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post #61 of 77 Old 04-03-2016, 12:26 PM
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Wow great news

Wow great news
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post #62 of 77 Old 04-21-2016, 04:48 AM
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Originally Posted by KBMAN View Post
...
Anyway, I imagine those DTS Demo discs are going to become more and more valuable, and fetching a pretty penny on 'the bay'....
Just returned from NAB 2016 last evening (saw several demos including Christie's HDR which was incredible). Our booth was next to Dolby and we remarked several times that we wish we had the same foot traffic as they did. For two solid days, it was so busy, there were suppliers, vendors, audio/video enthusiasts camped outside their show floor including a reservation system for experiencing their latest technology.

Being an AV enthusiast, I went to the DTS booth area twice; the second time to hear about market of DTS:X and to listen to DTS Headphone:X Their booth area (while not as large) was barely receiving ANY attention; none, zippo. As for those DTS Demo discs? There was a stack of them in the DTS booth (grabbed 2) and he was eager to give me more. In the Dolby area, I asked 3 different people for a Dolby ATMOS disk, and drew the conclusion they have enough interest in their technology without having to give away disks.

This is my 3rd year at NAB and (unfortunately for DTS) I again didn't see them making a big market push nor receiving any love from the attendees. Love DTS audio, and hope they're around for a long time. I know success isn't measured by foot traffic at a trade show, but...

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post #63 of 77 Old 04-22-2016, 12:45 PM
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well then ^^^^post comike , this makes me feel more secure about the lifespan of my Marantz AV7702 Pre/Pro (and not MKII), as I am getting the impression that Dolby is really the dominant force in immersive sound (at least for now)....
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post #64 of 77 Old 04-23-2016, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by comike View Post
Love DTS audio, and hope they're around for a long time.
Ditto and I hope so too. I have an old receiver a JVC RX 7000V I picked up around the year 1999. Comparing the Dolby and DTS on that,
it's hands down DTS is the winner. The center channel audio is muffled with Dolby as well as weaker spacial aspects of the other channels
and that the DTS also shines in that area as well. To my ears anyway.
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post #65 of 77 Old 04-24-2016, 08:35 PM
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Stereo is the future.

You heard it here first folks.
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post #66 of 77 Old 04-24-2016, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by EscapeVelocity View Post
Stereo is the future.

You heard it here first folks.

Pffft! Mono is where the real future is at. They only came up with stereo and multi-channel to sell you more speakers.
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post #67 of 77 Old 04-25-2016, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by philipbtz View Post
There still doesn't seem to be a recommended speaker placement for DTS:X. This alone makes me pretty skeptical of their future. I don't care about wireless, portable stuff. Has DTS given up on UHD Bluray? I see there are titles out but what about speaker placement etc.?

Pretty sad that Dts seems to be going the way of Auro.
At least Auro could be considered DOA. DTS:X hasn't even arrived yet and has dug its grave.
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post #68 of 77 Old 04-25-2016, 04:35 PM
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DTS sadly have over promised and under deliver. Firmware for DTS:X promised from "after CEDIA (2015)" moved to "in time for the holidays" to "after CES (2016)" to "April 2016", yet most receivers won't be receiving the firmware update until (their promise) "August 2016". Seriously? As much as I love the sound of DTS:X, HeadphoneX and NeuralX, I wonder why did I even bother selling my SC-85 at a huge loss to SC-95 when DTS:X won't be released in time even for the replacement of SC-95 (the replacement model will be announced in July 2016 with DTS:X specification presented as "DTS:X Ready via Firmware Update").
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post #69 of 77 Old 05-20-2016, 06:04 PM
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I would not count out DTS (DATASAT) yet. Back before DTS even came onto the scene who thought that anyone could take on or compete with the Dolby company? Dolby was into a large part of audio playback and I for one never thought that another company would arrive and compete with Dolby in the market. But DTS came around and not only did they compete with Dolby Digital but they where better. Although Dolby had the market share during the DVD days this was to change. The DTS-HD Master Audio came out and DTS did a better job with mastering/software and they got the studios to jump on board with them and Dolby's True HD became the minority format. For the first time in Dolby's history a rival came in and they took away Dolby's spot as top dog and now Dolby had to compete as the underdog, something Dolby has never had to do in the entire history of there company. Who ever thought that Dolby would ever become the company that would loose there dominance in the audio market? Dolby has branched out and is now working on the video side and you can be sure Dolby wants to be top dog again. Back when DVD came out I hated Dolby Digital and I replaced a number of DVD's after the DTS version came out. Back then Dolby was in denial and they tried to convince some that a higher bit rate did nothing that Dolby Digital was transparent to the master. After HD-DVD came out Dolby came up with Dolby Digital Plus while Blu-ray titles had many uncompressed PCM tracks and lossless tracks. Dolby then changed there tune saying that Dolby Digital Plus was transparent to the master. Not many HD-DVD's had Dolby True HD but most of the HD-DVD's had Dolby Digital Plus which was an improvement but was still IMHO a hot rod version of the old Dolby Digital, it just had a higher bit rate but again IMHO DTS was still better.

Dolby got there act together with Dolby True HD and it could and does compete with DTS-HD Master Audio but the mastering software took longer than it did with DTS and they where able to get studios to back DTS-HD Master Audio. In the days of DTS I was a DTS supporter and I hated Dolby Digital! But now while I would still like to see more DTS-HD Master titles in the end I will buy ether one because I see no draw back to Dolby True HD and when I purchase a movie there is no reason for me to buy it again like I would have when I was buying DVD's. Dolby got the drop on DTS currently but if you look back when DTS came out it came out after Dolby Digital and it was better. DTS-HD Master Audio came out after Dolby True HD and DTS won the battle by getting the studios to release the majority of blu-ray movies using DTS-HD Master Audio. So here we are and Dolby was first to market with Dolby Atmos and while there may not be a huge catalog of Atmos titles right now DTS is finally getting 1 or 2 titles out with DTS-X that is meant to compete with Dolby Atmos. Right now my home theater on the audio side is only capable of dealing with Dolby True HD and DTS-HD Master Audio 7.1/5.1 at some point I will upgrade to at least Atoms and DTS-X and I might consider Auro 3D even if there are few titles. If any one of the three is a underdog and at risk of disappearing quickly it is IMHO Auro 3D.

So I would not count DTS out yet! Dolby could very well regain it's dominant place in the market but let's see how it all plays out. I think we as enthusiast will have a better idea if immersive audio will actually survive and who the winner will be in late 2017. IMHO Auro 3D is basically DOA and has the format ended up being used on any movies yet? Let's see what CES 2017 brings us and what demo's Dolby and DTS will have at the convention in Las Vegas when we should have more 4K UHD displays and demos going on as well. I am looking forward to more 4K UHD blu-ray releases and more immersive audio being used when the movie will benefit from it. It is getting very exciting because finally we are seeing technology on the video and audio side reach the point where we can get a true cinema experience at home and get the most out of a projection system. They only thing that could set this all back is if physical media dies and the digital delivery system takes it's place. Let this be a lesson to Dolby because if they drop the ball another audio company could challenge them at any time just as DTS did, even if DTS fades away they did something no one else had ever did. They challenged a dominant Dolby that had a total grip on the market and while it may appear that Dolby is taking the lead back let's not count out DTS yet. We as enthusiast will not doubt be the winner as both of these companies are driven to innovate due to the competition between the two and as long as enough consumers purchase the hardware and the physical discs then we will continue to see studios offering the new immersive audio tracks on more and more movie titles for the home.

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post #70 of 77 Old 05-20-2016, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Moritz View Post
Who ever thought that Dolby would ever become the company that would loose there dominance in the audio market?
No one thought that because no one (except maybe DTS fans) considers movie soundtracks on one delivery medium (Blu-ray) to be "the audio market". When it comes to audio, Dolby didn't lose their dominance in DVD, broadcast, cable, satellite, downloads, live streaming, video games, etc. Are those delivery media not part of "the audio market"?
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They only thing that could set this all back is if physical media dies and the digital delivery system takes it's place.
"Set this all back" for whom? Dolby already specializes in low bit rate audio (DD+, AC-4) for digital delivery systems, so if physical media dies, they will continue to provide codecs for broadcast, cable, satellite, downloads, live streaming, video games, etc. What will DTS do if physical media dies?
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post #71 of 77 Old 05-23-2016, 10:29 AM
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"Set this all back" for whom?
This would be a step back for enthusiast that want the best sound. As far as the dominance that I was talking about I was talking about the dominance that Dolby enjoyed in the physical media department, and more along the lines of movies. Most movies on physical media used to be encoded in Dolby but that has changed. That is not to say that Dolby will not get that part of the market back. When I was speaking of a set back I viewed it as a set back for those who buy movies if and when physical media goes away. And the reason I say that is because I honestly feel that lossless audio provides the best audio quality that is available. At some point streaming and digital downloads will be just as good as the physical discs but I do not feel that is the case right now. Of course it will be harder on DTS if physical media ends as you stated and as I am aware that Dolby is involved in many other areas and they are now involved with the video side as well. Dolby tried for a number of years to convince everyone that low bit rate was good enough to represent the transparency of the master but they ended up backtracking on that when they released DD+ and then Dolby True HD. I can live with ether DTS-HD Master Audio or Dolby True HD as they are both very good. But I do not think it is a move forward and that it is a step back to go back to lossy audio for movies. As far as lossy being used for everything else I am not a fan of that! So when we are talking about other sources of media via, (broadcast, cable, satellite, downloads, live streaming, video games, etc). I do not purchase downloadable movies and will not do so when physical media goes away. And I do not care for the use of Dolby Digital for broadcast or cable/statalite but I understand they have bandwidth limitations and that is why they use the low bit rate audio. The market right now is being driven more by convenience than actual quality because to many people are want music and movies where ever they are. To many people have no problem watching content on there tiny little smart phone screens or listening to music through there earbuds or even the horrible speaker on the smart phone itself.

Besides that people who are gravitating towards convenience are going to love it if and when the company they purchased there music and or movie goes under and there digital investment disappears. Or if they loose there job and can not pay for internet to access there digital library.

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Who ever thought that Dolby would ever become the company that would loose there dominance in the audio market?
Should have worded that differently. What I actually meant to say was this:

Who ever thought that Dolby would ever become the company that would loose there dominance in the physical media market when it comes to Blu-ray discs.

Dolby went from dominating the dvd market to loosing that dominance in the blu-ray market. This trend even seems to be continuing in the 4K UHD market although Dolby may get some of that back if DTS can not get there act together with DTS-X firmware upgrades and if Dolby can get on a roll with Dolby Atmos releases.

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post #72 of 77 Old 05-23-2016, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Moritz View Post
Most movies on physical media used to be encoded in Dolby but that has changed.
Are you counting DVD as physical media?
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Dolby tried for a number of years to convince everyone that low bit rate was good enough to represent the transparency of the master but they ended up backtracking on that when they released DD+ and then Dolby True HD.
Do you have a link to where they claimed low bit rate was transparent to the master? Even stranger that they would backtrack for DD+, considering it is typically used at a lower bitrate than DD.
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post #73 of 77 Old 05-23-2016, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Moritz View Post
Dolby tried for a number of years to convince everyone that low bit rate was good enough to represent the transparency of the master but they ended up backtracking on that when they released DD+ and then Dolby True HD.

No they did not. They were trying to deliver something that met the requirements of low bitrate audio and make it as sonically transparent as possible. There was never a "good enough" argument. They were more than happy to supply TrueHD when the requirements allowed full lossless audio streams.

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Should have worded that differently. What I actually meant to say was this

Thought you were going to take the chance and correct the fact that lose has only one "o".

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Dolby went from dominating the dvd market to loosing that dominance in the blu-ray market. This trend even seems to be continuing in the 4K UHD market although Dolby may get some of that back if DTS can not get there act together with DTS-X firmware upgrades and if Dolby can get on a roll with Dolby Atmos releases.

Dolby Atmos is already on a roll. With the physical media market shrinking there's going to be no more chances for companies showing up late and incomplete. DTS got lucky with Blu-ray 5.1/7.1. Looks like that luck has run out with object-based audio.
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post #74 of 77 Old 05-23-2016, 08:54 PM
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I remember seeing a video back before blu-ray/HD-DVD came out from someone at Dolby saying that Dolby Digital was as transparent as the master and that they did not see a need for higher bit rates. I remember that just after HD-DVD came out Dolby Digital Pus was being mostly used for HD-DVD titles. A number of Blu-rays had some uncompressed PCM tracks, some titles where using the old lossy Dolby Digital and as time went on more and more titles had Dolby True HD. At some point the studios moved away from Dolby True HD and adobted DTS-HD Master Audio for Blu-ray releases. I do not have any links to the video but I distinctly remember feeling that while Dolby Digital Plus was a definant improvement over the original Dolby Digital. But I still back then prefered DTS to even Dolby Digital plus even though I had many HD-DVD titles that had Dolby Digital Plus as the primary audio track. Back then when Blu-ray came out I decided that after the first few titles that I would no longer purchase any Blu-ray with Dolby Digital and that may have been around the time that Toshiba pulled the plug on HD-DVD right before CES that year.

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DTS got lucky with Blu-ray 5.1/7.1. Looks like that luck has run out with object-based audio.
Dolby was first to market with there lossy 5.1 and DTS came along and made a better lossy codex IMHO. I have over the year's had many components using Dolby technology and they have led the way and have been leading the way for most of that time. So after that we know that Dolby beat DTS to market and put out there lossless format first again but even with a problem or two DTS still was able to come out after with there lossless codex. We can argue about what caused Dolby to loose the support of the most studios but the fact is more titles where released on Blu-ray in DTS's DTS-HD Master Audio and so far more 4K UHD discs have DTS tracks than Dolby tracks. Now DTS is having some kind of issue getting out new firmware and the intergration of DTS-X seems to be an issue. At this same time Dolby doesn't seem to be having any issues with there Dolby Atmos even though once again I believe the where first to market again. I do love the DTS company but I have grown up with Dolby and while I did have issues with the Dolby Digital product and got to a point where I avoided it. I can say that now that we have DTS-HD Master Audio and Dolby True HD and that they both sound great. For myself I can say that I can purchase a movie and as long as the audio track is ether one of those I can be very happy with ether one. I have been a DTS supporter but at the same time I do not hate Dolby, I just did not care for Dolby Digital. If DTS-X fails and goes away then that will be on DTS for failing because in the home video market moving forward beyond DVD, DTS achieved overtaking Dolby in Blu-ray's and 4K UHD discs. It is hard to say if DTS will continue with just there lossless codex for Blu-ray and 4K but if Dolby's Atmos gets more support from the studios that may pave the way for more Dolby True HD tracks as well. My upgrade plan currently includes both Atmos and X decoding as well as full 4K path from source to display. All I need is a new receiver with 4K switching and HDCP 2.2 and I will be in good shape. So far I am leaning towards a Marantz reciever but that will be sometime next year and I might even get Auro 3D if it is available just to have the capability and just incase a 4K UHD title becomes available overseas and the domestic version only has standard lossless, depending on the title in question.

Dolby may still have total dominance of the market in general but DTS came around and effectively took the HD blu-ray market from them. Who is to say if another company could not come around and challange Dolby again? Dolby could very well take advantage of DTS's screw up and take back the blu-ray market. Ether way I just want to see lossless tracks included as IMHO they are the best way to reproduce the audio tracks for the movies we love. I can totally live with DTS-HD Master Audio or Dolby True HD and be more than happy with ether one. If I ever can come up with a link to the interview in question I will post it.

I just want the best presentation when watching movies at home and some day my goal is to have a 4K UHD projector with a 120" - 160" screen. It seems like a waste of money to upgrade the audio side just to go back to Dolby Digital and or Dolby Digital Plus with things moving towards a internet based digital delivery system. Trust me the studios will be alienating a large number of customers that not only think 480p DVD is good enough but those who do not have computers, do not have internet and many that still do not subscribe to cable.


http://www.practical-home-theater-gu...by-vs-dts.html
"Similar claims come from Dolby Labs, namely that when Dolby Digital is encoded at the maximum 640 kbits/s defined by this standard, it is capable of achieving similar audio perceptual transparency results, in that the listener would not be able to distinguish between the original un-coded source and the output from a coded soundtrack. Yet, in real life implementation, things are somewhat different..."

"DVD-video format limits Dolby Digital sound tracks to a bit rate of 448 kbits/s. At this reduced bit rate, perceptual audio transparency is lost. On some DVD releases, this is even further limited to a bit rate of 384 kbits/s. In either case however, these bit rates are higher than that used in moviehouse applications."


http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolog...data-sheet.pdf

I do not care for how perceptual coding works and even though I was a big fan of DTS over Dolby Digital. Any DTS DVD that I have not replaced with a Blu-ray version at this time is in no way safe from being replaced. Lossy DTS is in no way as good as the lossless Dolby True HD or DTS-HD Master Audio or even uncompressed PCM. I still have a number of DVD's that have not been upgraded because of the limitation of my finances. But sooner or later many of those titles will be ether upgraded to 1080p Blu-ray or 4K UHD Blu-ray with lossless audio tracks. I also do not care for mp3 or wma and am not a fan of digital downloaded music! Doesn't matter if I am listening to that music on my main home theater or my pc that uses a 5.1 reciever and a 2.1 speaker configuration or the former 2.1 pc speaker configuration. I prefer having the CD and or even the LP vs purchasing an inferior digital download that relies on a hard drive that has a short life span. And if you loose your internet try streaming music or movies or re downloading anything if your hard drive dies with no internet, sorry not me.

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post #75 of 77 Old 05-24-2016, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Moritz View Post
We can argue about what caused Dolby to loose the support of the most studios...
There's never been any argument about that: TrueHD encoding and QC require separate passes for the lossless track and companion lossy track while the core+extension structure of DTS-HD MA allows those tasks to be done in a single pass. That difference in speed has been eliminated in the latest version of the TrueHD encoder.

Also, keep in mind that this only applies to one single delivery medium: Blu-ray. For ALL other delivery media, Dolby never lost studio support. On those other deliver media, Dolby doesn't merely dominate, they're often exclusive.
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Trust me the studios will be alienating a large number of customers that not only think 480p DVD is good enough but those who do not have computers, do not have internet and many that still do not subscribe to cable.
Music labels took a similar risk when moving support from lossless audio on CDs to lossy audio on iTunes. Didn't seem to alienate a large number of customers (or if they did, was compensated for by new customers). The market segment that fulfills all three items you mentioned (no computer AND no internet AND no cable/sat TV) is shrinking, as can be observed by the decline of physical media and increase in streaming.

Convenience is turning out to be more important to most customers than absolute sound quality. I understand (and sympathize with) your point about wanting the best sound quality, but that appears to not be the number one priority for general consumers. The article at Practical Home Theatre Guide you linked to doesn't support your earlier claim, since it is talking about "when Dolby Digital is encoded at the maximum" bit rate rather than the "low bit rate" you mentioned. Likewise the PDF you linked to, which talks about Dolby Digital Plus at higher bit rates, not Dolby Digital at low bit rate.

During the DD era, I'd never seen an instance where "Dolby tried for a number of years to convince everyone that low bit rate was good enough to represent the transparency of the master". Again, if you have a link where Dolby made such a claim, please post it.
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I do love the DTS company ...I was a big fan of DTS over Dolby Digital.
That is one advantage that DTS has: a fan base. I don't know of any other lossy compression codec (audio or video) that has a fan following.
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post #76 of 77 Old 05-24-2016, 03:22 PM
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That is one advantage that DTS has: a fan base. I don't know of any other lossy compression codec (audio or video) that has a fan following.
I was a fan/supporter because the DTS versions sounded better and to this day I still do not like the overly compressed sounding low bit rate Dolby Digital. In today's lossless tracks like Dolby True HD and DTS-HD Master Audio I do believe they are equal and both offer the same high quality sound. And when I say I did not care and or like Dolby Digital I mean I did not like it used in DVD's, broadcast, satellite, cable or commercial cinemas.


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Music labels took a similar risk when moving support from lossless audio on CDs to lossy audio on iTunes. Didn't seem to alienate a large number of customers (or if they did, was compensated for by new customers). The market segment that fulfills all three items you mentioned (no computer AND no internet AND no cable/sat TV) is shrinking, as can be observed by the decline of physical media and increase in streaming.
I agree that streaming has had an increase in users because it is becoming harder to get physical music cd's as there are few retailers that actually have a huge selection of titles on disc. How ever even though they are getting an increase in people that stream music it is more likely that those numbers are coming from people that do not purchase physical media. When I said "Trust me the studios will be alienating a large number of customers that not only think 480p DVD is good enough but those who do not have computers, do not have internet and many that still do not subscribe to cable." I feel this also covers music cd's as well. There are more people that do not have internet, cable or even smart phones. So those people who can not afford the things that so many of us assume other have or that we take for granted that they are wide spread, there are many people that will not be buying digital music. The same goes for movies but movies are a bigger issue even for those with very low bandwidth internet and older computers or just basic computers with small hard drives. There will be many people that do not have the above mentioned but those in low income that do have computers may not be able to afford internet fast enough to stream movies or care enough to add lots of hard drive space to collect digital versions of movies. Internet for those who have it is something we do not even really think about. This economy is bad enough that someone could be out of work in a heartbeat and that person who may have built a good size digital library would loose everything if they did not have internet!

Personally if physical media goes away and the only choices are to buy movies ether via a digital download or streaming it, then I am done buying movies! I love having the best quality version and I like the fact that I can leave my collection to anyone that is interested. I do not like how our movie collections in the digital world has moved to something we are leasing not something we own. Maybe if I was born in a different time I would not think about it that way but that is just the way it is.

If I ever come across that video or article I will be more than happy to post the link here. But for now I am going to keep buying physical media and enjoying it for as long as I can. I see no value in purchasing something that I can not hold, something that right now is not as good as the physical copy and having to got back to pre lossless audio when that is the only high quality format I will accept when purchasing movies. When that times comes I will just use that entertainment money for something different, like going on vacation somewhere and enjoying doing some traveling instead of spending money on digital downloads/streaming copies of movies.
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post #77 of 77 Old 06-15-2016, 08:42 PM
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You can only corner the market on obvious for so long, then you have to hire thousands of lawyers to persecute er I mean prosecute people for doing the obvious. Take patent trolls as an example.
Sound reproduction. If they are going to patent the hell out of sound then everyone will go back to analog.
I personally have never been able to enjoy the rich kid dream of the best audio equipment and edge-lit led graphics screens. I still have to go to Dizyland just to get a sample of smell-o-vision.
I thought they did very well for themselves, yachts, airplanes, five houses, eighteen cars, but it turns out they need more and I just couldn't afford to keep up with all the patented crap.
When they tried to tell me that every sound that comes out of my mouth is immediately copy righted and some group I have never met or ever will owns the rights to every sound ever heard, I gave up hope in these people. It is just too ridiculous, absurd even.
It doesn't seem too far away where you have people canvasing the neighborhood checking your brands and imprisoning the munchkins and killing everyone else for serial number violations, and it will probably turn out to be a clerical error like Mr Tuttles family endured in the movie Brazil.

I think that tech that gets away from the ' Titantic industry ' that is brand and copyright, will be the the one that wins in the end.
I've been burned by the 'oh your device isn't licensed for that format so we will just remove it from your box ' plan too many times to count.
Despite the logos being all over the manual, box, and device.
After several decades of this you get the feeling they are selling dissatisfaction as a warranty requirement.

Last edited by roadrun777; 06-15-2016 at 08:49 PM.
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