Sony, Panasonic, NHK Form 8K Consortium - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 113 Old 08-30-2016, 12:58 PM
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This reminds me of 7 minute abs. Why waste 7 minutes on abs when you can have 5 minute abs!
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post #62 of 113 Old 08-30-2016, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by CosmoNut View Post
Same here. I've watched a number of things in 4K and 1080p on my 65" Samsung JS8500 from about 9 feet and the difference is noticeable. In one shot of "Mad Dogs" that especially jumps to mind, the scruff on the character's face is quite different between the two. In 1080p upscaled, it ends up looking like brown blur. In 4K, it looks like HAIRS ... and that really is from 9 feet away, not with my nose to the TV.
BINGO! Details like this are very noticeable to me, and you - so they will noticeable to others as well. Perhaps I simply misunderstand what is being said about distance and detail at the differing resolutions, but 4K is better than 1080p. And 8K will be better than 4K!

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I think that the tv industry are fools thinking that I am going to buy an 8K set at all. 4K will be my limit.
I'll eventually buy one I'd imagine. Though I did jump from SD to 4K, nothing in between so I might be waiting for 16K..... Seriously, depending on pricing and how well the upscaling works, might adopt it not at first, but maybe a second or third gen.
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post #63 of 113 Old 08-30-2016, 02:03 PM
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I think that the tv industry are fools thinking that I am going to buy an 8K set at all. 4K will be my limit.
This is just a consortium. I imagine it'll be sometime before you see it as a standard in the consumer market. There may be things here and there, but it'll take a long time and I think they're well aware that the majority of people will be fine with 4K, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be looking towards the future.
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post #64 of 113 Old 08-31-2016, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by pgwalsh View Post
This is just a consortium. I imagine it'll be sometime before you see it as a standard in the consumer market. There may be things here and there, but it'll take a long time and I think they're well aware that the majority of people will be fine with 4K, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be looking towards the future.
A long time is like 2018/2020 so I dont think that's such a long time to wait, not for me anyway which is why I'm by passing 4K and waiting for 8K. If this consortium has been put together you can bet it's happening and will happen unless Sony and Panasonic pull the plug on tv manufacturing all together which I dont see happening.
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post #65 of 113 Old 08-31-2016, 07:54 AM
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8K? WTF, unless they start making super cheap TVs that are well made (Hard to use that in same sentence) I don't see the point. Heck people are just getting use to 1080p and most people will not upgrade their TVs to 4K, yet so why bastardize 4k by announcing 8K.... 4k looks great on a screen that 60" or higher but even then comparison test are weak on a good 1080p set, plus industry hasn't even begun to catch up yet. If they want 4K and even 8K to take hold quickly they need to introduce a fantastic trade in and trade up program for TVs so at least they can recycle the old ones that still hold value. Example if they gave me half of what my Sony 1080p set is I would upgrade to the newer 4K or 8k set, otherwise there is zero incentive unless your set breaks. Plus the amount of bandwidth needed to produce that type of signal is going to make the average home need internet speeds that are off the chart.... Unless you wait of 8K Blu-Rays..

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post #66 of 113 Old 08-31-2016, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by steve1971 View Post
A long time is like 2018/2020 so I dont think that's such a long time to wait, not for me anyway which is why I'm by passing 4K and waiting for 8K. If this consortium has been put together you can bet it's happening and will happen unless Sony and Panasonic pull the plug on tv manufacturing all together which I dont see happening.
I'd think 5 years from now, but you'd probably see some high end things before then. I haven't upgraded my main TV in 10 years, but just bought a new projector and if an 8K projector came out for a reasonable cost, I'd jump on it, especially if it had a laser light engine. That being said, I'm with you, but in need of a new TV sooner than later and I'd stick with what I purchased for quite a a wile.
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post #67 of 113 Old 08-31-2016, 02:10 PM
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4K UDR/UHD is so problematic I cannot imagine what 8K will be: the learning curve for proper 4K HDCP implementation has a long way to go

why not get 4K implementation to work properly first?

perhaps the 8K consortium could learn from past mistakes before taking this leap?
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post #68 of 113 Old 09-02-2016, 12:25 AM
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All of us who bought 4K tv's are the fools. The tv industry is going to skip 4K and go directly to 8K. I am one of those fools.
I do not think any of us who bought into 4K are fools!


I see no place for 8K in the consumer realm! I see it maybe being useful for commercial cinemas but lets face it where would the 8K content come from? There maybe a handful of films restored at 8K like My Fair Lady. But in all honesty 4K is the best choice for consumers and 1080p is not all that bad and looks good. I personally am trying to upgrade my full video chain to 4K and the goal is to get a 4K projector with a 120" screen. But what would be the point of going beyond 4K? In my honest opinion we have gotten to the point of diminishing returns where 8K will not provide any to much improvement in picture quality especially considering the screen sizes that the average consumer has in there homes. Then beyond that how would they get the content to an 8K display? I do not see an 8K disc player coming anytime soon and would a SSD drive have enough speed to play back content at 8K resolution? Not to mention the file size would be absurd at those resolutions! Can anyone name a internet provider that will have the bandwidth to stream 8K content because I am not sure they exists except for certain Asian countries that have gigabit connections. So how would anyone get 8K content when many people do not even have a fast enough connection to stream 4K content. I have to many things to upgrade and even if 8K came out I see no reason for it and the only thing I would do is eventually get an 8K display or projector only because they no longer sell 4K models! And I would not be purchasing 8K content as I feel it would be a waste! It will be hard enough getting the average consumer to purchase 4K content but 8K no way! I do however believe that 4K UHD brings more than enough to the table to warrant upgrading but after that what is the point? What will it actually bring to the table since 4K can slightly surpass what the human eye can see. How would people be able to see the full resolution of 8K? Building a 4K movie library and rebuilding my vinyl record collection is what I am focusing on and have no wish to go beyond 4K!

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post #69 of 113 Old 09-02-2016, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Moritz View Post
I do not think any of us who bought into 4K are fools!


I see no place for 8K in the consumer realm! I see it maybe being useful for commercial cinemas but lets face it where would the 8K content come from? There maybe a handful of films restored at 8K like My Fair Lady. But in all honesty 4K is the best choice for consumers and 1080p is not all that bad and looks good. I personally am trying to upgrade my full video chain to 4K and the goal is to get a 4K projector with a 120" screen. But what would be the point of going beyond 4K? In my honest opinion we have gotten to the point of diminishing returns where 8K will not provide any to much improvement in picture quality especially considering the screen sizes that the average consumer has in there homes. Then beyond that how would they get the content to an 8K display? I do not see an 8K disc player coming anytime soon and would a SSD drive have enough speed to play back content at 8K resolution? Not to mention the file size would be absurd at those resolutions! Can anyone name a internet provider that will have the bandwidth to stream 8K content because I am not sure they exists except for certain Asian countries that have gigabit connections. So how would anyone get 8K content when many people do not even have a fast enough connection to stream 4K content. I have to many things to upgrade and even if 8K came out I see no reason for it and the only thing I would do is eventually get an 8K display or projector only because they no longer sell 4K models! And I would not be purchasing 8K content as I feel it would be a waste! It will be hard enough getting the average consumer to purchase 4K content but 8K no way! I do however believe that 4K UHD brings more than enough to the table to warrant upgrading but after that what is the point? What will it actually bring to the table since 4K can slightly surpass what the human eye can see. How would people be able to see the full resolution of 8K? Building a 4K movie library and rebuilding my vinyl record collection is what I am focusing on and have no wish to go beyond 4K!


I agree with what you said but cant what you said be applied to 4K as well? I mean was there really a need for 4K? 1080p on a top of the line set looks just as good as 4K in my opinion. Couldnt the manufacturer's have included HDR on 1080p sets and saved money instead of going 4K? Sure they could have. 8K is just an extension of the technology is all it is. I was all hyped up when this story first appeared but now I have taken a step back and looked at the big picture. I still have my top of the line 2014 Sony 55W900A and after 2 1/2 years of ownership its PQ still blows me away to the point where there is no way I'm replacing it with any current 4K set on the market today. I dont see the need to. By the time 2018 rolls around I'll see where the tech is at and if 8K is starting to roll out to the consumer market I may jump on it or now I may not who knows? My main focus for now and for the next few years is collecting Blu ray movies and Audio, for me an Atmos setup is next. As for the Video side of things is concerned I'm not interested because my current set does its job and does its job very very well. That being said 8K like it or not is the future. Whether its worth it or not to some is up to that individual but Sony, Panasonic and NHK are moving forward with the tech and they think its a money maker. Will it be? That remains to be seen. Has the 4K tech been a money maker? The jury is still out on that question. Just my two cents.
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post #70 of 113 Old 09-02-2016, 07:44 AM
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I can only shake my head when I hear arguments against furthering technology. I remember when people thought computer processors were fast enough and 10 megapixel camera's were more than enough. There's always someone saying that we don't need to develop a technology any further because what we have is good enough and that they don't see a need for anything more. I don't think this is a case of a moving target. As Scott Wilkinson has said in another article, the biggest change today is HDR and that 4K had a minimal effect for many people, unless you're on a computer screen. 8K will be the same, but there will be benefits in some areas, like theaters etc.

4K and HDR are going to be great and it'll be a few years before that technology fully matures. If, in the meantime, they come out with 8K, and 4K is good enough for you, no one is going to force you to upgrade. You don't have to have the latest and greatest, I'm often a late adopter. Someone will develop a downscaler etc

A benefit of developing 8 is that it'll push them to develop better compression algorithms and any other tech that is implemented will probably benefit 4K as well. It'll probably be geared more towards professionals anyway and I rather see film and tv industry shooting in 8K than in 4K. As has been noted, zoom-in's of 8K video will look great on 4K TV's.

With technology it's not about what we need, it's about what is possible.
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post #71 of 113 Old 09-02-2016, 10:37 AM
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The only excitement I have for 8K is the potential to reproduce and resolve passive 4k HDR 3D for consumers.

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post #72 of 113 Old 09-02-2016, 10:38 AM
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Then beyond that how would they get the content to an 8K display? I do not see an 8K disc player coming anytime soon and would a SSD drive have enough speed to play back content at 8K resolution? Not to mention the file size would be absurd at those resolutions! Can anyone name a internet provider that will have the bandwidth to stream 8K content because I am not sure they exists except for certain Asian countries that have gigabit connections. So how would anyone get 8K content when many people do not even have a fast enough connection to stream 4K content.
If you're showing an 8K movie at 60 frames per second, with each 8K frame being about 332 Mbits, you need 1.9Gbit/s throughput using raw uncompressed format.

Current SSD technology delivers 6Gb/s at SATA3 speeds, so there's more than enough speed.

One movie at 60 fps assuming an average of 130 minutes would need about 15,000,000 Gbits storage area or 2,000,000 Gbytes to store in raw format. Since nothing is stored in raw format, you want to use one of the common video encoders currently being used for UHD content - H.265. That provides you with compression of about 70% on average for movie content without losing quality as shown in this paper.

So that takes you from the horrific (2 million Gbytes) to the expensive ( 600k Gbytes) storage needed. Or 600 Terabytes... or 0.6 Petabytes. For a 24 fps movie, it would be 240 Terabytes.

Anyways, it's a lot. Drives that size will probably be available in the far future... like in about five years or so. Samsung has a 16 TB SSD now, I could see that growing in the 100's in a reasonable time.

Streaming would need a bandwidth of about 0.5 Gbit/s for an 8K movie at 60 fps if you use H.265 compression. About half that for a 24 fps 8K movie.

Basically it's beyond the US reach as far as our internet infrastructure (except for google fiber and other local services like it), but not past Japan's or Korea's. Storage is probably a bit further out, but not that much if we base it by previous growth in size of drives. As far as SSD speed, the current ones can easily handle the demands of 8K.

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post #73 of 113 Old 09-02-2016, 03:22 PM
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I think some of you are exagerating, there's no magic limit to pass, it is simply just four times UHD if encoding stays the same. While I have no knowledge about internet speed issues in US, lot's of things happens in 10 years, and surely by then 1Gbit will not be uncommon? Even a couple of hundred Mb should be just fine for broadcasting. I say ten years, since I think that this is as early as this technology can enter the market in strength at best.

And while I agree that lots of people will not go for 8K just as lots of people still has SD, or no telly at all, there will always be some of us that will want the extra resolution.
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post #74 of 113 Old 09-02-2016, 03:37 PM
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I love you, Japan. Always pressing on toward the future while the rest of the world somehow seems content with massively compressed 480i satellite feeds and hyper-pixelated Netflix streaming.
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post #75 of 113 Old 09-02-2016, 05:00 PM
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When the majority of theaters/movies are 2K and people are still buying 480p DVDs like crazy one does have to question if there is a market for such a technology. I think it's fine for it to exist, but 4K is going to be REALLY hard to displace without some amazing advances in screen sizes for consumers.

To really benefit from 8K we really need higher framerates as motion resolution at 24fps is laughable. We really need 60fps minimum and ideally 120fps. You manage to get 8K 120fps full Rec 2020 with 10,000nits peak brightness 12bits+ and you have basically a window into the real world. Though how appreciably different that would be vs the exact same thing just with 4K and 60fps is hard to know without having seen both first hand.
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It's pretty depressing that technology can move this fast in TV design, but programming providers fall so far behind. My Dish Network receiver is still 1080i. WTF?
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post #77 of 113 Old 09-02-2016, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by reallynotnick View Post
When the majority of theaters/movies are 2K and people are still buying 480p DVDs like crazy one does have to question if there is a market for such a technology. I think it's fine for it to exist, but 4K is going to be REALLY hard to displace without some amazing advances in screen sizes for consumers.

To really benefit from 8K we really need higher framerates as motion resolution at 24fps is laughable. We really need 60fps minimum and ideally 120fps.
I agree, and UHD "8k" in Japan will probably be 120 fps. That is what it will likely be broadcast in, not that everything will necessarily be shot in that format. A least there's one mainstream film shot in 120 fps.
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You manage to get 8K 120fps full Rec 2020 with 10,000nits peak brightness 12bits+ and you have basically a window into the real world. Though how appreciably different that would be vs the exact same thing just with 4K and 60fps is hard to know without having seen both first hand.
Sort of, but not exactly, since testers noticed a significant quality improvement going from 120 fps to 240 fps. Also the real world is 3D.

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post #78 of 113 Old 09-02-2016, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Moritz View Post
I do not think any of us who bought into 4K are fools!


I see no place for 8K in the consumer realm! I see it maybe being useful for commercial cinemas but lets face it where would the 8K content come from?
Here is the problem I see with this reasoning. It assumes that 8K displays, when they arrive, will offer a benefit only when used to show 8k sources. I've had my 4K set for a year and a half now and am still extremely pleased with it, though I rarely watch an 4K source. I ordinarily watch 2K from DirecTV on the better channels, like CNN, Science, Smithsonian, and a couple dozen others. It looks much better than the same 2K source looked on my previous 2K plasma set.

So if a 4K display improves on the quality of a 2K display when showing 2K source, why wouldn't an 8K display offer a further benefit in picture quality when showing the same 2K source? There's no guarantee of it, but it seems to me to be a reasonable expectation. It doesn't just depend on showing more pixels that were recorded from a source image. It also depends on how well processing upconversion works and on improvements in color gamut and dynamic range.
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post #79 of 113 Old 09-04-2016, 02:15 AM
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I see 8K being more beneficial to commercial cinemas than consumers with small display sizes. And another thing I was thinking about is can 8K resolution even be seen by the human eye, as far as being able to actually take in the full resolution? I have 480p dvd's that still look ok and look better on my 4K UHD tv than they did on my 720p native rear projection HDTV. And most of my viewing is a mix of 1080p blu-ray, 4K UHD blu-ray, 1080p Direct TV, 1080p Vudu and 1080p Netflix and alot of it is upconverted to 4K UHD. My main goal is to go 4K UHD and at some point I may end up getting a 8K TV but as far as media goes I do not forsee going beyond 4K. 4K UHD is where I draw the line as much as I love this hobby. I have a number of things to upgrade and then I also want to go with a 4K projector and a good quality screen. So the rest of the investment will go into 4K UHD blu-ray titles and rebuilding my vinyl record collection. Don't get me wrong I love technology but at some point it will become overkill. And also as much as I love this hobby I do not want to go from upgrade to upgrade now that I am finally getting into HQ commercial cinema quality video. Is it possible I might get a 8K projector? Sure but my focus is on upgrading to 4K UHD from source to projection screen and building a large 4K library. And lets face it I want to do more than just buy home theater gear the rest of my life. 4K will be more than good enough and I am sure I will be very happy with it and that there will be a number of titles that I will continue to enjoy on 1080p blu-ray. I very much want to take a trip to Germany and do a few other things before I get to old to enjoy it. I am not saying that there will be no benafit with 8K but I think commercial cinemas will benefit far more with the extreme screen sizes especially when they start shooting in native 8K.

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post #80 of 113 Old 09-04-2016, 02:47 AM
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I agree completely with the writer of this article; 4K is just getting started right now. To think 8K will be viable on the market by 2020 is way too soon. As a matter of fact, I think 8K will have a hard time capturing the home market even many years beyond that; if anything 8K will be used for businesses with need for large screens, for example football stadiums with the need for a large replay screen or something of that nature. It will be for a very specific market. 4K is going to be around for at least 10 years and beyond so I wouldn't worry for those considering getting a 4K TV now or in the future.
4K in the consumer world started 5 years ago with Sony's release of the 1000es projector in late 2011.
That is half a decade.
Just because early adoption was not popular does not mean that it did not start.
I was one of those who jumped on the bandwagon back then. I still have this projector and I am still very proud of it even though it has now been superceded by LG's OLED 4K tvs and other 4K projectors made by JVC(and Sony).

8K will probably be the same.
8K TVs are already available now.

I always like to use my laserdisc/VHS analogy.

Blu Ray(or 1080p) has been to DVD what laserdisc was to VHS. A superior system that was/is less popular.

Likewise

4K is to HD/2k/BluRay what laserdisc was to VHS.A Superior system that is less popular.

The trend will probably be the same with regards to 8K.

8K will be the laserdisc.......4K will be VHS.
8K will be a superior system that will be less popular.

But like laserdisc......there will be people out there(maybe not many) who own them.

In 5-10 years.......I hope to be one of them.

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post #81 of 113 Old 09-04-2016, 07:23 AM
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4K in the consumer world started 5 years ago with Sony's release of the 1000es projector in late 2011.
That is half a decade.
Just because early adoption was not popular does not mean that it did not start.
I was one of those who jumped on the bandwagon back then. I still have this projector and I am still very proud of it even though it has now been superceded by LG's OLED 4K tvs and other 4K projectors made by JVC(and Sony).

8K will probably be the same.
8K TVs are already available now...
Which true "8K" TVs (true meaning each pixel TV pixel is used for each 8K video source pixel - no splitting the subpixels from a 4K TV) are available to buy now (in the UK and USA)? What is the lowest price for a currently available true "8K" (or 7.68K) TV (>£100,000?)?
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post #82 of 113 Old 09-04-2016, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post
Which true "8K" TVs (true meaning each pixel TV pixel is used for each 8K video source pixel - no splitting the subpixels from a 4K TV) are available to buy now (in the UK and USA)? What is the lowest price for a currently available true "8K" (or 7.68K) TV (>£100,000?)?
That is a good question.

Maybe I made a mistake to say they are available now

This article is helpful:


http://www.t3.com/news/how-sharp-tur...el-technomancy
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post #83 of 113 Old 09-04-2016, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post
Which true "8K" TVs (true meaning each pixel TV pixel is used for each 8K video source pixel - no splitting the subpixels from a 4K TV) are available to buy now (in the UK and USA)? What is the lowest price for a currently available true "8K" (or 7.68K) TV (>£100,000?)?
The one I know of is an 85" which sells for about 140k(dollars) in Japan. It has source from NHK,
which includes 130 hours of Olympic coverage from Rio. NHK has also begun regular broadcasting of 8K content.

Obviously a rare thing to have one of these beasts, but it is available. I guess NHK is setting up viewing areas for the broadcasts since most people aren't likely to have one.
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The one I know of is an 85" which sells for about 140k(dollars) in Japan. It has source from NHK,
which includes 130 hours of Olympic coverage from Rio. NHK has also begun regular broadcasting of 8K content.

Obviously a rare thing to have one of these beasts, but it is available. I guess NHK is setting up viewing areas for the broadcasts since most people aren't likely to have one.
85" 8k?? I guess you view from 3' back to see the benefit?
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85" 8k?? I guess you view from 3' back to see the benefit?
Not sure, maybe, maybe not, depends on your eyesight - just tried to answer the OP's question.

This is experimental obviously, both the broadcasts and the infrastructure. It's how things progress.
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Not sure, maybe, maybe not, depends on your eyesight - just tried to answer the OP's question.

This is experimental obviously, both the broadcasts and the infrastructure. It's how things progress.
I guess my point is that there are much more effective areas for progress like full rec.2020 color gamut and HDR. Either of those would have more impact at normal THX viewing distances than 8k. Even at iMax viewing distances...
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post #87 of 113 Old 09-04-2016, 10:12 AM
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Not sure, maybe, maybe not, depends on your eyesight - just tried to answer the OP's question.

This is experimental obviously, both the broadcasts and the infrastructure. It's how things progress.
Sorry... NOT questioning your post. Just the need for 8k.
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post #88 of 113 Old 09-04-2016, 10:45 AM
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I guess my point is that there are much more effective areas for progress like full rec.2020 color gamut and HDR. Either of those would have more impact at normal THX viewing distances than 8k. Even at iMax viewing distances...
Well, I get your point about the right here and now.

But it seems like right now there's a rush to compete in the 4K UHD market, we have commercial TV's that are flirting with full DCI P3 compliance and will likely push for making up the remaining 20% to 2020.

In my opinion, things don't grow linearly and have to be seeded early. Starting 8K or some other technologies don't necessarily detract from and may speed up 4K development. It's why so many car companies build race cars - to get tech drops from them.

My plan is to upgrade to a full 4K path (Oppo UHD player, 4K UHD TV <fill in manufacturer here, I'm agnostic> and some whoopdedoo receiver with 22 channels if possible) and enjoy that for the 10 years until I feel an 8K path is ready.

I believe the more we push, the better more normal technologies get.

Last edited by hernanu; 09-04-2016 at 10:51 AM.
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This is experimental obviously, both the broadcasts and the infrastructure. It's how things progress.

From the NHK-STRL website (link):

Quote:
8K Super Hi-Vision
Summary
NHK STRL is researching a wide range of technologies for 8K Super Hi-Vision (SHV), including video formats and imaging, display, recording, coding, audio and transmission systems. We will conduct SHV test broadcasting in 2016 and start broadcasting to the public in 2018. [...]

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From the NHK-STRL website (link):

8K Super Hi-Vision
Summary
NHK STRL is researching a wide range of technologies for 8K Super Hi-Vision (SHV), including video formats and imaging, display, recording, coding, audio and transmission systems. We will conduct SHV test broadcasting in 2016 and start broadcasting to the public in 2018. [...]


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I think the broadcasts have begun.
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