Atomic Data Storage Could Increase Capacity a Thousandfold - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 30 Old 07-26-2018, 08:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Atomic Data Storage Could Increase Capacity a Thousandfold

The capacity of digital-data storage devices has been steadily growing for decades. But if recent work on atomic data storage by scientists at the University of Alberta in Canada can be commercialized, that capacity would take a quantum leap beyond anything we might imagine today.

Physics PhD student Roshan Achal and his faculty advisor, Robert Wolkow, report that they have succeeded in storing digital 0s and 1s using single hydrogen atoms. If a hydrogen atom is present in a particular location, that represents a 1; if there is no atom, that represents a 0.

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post #2 of 30 Old 07-26-2018, 09:01 PM
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Wink

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Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
The capacity of digital-data storage devices has been steadily growing for decades. But if recent work on atomic data storage by scientists at the University of Alberta in Canada can be commercialized, that capacity would take a quantum leap beyond anything we might imagine today.

Physics PhD student Roshan Achal and his faculty advisor, Robert Wolkow, report that they have succeeded in storing digital 0s and 1s using single hydrogen atoms. If a hydrogen atom is present in a particular location, that represents a 1; if there is no atom, that represents a 0.

Click here for more...
bring back the zip drives
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post #3 of 30 Old 07-27-2018, 08:31 AM
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So when you do a low level format, you're literally nuking the drive?

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post #4 of 30 Old 07-27-2018, 11:29 AM
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I think that you may have the density ratios wrong for Blu-Rays.

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post #5 of 30 Old 07-27-2018, 11:44 AM
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And if you accidentally puncture the drive, it will explode like the Hindenburg.
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post #6 of 30 Old 07-27-2018, 01:16 PM
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Surface density is only really of interest for basic stuff like spinning discs. Solid state memory is simply adding more layers, the latest technology to be released is 96 layers of NAND. In due time that will be thousands of layers.

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post #7 of 30 Old 07-27-2018, 08:21 PM
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And if you accidentally puncture the drive, it will explode like the Hindenburg.
The damn thing is a HYDROGEN BOMB! What happens when there is some heat around it? Whatever happened to DNA storage? At least you couldn't blow IT up!
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post #8 of 30 Old 07-27-2018, 09:12 PM
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seems like there's still some massive barriers to overcome before this is going to affect the average person, but pretty cool nonetheless.

i realize the main benefit to increasing density is allowing more space on a conventional sized disc(which we'll desperately need if we want maintain high quality as resolution gets out of control), but personally, i'm more interested in cheaper storage. i don't really care if i need to use a larger disc, or some form of nand, or even a HDD. i just want to look at a 100gb UHD HDR atmos movie and not worry about it costing $20 just to store it...

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post #9 of 30 Old 07-28-2018, 01:22 AM
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I hope you guys are joking about the storage blowing up or being "nuked". From what I read there's no reference at all to this memory involving fusion or fission of hydrogen atoms.
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post #10 of 30 Old 07-28-2018, 07:29 AM
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This kind of story really has no place on AVS Forums...this isn't even decades from mass production. Now I'm just impressed that hardware manufacturers have achieved such high storage density ratios without previously having to manipulate atoms.
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post #11 of 30 Old 07-29-2018, 05:14 PM
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Thanks for posting the article Scott. Always interested in hearing what is possible, and "S" in AVS does stand for science.

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post #12 of 30 Old 07-30-2018, 03:59 PM
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I think it is relevant to AV. I have 25TB worth of media on my Plex server now, and I don't want to compress and reduce quality, and I keep adding more content each week. Storage is an important part of my theater system.

One of my limitations is drive speed. I have the network to move those files around, but many 5400rpm 8, 10, and 12 TB drives are slower than a gigabit network, let alone a 10gbps network, and it isn't the controller limiting it. Higher density drives have the potential to be faster without spinning the disks faster, so it could leverage faster networks. Trust me, when you have to restore 25TB of data, you want the fastest possible read speeds you can get, and right now the only way to get that is to spin the disk faster.

And higher density information storage equates directly to price per volume of data storage. The last time breakthroughs were made in storage density, price per volume plummeted, and over the course of one year a 1TB drive could be had for 4 times less than the year before. These days there aren't breakthroughs, and when the 10TB drives get replaced by 12TB drives, the price per megabyte doesn't change, they just sell it for more than the smaller drives. I'm paying the same per megabyte today as I did 3 years ago. Prices aren't going to drop until density improves.

Sadly, this tech won't hit consumer markets for at least 10 years, but unless some "interim" breakthrough happens, disk storage has stagnated and something in 10 years is better than 10 more years of insignificant improvement. And the "leaps" in solid stage storage are not exactly revolutionary. Sure, they can add more layers of silicon, but unless they can figure out a better way to do it, we aren't going to suddenly see 10TB solid state drives for $400.
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post #13 of 30 Old 07-30-2018, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkersten View Post
I think it is relevant to AV. I have 25TB worth of media on my Plex server now, and I don't want to compress and reduce quality, and I keep adding more content each week. Storage is an important part of my theater system.

One of my limitations is drive speed. I have the network to move those files around, but many 5400rpm 8, 10, and 12 TB drives are slower than a gigabit network, let alone a 10gbps network, and it isn't the controller limiting it. Higher density drives have the potential to be faster without spinning the disks faster, so it could leverage faster networks. Trust me, when you have to restore 25TB of data, you want the fastest possible read speeds you can get, and right now the only way to get that is to spin the disk faster.

And higher density information storage equates directly to price per volume of data storage. The last time breakthroughs were made in storage density, price per volume plummeted, and over the course of one year a 1TB drive could be had for 4 times less than the year before. These days there aren't breakthroughs, and when the 10TB drives get replaced by 12TB drives, the price per megabyte doesn't change, they just sell it for more than the smaller drives. I'm paying the same per megabyte today as I did 3 years ago. Prices aren't going to drop until density improves.

Sadly, this tech won't hit consumer markets for at least 10 years, but unless some "interim" breakthrough happens, disk storage has stagnated and something in 10 years is better than 10 more years of insignificant improvement. And the "leaps" in solid stage storage are not exactly revolutionary. Sure, they can add more layers of silicon, but unless they can figure out a better way to do it, we aren't going to suddenly see 10TB solid state drives for $400.
i've been there. bought a new 8tb drive to replace a couple external drives(which are even slower since they rely on USB connections) and it's like copy, paste, wait a week...

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post #14 of 30 Old 03-26-2019, 05:06 PM
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I know this was an old post. Nonetheless...

Not everything with large quantities of hydrogen is explosive. E.g., many hydrocarbons, such as are in a piece of paper, are reasonably stable, unless you light them.

Rather than assuming the device would be a hydrogen bomb, nuclear or chemical, it is appropriate to do a scientific literature search:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-05171-y

They aren't talking pure hydrogen - they are talking about hydrogen atoms on silicon surfaces.

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Hydrogen lithography (HL), the removal of hydrogen atoms (depassivation), on hydrogen-passivated silicon surfaces is becoming an important technique in next-generation device designs
However, I think we are still talking about single-layer-surface coding, which limits storage capacity. I imagine many kinds of volumetric coding might conceivably create higher storage densities.

Hope that clarifies the issue, though I admit the article is too technical for me to bother trying to read in full.

I wonder if, realistically speaking, any such technology, even with fairly good error-correction coding, would have a fairly limited lifetime, because it might be gradually degraded by various forms of radiation.

Nonetheless, the projected availability of such technologies introduces interesting privacy concerns - in that virtually everything you do might be recorded and stored. The articlie mentions quantum computing arrays
Quote:
Together, HL and HR unlock an array of new possibilities including the creation of hundreds of precisely placed identical qubits for quantum computation
which might mean that all current codes will be broken - so assume that any encrypted stuff recorded now might be decrypted later.

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post #15 of 30 Old 04-17-2019, 05:15 PM
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I call this vaporware. They always come out with articles saying processors will be 1000x faster in a year or hard drive space will be exponentially larger in 2 years. But that never happens. They don't want to give you that much for cheap. They say these things just to get their company name out there. It would be nice if it ever did happen, but it hasn't happened yet.
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post #16 of 30 Old 05-02-2019, 09:17 PM
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Relevant.
Thanks Scott

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post #17 of 30 Old 05-08-2019, 08:01 AM
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The concept of commercialisation of atomic data storage is absolutely fascinating and opens a lot of opportunities. The fact that Hydrogen atoms are only half a nanometer in diameter, what effectively translates into 1.2 petabits (150 terabytes) per square inch data density may completely revolutionize the market. The most important information is, however, that the atomic data storage offers 1000 times more density than current hard discs and 100 times more than Blu-ray discs. The only two concerns I can identify straightaway are:

1) Technicalities - If we take into account the thermal perturbations encountered at normal temperatures, then we realise that atoms cannot sit still. That may, in turn, put the whole commercialization project in question. The scientists, from Alberta University, still need to produce a safe and stable technology that would enable use outside of lab conditions. Not to mention that they still struggle with finding a reliable material that allows for the detection and manipulation of the atoms.
2) Market - The regular customers may have to meet significant costs incurred as a result of the high-quality components. It may take years if not decades before a regular customer would be able to afford it (given we met the technological requirements).

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post #18 of 30 Old 05-08-2019, 04:28 PM
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It's a fun idea, whether or not it will work.

While the article described it as a "next generation" technology, they also clearly indicated that there was a lot of work to be done, and did not indicate when it would be ready.

With regards to the long term stability, reliability, vulnerability to radiation, etc., there are applications - like sound and video - where some loss of information is acceptable. It's not like commercial copy-protected DVDs are particularly reliable or stable.

In any event, if and when this technology becomes viable, perhaps there will be competing technologies.
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post #19 of 30 Old 05-09-2019, 11:50 PM
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First, let's hope that more universities will pick up the idea. Whether they will do it in a collaborative fashion to work towards a common goal or engage in a competition, it will be good for the customer. The most important aspect of this concept's development is the commercial interest, when big high-tech companies will recognise potential profit in the topic and will offer much funding to find all the right answers.
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post #20 of 30 Old 05-10-2019, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by daniel peterson View Post
The most important aspect of this concept's development is the commercial interest, when big high-tech companies will recognise potential profit in the topic and will offer much funding to find all the right answers.
I know someone who works at one of the biggest semiconductor companies. Based on what that person said, that company tends to go with proven manufacturing technologies, for which there are proven commercially available manufacturing devices, and has little concern with unproven future generation work.

However, in the U.S., the national laboratories, and various other federal agencies, sometimes fund future generation work, sometimes decades ahead of the time the technologies will be cheap enough, and reliable enough, to be commercially viable. And, for a while, they are sometimes willing to fund research that has a high risk of failure, provided they offer a big potential payback in terms of applications the government cares about (like storing large amounts of information compactly, in this case), much more than big commercial companies that have to justify their actions to stockholders. Of course, they tend to like secrecy - for all we know they have already made this technology work.
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post #21 of 30 Old 05-11-2019, 05:27 AM
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You are absolutely right, federal agencies play a great role in the process of discovering new technologies.
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post #22 of 30 Old 05-24-2019, 02:49 AM
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post #23 of 30 Old 06-04-2019, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by dkersten View Post
One of my limitations is drive speed. I have the network to move those files around, but many 5400rpm 8, 10, and 12 TB drives are slower than a gigabit network, let alone a 10gbps network, and it isn't the controller limiting it.
...
Trust me, when you have to restore 25TB of data, you want the fastest possible read speeds you can get, and right now the only way to get that is to spin the disk faster.
True, but how often do you need to move or restore your entire collection? This should be a rare event.

Spinning rust is plenty fast for the normal "daily" tasks needed of media storage: recording, ripping, transcoding, and playback.
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post #24 of 30 Old 06-04-2019, 03:27 PM
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True, but how often do you need to move or restore your entire collection? This should be a rare event.

Spinning rust is plenty fast for the normal "daily" tasks needed of media storage: recording, ripping, transcoding, and playback.
I move 30-50gb files nearly every day, and the difference between 120MB/s and 300-350MB/s is pretty big, which is where the limitation of the partitions of my drive arrays come into play. When you can move data at the same speed over your network as you can from one disk to another, then the speed of the disks needs an upgrade.

As you get into 8k video and beyond, moving terabytes of data on a regular basis will become the standard. A decade ago, a terabyte was an insane amount of storage, and moving it from disk to disk was something you had to plan way ahead to do because it was going to take many hours. Today we can move that terabyte in less than an hour and store it on our phones. You can't tell me that in another decade we won't need more, and if you need more then you will also have devices that can consume it faster, requiring faster data transfer speeds. It won't just be video or pictures, and it surely won't be simple audio files, it will be data about your surroundings, 360 degrees around you in every direction that is constantly being recorded and recalled.

I NEVER imagined I would need more than a few hundred gigs, and the idea of having a 10gbps network in my home was ludicrous. Yet here we are. My 64tb server is almost full, and 10gbps is never fast enough, even for the "small" files.
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Originally Posted by dkersten View Post
I NEVER imagined I would need more than a few hundred gigs, and the idea of having a 10gbps network in my home was ludicrous. Yet here we are. My 64tb server is almost full, and 10gbps is never fast enough, even for the "small" files.
I understand and agree. Faster is better and everything is getting larger. I also never thought I'd be buying 10tb HDDs, but here I am too.

You and I must have very different processes. I rip/record/transcode directly to the network storage. I play back directly from that network storage. So there's no moving large data sets from one drive to another on a frequent basis. For me the only time this happens are rare circumstances like the need to upgrade storage capacity.

But I get that other people have other use cases. I'm not trying to invalidate whatever it is that you are doing.
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post #26 of 30 Old 06-14-2019, 01:55 AM
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My 64tb server is almost full, and 10gbps is never fast enough, even for the "small" files.
I must say, it is quite a collection. If you are using the hard drives, which of them do you find the fastest?


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As you get into 8k video and beyond
I was lucky to see the 16K Sony screen set. For now it's within the domain of daydreaming, because I would not even have enough space to install this monster in my house, but if I ever were to spend my future fortune on something, then the massive 16K Sony Screen would be the centre of my home theater system. Would you mind sharing what screen/TV are you using?
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post #27 of 30 Old 06-14-2019, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Actionable Mango View Post
You and I must have very different processes. I rip/record/transcode directly to the network storage. I play back directly from that network storage. So there's no moving large data sets from one drive to another on a frequent basis. For me the only time this happens are rare circumstances like the need to upgrade storage capacity.
I used to do that but I frequently had issues with the NAS not being able to keep up with a BR Rip over the network, causing the rip to fail. It's frustrating when you wait 15 minutes for a rip and at 14 mins it fails...

There are other reasons, like being able to do post-processing when necessary without having to copy from the NAS to my local drive, and just in general keeping the network congestion down to big bursts rather than long stretches of high utilization. I can rip locally, then rename files, make sure all is in order, test the file out, and then cut and paste before Plex starts trying to identify the file, index it, add chapters, and find all the metadata, both for the file and for the movie or TV show. For me it is just cleaner. To each their own.
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post #28 of 30 Old 06-14-2019, 08:51 AM
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I must say, it is quite a collection. If you are using the hard drives, which of them do you find the fastest?
I prefer WD Red's because they seem to be the most reliable over time. IronWolf pro's are a little faster but have more negative reviews due to failure. WD Red Pro drives in two drive raid arrays works really well. I can have 16tb partitions, get between 280-350 MB/s sustained reads and writes, and while there is no redundancy in this configuration, if one fails I only lose 16tb, not 32 or 64 tb. Since redundancy is not a replacement for backup, I make full copies of all partitions on cheaper, slower drives.

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I was lucky to see the 16K Sony screen set. For now it's within the domain of daydreaming, because I would not even have enough space to install this monster in my house, but if I ever were to spend my future fortune on something, then the massive 16K Sony Screen would be the centre of my home theater system. Would you mind sharing what screen/TV are you using?
16k would be useful in a public cinema on a large format screen, but is completely unnecessary even on the largest home theater screens. However, I wouldn't be surprised to see 16k 65" TV's sitting on shelves in 5-10 years, lol.

I have a 150" wide 2.39:1 screen. I project using a JVC RS2000 projector with a Paladin DCR anamorphic lens. My projector has a native 4096x2160 commercial resolution 4k panel (17:9). When I watch standard scope format movies, the projector will upscale the 3840x1600 movie to the full 4096x2160 panel, and then the lens will compress it horizontally to get the aspect ratio correct. I can honestly say that on a 150" wide screen (162" diagonal), upgrading from 1080p to 4k e-shift, and then from 4k e-shift to true 4k, I saw a significant increase in sharpness and image quality. However, I just don't think that anything beyond even the upscaled scope content would be a noticeable improvement even on my size of screen. Nevertheless, it is coming, as is 8k content.
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post #29 of 30 Old 07-04-2019, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by dkersten View Post
I prefer WD Red's because they seem to be the most reliable over time. IronWolf pro's are a little faster but have more negative reviews due to failure. WD Red Pro drives in two drive raid arrays works really well. I can have 16tb partitions, get between 280-350 MB/s sustained reads and writes, and while there is no redundancy in this configuration, if one fails I only lose 16tb, not 32 or 64 tb. Since redundancy is not a replacement for backup, I make full copies of all partitions on cheaper, slower drives.
I use WD as well. I think Seagate comes as a close 2nd when it comes to price-performance-storage ratio, and with Toshiba as the bronze medalist, that is all for the podium and the 1st league. There are plenty of producers on the market, such as Samsung, Adata, Buffalo but they have always struggled to take over these three giants.
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post #30 of 30 Old 08-13-2019, 10:31 PM
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How to Convert Dust on Binance? (Follow these steps)

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