100 nits in the dark, it filled my eyes with tears! I don't have any clue how you can sustain that!
Can HDR be turned off or have a max brightness setting?
Will there be non-HDR TVs available in say 5 years from now?
Will projectors support HDR?
KidHorn is offline  
post #26 of 114 Old 07-30-2015, 05:37 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
KidHorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Derwood, Maryland
Posts: 5,442
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1861 Post(s)
Liked: 1286
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
As I understand it, more than half of the available 18Gbps HDMI 2.0 bandwidth is used up by HDCP 2.2.
I wasn't aware. This is absurd. Why does it need so much bandwidth?
KidHorn is offline  
post #27 of 114 Old 07-30-2015, 05:47 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SiGGy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Lenexa, Kansas
Posts: 1,440
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 551 Post(s)
Liked: 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post

The range of brightness values using 10 bits is four times the range of 8 bits.
This is properly called "contrast resolution". Which is the number of steps from black to white. Not sure why Joe isn't using this term.

Studies were done long ago on contrast resolution for medical imaging devices for what we're capable of seeing. Without training it's close to 700 shades; with eye training closer to 900 to 1000. (shades of gray) This is data is from medical imaging studies...

8 bits with it's paltry contrast resolution of 218 (shades) is really inadequate. Not sure why anyone would be surprised 10bits looks much better. Sure some BR dics have been mastered to look OK in 8 bits for some scenes; but I'm quite sure people have noticed other scenes then look flat. Squishing everything into 8 bits was an art in itself; but it was also at a huge loss from the original material.

In old arguments about black levels; i was trying to push this concept. Sure having a low MLL really low is nice; but in a 8bit world it really just creates even more distance between shades. Making it even more obvious as there isn't enough contrast resolution to show anything of detail down that low anyway... So I guess one benefit to really low MLL is it can help hide noise down that low in 8 bit material.

While on the topic I was kind a hoping HDR would offer a "sliding window" for luminance. So you could map the **FULL** 0-1024 (10bits) to a range of luminance depending on the need. I.E. from 0 nits to say 100nits have the full range. Then on another scene have the window slide to 0 to 1000 if needed. Or even say 30 nits to 120 nits if the scene called for it. This would get complicated but it would be cool... of course if we simply had 12 or 14 bit video there would be no need for this. Basically what Im talking about gives you the full luminance resolution for any/every scene.

Last edited by SiGGy; 07-30-2015 at 10:15 AM.
SiGGy is offline  
post #28 of 114 Old 07-30-2015, 06:35 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
pittsoccer33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,117
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 657 Post(s)
Liked: 434
All of this sounds like a nightmare for HDMI reliability.

My basement media room and bar
Epson 2030, Onkyo TX-NR626, and Kodi based system

Mironto's Panasonic plasma black level restoration guide
Restore the initial MLL on a 2009 Panasonic plasma
pittsoccer33 is offline  
post #29 of 114 Old 07-30-2015, 07:27 AM
Member
 
Ryan Hendry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 90
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked: 34
I thoroughly enjoyed this post. Bravo Scott!
SiGGy likes this.
Ryan Hendry is offline  
post #30 of 114 Old 07-30-2015, 08:11 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
8mile13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 7,623
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2427 Post(s)
Liked: 1418
Joe Kane has what looks like a PS3 and a AV receiver at the house. Does he uses the PS3 for the HDR/P3 clip?
8mile13 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Latest Industry News

Tags
ce week 2015 , frontpage , hdr

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off