JVC Reveals Details of DLA-Z1 4K Laser Projector at IFA 2016 - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 63 Old 09-04-2016, 12:59 PM
 
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Not when it first comes out. Maybe next year if I can get my hands on a b-stock or used unit. I can't afford a new one. Since when did owning a projector make you an expert on it? You've owned many projectors and clearly this hasn't made your knowledge about them any greater. The irony here is that you haven't owned any recent JVCs and yet you talk about them like you have.
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post #32 of 63 Old 09-04-2016, 01:05 PM
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This PJ looks like the first one to really have that 4k featureset worth the upgrade. But it's too bad the 4k PJs are so insanely expensive. I can talk myself out of going for the 10k, but anything above that is just out of my league regretfully.
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post #33 of 63 Old 09-04-2016, 02:02 PM
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Looking forward to hanging out with the smart video guys at CEDIA to break this down. Looks like an ideal projector for smaller screens but still not sure about a somewhat large screen like mine. Conspired to the Sony, it's got the price... But what else? Will it do a bright enough HDR pic on my 14' wide Microperf?

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #34 of 63 Old 09-08-2016, 05:52 AM
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Thread rolled back to remove off-topic discussions and bickering. Some legitimate posts may have been lost in the rollback. For that, I apologize. For the rest, the bickering ends now. Thanks.
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post #35 of 63 Old 09-08-2016, 06:23 AM
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Z1 pre-ordered.

Held on to the Sony 1000 long enough, but I am thoroughly bored of bulb dimming now: I replace my bulb every 400 hours or so. The Sony 5000 still has the question mark over panel degradation, and until that is resolved 100% for sure, the Sony is not an option for me.

Now I am looking for reasons to cancel the Z1 pre-order
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post #36 of 63 Old 09-08-2016, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark_H View Post
Now I am looking for reasons to cancel the Z1 pre-order

Since you asked...One of my friends is using a Sony 1000 in his home theater (will see him tomorrow and get a taste for UHD Blu-ray on the 1000).


He attended IFA on Sunday and was utterly disappointed with the UHD BD presentation of the Z 1.


Went there myself on Tuesday and understood: The UHD BD pictures were too dark with a noticable lack of half tones and contrast.


Since the UHD camera footage (beach resort) was impeccable, I assume that something wasn't properly adjusted in the UHD BD signal path, and that JVC will look into these issues prior to CEDIA next week.

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post #37 of 63 Old 09-08-2016, 06:55 AM
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Yeah, have seen those comments; most likely problems with setup, and certainly not deal breakers. We also know projectors aren't ideal for HDR yet, and that HDR is currently a bit of a mess, and so my focus isn't on HDR initially anyway. For now, my primary interest is the stable laser light source, then UHD/SDR/WGC and finally HDR. I'm most interested to hear about negatives such a projector noise, heat, internal reflections, image artefacts etc: the sort of stuff that can ruin an otherwise perfect experience.

Lumagen is working on a way to map 10/12bit HDR into a 10/12 bit SDR colour cube (ie we keep the best of the video range and clip off the highlights), which may provide the route we need to get the very best compromise for HDR on projectors, and as I already have the Lumagen Pro I will be looking into that once available...

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post #38 of 63 Old 09-08-2016, 07:01 AM
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ie we keep the best of the video range and clip off the highlights
I hope you mean compress (tone map) the highlights. Clipping looks terrible.
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post #39 of 63 Old 09-08-2016, 07:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I hope you mean compress (tone map) the highlights. Clipping looks terrible.
Tone mapping is the name of the game, for sure. The new Panasonic Ultra HD BD player has user-adjustable tone mapping for HDR to SDR conversion and I hope to see more features like that from others.

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post #40 of 63 Old 09-08-2016, 07:04 AM
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Since you asked...One of my friends is using a Sony 1000 in his home theater (will see him tomorrow and get a taste for UHD Blu-ray on the 1000).


He attended IFA on Sunday and was utterly disappointed with the UHD BD presentation of the Z 1.


Went there myself on Tuesday and understood: The UHD BD pictures were too dark with a noticable lack of half tones and contrast.


Since the UHD camera footage (beach resort) was impeccable, I assume that something wasn't properly adjusted in the UHD BD signal path, and that JVC will look into these issues prior to CEDIA next week.
I would not judge UHD BD by the VW1000/1100. That projector loses way too much light output with DCI filter in place. Also does not do HDR.
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post #41 of 63 Old 09-08-2016, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I hope you mean compress (tone map) the highlights. Clipping looks terrible.
I expect it to be very much as we already do today with projector calibrations, which is to map 235 IRE to the desired peak brightness level/projector capability and then map anything above into whatever brightness range is left, but using 10/12bit for the 16-235 range instead of the current 8bit. So, yes, compressing, not strict clipping.

It is effectively the method suggested by Joe Kane.

Implementation and effectiveness remain to be seen.

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post #42 of 63 Old 09-08-2016, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_H View Post
Lumagen is working on a way to map 10/12bit HDR into a 10/12 bit SDR colour cube (ie we keep the best of the video range and clip off the highlights), which may provide the route we need to get the very best compromise for HDR on projectors, and as I already have the Lumagen Pro I will be looking into that once available...
Should we expect the Lumagen version of tone mapping to be superior to the one found in the Panasonic UHD player?

Is the Lumagen trying to do anything different than the Panasonic already does? I'm trying to interpret the above. Is Lumagen trying to retain any sort of HDR effect (in terms of dynamic range/contrast) when converting to SDR? Or is it all about the color?

As I understand it, even when the Panasonic tone maps from HDR to SDR, it's really just about getting the WGC in SDR. But even then, since the HDR values are stripped one gets less color saturation when mapped to SDR. Is there any way the Lumagen tone mapping might maintain more WCG color saturation?

Thanks.
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post #43 of 63 Old 09-08-2016, 07:17 AM
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Should we expect the Lumagen version of tone mapping to be superior to the one found in the Panasonic UHD player?
It will allow you to map HDR directly into your 3D LUT, allowing you to get the best possible translation of HDR into SDR.

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post #44 of 63 Old 09-08-2016, 07:30 AM
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As I understand it, even when the Panasonic tone maps from HDR to SDR, it's really just about getting the WGC in SDR. But even then, since the HDR values are stripped one gets less color saturation when mapped to SDR.
Mapping from HDR to SDR doesn't necessarily reduce saturation, as long as the gamut stays the same - except maybe for rather bright image areas. But I suppose it depends on how good the tone mapping algorithm is.

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It will allow you to map HDR directly into your 3D LUT, allowing you to get the best possible translation of HDR into SDR.
Are you saying that the Lumagen itself will not perform tone mapping at all, but will instead let the 3D LUT do all the work? That would be a valid approach, but it doesn't necessarily have to produce the "best possible" translation of HDR into SDR. The quality will depend on what the 3D LUT does exactly. If the 3D LUT was made with the best tone mapping algorithms available, then you might get the best possible quality. However, with this approach the tone mapping would have to be hard coded to one specific video peak luminance value. E.g. dynamic metadata would go totally useless. Unless Lumagen is planning to support multiple different 3D LUTs for different video peak luminance levels, and will switch between them in real time based on the dynamic metadata?

Or are you saying that the Lumagen will perform tone mapping in their FPGA and then send the tone mapped data into the 3D LUT? That's a valid approach, too, but again, this doesn't necessarily have to produce the best possible translation of HDR into SDR. The quality will in this case depend on the tone mapping algorithm used by Lumagen.
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post #45 of 63 Old 09-08-2016, 07:48 AM
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I would not judge UHD BD by the VW1000/1100. That projector loses way too much light output with DCI filter in place. Also does not do HDR.

I'm aware of these shortcomings of the VW 1000/1100 and that I'll be only able to evaluate the increase in 4K picture detail. The point of my friend was that his standard Blu-rays still look better on his 1000 than the UHD BD images presented on the Z 1 (I saw a clip from The Martian UHD BD but back at home in the evening even my Optoma HD 83(00) projected a better image from the standard Blu-ray).


And it was impossible to evaluate how good the Z 1 upscales 1080p material because the material chosen was a dark concert.
I hope everybody attending CEDIA will press JVC to showcase bright images from Blu-rays like (the latest) Fifth Element, Oblivion, Tomorrowland or else.

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post #46 of 63 Old 09-08-2016, 09:27 AM
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Mapping from HDR to SDR doesn't necessarily reduce saturation, as long as the gamut stays the same - except maybe for rather bright image areas. But I suppose it depends on how good the tone mapping algorithm is.

Are you saying that the Lumagen itself will not perform tone mapping at all, but will instead let the 3D LUT do all the work? That would be a valid approach, but it doesn't necessarily have to produce the "best possible" translation of HDR into SDR. The quality will depend on what the 3D LUT does exactly. If the 3D LUT was made with the best tone mapping algorithms available, then you might get the best possible quality. However, with this approach the tone mapping would have to be hard coded to one specific video peak luminance value. E.g. dynamic metadata would go totally useless. Unless Lumagen is planning to support multiple different 3D LUTs for different video peak luminance levels, and will switch between them in real time based on the dynamic metadata?

Or are you saying that the Lumagen will perform tone mapping in their FPGA and then send the tone mapped data into the 3D LUT? That's a valid approach, too, but again, this doesn't necessarily have to produce the best possible translation of HDR into SDR. The quality will in this case depend on the tone mapping algorithm used by Lumagen.
Again, *as I understand it*, this method will only support static metadata initially, mapping the HDR metadata to a specified peak luminance level/gamut/gamma curve. The tone mapping will be done by the calibration software, eg CalMAN, with the resulting static 3D LUT imported into the Pro. Playback will simply see the Pro map the incoming HDR into the 3D LUT as previously generated. It's a static process. Joe Kane has discussed this approach in his articles, eg Widescreen Review and with Scott Wilkinson's podcasts.


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post #47 of 63 Old 09-08-2016, 09:40 AM
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Again, *as I understand it*, this method will only support static metadata initially, mapping the HDR metadata to a specified peak luminance level/gamut/gamma curve. The tone mapping will be done by the calibration software, eg CalMAN, with the resulting static 3D LUT imported into the Pro. Playback will simply see the Pro map the incoming HDR into the 3D LUT as previously generated. It's a static process. Joe Kane has discussed this approach in his articles, eg Widescreen Review and with Scott Wilkinson's podcasts.
Ok, sounds fine to me, and should be very easy for Lumagen to implement.

The only problem I see with this approach is that it can't easily adjust to different video peak levels (e.g. some UHD Blu-Rays are mastered to 1000 or 1200 nits, while others are mastered to 4000 nits). Ok, a tone mapping curve targetted at 4000 nits (or even 10,000 nits) will also work ok for 1000 nits videos, but you'll give away some display/projector brightness.

Maybe Lumagen can offer two separate 3D LUT slots, one for 1000 nits and one for 4000 nits videos? That should at least cover the majority of current UHD Blu-Rays. Dynamic metadata will be useless with this approach, though, unless Lumagen goes crazy and asks for a dozen 3D LUT files for different video peak levels, and then maybe linearly blends between them, or something like that.
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post #48 of 63 Old 09-08-2016, 10:29 AM
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The only problem I see with this approach is that it can't easily adjust to different video peak levels (e.g. some UHD Blu-Rays are mastered to 1000 or 1200 nits, while others are mastered to 4000 nits).
Yes, this occurred to me. And so it may be that Lumagen intends to do the mapping based on the metadata, rather than CalMAN, into the 3D LUT that CalMAN creates for the display's capabilities. I'm not 100% certain. Maybe there are actual details in their thread in the video processor forum.

Quote:
Maybe Lumagen can offer two separate 3D LUT slots, one for 1000 nits and one for 4000 nits videos? That should at least cover the majority of current UHD Blu-Rays.
The Pro supports multiple LUTs, so this would be feasible.

Quote:
Dynamic metadata will be useless with this approach, though, unless Lumagen goes crazy and asks for a dozen 3D LUT files for different video peak levels, and then maybe linearly blends between them, or something like that.
From what they have already said, I doubt we will see dynamic metadata supported.

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post #49 of 63 Old 09-08-2016, 11:55 AM
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It will allow you to map HDR directly into your 3D LUT, allowing you to get the best possible translation of HDR into SDR.
Thanks but, not being very familiar with a "3D LUT" I'm not sure if my question was answered.

With the tone mapping of the Lumagen make for a more dynamic image in terms of contrast? That is, you get some of the specular high-light brilliance? Or is the tone mapping strictly to do with transferring the WCG from HDR to SDR?
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post #50 of 63 Old 09-08-2016, 12:04 PM
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Tone mapping is mostly just a compression of the luminance (brightness) channel. Whether or not some of the specular highlights are preserved depends mostly on the peak luminance of your display, or rather the peak luminance setting you use when creating the tone mapping curve.

Calman will (have to) offer the user the choice which display peak luminance to target with the tone mapping curve. If you pick a high luminance value, you'll get lots of specular highlights, but the overall brightness will be low. If you pick a low luminance value, you'll barely get any specular highlights at all, but the overall brightness will be much higher. You can't have an overall bright image *and* specular highlights at the same time, unless your display has a very high luminance output. So for front projection you'll have to compromise between getting specular highlights and getting an overall bright image. But the choice will be yours.
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post #51 of 63 Old 09-08-2016, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
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Tone mapping is mostly just a compression of the luminance (brightness) channel. Whether or not some of the specular highlights are preserved depends mostly on the peak luminance of your display, or rather the peak luminance setting you use when creating the tone mapping curve.

Calman will (have to) offer the user the choice which display peak luminance to target with the tone mapping curve. If you pick a high luminance value, you'll get lots of specular highlights, but the overall brightness will be low. If you pick a low luminance value, you'll barely get any specular highlights at all, but the overall brightness will be much higher. You can't have an overall bright image *and* specular highlights at the same time, unless your display has a very high luminance output. So for front projection you'll have to compromise between getting specular highlights and getting an overall bright image. But the choice will be yours.
Ok thanks, so with the Lumagen Pro you are dealing with all the same trade-offs, HDR/contrast-wise, as people have been struggling with on the Samsung/Panny players to begin with.

One more, of you don't mind: Is there any reason to expect the Lumagen Pro to render a better looking image with UHD discs vs the Panny/Fury combo? And if so, in what way?
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post #52 of 63 Old 09-08-2016, 02:27 PM
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The Panny/Fury combo has to do all the math with its internal processing chips in real time, which is pretty hard. I would expect the quality of the Panny tone mapping to be inferior to something Calman (or any other software creating HDR tone mapping 3DLUTs, e.g. DispCAL can do that, too) can burn into a 3DLUT. After all, Calman can take any time it wants to create the 3DLUT, using the highest quality algorithms. Whether or not the difference in quality will be visible to the naked eye I can't say. Might depend on the content.
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post #53 of 63 Old 09-08-2016, 05:11 PM
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Z1 pre-ordered.

Held on to the Sony 1000 long enough, but I am thoroughly bored of bulb dimming now: I replace my bulb every 400 hours or so. The Sony 5000 still has the question mark over panel degradation, and until that is resolved 100% for sure, the Sony is not an option for me.

Now I am looking for reasons to cancel the Z1 pre-order
Likewise, confirmed I have first rights on one of two first units to land here in Aus. I made essentially the same remark in the other thread - Let's hope I want to keep the order in place post the CEDIA feedback on it
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Who deleted my post inquiring about motion handling/resolution?
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I would not judge UHD BD by the VW1000/1100. That projector loses way too much light output with DCI filter in place. Also does not do HDR.
I finally got my first UHD BD front projection experience last night at my friend's place. Now, for the above reasons I wouldn't know how much further the picture could have improved, but the VW 1000 handled the scenes from The Martian (playback from the Panasonic 900, too) I saw at IFA with the Z1 much, much better in terms of contrast, clarity, half tones and brightness.

Frankly, I was positively impressed with the VW 1000, but also missed the FI option.

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post #56 of 63 Old 09-10-2016, 12:25 AM
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The Panny/Fury combo has to do all the math with its internal processing chips in real time, which is pretty hard. I would expect the quality of the Panny tone mapping to be inferior to something Calman (or any other software creating HDR tone mapping 3DLUTs, e.g. DispCAL can do that, too) can burn into a 3DLUT. After all, Calman can take any time it wants to create the 3DLUT, using the highest quality algorithms. Whether or not the difference in quality will be visible to the naked eye I can't say. Might depend on the content.
The LUT simply holds the transformation data generated by the calibration process. All that math still has to be done in real time by the LUT holder. It may even be more math, given the quantity of data in the LUT compared to the settings of the Panny/Fury.
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The LUT simply holds the transformation data generated by the calibration process. All that math still has to be done in real time by the LUT holder. It may even be more math, given the quantity of data in the LUT compared to the settings of the Panny/Fury.
I'm not sure you fully understand the math that is required to do either 3DLUT processing or tone mapping.

For 3DLUT processing you read the 8 nearest 3DLUT data points and use trilinear interpolation between them. That's very simple math, requires no "pow" instructions, and besides would be needed for high quality calibration, anyway. So baking the tone mapping into the 3DLUT consumes no extra power over just using a 3DLUT calibration without tone mapping.

When talking about tone mapping algorithms, if you simply clip in YCbCr that's ultra easy and should consume less power than applying a 3DLUT. But who wants simple YCbCr clipping? It looks *awful*.

For high quality tone mapping, you should convert YCbCr to ICtCp, then apply the tone mapping in ICtCp, then reduce either saturation or luminance (or both) where colors are out of gamut after tone mapping. Finally, the resulting ICtCp data needs to be converted back to YCbCr. This whole processing chain consumes quite a lot of power, involving many matrix multiplications and "pow" instructions, which I think are expensive for a FPGA.

To give you some real world data: A Skylake GPU can do 3DLUT processing for 4Kp24 without any problems (even when using a massive 256^3 3DLUT, which is much bigger than the 65^3 3DLUT used by Lumagen). But the same Skylake GPU can't run highest quality tone mapping algorithms in real time for 4Kp24.

Now of course I don't know which exact tone mapping algorithms the Pany uses, but I highly doubt it can compete in quality with what Calman would be able to bake into a 3DLUT.
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post #58 of 63 Old 09-10-2016, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
The Panny/Fury combo has to do all the math with its internal processing chips in real time, which is pretty hard. I would expect the quality of the Panny tone mapping to be inferior to something Calman (or any other software creating HDR tone mapping 3DLUTs, e.g. DispCAL can do that, too) can burn into a 3DLUT. After all, Calman can take any time it wants to create the 3DLUT, using the highest quality algorithms. Whether or not the difference in quality will be visible to the naked eye I can't say. Might depend on the content.
I am hoping this gets spec'f to 4000 lumens rather than the meager 3000....

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #59 of 63 Old 09-11-2016, 05:36 PM
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Tone mapping is mostly just a compression of the luminance (brightness) channel. Whether or not some of the specular highlights are preserved depends mostly on the peak luminance of your display, or rather the peak luminance setting you use when creating the tone mapping curve.

Calman will (have to) offer the user the choice which display peak luminance to target with the tone mapping curve. If you pick a high luminance value, you'll get lots of specular highlights, but the overall brightness will be low. If you pick a low luminance value, you'll barely get any specular highlights at all, but the overall brightness will be much higher. You can't have an overall bright image *and* specular highlights at the same time, unless your display has a very high luminance output. So for front projection you'll have to compromise between getting specular highlights and getting an overall bright image. But the choice will be yours.
Might be cool for enthusiasts if they had a PJ stack option. Use the Z1 and its 3,000 lumens for SDR and HDR base level. Then send the HDR spectacular lighting to a 2nd projector. Not necessarily another Z1 - the Lumagen could handle the split and send the 2nd projector what it though was an SDR signal. So you buy the latest & greatest (Z1) for the bulk of your content, but with the Luagen, reuse your old RS500 to handle the peaks for HDR.

Because each projector would be handling a seperate part of the lumenence scale (vs just stacking for 2x the brightness) they would have more bit depth to play with on the display side. It would be additive. So map the full 0 to 255 on the main projector. Then let the HDR peaks spill over into another 0 - 255 on PJ #2 for highlights. Maybe projector #2 can only do 1200 lumens, but that's ok. You would still have a consistent brightness level for all content (3,000 lumens) and then extra 1,200 for HDR peaks. And now that HDR mapping is being done to an effective 0 - 512 range.

 

 

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post #60 of 63 Old 09-11-2016, 11:19 PM
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Here is another eyewitness report of the Z1: http://www.trustedreviews.com/jvc-dla-z1-Review


"Also, during HDR shots containing a very extreme contrast range, such as the sequence in Lucy where Morgan Freeman gives a lecture, the darkest parts of the image look a touch too dark. This makes them appear slightly dominant and a little short on subtle shading detail. Finally, there’s a trace of clipping in the very brightest areas."


I was glad to read that I wasn't the only one who had that impression. This particular performance merits closer examination at CEDIA, IMHO.

"It is only about things that do not interest one that one can give a really unbiased opinion, which is no doubt the reason why an unbiased opinion is always absolutely valueless." Oscar Wilde
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