Sharp Pulls Out of North America TV Market, Licenses Brand to HiSense - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 164 Old 08-02-2015, 09:01 AM
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You completely missed the point. It's not a "LED TV", it's a LCD TV with LED backlighting. A HUGE difference naming difference, hence the 'con'.

.
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Recording free OTA TV for 'time shifting' has been here since 1975. Will there be DVR's to do the same when ATSC3 obsoletes existing DVR's??
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post #92 of 164 Old 08-02-2015, 09:11 AM
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A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...The first japanese post-war TV.



Sharp TV3-14T (1953).
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post #93 of 164 Old 08-02-2015, 11:06 AM
 
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There is definitely going to be consolidation in the display market as the Chinese flood the market in the low and mid range. So let's see what we are going to be left with in the US market. Off the top of my head these are a few I can remember.

Made By:
Sharp = Hisense
Toshiba = Compal
JVC = Amtran
Panasonic = LGD
Vizio = Sharp, LG, Amtran?
Samsung - Samsung Display, ChinaStar (CSOT)
Sony = AUO, Hon Hai/Foxconn
LG = LGD, ?
? = Innolux (ChiMei)
TCL = TCL
Hisense = Hisense
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post #94 of 164 Old 08-02-2015, 11:34 AM
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Correct me if I'm wrong but wasnt 4K supposed to be this new tech that was supposed to help tv sales? With Sharps exit from the tv buisness I guess thats not the case.
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post #95 of 164 Old 08-02-2015, 11:45 AM
 
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post
There is definitely going to be consolidation in the display market as the Chinese flood the market in the low and mid range. So let's see what we are going to be left with in the US market. Off the top of my head these are a few I can remember.

Made By:
Sharp = Hisense
Toshiba = Compal
JVC = Amtran
Panasonic = LGD


Sony = AUO, Hon Hai/Foxconn
LG = LGD, ?
? = Innolux (ChiMei)
TCL = TCL
Hisense = Hisense
There seems to be some confusion beween TV mfrs and display panel mfrs .


Panasonic uses IPS and I belive mostly VA panels now presumably AUO and LGD for 2015 and Amtran makes a lot of thier TV's



Vizio = uses mostly AUO and Sharp panels Amtran owns a 25% equity share in Vizio and makes some sets for them along with Compal and maybe a few others to Vizio Specs .

Amtran owns some discount brands like Magnavox and Poloraoid and others and also owns the Phillips TV business now .

LGD = LG display which is separate from LG eletcronics (TV etc.) but same parent company .

I belive LG Electronics makes most or all of thier TV's and mostly LGD panels but that *may vary * they have some back lit models with unkown (to me) VA panels .

Innolux (ChiMei) is a panel maker .


Hisense = Hisense , Best Buy house brands like Dynex and Insignia TV and the Best buy exclusive Sharp product and has recently aqqiured at least the the brand licence to make broad market Sharp TV products the Panels can vary.
Presumably the Sharp Quatron and Quatron + sets will remain in the Sharp product line and use Sharp panels .

Samsung and Samsung Display are like LG separate companies but same parent company . Samsung TV's are all VA panels or LCD Cells from Samsung Display ,Sharp,AUO ,ChinaStar (CSOT) and maybe a few Innolux (ChiMei) panels .I belive Samsung makes the majority of thier own sets outside of the PRC.

Sony TV is an owned Sony inc. Subsiderary mostly Hon Hai Precision Foxconn assembled LCD cell> panels and OEM TV product to Sonys specification
Sony uses mostly Cells/ Panels from AUO and Innolux (ChiMei) and Samsung & a few LG panels.

TCL is TCL (used to be all the RCA TV's under a brand licence ) and they may have a joint venture panel fab with Samsung or LG ?
I belive they use various VA panels .

RCA is made by On corp. in ROK now mostly value priced sets presumably Samsung panels .


Toshiiba for the most part are Compal and Amtran made TV's to Toshiba spec for the most part panels can vary and they exited USA and E.U. markets recently .

Tecnicolor SA (formerly Thompson SA ) owns the RCA and some other legacy brands and licences the brands to thier respective mfrs.




Samsung ,LG and Sony in othat order have the largsest global market share by volume with Sony closley followed by TCL.

The top 10 leading TV brands includes four more representative of the PRC: Hisense (5th place), Skyworth (6th), Konka (7th) , and Changhong (9th) outside of the PRC is Vizio ( 8th) and the 10th is Sharp.
http://www.hardware-boom.com/named-l...-lcd-tvs-2014/
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post #96 of 164 Old 08-02-2015, 01:04 PM
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"A lot of the tribal knowledge and skill sets are gone because the humans who used to do that work have either retired or died," says H. Kim Kelley. So don't hold your breath for any new tv plants. The newest tv plant in the world is Element Electronics plant in South Carolina, and it is for "assembled in the USA" status for walmart, Target, etc. So i am sure what is out there will absorb what is gone.

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.

Some servers can do non-encrypted playback to an A/V projector, but it's just a ridiculously expensive media player if you don't have a cinema projector.
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post #97 of 164 Old 08-02-2015, 02:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
"A lot of the tribal knowledge and skill sets are gone because the humans who used to do that work have either retired or died," says H. Kim Kelley. So don't hold your breath for any new tv plants. The newest tv plant in the world is Element Electronics plant in South Carolina, and it is for "assembled in the USA" status for walmart, Target, etc. So i am sure what is out there will absorb what is gone.
OTOH it may be Kim Kelley doesent know anything much about manufaturing processes or is more likley just blowing hot air , for example If they can teach folks how to assemble supersonic stealth military aircraft and manned earth orbit vehicles and super computers or anthing else you care to name I don't think assembling a TV is to much of a challenge in the PRC ,USA or anywhere these days ' tribal knowledge ' not withstanding. for instance the tribal knowledge of asembling a 1974- 1984 Chevrolet doesent apply so well to a 2015 Chevrolet assy line in a modern assy plant they dont even bring the powertains and bodys together like thay used to on most of the assy lines

FWIW at some point they started from scratch with many newer manufacturing and assy plants in Mexico for just about anthing you care to name including Audi's ,BMW's,Fords and Chevys and just trained the workforce and trainers with folks from the home office ☻☻

OTOH What does not exist in the USA however that he failed to mention is a supply chain for TV's at scale beyond imported knock down kits for Element TV's and Southern Electronics TV's aka Sceptre TV 's but on the other hand Oppo electronics seems to manage pretty well with whatever they do here product wise

......And they dont manufacture anthing much at Element Elecronics or Southern Electronics both are assembly plants and nothing more than that and thats not a manufacturing plant by any strecth of the imagination

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post #98 of 164 Old 08-02-2015, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by stef2 View Post
It is no wonder TV vendors are havine a hard time those days...They seem to want us buy a new TV every 2-3 years. But why? Even technology freaks like me don't do that...broadcast isn't even close to being good quality HD, the only thing that matches my (4) TV and my (1) projector capabilities is a good quality bluray (most of them are not). My current, 6 years old main TV can take a lot more than what my family currently feeds it. So, when I hear about 4K, curved panels, HDR of whatsoever, I grin. Most consumers don't grin, they simply don't care...
you sir are talking too logically and in a real world fashion....

Many here on AVS dont take real world into their ideas and try to talk up the next "big thing" every 12 months

Too bad there are not enough of them to keep the TV manufacturers in the black....the other 95%+of consumers seem to dictate the market
I bought a 65" 4K Sony X850B three weeks ago for $800 new in box...I think that was 75% off retail and probably 60% off what people were paying for them just 8 months ago
When something can depreciate that fast it speaks to demand

Warren
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post #99 of 164 Old 08-02-2015, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve1971 View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasnt 4K supposed to be this new tech that was supposed to help tv sales? With Sharps exit from the tv buisness I guess thats not the case.
the issue is they have flooded the market...ad each season they try to come up with something new to get you in the market again
4K is not enough to get someone out...generally speaking...to buy a new TV
Really....how much 4 K do you think there will be in the next 2-3 years even?

Another coffin nail symbol was how fast the prices fell on the 4K Tv's.......
I guess the demand wasnt there

I predict another player bowing out in the next 2-3 years and I am almost betting on Sony being that company

Warren

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post #100 of 164 Old 08-02-2015, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
OTOH it may be Kim Kelley doesent know anything much about manufaturing processes or is more likley just blowing hot air , for example If they can teach folks how to assemble supersonic stealth military aircraft and manned earth orbit vehicles and super computers or anthing else you care to name I don't think assembling a TV is to much of a challenge in the PRC ,USA or anywhere these days ' tribal knowledge ' not withstanding. for instance the tribal knowledge of asembling a 1974- 1984 Chevrolet doesent apply so well to a 2015 Chevrolet assy line in a modern assy plant they dont even bring the powertains and bodys together like thay used to on most of the assy lines

FWIW at some point they started from scratch with many newer manufacturing and assy plants in Mexico for just about anthing you care to name including Audi's ,BMW's,Fords and Chevys and just trained the workforce and trainers with folks from the home office ☻☻

OTOH What does not exist in the USA however that he failed to mention is a supply chain for TV's at scale beyond imported knock down kits for Element TV's and Southern Electronics TV's aka Sceptre TV 's but on the other hand Oppo electronics seems to manage pretty well with whatever they do here product wise

......And they dont manufacture anthing much at Element Elecronics or Southern Electronics both are assembly plants and nothing more than that and thats not a manufacturing plant by any strecth of the imagination
When RCA opened it's Mexico plant late 1960's, that was the end of TV manufacturing in the US. Element and Southern electronics just put the pieces together, unlike any other TV maker, they are allowed to slap Assembled in the USA on it and get huge discounts, that even LG and Samsung is jealous of.

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.

Some servers can do non-encrypted playback to an A/V projector, but it's just a ridiculously expensive media player if you don't have a cinema projector.
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post #101 of 164 Old 08-02-2015, 05:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
When RCA opened it's Mexico plant late 1960's, that was the end of TV manufacturing in the US. Element and Southern electronics just put the pieces together, unlike any other TV maker, they are allowed to slap Assembled in the USA on it and get huge discounts, that even LG and Samsung is jealous of.

AFIK Magvavox manufactured TV's in the US long after 1962 I had a 1979 Magnavox set that was made in Ft Wayne Ind. Zenith hung on a while after that but at some point they were assembing the sets in Mexico before LG bought the brand My first Sony Trinton a 1994 27"was assembled in SanDiego Cal.

On August 2, 1991, the 25th millionth TV or Magnavox TV was produced in Greeneville ill.

Magnavox Plant #3 was built in 1962 in Greeneville. It was the largest TV manufacturing plant under one roof in the country.
Allegedly the last TV made in America was built in the (origionally ) Magnavox > then Phillips Magnavox Plant #3 in July 2005. It was made by Five Rivers Technology, the successor to Philips Consumer Electronics operations in Greeneville. It carried the AKAI label.

IIRC GE bought out RCA and GE TV in ~ 1986 and sold them to Thompson SA shortly later

In about 1980, RCA corporate strategy reported on moving manufacture of its television sets to Mexico. RCA was still profitable in 1983, when it switched manufacturing of its VHS VCRs from Panasonic to Hitachi. -wikipedia-



Here is a timeline for some US brand TV sets from 1947- 2000

http://www.tvhistory.tv/1960-2000-TVManufacturers.htm

Admiral 1947- 1979

Magnavox 1948-1976
Magnavox (Philips) 1976 to date (2000)

Emerson 1947-1973

General Electric 1947-1986

Hoffman (Cortron Ind) 1948-1970

Motorola 1947-1974
Muntz (Howard Radio) 1948-1973

Packard Bell 1948-1974

Philco (Philco-Ford) 1947-1976

RCA 1946-1986

RCA Thompson 1986 - to date (2000 )

Sylvania 1949-1983

Warwick 1951-1977
Wells-Gardner 1948-1990
Westinghouse 1947-1969


Zenith 1948 to date (2000)

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post #102 of 164 Old 08-02-2015, 06:28 PM
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Sharp makes crummy LED/LCD's anyway. Too much judder in the picture.

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post #103 of 164 Old 08-03-2015, 04:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
AFIK Magvavox manufactured TV's in the US long after 1962
Here is a timeline for some US brand TV sets from 1947- 2000

http://www.tvhistory.tv/1960-2000-TVManufacturers.htm

Admiral 1947- 1979

Magnavox 1948-1976
Magnavox (Philips) 1976 to date (2000)

Emerson 1947-1973

General Electric 1947-1986

Hoffman (Cortron Ind) 1948-1970

Motorola 1947-1974
Muntz (Howard Radio) 1948-1973

Packard Bell 1948-1974

Philco (Philco-Ford) 1947-1976

RCA 1946-1986

RCA Thompson 1986 - to date (2000 )

Sylvania 1949-1983

Warwick 1951-1977
Wells-Gardner 1948-1990
Westinghouse 1947-1969


Zenith 1948 to date (2000)

You left out the only wholly owned American electronics firm and the only American Television manufacturer from the 1960's to the 1980's: Curtis Mathes.
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post #104 of 164 Old 08-03-2015, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post
When I was selling HDTVs at Sears Sharp and Toshiba were the "step down" brands from Samsung, Panasonic, and Sony.

They were in this nebulous space between those "premium" brands and the junk. So it was kind of a hard sell.
Lol! Samsung is as "premium" in televisions as Bose is in sound. Marketing doesn't mean reality.
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post #105 of 164 Old 08-03-2015, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
the issue is they have flooded the market...ad each season they try to come up with something new to get you in the market again
4K is not enough to get someone out...generally speaking...to buy a new TV
Really....how much 4 K do you think there will be in the next 2-3 years even?

Another coffin nail symbol was how fast the prices fell on the 4K Tv's.......
I guess the demand wasnt there

I predict another player bowing out in the next 2-3 years and I am almost betting on Sony being that company

Warren

I agree with you 100%. I believe the next company to bow out will be Panasonic. Sony will stick around a little while longer after that then pull the plug. Personally I hope I'm wrong about Sony because I am a Sony guy but if they think, or anyone else for that matter, that 4K is going to be the saving grace then they are gonna be wrong and why? Because its like you said the demand is just not there. Alot of us HT geeks like 4K, some even love it, but the average joe blow couldnt care less.
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post #106 of 164 Old 08-03-2015, 01:02 PM
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Why is it that the TV manufacturing business wound up with such slim margins that virtually every Japanese maker can't compete? I get that lots of competition leads to lower margins until they are razor thin, but not every industry, even with robust competition, cannibalizes itself.


What I mean is, why is it different than the car business, or other businesses? The car business is obviously mature and has been around forever. There are an absolutely huge number of manufacturers that span from ultra luxury all the way down to inexpensive utilitarian, and yet they all seem to make money and keep making cars. I know GM had issues in the 2008 recession, but has recovered. Normally, there are dozens of manufacturers making money. Why is it that even with all the competition, Honda (for example, or Chevy, or Hyundai or Mercedes) can make cars and get people to pay enough over the cost to manufacture them (total margin) that Honda the manufacturer makes a profit, Honda of America the distributor makes a profit, and the local dealer makes enough profit (and shares some with the salesperson) to keep in business, and a rather handsome business?

I don't get why the TV business so cannibalizes itself that almost no one can make a substantial margin anymore. Even those making money like Vizio (and I assume Samsung and LG and even the Chinese manufacturers) have a tiny profit/revenue percentage.
So this is a great question and if I ever get more time, I'll write a longer response.

In the short term, though, understand this: TV is a consumer business building a mostly commodity, discretionary product. Autos -- which are far more boom/bust than perhaps you realize as Kia, Chrysler, Mazda and many others have struggled mightily in recent years -- are a consumer and business product. There is a ton of differentiation. They represent status in ways TVs rarely do (except here at AVS!). They have all sorts of weird utilitarian function components (e.g. you have a baby, you buy a minivan; you start a home-improvement business, you buy a pickup).

That said, autos don't have great margins. They have good margins. They are super expensive to build so it's very, very hard to become a new entrant. Vizio, by contrast, was started by a handful of guys with industry expertise and a bit of capital. And because TVs are commodity and warehouse clubs have great return policies, Vizio could get by early on selling a limited aesthetic at a good price even while the quality failed to stack up.

As the posts about American TV makers note, mfg. of televisions was once a U.S. thing. They the Japanese came along when the yen was >200 to the dollar and offered an attractive product for less money. American TV died off very quickly thereafter.

When the HD / flat-panel transition came, it misled the TV industry into believing there would be a "new cycle" where instead of 6-8 years between purchases -- not terribly far from how often folks buy cars, by the cars -- they'd start buying a new TV every 2-4 years. This led to massive over-investment in LCD fabrication which rapidly commoditized the core piece of flat-panel TVs. That allowed for years of rapidly declining prices, which helped speed the HD / flat-panel transition globally. What it did not do was motivate people to purchase again more often. The idea this would happen was predicated on nonsensical comparisons to cellular phones. A better way of looking at this is say a really cool innovation comes to cars (e.g. long range electrics that cost the equivalent of $1 per gallon to operate but are priced like gasoline cars, self-driving cars that come with much lower insurance and hands-free commuting). People might collectively upgrade to that much faster than normal -- this is the "HDTV of cars" -- but they wouldn't upgrade yet again soon after.

TV learned this lesson the hard way and as such Sony has lost money nearly every quarter for more than a decade selling TVs (few exceptions don't disprove this). Sony is a huge TV seller and yet records losses! They are also not vertically integrated, which has proved to be a way of ensuring losses and took out Toshiba, Mitsubishi (flat panel side, their insistence on sticking with RPTV was another titanic error), Sanyo... and counting. Vertical integration, though, was no panacea as Sharp proved by failing to heed the lessons of what came before and never recovering from over-investing in capacity nor from a period of endaka -- the yen being highly valued -- which devastated Sharp in solar and television at the same time.

In sum, these are different industries with different characteristics. Innovation is no guarantee of success (look to hard drives, where the innovation curve exceeds any industry ever and yet few firms have survived, let alone sustained interesting profits). And huge strategic errors almost certainly produce failure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post
agreed: my Elite 70 Pro is still going strong:

hope it stays that way because I don't see another 70 inch display on the market that comes close except for the Sony 950...but for those speakers

but as Rogo says, Sharp's demise was inevitable
That the Sony is close is bullish. That Sony might be the brand name on a Chinese company seeking to establish credibility in N. Amer. and Europe soon is less so.

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Originally Posted by steve1971 View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasnt 4K supposed to be this new tech that was supposed to help tv sales? With Sharps exit from the tv buisness I guess thats not the case.
So, here's the thing. The industry mistakenly believes everything is a catalyst for a great new wave of success. They believed this about 3-D too. They insanely though "smart TVs" would ignite sales. They believed this about "thinness". They believed this to an extent about size.

The only two things that have changed the trajectory of TV sales in any interesting way are

(1) The above-mentioned HD/flat-panel transition
(2) An improving global economy

Unfortunately for the TV industry (1) will never be repeated and while (2) has happened certainly since the nadir of 2008, there is an upper limit to TV sales. You can't really use one in a place where there isn't reliable electricity and space to enjoy it. Most of the developed world that wants a TV has one. Little of the world moves from "developing" to developed in a given year. And worse still for TV, there is a new mitigator. People love video more than they love TV. In much of Asia, the preferred video viewing device is a phone/phablet/tablet. That's become more true in N. Amer. and Europe over time, too.

There cannot realistically be a long-term upswing in TV sales. Electronics are better placed in a small box (e.g. AppleTV, Roku) that can be improved via apps or replaced cheaply. The TV is moving towards an appliance again -- a screen that receives input. It is mostly good enough for 99% of viewers. It will be replaced when it wears out or if there is another discontinuous technology (e.g. transparent, super-light screens that can offer pictures of many sizes depending on content and desire but almost literally disappear when not in use).

Until then, the industry will continue to fight over a similarly sized market year after year. New entrants from Chinese will squeeze incumbents with pricing that is lower based on newer factories with lower costs (Chinese labor isn't especially cheap anymore, but it also won't hurt).

There is no reason to believe a renaissance is coming here anymore than in personal computers. Neither is going away, but neither will again be the industry it once was either.

There's a saying about "everything in moderation". If only it was applied to well, you know...
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post #107 of 164 Old 08-03-2015, 01:39 PM
 
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You left out the only wholly owned American electronics firm and the only American Television manufacturer from the 1960's to the 1980's: Curtis Mathes.
I know but after the 1960's or 70's they were just putting NEC chasis assys in CM cabinets anyway .

My parents had a huge 21" roundie CM color combo in the early 1960's during CM's best years the cabinet was real nice and all better than most .

The TV was a CTC 12 clone ,the 6 speaker stereo was p/p el84/ 6BQ5 nothing special but OK for a combo set or a console back then it had FM stereo and a BSR record grinder . It got replaced by a much better Magnavox combo in 1970 .

Zenith ,RCA and Magnavox were all still here from the 1960's to the 1980's and a little beyond that and Wells-Gardner who made a lot of private brands and probably Sears stuff was here till 1990.

RCA got sold to GE in 1986 and Thompson SA later so CM wasnt the only one here from the 1960's to 1980's and by the '80's AFAIK they were only making tthe cabinets and stuffing them with NEC stuff anyways

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post #108 of 164 Old 08-03-2015, 08:01 PM
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sharp lost my business when they tried to convince me yellow pixels were necessary...

but regardless of that, i don't feel great about companies buying brand names. it's one thing to buy technology/patents/etc and start producing products under your own name. i think it's the opposite when you buy a name to put on your own product.

then again, smart shopping should prevent it from being an issue to me. but i just see it as a further 'lowering of the bar' when it comes to display quality. it's already hard/impossible to get a high end display. if we start replacing the 'mid-range' quality displays that are currently at the top end of the market with cheaply made chinese ones hiding behind other brand names that's not helping anybody. i mean i don't mind buying a hisense tv. for the money they seem to be ok, and i don't need reference quality for every display in my house. but i might actually avoid buying a sharp branded hisense tv, as i'm pretty sure they will be more expensive for the exact same electronics
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post #109 of 164 Old 08-04-2015, 05:08 AM
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Lol! Samsung is as "premium" in televisions as Bose is in sound. Marketing doesn't mean reality.

They make good TV's. Their TVs for the past few years have been reviewed as having the most accurate color out of the box and often post calibration as well.


http://www.cnet.com/products/samsung-unf6300/2/ The lower end F6300. Black level is too low so picture is a bit washed out, but super accurate colors.


http://www.cnet.com/products/samsung-unf8000/2/ F8000


http://www.cnet.com/products/samsung-unjs8500-series/2/ J8500. The reviewer states that "..colors on the JS8500 were superb and extremely accurate. According to my measurements it's one of the most accurate TVs I've ever tested after calibration, delivering grayscale/gamma and color errors below 1 (3 or less is considered below human perception)."


How does that not qualify as premium?

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post #110 of 164 Old 08-04-2015, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by NuSoardGraphite View Post
They make good TV's. Their TVs for the past few years have been reviewed as having the most accurate color out of the box and often post calibration as well.

(snip)


How does that not qualify as premium?

See the Kuro for details.
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post #111 of 164 Old 08-04-2015, 06:00 AM
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R.I.P., Quattron!
The marketing always claimed wide gamut, but the tech was only
being used to gin up the brightness of whites. LED backlighting
was the culprit, with the blue primary and the yellow phosphor.
Spectros was supposedly an improvement, improving the reds and
adding a bluer green to actually spread the spectrum in mid-wavelengths.
I had a 2011 model with poor performance in reds and too much blue.
It failed under warranty and I received 2014's top of the line UQ17U.
It made huge strides in balancing the colors, but was (is) still deficient
in cyan and deep greens.
I never saw the Quattron Plus with Spectros color in 4K+ in stores.
Meanwhile, my 10 year old Toshiba Regza CCFL has better color gamut!
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post #112 of 164 Old 08-04-2015, 06:57 AM
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I remember asking a Sharp rep about yellow pixels muddying up the accuracy. I'm fairly certain he said in cinema mode (or whatever it was called) that it disables the yellow, or did something else to pretend they weren't there

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post #113 of 164 Old 08-04-2015, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blu-dog-avs View Post
See the Kuro for details.

Oh, I've seen it. It's great.


But it's dead.


That means the bar for "premium" if you are in the market for a new TV has been moved.


It is what it is. For new TVs available, Sony and Samsung represent the top of the heap now.
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post #114 of 164 Old 08-04-2015, 08:08 AM
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Maybe Hisense with have some "sense" and come out with more full array local dimming sets to compete with Vizio. Something Sharp was anything but 'sharp' in their marketing.
When a manufacture tries to sell sets with panels that look like this, what can one expect??
This reminds me of my first and only venture into an LCD tv as my primary viewing television. It was the Sony XBR when they first came out. I was seeing the cloudy blacks as well. I took it back to the Sony Store. When they asked why, I told them. They didn't believe me, so I asked them to allow me to educate them. They set the tv up in a dark room. Lights went out. They understood and had no problem refunding me my money. There was one doofus who made a sarcastic comment and the irrelevance of a cloudy screen since there is no image. He left before I could comment, but I ripped into him to his manager. With Sony Store closing shop, that guy might be selling tvs now at WalMart.

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post #115 of 164 Old 08-04-2015, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NuSoardGraphite View Post
Oh, I've seen it. It's great.


But it's dead.


That means the bar for "premium" if you are in the market for a new TV has been moved.


It is what it is. For new TVs available, Sony and Samsung represent the top of the heap now.
As i see it we are in the the midst of a transition from emissive Plasma being premium to emissive OLED being premium. That makes transmissive LCd sort of premium-ish right now in this transition period. Enjoy it while it lasts
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post #116 of 164 Old 08-04-2015, 09:18 AM
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My first LCD TV was a Sharp 42" TV 8 years ago. It has been a great TV, still works, moved it down the road and gave it to my parents almost 2 years ago. It was so good, that when we needed to replace a TV in our bedroom, we bought another Sharp TV 3 years ago. We got a good deal, but it was not as nice as the older one. Had some problems with the apps, it was a really thin LED one, with the cheapest speakers. Soon after, I really wished we had gotten a similarly priced LG. This TV lasted about a year and a half. It kicked off the great soundbar expedition for the bedroom. and was replaced with a P series Vizio. Sharp is on the same list as Samsung with me due to problems I have had with their TVs, although I am more likely to give Samsung another try in the future.
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post #117 of 164 Old 08-04-2015, 11:31 AM
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So this is a great question and if I ever get more time, I'll write a longer response.

In the short term, though, understand this: TV is a consumer business building a mostly commodity, discretionary product. Autos -- which are far more boom/bust than perhaps you realize as Kia, Chrysler, Mazda and many others have struggled mightily in recent years -- are a consumer and business product. There is a ton of differentiation. They represent status in ways TVs rarely do (except here at AVS!). They have all sorts of weird utilitarian function components (e.g. you have a baby, you buy a minivan; you start a home-improvement business, you buy a pickup).

That said, autos don't have great margins. They have good margins. They are super expensive to build so it's very, very hard to become a new entrant. Vizio, by contrast, was started by a handful of guys with industry expertise and a bit of capital. And because TVs are commodity and warehouse clubs have great return policies, Vizio could get by early on selling a limited aesthetic at a good price even while the quality failed to stack up.

As the posts about American TV makers note, mfg. of televisions was once a U.S. thing. They the Japanese came along when the yen was >200 to the dollar and offered an attractive product for less money. American TV died off very quickly thereafter.

When the HD / flat-panel transition came, it misled the TV industry into believing there would be a "new cycle" where instead of 6-8 years between purchases -- not terribly far from how often folks buy cars, by the cars -- they'd start buying a new TV every 2-4 years. This led to massive over-investment in LCD fabrication which rapidly commoditized the core piece of flat-panel TVs. That allowed for years of rapidly declining prices, which helped speed the HD / flat-panel transition globally. What it did not do was motivate people to purchase again more often. The idea this would happen was predicated on nonsensical comparisons to cellular phones. A better way of looking at this is say a really cool innovation comes to cars (e.g. long range electrics that cost the equivalent of $1 per gallon to operate but are priced like gasoline cars, self-driving cars that come with much lower insurance and hands-free commuting). People might collectively upgrade to that much faster than normal -- this is the "HDTV of cars" -- but they wouldn't upgrade yet again soon after.

TV learned this lesson the hard way and as such Sony has lost money nearly every quarter for more than a decade selling TVs (few exceptions don't disprove this). Sony is a huge TV seller and yet records losses! They are also not vertically integrated, which has proved to be a way of ensuring losses and took out Toshiba, Mitsubishi (flat panel side, their insistence on sticking with RPTV was another titanic error), Sanyo... and counting. Vertical integration, though, was no panacea as Sharp proved by failing to heed the lessons of what came before and never recovering from over-investing in capacity nor from a period of endaka -- the yen being highly valued -- which devastated Sharp in solar and television at the same time.

In sum, these are different industries with different characteristics. Innovation is no guarantee of success (look to hard drives, where the innovation curve exceeds any industry ever and yet few firms have survived, let alone sustained interesting profits). And huge strategic errors almost certainly produce failure.



That the Sony is close is bullish. That Sony might be the brand name on a Chinese company seeking to establish credibility in N. Amer. and Europe soon is less so.



So, here's the thing. The industry mistakenly believes everything is a catalyst for a great new wave of success. They believed this about 3-D too. They insanely though "smart TVs" would ignite sales. They believed this about "thinness". They believed this to an extent about size.

The only two things that have changed the trajectory of TV sales in any interesting way are

(1) The above-mentioned HD/flat-panel transition
(2) An improving global economy

Unfortunately for the TV industry (1) will never be repeated and while (2) has happened certainly since the nadir of 2008, there is an upper limit to TV sales. You can't really use one in a place where there isn't reliable electricity and space to enjoy it. Most of the developed world that wants a TV has one. Little of the world moves from "developing" to developed in a given year. And worse still for TV, there is a new mitigator. People love video more than they love TV. In much of Asia, the preferred video viewing device is a phone/phablet/tablet. That's become more true in N. Amer. and Europe over time, too.

There cannot realistically be a long-term upswing in TV sales. Electronics are better placed in a small box (e.g. AppleTV, Roku) that can be improved via apps or replaced cheaply. The TV is moving towards an appliance again -- a screen that receives input. It is mostly good enough for 99% of viewers. It will be replaced when it wears out or if there is another discontinuous technology (e.g. transparent, super-light screens that can offer pictures of many sizes depending on content and desire but almost literally disappear when not in use).

Until then, the industry will continue to fight over a similarly sized market year after year. New entrants from Chinese will squeeze incumbents with pricing that is lower based on newer factories with lower costs (Chinese labor isn't especially cheap anymore, but it also won't hurt).

There is no reason to believe a renaissance is coming here anymore than in personal computers. Neither is going away, but neither will again be the industry it once was either.

Well said rogo and spot on!

Quote:
Originally Posted by NuSoardGraphite View Post
Oh, I've seen it. It's great.


But it's dead.


That means the bar for "premium" if you are in the market for a new TV has been moved.


It is what it is. For new TVs available, Sony and Samsung represent the top of the heap now.

Samsung may represent the top of the heap and Sony once did but not anymore. And yes the Kuro may be dead as you say but at the time it was the best you could get and some consider it still the best. And you said the "premium" bar has been moved if you are in the market for a new tv. Where has it been moved? 4K? If thats the case then they have alot of work to do.
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post #118 of 164 Old 08-04-2015, 01:10 PM
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Videophile premium is an intellectually degenerate concept. PQ pertains to sensation and primitive perception. In appreciating PQ one is operating at the level of an insect. More advanced animals have evolved to appreciate information abstracted from the perceptual substrata. When watching football, one is concerned with the abstract geometric relationship between player X, the ball and goal, etc. The precise colour of the grass is an irrelevance. Unless you are an ant in it.

This is why ordinary people do not care about PQ. It is not that they are crude. We are the crude insect-types. While they are operating at a higher-order information processing level, we are obsessing about the hue of some pixels.

Chimpanzees are obsessed with bananas and each has to be just so. They look across at us and consider us unrefined, because bananaphile subtleties are lost on us.
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post #119 of 164 Old 08-04-2015, 05:34 PM
 
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Chimpanzees are obsessed with bananas and each has to be just so. They look across at us and consider us unrefined, because bananaphile subtleties are lost on us.
bananaphile/audiophile ............... LMAO !
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post #120 of 164 Old 08-05-2015, 06:11 PM
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About the Kuro:


Quote:
Originally Posted by NuSoardGraphite View Post
Oh, I've seen it. It's great.


But it's dead.

Yeah, but the corpse is still whoopin ass. We all know it, too.


Here's the problem: Sharp's "premium" sets still don't hold a candle to it, and we all know, they never really did. Buying the "Elite" nameplate was a pitiful whine admitting as much.



Quote:
Originally Posted by NuSoardGraphite View Post
That means the bar for "premium" if you are in the market for a new TV has been moved.


It is what it is. For new TVs available, Sony and Samsung represent the top of the heap now.

The bar hasn't moved. You can discuss things like "the best of the current crop", but Samsung and Sony have a very hard time getting to that level themselves - and Sharp is simply too far back to put it in consideration. Not that they make bad televisions - not at all - but for quality of performance, and quality of construction, they miss the mark.


You know this as well as I. There were a few Panasonics in there for a while, and a couple of models each from Sony and Samsung, but Sharp? Even with the song and dance about the Sharp Elite, it didn't cut the mustard.


When you talk about something being "premium", the standard is not about what you can get right now, but what you could ever get. If it's a car, Duesenburg, not a new Cadillac. Planes, Spitire, not Cessna. Televisions, it's Kuro, not Quattron or Sharp Elite.


But of course, you know that.
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